What is Political and Mod Direction

[Dammit Victor]

I'm not "pretending" anything. I think this whole line of argument is sophistry.

Yeah. All of your unconscious biases and cultural prejudices are just "common sense" and it's only other people who have "ideologies".

And I'm the one peddling bullshit?

Most people who come here instinctively understand the value of a place to to talk about games without dragging in other bullshit. It's not like posting here means I don't spend the rest of my time on the Internet wading through the political open sewers. I'm still hearing everyone's knee-jerk propaganda. I just have a place to go for respite.

You mean, you want to have some place where people don't constantly challenge your worldview and your identity?

What's the exact term for that, when people who aren't just like you ask to have access to spaces like that? Safe... spaces?

Oh, right. That's "political".

Glad we've cleared that up. I was so confused for a moment there.

 

[AsenRG]

As a non-American, one of the perks of the No Politics Rule is not having to hear Americans bicker about their politics everywhere in my life. I think that's a reason this forum has such a strong international base. As others have said, even for people that label themselves as liberal or conservative, the labels mean different things around the world.

I swear, it's like trying to enjoy a meal with an old, bitter couple arguing at the next table.

Yeah, same here...despite also living on a different continent from you (and probably at least 20 years in your past).

I'm not "pretending" anything. I think this whole line of argument is sophistry. Most people who come here instinctively understand the value of a place to to talk about games without dragging in other bullshit. It's not like posting here means I don't spend the rest of my time on the Internet wading through the political open sewers. I'm still hearing everyone's knee-jerk propaganda. I just have a place to go for respite.

That's a good opening for something I wanted to bring up: politics isn't all about government. I also hate the "scene" politics of the RPG community. As someone that like a wide variety of games, it's annoying to have people try and form cliques and identify enemies based on their taste in games.

...does the "no politics" rule cover this, and how do you distinguish that from "having a strong preference"?

I mean, are me, Raleel and Necrozius "the Mythras clique", or are we just people who like Mythras as much as Fenris-77 likes some OSR titles (the Black Hack, I wanted to write, but I might be wrong)?

...and more importantly, is TristramEvans the PHASERIP clique by himself?

Tristram's right, this is a massive Overton shift on the board, the kind of thing I've been telling you guys to watch out for ever since the No Politics rule went into place. That rule keeps getting hit again, and again, and again, and now calling a game Inherently Racist is OK and "Gee, doesn't Kwan have a point?"

Alas, but this thread serves mostly to prove you right.

 

[CRKrueger]

Yeah, if we get to a point where we are cracking down on banned phrases and the like, I am done here. That just lead to the noob trap at rpg.net where someone walks in, uses a word and gets a ban and a lecture.

I'm fine breaking up fights, but I don't want to form a Precrime Division to stop them before they start.

So it's OK to use terms like "Woke" or "SJW" now? I seem to remember those being said to have a built in political context and argument to them.

You know, like a specific setting being branded "Inherently Racist".

 

[Baulderstone]

The problem with the OA thread is that its talking about what people elsewhere on the Internet are saying and not about what people here think.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Great, but according to the "everything is political" BS every debate is political as well, so we could as well close the forum.

Well, yeah. But we are not in fact going to moderate the board with the broad definition that politics is everything (or more specifically all human interaction which is what the academic argument actually is before it gets bastardised). We are also not going to moderate it on the overly narrow definition that it only applies to acts of government. Both of those are debates for social scientists, not something that really matters here.

Second, I'm not sure that banning the discussion of any and all products mired in controversy is desirable. I mean, the more Twitter is twittering, the less of a playing field would remain for debate here... and why should we leave politics to define what we can and cannot discuss? By the power of SWO, that sure sounds like the opposite of the purpose of the "no politics" rule!

Well, yes. It entirely depends on what you see as the purpose of the "no politics" rule. But if you want to avoid politics, the most effective way would be to absolutely avoid anything with any kind of political controversy. Whether that's a tradeoff worth having is another question and one different people are going to have different views on?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Yeah, not calling Tolkien a racist because of his "Jewish" Dwarves, or not branding a game or setting Inherently "ist". That's walking on eggshells?

We have, on a "No Politics" board, right now, a discussion going on as to whether Kwan's criticisms are valid. What's next, an analysis of the Tetsubo affair? An actual, open discussion of the comic book industry?

Tristram's right, this is a massive Overton shift on the board, the kind of thing I've been telling you guys to watch out for ever since the No Politics rule went into place. That rule keeps getting hit again, and again, and again, and now calling a game Inherently Racist is OK and "Gee, doesn't Kwan have a point?"

So I think your view would be that OA/Kwan would be better off as banned topics?

See, that I think it solid, because it's internally consistent. Stop discussion of anything with a substantial amount of political debate surrounding it from games to podcasters and boom, issue largely solved. I have less time for people who seem to think that's possible without paying a cost, but I think you recognise that cost is there.

 

[Fenris-77]

and now calling a game Inherently Racist is OK and "Gee, doesn't Kwan have a point?"

I don't know what thread you're reading, but this has been specifically mentioned as 'not ok' by more than one Mod/admin in this very thread. The barbarians aren't at the gates here and no one needs to sound the trumpets and cry the alarm.

 

[Raleel]

This is in line with the predictions of Nobby's Iron Law of Nonprofits™: The bitchiness of the politics is inversely proportional to what's actually at stake.

As I’ve heard it stated, “they fight so hard because there is so little to fight for”. Feels like a good many rpg fights, actually.

One flaw of the Mythras system is that there is no way to do more than max damage of the weapon. It makes critical hits rely too much on bleed.

Instant report!

Edit: As for the OA thread, I just don’t think it’s very interesting and decided not to engage. I genuinely find it more interesting when CRK tells me I’m doing Shadowrun wrong. I also think the thread really doesn’t have a place. It’s asking for it, but I also think it’s an important thing to discuss, and can ignore it. I feel like I can have racism in rpg discussions other places, and it’s not likely to be on the internet.

 

[Fenris-77]

The rhetoric in this thread is getting kind of shrill IMO. The Pub works because it's chill and because of mutual respect, and not so much crying havoc. IDK, YMMV I guess. I'm not pointing fingers, just counselling a more relaxed approach.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Yeah, not calling Tolkien a racist because of his "Jewish" Dwarves, or not branding a game or setting Inherently "ist". That's walking on eggshells?

I mean Venger is allowed to promote an explicitly political product on here and tells people who want to know about the controversy to look at his blog instead. I don't personally have any issue with that as long as the full controversy isn't posted here, but yeah, this is at least as political as anything you mention and is the kind of thing a clampdown would need to cover.

 

[CRKrueger]

I don't know what thread you're reading, but this has been specifically mentioned as 'not ok' by more than one Mod/admin in this very thread. The barbarians aren't at the gates here and no one needs to sound the trumpets and cry the alarm.

Actually we're getting mixed messages from the mods on the "Inherently Racist" thing.

 

[AsenRG]

I don't know what thread you're reading, but this has been specifically mentioned as 'not ok' by more than one Mod/admin in this very thread. The barbarians aren't at the gates here and no one needs to sound the trumpets and cry the alarm.

Unrelated to the thread, but I read that as "sound the strumpets", which, if memory serves, would have kinda different meaning...
I still like my version better, too!

 

[Baulderstone]

Yeah, same here...despite also living on a different continent from you (and probably at least 20 years in your past).




...does the "no politics" rule cover this, and how do you distinguish that from "having a strong preference"?

I mean, are me, Raleel and Necrozius "the Mythras clique", or are we just people who like Mythras as much as Fenris-77 likes some OSR titles (the Black Hack, I wanted to write, but I might be wrong)?

...and more importantly, is TristramEvans the PHASERIP clique by himself?

System preference is fine. You can even dislike games. It's when you get into arguments between the OSR and The Forge and the like, where you are arguing about abstract ideologies rather than games themselves that it becomes a serious problem.

So it's OK to use terms like "Woke" or "SJW" now? I seem to remember those being said to have a built in political context and argument to them.

You know, like a specific setting being branded "Inherently Racist".

You've gotten away with breaking the No Politics rule here more than anybody, so you are the last person that should be complaining about how the window has shifted. The more bullshit we let you get away with, the more bullshit we allow your "enemies" to get away with.

 

[Fenris-77]

Actually we're getting mixed messages from the mods on the "Inherently Racist" thing.

I'm very specifically not going to have an argument within an argument about this with you, no offense. Personally, I think you're conflating some of the opinions of the mod team as posters with something more official. They can speak for themselves though.

 

[Nobby-W]

Unrelated to the thread, but I read that as "sound the strumpets", which, if memory serves, would have kinda different meaning...
I still like my version better, too!

And, AsenRG knows what sounding is now, if I recall correctly.

 

[Torque2100]

That's a good opening for something I wanted to bring up: politics isn't all about government. I also hate the "scene" politics of the RPG community. As someone that like a wide variety of games, it's annoying to have people try and form cliques and identify enemies based on their taste in games.

Yeah, if we get to a point where we are cracking down on banned phrases and the like, I am done here. That just lead to the noob trap at rpg.net where someone walks in, uses a word and gets a ban and a lecture.

I'm fine breaking up fights, but I don't want to form a Precrime Division to stop them before they start.

Absolutely agreed on both points. I think the best approach is for the Mods to only step in if a discussion gets heated.

 

[Endless Flight]

I would never ban discussion on Oriental Adventures. I might as well close up the forum if we have to do something like that.

 

[Baulderstone]

Yeah. All of your unconscious biases and cultural prejudices are just "common sense" and it's only other people who have "ideologies".

And I'm the one peddling bullshit?



You mean, you want to have some place where people don't constantly challenge your worldview and your identity?

What's the exact term for that, when people who aren't just like you ask to have access to spaces like that? Safe... spaces?

Oh, right. That's "political".

Glad we've cleared that up. I was so confused for a moment there.

I'm glad you know me so well.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Actually we're getting mixed messages from the mods on the "Inherently Racist" thing.

Just to clarify, there has been no official ruling on that yet. It isn't mixed messages so much as that it's the kind of question this thread is set up to answer and the mods are giving their opinions like everyone else.

Mine remains what I said at the start.

Calling RPGs (outside the obvious outliers) racist is a no.

Calling settings racist is fine.

Calling history racist is even more fine.

If you want something more specific, I'd suggest that people should only make statements in these areas that the man on the Clapham Omnibus would agree with. We don't need to take into account people who think playing in a bad setting makes you a bad person, nor do we need to take into account those who think being told a setting is bad means they're being de facto accused of agreeing with that badness by playing in that setting. Both are too far outside the realm of reasonable opinion to be worth worrying about.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I would never ban discussion on Oriental Adventures. I might as well close up the forum if we have to do something like that.

Which is my preference, but goes back to the point made earlier that if a post is reasonable responding to it is as well.

"You can discuss OA but only uncritically" is where no politics actually would become political, rather than someone talking about their favourite brand of toothpaste or whatever.

 

[CRKrueger]

I mean Venger is allowed to promote an explicitly political product on here and tells people who want to know about the controversy to look at his blog instead. I don't personally have any issue with that as long as the full controversy isn't posted here, but yeah, this is at least as political as anything you mention and is the kind of thing a clampdown would need to cover.

From what I understand, Syma'arian wasn't a political product, it was pulled for a cover showing human sacrifice of a baby or something. But yeah, I would have definitely told him to talk about his product, but cut the editorializing.

 

[Baragei]

The funny thing here is that the mods insist on being able to define politics, recognize it and take appropriate action when it happens out of place.
The not so funny thing is that they aren't.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

From what I understand, Syma'arian wasn't a political product, it was pulled for a cover showing human sacrifice of a baby or something. But yeah, I would have definitely told him to talk about his product, but cut the editorializing.

Nah, I obviously don't want to quote large parts of it, but it's explicitly inspired by incredibly controversial current culture war issues and he says so in the tex.

 

[Baulderstone]

The funny thing here is that the mods insist on being able to define politics, recognize it and take appropriate action when it happens out of place.
The not so funny thing is that they aren't.

No we don't. I don't think we could more clear that we want to avoid having strict definitions on this kind of thing, and we wouldn't be having this thread with you guys if we entirely knew what we were doing.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

One reason I think we do let stuff slide is that generally speaking we moderate from a position of assuming good faith where most issues are mistakes rather than intentional fuckery. (Especially the other mods. It's fair to say I'm the most cynical I think).

 

[Stumpydave]

Yeah. All of your unconscious biases and cultural prejudices are just "common sense" and it's only other people who have "ideologies".

And I'm the one peddling bullshit?



You mean, you want to have some place where people don't constantly challenge your worldview and your identity?

What's the exact term for that, when people who aren't just like you ask to have access to spaces like that? Safe... spaces?

Oh, right. That's "political".

Glad we've cleared that up. I was so confused for a moment there.

And I'm back at TBP
<Tiptoes through the eggshells>

 

[Endless Flight]

The funny thing here is that the mods insist on being able to define politics, recognize it and take appropriate action when it happens out of place.
The not so funny thing is that they aren't.

 

[David Johansen]

the more bullshit we allow your "enemies" to get away with.

Sir, I believe you have won the thread! There's what the rule should be! NO ENEMIES!

 

[CRKrueger]

So I think your view would be that OA/Kwan would be better off as banned topics?

See, that I think it solid, because it's internally consistent. Stop discussion of anything with a substantial amount of political debate surrounding it from games to podcasters and boom, issue largely solved. I have less time for people who seem to think that's possible without paying a cost, but I think you recognise that cost is there.

Not Oriental Adventures as a game, or whether the mechanics are any good, but anything about the disclaimer, yeah. I'd love for people to examine Kwan, I think it would discredit him more than anything I could say, but this isn't the place.

Is there a cost? Yeah, some people will shy away from posting something perfectly fine because they don't want to be political. Some people will want to post in Moderation Criticisms. Some will ragequit the second their orthodoxy isn't accepted. Some may take a break because the No Politics discussion got heated. There will be some downsides.

It's all worth it if what you want is to keep this place different from Purple and Brown, where you can talk about things divorced from the US Culture War, and I'm telling you, a game being Inherently any kind of -ist, is pure Culture War.

Cutting back the Roman Canine Superiority in Palladium Fantasy is not a Culture War statement.
Cutting back the inherent racism in Palladium Fantasy is. Everything Tristram said about that was right on the money.

 

[CRKrueger]

Nah, I obviously don't want to quote large parts of it, but it's explicitly inspired by incredibly controversial current culture war issues and he says so in the tex.

If he can't talk about the module without tying it to current hot button political culture war topics, then it doesn't belong here. He or anyone else wants to talk about it as an adventure, does it work, etc, that's, different. That one came and went without me seeing it.

 

[Dammit Victor]

I'm letting myself get carried away here. Apologies to anyone who saw my last post-- think I'm going to take a break for a bit.

 

[Endless Flight]

Dammit Viktor You don’t seem like you really want to be here. I always thought you liked the Pub and you make it seem like the worst RPG forum out there. I’m legitimately confused. Weren’t you on record before saying that other forums were cesspools because of politics? I’m confused.

 

[CRKrueger]

You've gotten away with breaking the No Politics rule here more than anybody, so you are the last person that should be complaining about how the window has shifted. The more bullshit we let you get away with, the more bullshit we allow your "enemies" to get away with.

That wasn't really an answer to my question.
About your other point, how exactly have I shifted the Overton Window here? To the Right, Left?

 

[Stumpydave]

Christ! We can't even talk about talking about politics without resorting to flick-knives.

Howzabout we delete_thred_pls and pretend this never happened.

 

[David Johansen]

One thing I think people should bear in mind here is the amount of political influence rpgs have in the wider world: less than none.

In the balance between art influencing society and society influencing art, rpgs are on the low end of the scale. Partially it's because they're niche but more than that, because they're a small venue interaction in practice. A movie reaches millions, an rpg is lucky to reach thousands, and a DM is hard pressed to reach a dozen.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Howzabout we delete_thred_pls and pretend this never happened.

Yes, I think it's time to make a few things disappear for the sake of the site's consistency.

 

[DeadBob]

Personally, I find that use of the Ignore function goes a long way towards making many sites more enjoyable.

I'll leave the question of politics to the Mod Team (sorry folks, you have my sympathy), but I recommend some off the rest of you to familiarize yourselves with the option I mentioned.

 

[zanshin]

View attachment 45751

I thought we already had that here

 

[Gringnr]

edit beaten

 

[CRKrueger]

He explicitly mentions a current political event in the introduction.

Yeah, Black Leaf mentioned that.
Edit: Oh FFS, of course Venger would do that.