Mod+ Mythic Polynesia

[TristramEvans]

Clothing=/=culture. And if you insist on that line of thought, I'm pretty sure most Maori today don't wear their traditional dresses, nor do they go head-hunting, or make raids on their enemies, and so on...so the current Polynesian people are just as removed from the attributes of their culture as we are. Because you know, 21st century.

Also, it seems you ignored, deliberately or not, that cultures evolve, but it was in my post.

Yes cultures (can) evolve, meaning they change, so a culture that has evolved is no longer the culture it was, to one extent or another. The degree that they evolved determines their relevance to a discussion of a prior culture in a historical context. The culture of the UK evolved from the culture that existed in the middle ages. It is not that culture anymore. Likewise, asking the average citizen of Athens in the modern day (who is neither a historian nor anthropologist) about what life was like in ancient Greece would be pretty much as effective as interrogating a chicken as to what it was like to be a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

However, note the addendum (can) evolve. I addressed this earlier when comparing the indigenous experiences of Maori to Native Americans. The degree to which a culture evolves (changes) is directly parallel to how much it holds onto the same traditions and beliefs that shaped the culture in the first place. For many Native American tribes living on reservations, the evolution of their beliefs, religious practices, and art has essentially ceased in a deliberate attempt to hold onto the cultures that they perceive (I would say undeniably correctly) as threatened. The same, from what little I understand of the subject, seems to be largely true of the Maori regarding certain belief systems. In both cases it is the distortion, alteration, or discarding of traditional beliefs and aspects of life which would normally be part and parcel of cultural evolution, due to what they see as pernicious outside influences that is rejected to the point that the evolution of, say, British cultures from the Renaissance (largely instigated by the introduction of Middle Eastern culture & sciences as a direct effect of the Crusades) along the path into modern Britain is no longer analogous.

Yes, you did. That's part of the reason why I pointed out that standards when covering new ground have to be more relaxed.

I don't see any reason to think so. Insufficient research or misinformation remain viable critiques regardless of the subject matter. Something being "new ground" to RPGs, does not mean the topic is new, nor any aspect of it that is being criticized. The only thing unique to RPGs that the defense of "new ground" applies to is actual rules, in which case, yeah, I'd cut a game some slack for being one of the first to innovate surfing rules.

 

[CRKrueger]

Well, Mythic Babylon and Mythic Rome have been praised by actual scholars as to their research and accuracy. For that matter Shirley’s own Mythic Constantinople, despite fantasy content, has also been praised for its extreme detail.

It’s a lot harder to get that detail when the historical people you’re researching had no written language, are spread over thousands of miles and hundreds of languages with, in some cases, populations in severe decline. That means if you want to avoid Twitstorms like this, you would need to stop reading and start talking.

I don’t think anyone really thinks Shirley should have spent more in travel expenses researching this book than the entire Mythras line has made.

I don’t think anyone really expected Mythic Polynesia to have dug into all the sub-populations of historical Samoans and what their specific differences were going from 1500–1700, and then did the same for Tahitians, Māori, Hawai’ians, Fijians, Tongans, Tuvalu, etc. etc. etc.

Remember Spears of the Dawn? Any time he wants, Liam can grab the free layout templates Kevin Crawford hands out to start on his own “Mythic Māori”.

 

[TristramEvans]

*mod hat on*

Just a warning, as I said previously (granted from the perspective of a poster), the discussion or debate on what constitutes the harmful degree or effects of perpetuating false stereotypes of a people in an RPG product is beyond the scope of this forum, and this is something everyone can decide for themselves based on their moral and ideological perspectives. This crosses the line into Political discourse.

 

[Raleel]

 

[TristramEvans]

(temp close to dissuade crossposting. Be back in a bit)

 

[TristramEvans]

OK, this thread is back online with the latest tangent removed
(Please note, if your post was removed, it doesn't necessarily imply you did or said anything wrong, it was just part of a larger discussion veering into rough waters)

To reiterate, going forward:

1) this is a Mod+ thread so for any unaware, that means it is subject to a higher standard of moderation, largely because it veers very close to Political discussions, and we don't want to cross over that line. To be clear, however, it is not the position of the Mods that discussing the possible errors or inaccuracies about certain cultures in an RPG product is political.

2) As to what crosses the line into political, please refer to my post above: debates on what constitutes the effects of (or harm from) perpetuating cultural or racial stereotypes in media - this is something everyone can decide for themselves based on their own moral and ideological perspectives. Likewise, discussions of racial-based power dynamics in society, particularly in regards to assigning legitimacy or validity to any person or their opinions/arguments based on their position on a power-based hierarchy. We are not telling you what to believe, simply stating such discussions, deeply rooted in modern day political ideologies, are beyond the scope of this forum.

3) What is known to be factual is that a) the book does contain a chart of cultural stereotypes that assigns bonuses and penalties (as cited by Raleel , above), something that is atypical of the Mythic Earth line, and b) that a member of one of the cultures featured in the book has claimed that it perpetuates negative stereotypes associated with past bigotry and oppression. These claims are from a social media post, not from an academic paper and so are not supported by citations, so whether you believe them or not, disagree with them or not, is your personal choice. If anyone wishes to refute or affirm these claims, whether from referenced sources or the perspective of someone who is a part of/has intimate knowledge of one of the cultures represented, feel free to do so (which goes for any of the claims regarding the accuracy of information in the book).

 

[CRKrueger]

View attachment 52840

Having Stat differences for human races is certainly frowned on these days because of politics, but in all but one case, there's a bonus. The variances are far more severe in the earlier system RQ6 Vikings, where various flavors of European had Physical stat differences.

I think the Moriori would have the most to bitch about if anyone (I guess maybe someday a Moriori will read the table and let us know). But since this book isn't talking about Moriori today, but Moriori back when a couple tribes of Maori invaded, enslaved them, and killed their population down to 200 people, I'm not sure that's even controversial.

Reading Mythic Britain, I kind of doubt a modern Welshman is going to claim religious offense because the book claims the Kernow Dumnonii have a 70% chance of being pagan.

Liam's Maori, so that would put him in the Aotearoa (New Zealand) culture. Based on the geography of Polynesia, they are certainly on the world's edge (if your world is Polynesia). Are they hardy survivalists? They're the youngest of the Polynesian cultures, especially several hundred years ago, so their support networks and infrastructure would be less than one of the major powers. Not really seeing the horror here.

It's a well-known fact Hawai'i had a particularly rigid implementation of the Kapu Caste system until it was broken down.
Going to war in the seasons that aren't known for storms...everyone did that. The large battle that unified Hawaii took place in the dry season. Bloodthirsty might be a bit much, but then again, when the season for Viking came around, the Vikings became pretty bloodthirsty too. The Lakota might be offended at being called bloodthirsty, but ask the Pawnee and the Cheyenne, they might have a different viewpoint.

Passions...Cultural passions are always just a broad brush. Every single Celt felt strongly enough to have Passion to Lord and Passion to Community? I kind of doubt it, but since we're making a broad generalization about an ancient culture, it works and fits the tales and literature.

I'm sure the term "Enigma" for Rapa Nui fires people up, but if there's a single word used by the rest of the world to describe the island and the statues, Enigma is it. Control the Dead - bad phrase probably, but the statues inhabited by the souls of ancestors and being a source of mana by shamans and kings is one of the current theories.

The people of Hiva I know nothing about, so I don't know whether that is a fair cop or not.

• You could argue that Stat bonuses for humans don't belong in a game...ok, that's your opinion.
• You could argue that the cultures aren't described enough...with the sheer size of the geographical area and number of cultures and languages, I don't know how they possibly could be.
• You could argue that Cultural Passions are weird...never been a real fan of Passions, so I'd agree, but every Mythic Book has them.
• There's absolutely nothing here unique that any historical people in RPG books haven't had included in their description.

The real question is, is what is written here actually wrong?

What it comes down to in the end is, can someone not of a particular culture really understand the mindset of their own ancestor's culture a thousand years back, let alone a different culture? Isn't every RPG culture whether historical or not just a shorthand that gives players enough touchstones to roleplay a character?

Does anyone expect any RPG book to give someone real understanding of a culture?

Bottom line, if this was Mythic Vikings and some Swedish scholar living on Gotland was tweeting about how the Gutes were portrayed, no one's having this conversation. Well, maybe Séadna.

 

[Raleel]

The real question is, is what is written here actually wrong?

Did you read the whole TBP thread? Did you read the whole twitter thread? Because he breaks down some of it. But you are missing the good argument, the one that actually says more about it. I think you feel it. I think Rob does too. The argument isn't his credentials.

 

[Séadna]

Bottom line, if this was Mythic Vikings and some Swedish scholar living on Gotland was tweeting about how the Gutes were portrayed, no one's having this conversation. Well, maybe Séadna.

That made me laugh, because not literally me, but yeah I once saw a conversation sort of like that. If you watch Jackson Crawford on youtube his videos sometimes get a "Well actually excuse me but Gotland..."

 

[TristramEvans]

Crawford is one of my favourte youtubers. Great info in cozy little heartwarming chunks

 

[Endless Flight]

Having Stat differences for human races is certainly frowned on these days because of politics, but in all but one case, there's a bonus.

I don’t think giving bonuses makes it acceptable practice.

 

[TristramEvans]

I also don't think it's a political position to be against stereotyping groups of humans. Or, at least, it's ostensibly a position that is shared (or at least parroted) by both sides of the political divide.

We've stated multiple times that we don't consider racism, sexism, or any other -ism as "legitimate political positions".

 

[Toadmaster]

I don’t think giving bonuses makes it acceptable practice.

While I don't think racial / gender bonuses are inherently evil as some do, I do think that they are an archaic hold over and ill advised these days. I am surprised to see such a table in a game particularly one that was almost certainly going to stir up a hornets nest no matter how well researched.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

While I don't think racial / gender bonuses are inherently evil as some do, I do think that they are an archaic hold over and ill advised these days. I am surprised to see such a table in a game particularly one that was almost certainly going to stir up a hornets nest no matter how well researched.

That depends on the game. In a fantasy game such as D&D, I think racial attribute bonuses are ok. Never liked gender-based bonuses myself though, no matter the setting.
In a setting such as MP, I don't like it though. It also surprises me that TDM didn't realise, that having such a thing in their game could create a shitstorm.

 

[Toadmaster]

That depends on the game. In a fantasy game such as D&D, I think racial attribute bonuses are ok. Never liked gender-based bonuses myself though, no matter the setting.
In a setting such as MP, I don't like it though. It also surprises me that TDM didn't realise, that having such a thing in their game could create a shitstorm.

Sure for fantasy races, dwarves, elves, orcs etc. Even in fantasy it is not a great idea for dividing up humans, far too easy for people to read their own biases into it.

 

[TristramEvans]

While I don't think racial / gender bonuses are inherently evil as some do, I do think that they are an archaic hold over and ill advised these days. I am surprised to see such a table in a game particularly one that was almost certainly going to stir up a hornets nest no matter how well researched.

I don't think it's "inherently evil" - I've stated many times I don't believe for a second there was any malicious or untoward intentions on the part of the Mythic Polynesia author, anymore than I think the various Fantasy Heartbreakers from the 70s to the 90s that included attribute mods based on gender were ever intentionally "evil" (not counting the obvious exceptions) - I find that term far too extreme for the topic overall.

I just think it's a mis-step and misjudgment that it's completely fair to criticize. Hell, even Gary was taken to task over it in the letter pages of A&E in the 80s.

 

[CRKrueger]

I also don't think it's a political position to be against stereotyping groups of humans. Or, at least, it's ostensibly a position that is shared (or at least parroted) by both sides of the political divide.

We've stated multiple times that we don't consider racism, sexism, or any other -ism as "legitimate political positions".

Well Maori getting +1 Con and Hawai'ians +1 Str isn't exactly Stormfront. It's pretty tough to claim racism based on a bonus.

 

[Endless Flight]

When you give one ancestry a bonus in an attribute you are basically saying the others aren’t as good in that particular attribute.

 

[TristramEvans]

Well Maori getting +1 Con and Hawai'ians +1 Str isn't exactly Stormfront. It's pretty tough to claim racism based on a bonus.

I'm not saying it's Stormfront. I'm saying it's a bad idea, and the reason it's a bad idea is because racism.

 

[CRKrueger]

When you give one ancestry a bonus in an attribute you are basically saying the others aren’t as good in that particular attribute.

You're giving some variation, and a very minor benefit. A +1 in Mythras is miniscule compared to the difference between say, Kenyan and Samoan marathon runners.

 

[Gringnr]

Well Maori getting +1 Con and Hawai'ians +1 Str isn't exactly Stormfront. It's pretty tough to claim racism based on a bonus.

No, it's not. Ask any Asian woman who rolls her eyes every time a white guy tells her how "beautiful Asian women are." The fact of the matter is, it's an erasure of individuality, whether it's couched in so-called "positive" descriptors or not. It's like saying all black dudes are good at sports. Whether you find it to be complimentary or not, it's rooted in a reductive stereotype.

 

[CRKrueger]

I'm not saying it's Stormfront. I'm saying it's a bad idea, and the reason it's a bad idea is because racism.

So if someone decided to give a +1 Siz bonus to Norwegians that would be racism?

 

[Raleel]

You're giving some variation, and a very minor benefit. A +1 in Mythras is miniscule compared to the difference between say, Kenyan and Samoan marathon runners.

I think, racism argument aside, it's inconsistent with the other products. They didn't do this for the tribes in mythic britain for example. They got different languages and perhaps some different skills trained in the culture. more variation with language and culture in mythic constantinople. It seems odd to me.

By no means unprecedented in RPGs, but "minor benefit" actually goes against rule 1 of the Petersen rules of good gaming in the back of the core rulebook. the stereotype column goes against point 11 of the Mythras Gateway license.

So if someone decided to give a +1 Siz bonus to Norwegians that would be racism?

I think there are better ways to do that within a culture. There are plenty of short Norwegians and Dutch folks. It's a detail that is too small to bother with, and invites a problem. Better to put training for particular skills in the culture to reflect these changes, like Boating or Skiing in Norweigian culture. Doesn't mean you can't learn it, doesn't mean you can't be as good as someone else with work, but you didn't grow up with it so you don't get it out of the gate.

 

[Simlasa]

I don’t think giving bonuses makes it acceptable practice.

I'm not all that fond of that sort of thing, but I wouldn't complain if someone stating up folks here in the U.S. gave farmers better average STR and CON than my suburban folks. Or higher average EDU to people from NYC than in Las Vegas. Someone who uses a shovel/axe/oar every day is likely going to be stronger than me. Nothing to do with 'race', just lifestyle.

 

[CRKrueger]

No, it's not. Ask any Asian woman who rolls her eyes every time a white guy tells her how "beautiful Asian women are." The fact of the matter is, it's an erasure of individuality, whether it's couched in so-called "positive" descriptors or not. It's like saying all black dudes are good at sports. Whether you find it to be complimentary or not, it's rooted in a reductive stereotype.

27 out of the last 30 Boston Marathons were won by someone from Kenya or Ethiopia. Giving them some form of bonus to long distance running (if they took the skill) would be erasing their individuality, huh? I guess Icelanders could go on walkabout in the Outback without clothes and have no issues?

Most games don't worry about things like this, it's just too granular. Claiming that someone including something that in a game is racist though, is ludicrous.

 

[Raleel]

Giving them some form of bonus to long distance running (if they took the skill) would be erasing their individuality, huh?

like endurance training at the cultural level, like all of the other supplements?

Most games don't worry about things like this, it's just too granular. Claiming that someone including something that in a game is racist though, is ludicrous.

my point exactly. it brings little benefit, it breaks a standard set by the product, and invites pages upon pages of bitching about racism.

 

[Gringnr]

I'm not saying it's Stormfront. I'm saying it's a bad idea, and the reason it's a bad idea is because racism.

"I'm not wearing a swastika or saying slurs so I can't possibly be racist" is the biggest crock lol.

27 out of the last 30 Boston Marathons were won by someone from Kenya or Ethiopia. Giving them some form of bonus to long distance running (if they took the skill) would be erasing their individuality, huh? I guess Icelanders could go on walkabout in the Outback without clothes and have no issues?

Most games don't worry about things like this, it's just too granular. Claiming that someone including something that in a game is racist though, is ludicrous.

Way to completely ignore the fact that a vanishingly small percentage of Kenyans and Ethiopians run in The Boston Marathon. Again, reductive.

 

[CRKrueger]

I think, racism argument aside, it's inconsistent with the other products. They didn't do this for the tribes in mythic britain for example. They got different languages and perhaps some different skills trained in the culture. more variation with language and culture in mythic constantinople. It seems odd to me.

By no means unprecedented in RPGs, but "minor benefit" actually goes against rule 1 of the Petersen rules of good gaming in the back of the core rulebook. the stereotype column goes against point 11 of the Mythras Gateway license.


I think there are better ways to do that within a culture. There are plenty of short Norwegians and Dutch folks. It's a detail that is too small to bother with, and invites a problem. Better to put training for particular skills in the culture to reflect these changes, like Boating or Skiing in Norweigian culture. Doesn't mean you can't learn it, doesn't mean you can't be as good as someone else with work, but you didn't grow up with it so you don't get it out of the gate.

That's how I do things if I want to add in some bonus. Who cares where it comes from? Cimmerians are supposed to be incredible climbers, is it genetic, is it cultural, is it the Will of Crom? Whatever.

 

[Gringnr]

Americans have won the most Boston Marathons, why not give them the Speed bonus, too?

 

[Raleel]

That's how I do things if I want to add in some bonus. Who cares where it comes from? Cimmerians are supposed to be incredible climbers, is it genetic, is it cultural, is it the Will of Crom? Whatever.

it matters because it's a part of the being, essentially immutable, or at least viewed as such. Even the core rules are pretty tight about increasing attributes.

 

[TristramEvans]

So if someone decided to give a +1 Siz bonus to Norwegians that would be racism?

It would be inaccurate

 

[The Mad Hatter]

27 out of the last 30 Boston Marathons were won by someone from Kenya or Ethiopia.

Well, there's an actual cultural or rather economic reason for that though. Mainly, that running is a cheap sport to participate in on a professional level.

 

[CRKrueger]

It would be inaccurate

Why? Norwegians on average are taller. Norwegian men's average height is 7 inches taller than Phillipine men's height.
Does that mean every Norwegian is going to be taller than every Pinoy? No, of course not, but if you gave them +1 Siz, on average they'd be taller, you know...like in life.

You could argue just about anything except that it's inaccurate.

 

[TristramEvans]

Yeah, we're not doing the fantasy species are human races schtick.

 

[Gringnr]

Yeah, we're not doing the fantasy species are human races schtick.

For the record, I didn't. I think it's only fair that I get to state that.

 

[TristramEvans]

Why? Norwegians on average are taller.

well one, Siz isn't just height, so the argument is moot.

But otherwise, your argument just reinforces what the objection is: treating individuals as representatives of assumptions about a group.

 

[CRKrueger]

Which racist stereotype was I advocating for exactly? +1 Siz for Norwegians?

Personally, I think an author would have to be nuts these days to give human races physical stat differences

The idea that him doing so was racist however, is laughable, especially if that falls under the "actually isn't political" description.

 

[TristramEvans]

For the record, I didn't. I think it's only fair that I get to state that.

I know you didn't start it, I'm just excising any part of the convo going there

 

[CRKrueger]

well one, Siz isn't just height, so the argument is moot.

But otherwise, your argument just reinforces what the objection is: treating individuals as representatives of assumptions about a group.

So...there shouldn't be any cultural differences either then, right? No skill differences by cultural type, because that's treating an individual as representing an assumption about a group.

 

[Gringnr]

Which racist stereotype was I advocating for exactly? +1 Siz for Norwegians?

At a minimum, yes.