Mod+ Mythic Polynesia

[CRKrueger]

Americans have won the most Boston Marathons, why not give them the Speed bonus, too?

Americans won the Boston Marathons when no one else competed. Silly argument, and you know it.

 

[Endless Flight]

Personally, I think an author would have to be nuts these days to give human races physical stat differences

The idea that him doing so was racist however, is laughable, especially if that falls under the "actually isn't political" description.

I don’t think anyone here is accusing TDM of being racists. What they should do is remove the table at the very least because it’s a mistake.

 

[Gringnr]

Americans won the Boston Marathons when no one else competed. Silly argument, and you know it.

Not really, as it is still a small minority of Kenyans and Ethiopians overall who participate. Why are you insisting that a small minority of people from Kenya and Ethiopia, competing in America, is representative of these peoples as a whole?

 

[TristramEvans]

So...there shouldn't be any cultural differences either then, right?

That seems like a giant leap in logic

 

[Gringnr]

That seems like a giant leap in logic

Exactly. There's a lot of daylight between these two things, but trying to force people into binary decisions over things that are clearly nuanced seems to be part of the playbook.

 

[Gringnr]

The stereotype about Norwegians' height MAY be rooted in physical reality, but it's still not true of all Norwegians. And if you must include such a thing in your game, perhaps there's a better way to handle it than "Everyone in Norway is taller than average I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!"

 

[CRKrueger]

Not really, as it is still a small minority of Kenyans and Ethiopians overall who participate. Why are you insisting that a small minority of people from Kenya and Ethiopia, competing in America, is representative of these peoples as a whole?

What I'm insisting is, since Kenyans and Ethiopians win 70-80% of all long distance running contests, giving a Kenyan or Ethiopian character a bonus to Long-Distance Running if they took the skill just might not be Literally Hitler.

 

[Gringnr]

What I'm insisting is, since Kenyans and Ethiopians win 70-80% of all long distance running contests, giving a Kenyan or Ethiopian character a bonus to Long-Distance Running if they took the skill just might not be Literally Hitler.

No one is saying that it is, but hyperbole seems to be your go-to.

 

[CRKrueger]

That seems like a giant leap in logic

Why? If I make up a Danish guy in 800AD, and my culture gives me a bonus to Boating, that's making assumptions about the individual based on attributes of the group.

All you're saying is Cultural Stereotypes are ok, but anything Genetic ist Verboten.

 

[CRKrueger]

No one is saying that it is, but hyperbole seems to be your go-to.

But it is racist, right?

 

[Gringnr]

Also worth noting that most of Kenya's elite runners come from the same two ethnic groups, who compose around 10% of Kenya's total population.

 

[Gringnr]

But it is racist, right?

Yes, see my above post.

 

[Séadna]

Crawford is one of my favourte youtubers. Great info in cozy little heartwarming chunks

I hadn't actually looked at his channel this week, but the comedic timing of this is wonderful. Just watch the first 20 seconds:

Spoiler

 

[TristramEvans]

All you're saying is Cultural Stereotypes are ok, but anything Genetic ist Verboten.

No, that isn't what I'm saying. I just think you are continuing to bring up examples completely unrelated to what's present in Mythic Polynesia.

Are you looking for someone to convince you something is racist when you don't think it is? I'm not going to do that, you can decide that on your own.
Are you looking to convince me that the stereotypes in MP aren't based on historical bigotry? Well, then you're going about it in the wrong way. obviously I consider Liam a more reliable source on the matter than yourself, so if you want to debunk his claims, you'll need to directly address and refute them, with evidence or credentials to support your PoV.
Otherwise I don't even know what your argument is, it seems to me like you keep jumping to unrelated subjects looking for an "aha!" and I don't get it.

 

[Voros]

Also worth noting that most of Kenya's elite runners come from the same two ethnic groups, who compose around 10% of Kenya's total population.

Jamaica has produced an insane number of talented singers so in an rpg any Jamaican should get a +2 on any singing skill.

This is fundamentally a dumb idea.

 

[TJS]

Re: Kenyan runners - we don't know why in particular they're so good. Doubtless biology plays a part, but how much of a part is difficult to say.

Theories generally include: some degree of biological advantage, growing up at altitude, running in their early years without shoes, running on dirt tracks and roads rather than bitumen, or of course, some combination of all these things.

Which kind of gets at the issue with these things in that they tend to combine biology and culture to present a typical averaged out difference between human groups, but PCs are often not representations of the mean of their group.

And really the kind of advantage that Kenyans (or as was said earlier a people from a particular region of Kenya) seem to have would probably be better represented by a higher potential maximum in running skill than other groups, since it doesn't make much sense to give a bonus to someone who has never run a day in their life.

(Even then if we wanted to be accurate I would say give a random potential maximum with a bellcurve advantage to the Kenyan to more likely be on the higher end of the bell curve than other groups, but that maximum is unknown until you actually hit it.)

 

[TristramEvans]

I hadn't actually looked at his channel this week, but the comedic timing of this is wonderful. Just watch the first 20 seconds:

Spoiler

Crecganford is another one I'm really fond of. Are you familiar with his channel?

 

[CRKrueger]

No, that isn't what I'm saying. I just think you are continuing to bring up examples completely unrelated to what's present in Mythic Polynesia.

Are you looking for someone to convince you something is racist when you don't think it is? I'm not going to do that, you can decide that on your own.
Are you looking to convince me that the stereotypes in MP aren't based on historical bigotry? Well, then you're going about it in the wrong way. obviously I consider Liam a more reliable source on the matter than yourself, so if you want to debunk his claims, you'll need to directly address and refute them, with evidence or credentials to support your PoV.
Otherwise I don't even know what your argument is, it seems to me like you keep jumping to unrelated subjects looking for an "aha!" and I don't get it.

My point is that making a game with a Norwegian Viking and deciding to give them +1 Siz because their average height warrants that within the system is exactly the same as deciding that they will have the Cultural Skill of Boating. You're looking at the overall population, or the overall culture and making a determination based on an average. Saying one is racist and one is not makes no sense.

 

[Séadna]

Crecganford is another one I'm really fond of. Are you familiar with his channel?

No, cheers. I had a quick look at the "Pyramids" and it's a nice quick exposition with the all the relevant facts. I've a load of videos to look forward to now.

I'd also recommend Luke Ranieri (Channel: Polymathy) and Simon Roper.

 

[AsenRG]

So here's what I had written before the lock fell and didn't manage to post it. All of it is a reply to Tristram's posts.

"You keep conflating cultures with living amenities.
Whether you heat yourself with gas or an open firepit is much less important than what beliefs are being assumed as part of life in that place.

And the same conservation of the culture that you're pointing out for the Polynesians was, until recently, equally true on the Balkan peninsula...and for pretty similar reasons.
In fact, if not for Communist rule, a lot of those beliefs would have been well and alive today. Hell, some of them still are. The last vampire-slaying ritual that I remember has happened around a decade ago.
That's why I pointed out Mythic Constantinople. It deals with the Balkan peninsula, which I was born on and where I live.

So, basically, Tristram - sorry, I don't agree with your position and remain of the opinion that your comparison is flawed.
The topic of MP might not be new, but it was already pointed that the cultures in question have a hard time trusting researchers...which makes it even harder to get accurate information when you're not traveling there. And I mean, Thor Heyerdahl noted just how hard it was to get people from the region to trust him in Aku-Aku (a book I heartily recommend, BTW, I hope it's got an English translation).
Likewise, honest games about life in Ancient Rome admit that we don't know a lot about the period due to the relative scarcity of sources (and it only gets worse in Early Medieval games). Compare and contrast that with the setting in Aquelarre, or the 15th century Baltic setting which was published relatively recently...and which both detail a combination of time and place which enjoys a lot more written sources, and benefits from a lot of experimental history efforts...
And yet, the author still notes we don't know everything about the time and place.
Also, MP suffers from needing to give an overview of a broad time period and a place containing multiple cultures. Of course the best it can hope is an overview.
Overviews are notorious for not being exact. Almost anything you say in one of them would be untrue for a given time and place that is supposedly part of the overview.
To give you an example that I've got a fair experience with, a wuxia game that isn't set in a specific time period of Chinese history cannot hope to compare in setting info with a game like Qin, which is set in a specific time period, basically down to the decade. And even the latter probably doesn't inform you well on the cultural differences between Northwestern and Southeastern China, even if it touches on the cultural differences between Northern and Southern China.

And then compare the aforementioned wuxia games with a game which mixes the whole of the Far East in one...providing, one might say, an overview of the region. For one thing, it would probably lead to overemphasizing the role of Buddhist and Confucian thought for China, while deemphasizing the role of Daoism (and likewise deemphasizing the role of Shinto for Japan), purely due to space constraints. And yet those two are part of the native beliefs, as opposed to Buddhism, which was a "foreign" religion and viewed as such for a large time of the history of said countries (though it came to be accepted as basically "native" in later periods, AFAICT).
And the role of Islam in western China would basically remain barely mentioned in the "overview" game, if at all. Yet it would be a major part of any game focused on the Xianjiang region, possibly dwarfing other entries!

So basically, focused games are more exact. Big surprise there, I know!
But for a region as little known as Polynesia, one of the first games published basically need to be exactly that, overview...which puts MP at a double disadvantage compared to other games in the line, both due to sources and due to the need for generalizing.

And yet even those other games aren't without their share of inexactitudes.

So basically, I agree with Krueger's reasoning in post #194 and reject your premise. The game is probably as good as it could be. And I'm just hoping that future supplements and games might get to share more light on specific cultures and time periods.
Though they are going to be subject to the same criticisms, I guess...so who knows if they'd ever get written!



Now, regarding stat differences...people, IIRC, the Vikings book for MRQ2 gives Northerners/Vikings +3 to Size. It is not an insignificant bonus and some other people might have had penalties. And I should know, my character's Size was a great boon to his survival!
It is also noted as being based on the amount of proteins, especially fish, in their diets. And the description of the stat in Mythras does say it's mostly about height.
Likewise, Mythic Rome gives to Roman characters 2d6+3 to roll, as opposed to the normal 2d6+6 for Germanic and Celtic people, I just checked. The reasoning is as simple as "the authors of the time noted how Romans were significantly shorter".
So, how come nobody noticed any racism back then?
To me, BTW, both of these make total sense. Yes, a tall Roman (who rolled well on attributes) would be head and shoulders above many Celts...but a huge Celtic or German warrior would dwarf him likewise. It is how things had been described by the contemporaries, and keep in mind, those contemporaries were basically noting that their compatriotes were the shorter ones...so no, they're not lying to make themselves look better.
They're just noting how things are with a typical, one could say, Roman detachment...
I'd invite you to follow in their lead, too! Because claiming that there wouldn't be stat differences between people who were living compactly at the time and enjoying a particular lifestyle, is just denying the truth.
After all, we're talking about historical societies with a particular lifestyle was very much a thing. It's in today's age that feeding habits might become quite similar, and often changes lead to a different profile - which can easily be traced in the data about, say, Korea and Japan (where older people are even painted in some mangas as shorter...because they usually are).
Case in point: https://www.statista.com/statistics/935212/south-korea-average-height-men-by-age-group/

And, as much as it might surprise you, Mythras/BRP is a system that does account for statistical differences. That is part of why I like it...even when it doesn't quite benefit my character concept (I'd definitely play a Roman if I get to play Mythic Rome).

 

[CRKrueger]

Jamaica has produced an insane number of talented singers so in an rpg any Jamaican should get a +2 on any singing skill.

This is fundamentally a dumb idea.

If Jamaican singers won 80% of all Vocal Performance Awards, and singing could actually be measured, there could be a case for a skill bonus.

 

[TristramEvans]

My point is that making a game with a Norwegian Viking and deciding to give them +1 Siz because their average height warrants that within the system is exactly the same as deciding that they will have the Cultural Skill of Boating. You're looking at the overall population, or the overall culture and making a determination based on an average. Saying one is racist and one is not makes no sense.

If you were making an RPG set in 1970s New York City and gave residents of the Bronx -1 Intelligence and a bonus to the skills Basketball and Burglary, how would that strike you?

Context matters

 

[TristramEvans]

No, cheers. I had a quick look at the "Pyramids" and it's a nice quick exposition with the all the relevant facts. I've a load of videos to look forward to now.

His stuff on Indo-European mythological reconstruction is some of my favourites.

I'd also recommend Luke Ranieri (Channel: Polymathy) and Simon Roper.

I'm going to look them up now

 

[Raleel]

My point is that making a game with a Norwegian Viking and deciding to give them +1 Siz because their average height warrants that within the system is exactly the same as deciding that they will have the Cultural Skill of Boating.

Disagree. They will always benefit from +1 siz. They don’t actually have to put any more points than the minimum into boating. That’s how Mythras represents these things over characteristic bonuses. There are even examples in the book of getting a choice between multiples. The skill itself is not inherent.

on top of that a bonus in size as a statistical representation of a population is, as you say, too minor a representation within a species.

That’s a notable change between mongoose RQ2/Legend and Mythras.

 

[Gringnr]

If Jamaican singers won 80% of all Vocal Performance Awards, and singing could actually be measured, there could be a case for a skill bonus.

If it was only 10% of all Jamaicans (okay, a tiny fraction of that 10%, actually) that won such awards, would you still award the bonus to all Jamaicans? Because that's what you're arguing for with regard to Kenyans.

 

[CRKrueger]

If you were making an RPG set in 1970s New York City and gave residents of the Bronx -1 Intelligence and a bonus to the skills Basketball and Burglary, how would that strike you?

Context matters

Giving someone a modifier to intelligence isn't warranted, we don't know enough about intelligence. If someone was from the lowest social class, and homeless on the streets of 1970's NYC, then getting a criminal skill during chargen doesn't seem beyond the pale.

 

[Endless Flight]

Giving someone a modifier to intelligence isn't warranted, we don't know enough about intelligence. If someone was from the lowest social class, and homeless on the streets of 1970's NYC, then getting a criminal skill during chargen doesn't seem beyond the pale.

But that would be making assumptions about poverty-stricken and homeless people being criminals.

 

[TristramEvans]

So here's what I had written before the lock fell and didn't manage to post it. All of it is a reply to Tristram's posts.

"You keep conflating cultures with living amenities.
Whether you heat yourself with gas or an open firepit is much less important than what beliefs are being assumed as part of life in that place.

I agree, and the last time I checked no one in Athens was sacrificing horses to Poseidan or consulting oracles.

(I'm assuming that's the thread of the conversation you're responding to - a lot has happened since then, so without quotes I'm a little lost)

And the same conservation of the culture that you're pointing out for the Polynesians was, until recently, equally true on the Balkan peninsula...and for pretty similar reasons.

I'm ...not sure about that. The Balkans is a pretty large area. I've only visited Greece and Italy (and Czechoslovakia, if that's included - google is giving e a bunch of different areas as to what is covered by the Balkans at different points in history.

In fact, if not for Communist rule, a lot of those beliefs would have been well and alive today. Hell, some of them still are. The last vampire-slaying ritual that I remember has happened around a decade ago.

OK, sure, yeah, I'm aware certain superstitions are longstanding in Eastern Europe. So I guess we're not talking about Athens anymore?

That's why I pointed out Mythic Constantinople. It deals with the Balkan peninsula, which I was born on and where I live.

OK. So...just so I'm clear, what is your claim here? I thought we agreed that modern day Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) was a modern city whose culture was very different from the time period covered by Mythic Constantinople? Are you saying that the RPG boo is inaccurate or under-researched? Are yu saying they should have brought someone on from the Balkan peninsula to help write it?

So, basically, Tristram - sorry, I don't agree with your position and remain of the opinion that your comparison is flawed.

OK. I'll have to go back and look up what position/comparison was.

The topic of MP might not be new, but it was already pointed that the cultures in question have a hard time trusting researchers...which makes it even harder to get accurate information when you're not traveling there. And I mean, Thor Heyerdahl noted just how hard it was to get people from the region to trust him in Aku-Aku (a book I heartily recommend, BTW, I hope it's got an English translation).

Sure, that's fair, just as I think Liam's critiques that there was no attempt made to consult modern sources or communicate with anyone with direct knowledge also seems a fair criticism. If the authr had stated : "attempts to get more direct or current information were unfortunately impossible due to the secrecy of the cultures involved so we had to fill in gaps with the only research available" that might or might not be a credible excuse. But I don't get the feeling that this is actually the case, at least in regards to the Maori. I have no idea about the other Polynesian cultures referenced.

Likewise, honest games about life in Ancient Rome admit that we don't know a lot about the period due to the relative scarcity of sources (and it only gets worse in Early Medieval games). Compare and contrast that with the setting in Aquelarre, or the 15th century Baltic setting which was published relatively recently...and which both detail a combination of time and place which enjoys a lot more written sources, and benefits from a lot of experimental history efforts...
And yet, the author still notes we don't know everything about the time and place.

Sure, and I don't have any issue with a game "filling in gaps" to make it playable where historical knowledge just isn't extant. Again, that just doesn't seem t be the case here.

Also, MP suffers from needing to give an overview of a broad time period and a place containing multiple cultures. Of course the best it can hope is an overview.

True. But I don't think it's being faulted for not giving enough specifics, rather for inaccuracies. At least, that's how I read the criticisms.

The game is probably as good as it could be.

Well, we know for certain that's not the case.

Now, regarding stat differences...people, IIRC, the Vikings book for MRQ2 gives Northerners/Vikings +3 to Size. It is not an insignificant bonus and some other people might have had penalties. And I should know, my character's Size was a great boon to his survival!
It is also noted as being based on the amount of proteins, especially fish, in their diets. And the description of the stat in Mythras does say it's mostly about height.
Likewise, Mythic Rome gives to Roman characters 2d6+3 to roll, as opposed to the normal 2d6+6 for Germanic and Celtic people, I just checked. The reasoning is as simple as "the authors of the time noted how Romans were significantly shorter".
So, how come nobody noticed any racism back then?

Because a member of that culture didn't take to social media and say "hey, this game is perpetuating stereotypes frequently used as rationales for bigotry and oppression of these cultures in the recent past"

 

[TristramEvans]

Giving someone a modifier to intelligence isn't warranted, we don't know enough about intelligence.

Same with size of dark age Norwegians, but that isn't the point is it? It's perpetuating a well-circulated myth/stereotype.

Are you claiming the stat bonuses and cultural stereotypes presented in Mythic Polynesia are based upon well-researched statistical data?

If someone was from the lowest social class, and homeless on the streets of 1970's NYC, then getting a criminal skill during chargen doesn't seem beyond the pale.

The residents in the Bronx are not all homeless, but the conflation of low income with automatically being a criminal IS one of the issues that I am pointing out.

 

[Baragei]

I don’t think anyone here is accusing TDM of being racists. What they should do is remove the table at the very least because it’s a mistake.

But plenty of people are defending the statement of one particular nit on twitter that TDM's latest release is indeed very, very racist. It's just sad to see that silliness here, regardless of actual gripes with Shirley's level of research and TDM's editing team (a cruel joke, but I'm still making it).

 

[Raleel]

Giving someone a modifier to intelligence isn't warranted, we don't know enough about intelligence. If someone was from the lowest social class, and homeless on the streets of 1970's NYC, then getting a criminal skill during chargen doesn't seem beyond the pale.

This really comes to how you name the skills. Civilized folks already get deceit as a cultural skill, which is unlike the other cultures. Civilized folks also get streetwise as an option as commerce. Not inherently criminal, but certainly good underpinnings for one if you wanted to go there.

also, skill definition is a part of defining your setting. I wouldn’t even bother with basketball or burglary unless those were of extreme importance to the story. I’d still probably make them broader in virtually every game (save maybe a game about criminal enterprises surrounding basketball, but it’s still very narrow).

 

[TristramEvans]

But plenty of people are defending the statement of one particular nit on twitter that TDM's latest release is indeed very, very racist.

"Defending" doesn't seem accurate. Right now, having no reliable knowledge myself of the subject, I see no reason to doubt his statements. So far, no one has posed a rebuttal to his claims that isn't simply ad hominems (like calling him a "nit"?). I am patiently waiting for anyone with more knowledge or reliable sources to refute Liam's criticisms, but nothing is forthcoming as yet. Until that point, I see no reason to doubt him, and don't see anything that he needs to be defended against, except logical fallacies.

 

[TristramEvans]

also, skill definition is a part of defining your setting. I wouldn’t even bother with basketball or burglary unless those were of extreme importance to the story. I’d still probably make them broader in virtually every game (save maybe a game about criminal enterprises surrounding basketball, but it’s still very narrow).

lol, those were just examples chosen to illustrate presenting an unfortunate cultural stereotype in game terms.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I think SIZ is a somewhat different example, simply because it is solely about physical characteristics. That's more defensible for me, apart from possibly on game balance grounds.

 

[Zebraman]

Leaving aside the ongoing debate about whether and how Mythic Polynesia (and the Mythic line generally) relates on a fundamental level to any real-world cultures or peoples for a moment; I think if nothing else the Cultural Characteristics Table does not present a very compelling explanation as to why the bonuses relate to the particular groups even within the context of Mythic Polynesia being entirely fantastical.

So, for example the Cultural Characteristic table, (which also includes Cultural Stereotypes as Passions) is on page 56. However, a detailed description of the peoples of Mythic Polynesia begins on page 139 (Chapter – The Friendly Alliance).

This makes the Cultural Characteristics quite jarring as to what they mean and why. They are included in the character creation section so that is probably the reason for the editorial disconnect. But considering they are described as optional rules then at a minimum it might be better to move them to the beginning of The Friendly Alliance Chapter (if their inclusion is necessary).

I have been reading the Friendly Alliance Chapter in more detail this evening with specific reference to the Cultural Characteristics Table and what I have found is that the reference to the Cultural Characteristics and why the particular bonuses are given is pretty spotty.

For example most of the groups get +1 DEX but it’s not obvious why (I can take some guesses but I shouldn’t really have to). Similarly, the people of the Hivan Archipelago are described as having limited resources and being in a state of war. There is no mention of their height or build but they get a +1 SIZ.

Conversely the Dominion of Oro are known for their etiquette and sense of style along with traditionally their beauty so in-game that at least accounts for a +1 CHA. Equally In Mythic Polynesia the Hawai’ian people have access to a lot of red meat and engage in hard labour which I guess accounts for their +1 STR. But then again, the Rapanui also get a +1 STR without an obvious explanation.

Samoans have +1 INT but there isn’t an obvious reason why. And so forth.

Basically, I think if a book is going to include Characteristic Bonuses based on culture or nationality it should be fairly obvious to the reader (and most importantly the GM) as to the rationale.

 

[CRKrueger]

But plenty of people are defending the statement of one particular nit on twitter that TDM's latest release is indeed very, very racist. It's just sad to see that silliness here, regardless of actual gripes with Shirley's level of research and TDM's editing team (a cruel joke, but I'm still making it).

There’s a direct line to how we got here. The Pub allowed the discussion of stuff like MAR’s background because “saying Nazi’s are racist isn’t a political position”. An unfortunate decision, but 100% understandable. No one wants to leave open a line of attack of Nazi Apologia or defense.

But…now that we get to call people racists, we either accept all claims of racist in gaming unchallenged, or we allow the discussion of what is racist. Either of which allows people to push their political beliefs under the cover of the hastily erected ”We Don’t Defend Nazis” umbrella. Unfortunately, while under that umbrella, the Pub is allowing clear political debate to occur.

Even worse, it’s allowing, based on one Tweet, the author, and by extension the company, to be branded racist.

 

[CRKrueger]

Leaving aside the ongoing debate about whether and how Mythic Polynesia (and the Mythic line generally) relates on a fundamental level to any real-world cultures or peoples for a moment; I think if nothing else the Cultural Characteristics Table does not present a very compelling explanation as to why the bonuses relate to the particular groups even within the context of Mythic Polynesia being entirely fantastical.

So, for example the Cultural Characteristic table, (which also includes Cultural Stereotypes as Passions) is on page 56. However, a detailed description of the peoples of Mythic Polynesia begins on page 139 (Chapter – The Friendly Alliance).

This makes the Cultural Characteristics quite jarring as to what they mean and why. They are included in the character creation section so that is probably the reason for the editorial disconnect. But considering they are described as optional rules then at a minimum it might be better to move them to the beginning of The Friendly Alliance Chapter (if their inclusion is necessary).

I have been reading the Friendly Alliance Chapter in more detail this evening with specific reference to the Cultural Characteristics Table and what I have found is that the reference to the Cultural Characteristics and why the particular bonuses are given is pretty spotty.

For example most of the groups get +1 DEX but it’s not obvious why (I can take some guesses but I shouldn’t really have to). Similarly, the people of the Hivan Archipelago are described as having limited resources and being in a state of war. There is no mention of their height or build but they get a +1 SIZ.

Conversely the Dominion of Oro are known for their etiquette and sense of style along with traditionally their beauty so in-game that at least accounts for a +1 CHA. Equally In Mythic Polynesia the Hawai’ian people have access to a lot of red meat and engage in hard labour which I guess accounts for their +1 STR. But then again, the Rapanui also get a +1 STR without an obvious explanation.

Samoans have +1 INT but there isn’t an obvious reason why. And so forth.

Basically, I think if a book is going to include Characteristic Bonuses based on culture or nationality it should be fairly obvious to the reader (and most importantly the GM) as to the rationale.

Nice to see a non-dogmatic criticism, and one that’s the actual problem with the table…the rationale seems more to be because players like differentiation than anything else. That’s probably why its an optional step.

 

[CRKrueger]

It seems that at this point, the most important poster is Séadna. Anything but him posting until he’s done is noise, so I’ll shut up and get the signal.

 

[AsenRG]

There’s a direct line to how we got here. The Pub allowed the discussion of stuff like MAR’s background because “saying Nazi’s are racist isn’t a political position”. An unfortunate decision, but 100% understandable. No one wants to leave open a line of attack of Nazi Apologia or defense.

But…now that we get to call people racists, we either accept all claims of racist in gaming unchallenged, or we allow the discussion of what is racist. Either of which allows people to push their political beliefs under the cover of the hastily erected ”We Don’t Defend Nazis” umbrella. Unfortunately, while under that umbrella, the Pub is allowing clear political debate to occur.

Even worse, it’s allowing, based on one Tweet, the author, and by extension the company, to be branded racist.

Alas, yes, that does indeed seem to be what's going on.

It seems that at this point, the most important poster is Séadna. Anything but him posting until he’s done is noise, so I’ll shut up and get the signal.

Likewise...though I just have to respond to part of Tristram's posts.

"Defending" doesn't seem accurate. Right now, having no reliable knowledge myself of the subject, I see no reason to doubt his statements.

If you notice, in his posts in the thread, Séadna notes repeatedly that Liam's criticisms are based on New Zealand and that what Liam says indeed isn't correct for NZ culture...but that the book is correct for the broader region.
So Liam is correct that his culture is misrepresented, but that's because the book isn't accounting for how New Zealand/Maori differ from the rest of the region. And there's after all only so much space in a book...

Now, keeping the above in mind, refer again to my previous post, where I'm saying that Mythic Polynesia needs to be an overview of a whole, quite diverse region, and this is going to impact the exactitude.
I even compared it to writing about East Asia as a region, vs writing for China, which is a single country, but with many sub-divisions, vs writing for a specific Chinese region or sub-region, and how writing about the region would lead to similar discrepancies which might easily offend a Chinese (or Japanese) reader...

So far, my prediction seems to be quite accurate, though: the book has at least decent research, but in writing for a wider region that is not well-known to the gaming public, it simply has to generalize.

Also, TristramEvans ....it would indeed be best for you to abstain from pronouncing yourself about Eastern Europe and the Balkans in particular...
Putting it in milder terms than Liam, you trying to explain to me what beliefs are central for the culture of the Balkan peninsula which you can't even define is getting by now if not offensive, then definitely tiresome.

BTW, Czechoslovakia isn't a country that exists, hasn't existed for decades now due to splitting, and even when it existed, it could only be lumped with Eastern Europe (as opposed to, you know, Central Europe) by someone who separates the whole continent purely into Western Europe and That Other Europe. Or possibly by someone who separates Europe into Our Guys Since The Cold War and Those Other Guys. (Sorry, I can only guess at the source of that idea).
I'm not even going to touch the idea of Czechoslovakia being part of the Balkan peninsula, which you seemed unclear about (seriously ?), because there's maps for that and one look at them should have told you that no, it's not on the peninsula...
Sorry, I don't intend to write an essay on folk beliefs from my region and where they came from...especially not in this thread.

 

[TristramEvans]

Even worse, it’s allowing, based on one Tweet, the author, and by extension the company, to be branded racist.

No one in this thread has branded the author or the company racist.

If you notice, in his posts in the thread, Séadna notes repeatedly that Liam's criticisms are based on New Zealand and that what Liam says indeed isn't correct for NZ culture...but that the book is correct for the broader region.
So Liam is correct that his culture is misrepresented, but that's because the book isn't accounting for how New Zealand/Maori differ from the rest of the region. And there's after all only so much space in a book...

Now, keeping the above in mind, refer again to my previous post, where I'm saying that Mythic Polynesia needs to be an overview of a whole, quite diverse region, and this is going to impact the exactitude.
I even compared it to writing about East Asia as a region, vs writing for China, which is a single country, but with many sub-divisions, vs writing for a specific Chinese region or sub-region, and how writing about the region would lead to similar discrepancies which might easily offend a Chinese (or Japanese) reader...

So far, my prediction seems to be quite accurate, though: the book has at least decent research, but in writing for a wider region that is not well-known to the gaming public, it simply has to generalize.

OK. To what extent do you believe that accounts for Liam's criticisms? Because the issues (as read it) don't seem to simply be "general statements were make about Polynesia that simply don't apply to the Maori".

Also, TristramEvans ....it would indeed be best for you to abstain from pronouncing yourself about Eastern Europe and the Balkans in particular...

Pronouncing what? I don't recall making any pronouncements.

I did ask you some direct questions.

A question is pretty much the exact opposite of a pronouncement.

Putting it in milder terms than Liam, you trying to explain to me what beliefs are central for the culture of the Balkan peninsula which you can't even define is getting by now if not offensive, then definitely tiresome.

I really don't know what I wrote that you interpreted as me "trying to explain to [you] what beliefs are central for the culture of the Balkan peninsula"
My reply doesn't state anything about that - I would never have even attempted to do so.

BTW, Czechoslovakia isn't a country that exists, hasn't existed for decades now due to splitting,

I visited the Czech Republic in 2003-2004, Prague specifically. If you're saying the culture there is completely different since the redefining of borders and name change, well, doesn't that directly refute your own claims up to this point?

and even when it existed, it could only be lumped with Eastern Europe

well, that's why I asked.

(as opposed to, you know, Central Europe) by someone who separates the whole continent purely into Western Europe and That Other Europe. Or possibly by someone who separates Europe into Our Guys Since The Cold War and Those Other Guys. (Sorry, I can only guess at the source of that idea).

What?

Sorry, I don't intend to write an essay on folk beliefs from my region and where they came from...especially not in this thread.

OK, good, I don't know if the forum could handle the amount of emojis that would require.

But you could directly address what I actually asked, this entire post seems. entirely ... tangential.