D&D: is it the gateway game for the rest of the hobby?

[Sloth_in_a_bowl]

My 45th anniversary with RPGs will be in 2023 as well, although I'm not sure of the precise month that I bought Gamma World 1st edition.

I still have a few of my first dice from that boxed set, although they're not exactly usable by this point:

View attachment 53957

My first d8 was green and I had that colour d6 as well. Both of them were worn out by 1982 when I got them.

 

[Vile Traveller]

Still have my old RQ2 Deluxe polyhedrals. Not the tiny D6s, though.

 

[AsenRG]

They started out intended that way yeah, then evolved into something else. And the current Basic rules aren't a quickstart, you can play those as a full game. It doesn't say quickstart anywhere, there are no rules that are missing that you need to play. What exactly are they missing in order to be a full game?

...come on, man. You can play a number of quickstarts as full games, starting with the CoC and Delta Green ones. A number of us on this forum have played for years with less than 20 pages of rules, myself included. "Can play it as a full game" doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.
On top of that, a number of quickstarts are called something else, like IDK, Fastplay, or Imperative, or whatever! Yet, they're still quickstarts, not different editions...

Are you seriously trying to imply that WotC are producing two editions of D&D at once? And somehow they've named both of them 5e...despite us all knowing how WotC likes to differentiate its products?

What the actual fuck?

Simple. He's comparing the B/X edition of D&D to the 180-pages document for 5e and the full three books of rules to AD&D.

My argument is that it's erroneous (and discourteous) to compare B/X, which is IMO an edition in its own right, to a quickstart. Yes, even if that quickstart was having a three-digits-number of pages (check the Against the Dark Master's quickstart if you want to see an example).
So you should compare B/X to the whole of the three corebooks of 5e if you want an actual comparison. To do otherwise implies, to me, that you're not treating B/X as an actual edition of the game, but a quickstart (or you're just desperately trying to defend 5E, but I'm sure nobody here is doing that)!

 

[raniE]

...come on, man. You can play a number of quickstarts as full games, starting with the CoC and Delta Green ones. A number of us on this forum have played for years with less than 20 pages of rules, myself included. "Can play it as a full game" doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.
On top of that, a number of quickstarts are called something else, like IDK, Fastplay, or Imperative, or whatever! Yet, they're still quickstarts, not different editions...

Sure a QuickStart could be fast play or imperative … but Basic D&D isn’t called any of that. Neither does it have the pre generated characters that you’ll find in for instance the Call of Cthulhu QuickStart, nor the sample adventure that I at least can’t recall seeing a QuickStart without. It doesn’t lack character creation rules either, again unlike the current Call of Cthulhu QuickStart, nor does Basic D&D lack rules for improving characters, again unlike the CoC QuickStart rules.

The defining thing about a QuickStart is that it is incomplete. It doesn’t have all the rules you need to play the game, just the ones you need to get started and play the provided scenario. Basic D&D fits none of those criteria. There are full rules, including for character creation and character advancement. There is no sample adventure, nor sample characters for use in playing that adventure. Almost like it isn’t a QuickStart set. Fancy that.

You can post all the smileys you want, it doesn’t change that what defines a QuickStart set is having incomplete rules, a sample scenario to play, sample characters (most of the time) and no rules for character creation (again, most of the time). I own several QuickStarts, including one for AD&D 2e and one of the starter sets for 5e. They all fit into this mold of incomplete rules, no or limited character creation and progression, sample scenario or campaign, sample characters etc. D&D Basic does not.

Are you seriously trying to imply that WotC are producing two editions of D&D at once? And somehow they've named both of them 5e...despite us all knowing how WotC likes to differentiate its products?

I’m saying that D&D Basic is a complete game, not a QuickStart set, and can absolutely be compared to other full games, like B/X, CoC or GURPS UltraLite (also not a QuickStart set, but a full game in itself).

Simple. He's comparing the B/X edition of D&D to the 180-pages document for 5e and the full three books of rules to AD&D.

Correct.

My argument is that it's erroneous (and discourteous) to compare B/X, which is IMO an edition in its own right, to a quickstart.

Incorrect (well, I’m sure that’s your argument, it’s just that it’s wrong).

Yes, even if that quickstart was having a three-digits-number of pages (check the Against the Dark Master's quickstart if you want to see an example).
So you should compare B/X to the whole of the three corebooks of 5e if you want an actual comparison. To do otherwise implies, to me, that you're not treating B/X as an actual edition of the game, but a quickstart (or you're just desperately trying to defend 5E, but I'm sure nobody here is doing that)!

If a game set can be played entirely in its own and is not lacking any rules, it isn’t a quick start, it’s a full game. Quick start sets are all about getting you playing as fast as possible, and leaving you with a need to get the full rules. I looked at the Against the Darkmaster “QuickStart”. It doesn’t really qualify, not if it’s a full game in itself and not lacking any functionality.

 

[TristramEvans]

I remember the Quickstart for the Dying Earth RPG was so good, nobody bothered to buy the full game

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

If I wanted to spend money on an unfinished 12 page RPG I'd go on Itch.io.

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[AsenRG]

Sure a QuickStart could be fast play or imperative … but Basic D&D isn’t called any of that.

Again, names are irrelevant here, that's my point. Yes, WotC might be trying to pass Basic as more than a quickstart, but it just ain't that.

Neither does it have the pre generated characters that you’ll find in for instance the Call of Cthulhu QuickStart,

1) I think there were, but the file isn't in front of me.
2) More importantly, the point of a QS is to show you what the game is like by allowing you to play without buying the actual rules.
2.1. Given the emphasis on building your own character, it would actually hurt that goal if you were to use a pre-made, IMO. Same reason why there aren't pre-made characters in the GURPS quickstart, either. You are expected to build your own, because that's part of the game experience.

2.2. I'd argue that WotC are betting on you being introduced to their game by an existing group, not by you starting a group for their game using the quickstart. Since they do have the most players, it seems a pretty safe bet.

nor the sample adventure that I at least can’t recall seeing a QuickStart without.

Don't WotC have a free adventure on their site? IIRC, they do. So they're just expecting you to get it in a different file (and players are saved from some amount of temptation about looking at what is going to happen).
Also, the TRoS Quickstart and the GURPS Quickstart both come without an adventure, so the point is moot anyway.

It doesn’t lack character creation rules either, again unlike the current Call of Cthulhu QuickStart, nor does Basic D&D lack rules for improving characters, again unlike the CoC QuickStart rules.

There is no law stating how you should make a QS, man.
But both those kind of rules are in the Need to Know Quickstart for DG, IIRC. And the Spellcraft and Swordplay QS definitely has them, it has advancement up to 3rd level...oh yes, and it predates Basic.
The TROS Quickstart and the GURPS one also have both.

The defining thing about a QuickStart is that it is incomplete. It doesn’t have all the rules you need to play the game, just the ones you need to get started and play the provided scenario.

The GURPS Quickstart and TRoS Quickstart are both looking at you and going "so we're complete games now, huh?"
Same for Mythras Imperative, which also has advancement.

Basic D&D fits none of those criteria. There are full rules, including for character creation and character advancement. There is no sample adventure, nor sample characters for use in playing that adventure. Almost like it isn’t a QuickStart set. Fancy that.

Again, makes it totally analogous to the GURPS and TRoS quickstarts. Fancy that.
Oh, and you can play the game with both. In fact, I've introduced a lot of people to RPGs via GURPS, and always used the GURPS quickstart.

You can post all the smileys you want,

Kindly fuck off, please! I always post with smileys, that's neither exclusive to this argument, nor to arguing with you!
In fact, I've managed to get temporary bans on the Big Purple for overuse of emoticons...despite the fact that they have a 10 emoticons per post limit...

If we're going to pass on to style accusations, here's one: you can make all the sweeping generalizations about quickstarts that you want, doesn't change the fact that it took me all of 30 seconds to think of a counter-example, and I had another two that also "break the rules you want to set for quickstarts". Furthermore, one of them is an OSR game, the other is a "deep sim" game, and the third is a "deep sim" game with a semi-narrative advancement system.
So no, all kinds of RPGs have quickstart that come without an adventure, allow you to play the game (even if they do provide a sample adventure, see GURPS) and...well, do I need to repeat all your point with a fat stamp saying "disproved"?

it doesn’t change that what defines a QuickStart set is having incomplete rules, a sample scenario to play, sample characters (most of the time) and no rules for character creation (again, most of the time).

A "defining characteristic" that isn't shared by quite a few games out there...ain't defining, nor a characteristic. It's what someone in an online discussion would want to be.

I own several QuickStarts, including one for AD&D 2e and one of the starter sets for 5e. They all fit into this mold of incomplete rules, no or limited character creation and progression, sample scenario or campaign, sample characters etc. D&D Basic does not.

I own...probably a lot more, I almost always look at quickstarts first.
And a lot of them don't fit the mold that you're casting for them.

I’m saying that D&D Basic is a complete game, not a QuickStart set, and can absolutely be compared to other full games, like B/X, CoC or GURPS UltraLite (also not a QuickStart set, but a full game in itself).

GURPS Lite is exactly that, a quickstart. Ultra Lite is IMO a bad QS, since it's hard to play an UL character in a regular GURPS game...but it's still a QS. They're no different from the TRoS Quickstart...which was even named Quickstart, for a change.
Even their pagecount is quite similar.

Correct.

Actually no...it's correct inasfar as this being indeed your argument. It's just that the argument itself is incorrect.

Incorrect (well, I’m sure that’s your argument, it’s just that it’s wrong).

You haven't proved that.

If a game set can be played entirely in its own and is not lacking any rules, it isn’t a quick start, it’s a full game.

Again, that's total bullshit!
A quickstart is a set of rules that aims to introduce you to a bigger "full game" and get you to buy it, possibly by allowing you to play it without investing. Some people are actually happy with that and stick to playing with QS rules, but from the PoV of the publishers that produce the game, that's an unfortunate side effect.

 

[Rich H]

I'm really fucking confused.

 

[Vile Traveller]

Holmes Basic is the prototype quickstart. Complete rules (albeit limited to 3rd level), an attempt to be clear and concise (not as clear as it could be, but it was working from OD&D, and very very very concise), and the best starter dungeon ever.

B/X is a complete game, I'm getting confused in the argument as to whether people are saying it's a quickstart or not. Even Moldvay Basic on its own has enough for years of play, and it came bundled with B3 Caves of Chaos so you can't say there's no introductory adventure - that thing is a whole campaign.

 

[Grognard GM]

I own...probably a lot more, I almost always look at quickstarts first.
And a lot of them don't fit the mold that you're casting for them.

I've never bought a Quickstart in my life. I'd rather persevere with learning the full rules right out the gate, that learn a simplified version, than have to re-learn the advanced rules.

It's cool that you find them useful, but it's the complete opposite for me.

 

[AsenRG]

Holmes Basic is the prototype quickstart. Complete rules (albeit limited to 3rd level), an attempt to be clear and concise (not as clear as it could be, but it was working from OD&D, and very very very concise), and the best starter dungeon ever.

I can agree with that, though some fans might disagree...

B/X is a complete game, I'm getting confused in the argument as to whether people are saying it's a quickstart or not.

I'm saying it's a complete game, unlike Basic D&D. Obviously I'm arguing against the idea that B/X was an "intro to AD&D", same as Basic D&D is an intro to 5e.

I also feel kinda weird defending a D&D edition, but that's a separate topic...

 

[AsenRG]

I've never bought a Quickstart in my life. I'd rather persevere with learning the full rules right out the gate, that learn a simplified version, than have to re-learn the advanced rules.

It's cool that you find them useful, but it's the complete opposite for me.

Then, as long as you don't try and tell me what a quickstart is and what it should contain, I'm completely fine with and actually support your stance!

 

[Grognard GM]

Then, as long as you don't try and tell me what a quickstart is and what it should contain, I'm completely fine with and actually support your stance!

Agreed.

...

As long as it has extensive but easy to explain rules, enough dice for a full group, paper minis, maps, a full campaign, and a copy of the full main rulebook, I really have no feelings about what it should or shouldn't contain.

 

[raniE]

Again, names are irrelevant here, that's my point. Yes, WotC might be trying to pass Basic as more than a quickstart, but it just ain't that.

Nope, because you seem to have a really strange defintion of a quickstart.

1) I think there were, but the file isn't in front of me.

No there are no pre-made characters in D&D Basic, and there are no character creation rules in the current Call of Cthulhu Quickstart.

2) More importantly, the point of a QS is to show you what the game is like by allowing you to play without buying the actual rules.

The point of a quick start is to let you play for a short bit without having the rules

2.1. Given the emphasis on building your own character, it would actually hurt that goal if you were to use a pre-made, IMO. Same reason why there aren't pre-made characters in the GURPS quickstart, either. You are expected to build your own, because that's part of the game experience.

That's part of the experience in every game though, and quick start rules always have pre-made characters, because that's how you get into the game quickly. In fact, the actual D&D quickstart rules, the Starter Set, does have pre-made characters and no character creation rules, because the goal is to get you playing immediately. From there you can move on to the the Basic rules or buy the PHB, DMG and MM.

2.2. I'd argue that WotC are betting on you being introduced to their game by an existing group, not by you starting a group for their game using the quickstart. Since they do have the most players, it seems a pretty safe bet.


Don't WotC have a free adventure on their site? IIRC, they do. So they're just expecting you to get it in a different file (and players are saved from some amount of temptation about looking at what is going to happen).

Not that I can find no. So you'd be wrong there. They want you to start with the Starter set, which has incomplete rules and pregenerated characters and an adventure. Not with Basic D&D.

Also, the TRoS Quickstart and the GURPS Quickstart both come without an adventure, so the point is moot anyway.

I don't know what TRoS is here (The Riddle of Steel?) but GURPS doesn't have a quickstart set.

There is no law stating how you should make a QS, man.

Maybe not, but we do know what makes a full game. If something called a Quickstart fulfills the criteria for that, it's no longer a quickstart set, it's just a game. Otherwise there is no dividing line between a quickstart and a game and then the distinction serves no purpose

But both those kind of rules are in the Need to Know Quickstart for DG, IIRC. And the Spellcraft and Swordplay QS definitely has them, it has advancement up to 3rd level...oh yes, and it predates Basic.

Spellcraft & Swordplay has a basic set which it introduces like this: "Now, we present a free PDF introductory "Basic Set," akin to those games in the legacy which S&S honors." So either B/X is a quickstart or Spellcraft & Swordplay's Basic set isn't. Which is it?

Need to Know seems to lack several things from the full Delta green rules, like weapons, even directing you to "Get the other entries from the Agent’s Handbook" when it comes to weapon stats. It only has info about a small handful of skills and the info about special training is that the handler will tell you if your agent has any special training. Nothing about how the Handler should assign these. It seems surprisingly completely, but there's clearly important bits missing.

The TROS Quickstart and the GURPS one also have both.

The GURPS Quickstart and TRoS Quickstart are both looking at you and going "so we're complete games now, huh?"
Same for Mythras Imperative, which also has advancement.

There is no GURPS Quickstart. At least I can't find one on Warehouse 23 when looking at free GURPS stuff. Checking later you seem to be talking about GURPS Lite and to that I can just say, yeah, it's a complete game. Mythras Imperative? Lacks anything in the way of equipment rules past weapons and armor and has obviously cut out all the magic rules, but it also has laser rifles and such, so more generic than the Mythras I own. Yeah, I'd say that's a complete game, a further iteration on the BRP rules.

Again, makes it totally analogous to the GURPS and TRoS quickstarts. Fancy that.
Oh, and you can play the game with both. In fact, I've introduced a lot of people to RPGs via GURPS, and always used the GURPS quickstart.


Kindly fuck off, please! I always post with smileys, that's neither exclusive to this argument, nor to arguing with you!

Okay?

If we're going to pass on to style accusations, here's one: you can make all the sweeping generalizations about quickstarts that you want, doesn't change the fact that it took me all of 30 seconds to think of a counter-example, and I had another two that also "break the rules you want to set for quickstarts". Furthermore, one of them is an OSR game, the other is a "deep sim" game, and the third is a "deep sim" game with a semi-narrative advancement system.
So no, all kinds of RPGs have quickstart that come without an adventure, allow you to play the game (even if they do provide a sample adventure, see GURPS) and...well, do I need to repeat all your point with a fat stamp saying "disproved"?

That has nothing to do with style.

A "defining characteristic" that isn't shared by quite a few games out there...ain't defining, nor a characteristic. It's what someone in an online discussion would want to be.

Except most of the ones you talk about aren't called quick starts, or anything similar, so that's you deciding they are. One of them claimed to be the same type of basic set as old school D&D used to have, which you are saying, rightly, isn't a quick start. So is it a quick start and they're wrong to compare their quickstart to the old Basic D&D? Or is it its own ruleset and you were wrong to call it a Quickstart?

I own...probably a lot more, I almost always look at quickstarts first.
And a lot of them don't fit the mold that you're casting for them.

Then they aren't quickstarts. A rule document of over 100 pages for instance is not a "quickstart" because there's no way you're getting started with that quickly.

GURPS Lite is exactly that, a quickstart. Ultra Lite is IMO a bad QS, since it's hard to play an UL character in a regular GURPS game...but it's still a QS. They're no different from the TRoS Quickstart...which was even named Quickstart, for a change.
Even their pagecount is quite similar.

No they aren't , they're complete games. GURPS Lite and Ultra Lite can be played as is, forever. They're just versions of GURPS.

Actually no...it's correct inasfar as this being indeed your argument. It's just that the argument itself is incorrect.

You haven't proved that.

Again, that's total bullshit!

Nope, that's kind of what defines a game. If it's a full game on its own and doesn't need any other stuff, then it's a game. If you aren't lacking necessary rules, then it isn't a separate quick start document for the full game, it's just a version of the game. Some of them might even be called quickstart rules. The Democratic Republic of Korea is not a democracy.

A quickstart is a set of rules that aims to introduce you to a bigger "full game" and get you to buy it, possibly by allowing you to play it without investing. Some people are actually happy with that and stick to playing with QS rules, but from the PoV of the publishers that produce the game, that's an unfortunate side effect.

That's again why quick start rules typically don't have a full set of rules, especially the ones for either character creation or character advancement (or both).

 

[raniE]

I'm really fucking confused.

If a rule document has all the rules you need to play the game and you can keep playing the game without ever getting any extra stuff, is it a game?

 

[Rich H]

If a rule document has all the rules you need to play the game and you can keep playing the game without ever getting any extra stuff, is it a game?

I don't know anymore!

 

[raniE]

I don't know anymore!

I think it's fairly simple. Pretend that whatever the "full version" of what AsenRG says is a quickstart doesn't exist. If you can still keep playing the "quickstart" without ever going "hang on, there's stuff missing here, clearly" I think it then qualifies as a full game. If not, then you've probably got yourself a quickstart set.

 

[Sloth_in_a_bowl]

So having done a comparison of Basic 5E D&D and BX D&D then the results are:

Game element	BX	Basic 5E
Character creation	Yes	Yes
Classes	7	4+ Multiclass
Levels	14	20
Equipment	Lots	Lots
Skill system	No	Yes
Monsters	Lots	Lots
Combat rules	Yes	Yes
Dungeon adventure rules	Yes	Yes
Spells	Lots	Lots
Magic Items	Lots	Not enough
Dungeon Creation rules	Yes	No
Wilderness creation	Yes	No
Wilderness adventure rules	Yes	No

Overall
BX D&D lacks a skill system , but so did AD&D at that time. The first Gazetteer fixed this issue.
Basic 5E lacks the tools for a GM to create dungeons and wilderness areas as well as having a surprising lack of magic items

If I had to chose then BX D&D is the more complete system and I could add skills with half a page of notes, but Basic 5E is surprisingly good for a freebie.
I am surprised that Basic 5E didn't lower the peak level and have a few pages dedicated to dungeon design and more magic items.

 

[raniE]

So having done a comparison of Basic 5E D&D and BX D&D then the results are:

Game element	BX	Basic 5E
Character creation	Yes	Yes
Classes	7	4+ Multiclass
Levels	14	20
Equipment	Lots	Lots
Skill system	No	Yes
Monsters	Lots	Lots
Combat rules	Yes	Yes
Dungeon adventure rules	Yes	Yes
Spells	Lots	Lots
Magic Items	Lots	Not enough
Dungeon Creation rules	Yes	No
Wilderness creation	Yes	No
Wilderness adventure rules	Yes	No

Overall
BX D&D lacks a skill system , but so did AD&D at that time. The first Gazetteer fixed this issue.
Basic 5E lacks the tools for a GM to create dungeons and wilderness areas as well as having a surprising lack of magic items

If I had to chose then BX D&D is the more complete system but Basic 5E is surprisingly good for a freebie. I am surprised that Basic 5E didn't lower the peak level and have a few pages dedicated to dungeon design and more magic items.

Remember that three of the classes in B/X are Dwarf, Elf and Halfling, which instead show up as races in 5e. So the only real difference there is that 5e offers more options for demihumans (as class restrictions have been removed). You even still somewhat get elven fighter-mages despite there not being any multiclassing as every high elf knows some magic and every elf has some weapons training, so you can play an elf fighter with some magic, or an elf wizard who can also use a longsword or a longbow.

 

[AsenRG]

Nope, because you seem to have a really strange defintion of a quickstart.

My definition fits the existing quickstarts in the hobby. Yours doesn't. And it's my definition that's strange?

No there are no pre-made characters in D&D Basic, and there are no character creation rules in the current Call of Cthulhu Quickstart.

CoC, maybe no, but I explicitly pointed out other examples. The world of RPGs ain't limited to WOTC and Chaosium.

The point of a quick start is to let you play for a short bit without having the rules

"My definition fits the existing quickstarts in the hobby. Yours doesn't."

That's part of the experience in every game though, and quick start rules always have pre-made characters,

I already pointed out examples of quickstarts that don't, not planning to address that topic further.

Not that I can find no. So you'd be wrong there. They want you to start with the Starter set, which has incomplete rules and pregenerated characters and an adventure. Not with Basic D&D.

I don't know what TRoS is here (The Riddle of Steel?) but GURPS doesn't have a quickstart set.

The Riddle of Steel indeed. And the author of the QS is on this forum.
Also, GURPS does have a quickstart, a.k.a. GURPSLite. No, it's not a separate game.

Maybe not, but we do know what makes a full game.

Do we, though? There's no rule that you have to have advancement rules, for example.

Spellcraft & Swordplay has a basic set which it introduces like this: "Now, we present a free PDF introductory "Basic Set," akin to those games in the legacy which S&S honors." So either B/X is a quickstart or Spellcraft & Swordplay's Basic set isn't. Which is it?

So what makes you assume he's talking about B/X and not, for example, Holmes? The one that Vile Traveller already called "prototype QS", as opposed to B/X?
IMO, it's obviously inspired by Holmes, which also limits advancement to 3rd level.

Need to Know seems to lack several things from the full Delta green rules, like weapons, even directing you to "Get the other entries from the Agent’s Handbook" when it comes to weapon stats. It only has info about a small handful of skills and the info about special training is that the handler will tell you if your agent has any special training. Nothing about how the Handler should assign these. It seems surprisingly completely, but there's clearly important bits missing.

Sure there are, but you can definitely play a game or even participate in a campaign. The Handler can get the equipment stats just as easily from Internet, given that it's a modern game.
Same for the special training. I have a large list of bookmarks offering me various approaches to that...that I'm not pursuing because I don't want the hit on the rating of my Anchors...

Then they aren't quickstarts. A rule document of over 100 pages for instance is not a "quickstart" because there's no way you're getting started with that quickly.

Bullshit.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

"This beautifully illustrated 122-page PDF includes:

• Character creation rules and options;
• Detailed rules for travels, combat and adventuring;
• A complete magic system, with over 100 spells;
• Attack tables and Critical Strikes;
• Dozens of creatures for your heroes to face"

Bottom line, I get the distinct impression that you're trying to make realoity fit your preconcieved notions instead of the other way around.

No they aren't , they're complete games. GURPS Lite and Ultra Lite can be played as is, forever.

Same as many other quickstarts.

They're just versions of GURPS.

Yes, quickstart versions that aim to make you get those corebooks...and maybe a supplement or two...or maybe another one...

I don't know anymore!

...OK, I'll drop this tangent. Not like either me or raniE are going to persuade each other, anyway!

 

[Fenris-77]

I'd probably just write a ribbon for however many races, including human, and leave it at that. Lessening the mechanical impact of race on the game is fine and I don't think the game loses anything by it. My favorite OSR game doesn't even address race and it works just fine.

Edit: I was thinking of the other thread when I wrote this...

 

[raniE]

My definition fits the existing quickstarts in the hobby. Yours doesn't. And it's my definition that's strange?

Your definition doesn't make any difference between a game and a quickstart, nor does it require that a quickstart be a quick way to start you off playing the game.

CoC, maybe no, but I explicitly pointed out other examples. The world of RPGs ain't limited to WOTC and Chaosium.

Ok, but you were explicitly talking about the D&D Basic set having premade characters there, in response to me saying it didn't (specifically in contrast to the Call of Cthulhu quickstart rules). So why are you saying you were talking about other games now?

"My definition fits the existing quickstarts in the hobby. Yours doesn't."

Your definition doesn't leave any difference between a full game and a quickstart, nor does it require that the quickstart version actually be quick to start with, considering a 128 page book fits in there, making "quickstart" a completely redundant and meaningless term.

I already pointed out examples of quickstarts that don't, not planning to address that topic further.

And I pointed out that they're not actually quickstarts under a definition that respects the words "quick" and "start" and recognizes a difference between a full game and a quickstart set.

The Riddle of Steel indeed. And the author of the QS is on this forum.

Ok, the game seems to be mostly gone from the internet, so I can't really check them out, sorry.

Also, GURPS does have a quickstart, a.k.a. GURPSLite. No, it's not a separate game.

Yes it is.

Do we, though? There's no rule that you have to have advancement rules, for example.

Yes, you have to be able to play the game fully. We can look at boardgames as well. Many boardgames have a quickstart rules sheet in the box which explains the basics of the rules to get you started and playing, rather than someone reading a full rulebook. However, questions can come up in play which can't be answered by this sheet, and then you have to go to the full rules, meaning that the quickstart sheet was not actually enough to fully run the game, just to get you started. If the quickstart rules were fully sufficient to run the game, and no questions would come up, then that wouldn't be a quickstart sheet, it would just be the rules of the game.

So what makes you assume he's talking about B/X and not, for example, Holmes? The one that Vile Traveller already called "prototype QS", as opposed to B/X?
IMO, it's obviously inspired by Holmes, which also limits advancement to 3rd level.

Because the text mentions "games" in plural, so it would be a very odd interpretation to think that meant only Holmes. And Basic D&D, you know the B in B/X, only went up to third level, as did the Basic box in BECMI. Every set in TSR D&D marked Basic only went up to third level. To go further, you needed to get the Expert set (and then so on with BECMI). This seems like an attempt to not have to walk back wither your claim that this was a quickstart ruleset or that B/X isn't a quickstart, by insisting that "games" means only specific iteration of Basic.

Sure there are, but you can definitely play a game or even participate in a campaign. The Handler can get the equipment stats just as easily from Internet, given that it's a modern game.
Same for the special training. I have a large list of bookmarks offering me various approaches to that...that I'm not pursuing because I don't want the hit on the rating of my Anchors...

There is no mention of special training having anything to do with anchors or bonds in Delta green Need to Know. I guess this is something we'd need the full rules of the game for.

Bullshit.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

"This beautifully illustrated 122-page PDF includes:

• Character creation rules and options;
• Detailed rules for travels, combat and adventuring;
• A complete magic system, with over 100 spells;
• Attack tables and Critical Strikes;
• Dozens of creatures for your heroes to face"

Bottom line, I get the distinct impression that you're trying to make realoity fit your preconcieved notions instead of the other way around.

So suddenly it is important if it says quickstart or not. Again, Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. Is it a democratic republic just because it has those words in its name? A 122 page book does not qualify as a quick way to jump into a game to test it out, which is what quickstarts are all about, that's literally in the name of the term. That's just a freeware version of the game.

Stars Without Number has a very similar thing, it has the free version of the revised edition, and the deluxe version which costs money. The free version is a complete game and there's no mention of quickstart or it being a quick way to get to playing. Meanwhile the deluxe version is noted as also containing the following:

• Transhuman tech, with rules for bodyswapping, digital identities, post-scarcity economics, and just as importantly, GM guidelines on making exciting adventures when all the old pillars of familiarity have fallen away.
• True AIs, the vast and terrible intellects that can bring forth wonders and ruin in equal measure. Playing a synthetic VI or aspiring organic godmind? Learn how your PC can accumulate the tech they need to ascend to this new plane of being.
• Mechs, for those GMs who relish the thunder of steel titans on their far-future battlefields.
• Heroic PCs, for groups that want to trade the gritty, lethal tone of a standard campaign for classic space opera, with larger-than-life heroes and superhuman skills.
• Society creation, customizing a world or a hab with its own culture and history, pre-designed with fault lines and conflicts to engage your heroes. You'll get more than a dry recounting of details; you'll get the information you need to build adventures that fit with this world's smouldering tensions.
• Space Magic, with rules and guidelines for introducing sorcerous powers and old-school magic into your starfaring adventurers, with sagacious Magisters, versatile Arcanists, and Adepts graced with supernatural powers.

None of that is necessary for a game of Stars Without Number. Transhuman tech, true ai, mechs and space magic aren't core parts of the game being left out, they're optional bits. The free edition is also 210 pages long. You don't get a quick way to test out the game by leaving out rules for mechs in a game where mechs are just an optional extra you might want to add.

If they released the full text of The 5e Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master Guide as a free pdf and called it a quickstart version, would you agree that it was? What if they removed 10 magic items, 10 monsters, 10 spells and some of the DMG info on the different planes of existence to make it a few pages shorter? Would it suddenly be a quick way to jump in to play the game then? At some point, a product simply is too big, has too much functionality as a standalone game and has too little utility as a way to quickly jump into playing the game to call it a quick start set.

...OK, I'll drop this tangent. Not like either me or raniE are going to persuade each other, anyway!

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

There was a point during the discussion when I was really confused because I read "Basic D&D" and I thought it was about Basic D&D by Moldvay...

I couldn't care less about the existential meaning of "Quickstart rules" BUT I want the World to know that Basic Moldvay is a complete game by itself.

BY ITSELF, sir ! [slams fist on the gamin table]

That's the molehill I'm prepared to die on. With minis, diaporama, hex paper and confusing rules "cough* OD&D *cough*. Because if we can't shed blood over RPG minutiae, what are RPGs good for, by Crom !?

 

[raniE]

There was a point during the discussion when I was really confused because I read "Basic D&D" and I thought it was about Basic D&D by Moldvay...

I couldn't care less about the existential meaning of "Quickstart rules" BUT I want the World to know that Basic Moldvay is a complete game by itself.

BY ITSELF, sir ! [thumps fist on the gamin table]

That's the molehill I'm prepared to die on. With minis, diaporama, hex paper and confusing rules "cough* OD&D *cough*. Because if we can't shed blood over RPG minutiae, what's RPGs are good for anyway, by Crom !?

It partly is. My contention is that the modern Basic D&D, which is a complete ruleset, is the equivalent of Moldvay Basic, or rather Moldvay Basic and Expert.

 

[Grognard GM]

diaporama

They put medication in the box? Metal!

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

They put medication in the box? Metal!

I meant "diorama" ! Damned Anglo-Saxon idiom !

 

[Sloth_in_a_bowl]

It partly is. My contention is that the modern Basic D&D, which is a complete ruleset, is the equivalent of Moldvay Basic, or rather Moldvay Basic and Expert.

I would contend that the biggest failing of Basic 5E as a Moldvay BX style intro is the BX had a load of scenarios written to be 100% compatible with that ruleset. Now there may be 5E scenarios that do not go outside the scope of the Basic 5E rules in terms of NPC powers, monster powers, magic items etc, but I do not remember any being marked up as Basic compatible. This alone makes Basic 5E a dead end of a rulebook in comparison to Moldvay BX.

 

[Bunch]

B/X is a complete ruleset. I believe at the time it was intended to give people the familiarity with D&D and they would grow into AD&D (because then Gygax got more money)
It just turned out some folks didn't want to graduate to AD&D. Fortunately they were smart enough to say some money is better than none and support Basic as a ongoing separate line.

 

[AsenRG]

I would contend that the biggest failing of Basic 5E as a Moldvay BX style intro is the BX had a load of scenarios written to be 100% compatible with that ruleset. Now there may be 5E scenarios that do not go outside the scope of the Basic 5E rules in terms of NPC powers, monster powers, magic items etc, but I do not remember any being marked up as Basic compatible. This alone makes Basic 5E a dead end of a rulebook in comparison to Moldvay BX.

You mean it cannot be used instead of the complete game WotC are actually producing and for which those materials are? Color me...unsurprised, sir!

/bad British butler emulation

 

[Grognard GM]

/bad British butler emulation

Wait, like the impression is bad, or you're an evil butler from an Edwardian murder mystery?

 

[AsenRG]

Wait, like the impression is bad, or you're an evil butler from an Edwardian murder mystery?

Yes.

 

[raniE]

I would contend that the biggest failing of Basic 5E as a Moldvay BX style intro is the BX had a load of scenarios written to be 100% compatible with that ruleset. Now there may be 5E scenarios that do not go outside the scope of the Basic 5E rules in terms of NPC powers, monster powers, magic items etc, but I do not remember any being marked up as Basic compatible. This alone makes Basic 5E a dead end of a rulebook in comparison to Moldvay BX.

I think a lot of the adventures are compatible, as creature stat blocks and such are often repeated in the adventure as is. However, even if it had almost no compatible content (which I don't think is true), that would make it unsupported, it wouldn't make it not a game. Personally I think they should have done a lot more with the basic set, but that's not the direction WotC went with it unfortunately.

 

[deflagratio]

Overclassification is how you end up with "No True Scotsman" arguments about everything. Too much definition means nothing actually meets the requirements. The key requirement for a Quickstart is in the name itself. It should be a document/product designed for quickly allowing players to experience some form of the game in questions, often with a goal towards convincing the players to purchase the more robust version of the game and it's expansions. Quickstart guides can be free or have a cost, although the purchase price should be low to meet the goal of attracting new players. Tools often used to accomplish this (but not all are required) are:

Simplified Rules (Only what is needed to play the pre-written module)
Pre-generated Characters
Pre-written modules
A low page/word count (I would personally throw out sub 50-75 pages with copious art and white space as strong guidelines)

Quickstarts are distinct from "Beginner" Editions of games in that a "Beginner" edition focus on providing a more robust ruleset (but still less complex than the "Advanced ruleset") designed for continuous play.

 

[cryptkeeper]

I can clearly recall the first time I heard about roleplaying games. Late 70's. I was in 6th grade. I was on a chairlift with another kid who was on vacation. He couldn't stop talking about DnD. I had no idea what he was talking about specifically. But one thing came through. You could play your own character in an imaginary world and there were rules so there were actual stakes, not like playing make-believe. The other thing that came through immediately is whatever it is he is talking about I needed to get down on, as soon as I could! The kids chatter absolutely electrified me. So DnD was my gateway because it was the only thing like it that I knew existed. I was groping in the dark for something I didn't even know what it looked like. But I also, after getting my own copy of Moldvay Basic, understood I got the concept of the roleplaying game from that first introductory conversation with a stranger. Roleplaying games were not dependent on just one product, one genre. That you could play anything you want once you learned the rules. It was only later that I actually discovered other games. So people who were/are married to one game, one genre, one thing, they taught me one thing. Not everyone is as in to ttrpg's as I am. I would be most happy in the hobby by playing with like-minded souls. That has served me well all these years pushing the boundaries between my known/not known experiences with the concept.

 

[raniE]

Overclassification is how you end up with "No True Scotsman" arguments about everything. Too much definition means nothing actually meets the requirements. The key requirement for a Quickstart is in the name itself. It should be a document/product designed for quickly allowing players to experience some form of the game in questions, often with a goal towards convincing the players to purchase the more robust version of the game and it's expansions. Quickstart guides can be free or have a cost, although the purchase price should be low to meet the goal of attracting new players. Tools often used to accomplish this (but not all are required) are:

Simplified Rules (Only what is needed to play the pre-written module)
Pre-generated Characters
Pre-written modules
A low page/word count (I would personally throw out sub 50-75 pages with copious art and white space as strong guidelines)

Quickstarts are distinct from "Beginner" Editions of games in that a "Beginner" edition focus on providing a more robust ruleset (but still less complex than the "Advanced ruleset") designed for continuous play.

And a rulebook that is 122 or 180 pages long, with no scenario or pre-gen characters doesn't fit into that idea of what a quick start is supposed to do, start things quickly.

 

[deflagratio]

And a rulebook that is 122 or 180 pages long, with no scenario or pre-gen characters doesn't fit into that idea of what a quick start is supposed to do, start things quickly.

For me it would not. 122-180 pages is about half the size of a standard novel. A standard novel has a general expectation of being read in approx 1 week. Novels are generally easier to read than reference works. So at the size we could likely estimate it taking 4-5 days for someone to fully read that rulebook. That's a lot of investment before ever playing a game.


While the ATDM pdf linked earlier calls itself a quickstarter. I would agree it is more similar to "Basic"/"Beginner edition productions than to a product designed to give a quick taste of the real thing. It's definitely priced at a point to get people to try the game, and the rules are simplified beyond the base game, but I agree the time commitment to try the game is too much.

Edit: I do appreciate what ATDM is doing with their titling and pricing. Many others who sell Quickstarters would be at the same pricepoint, and it's a search term people would be using to find out more info. But if we were to establish 3 tiers of core mechanics works (Quickstart, Basic/Beginner, Advanced/Complete), it would fit my definition of a Basic edition.

 

[deflagratio]

One fascinating example of Quickstart is actually found in the Core book of Ace & Eights. They start the book with a very basic version of their combat system to allow people to play shootouts and running gun battles. It introduces the core gimmicks/unique mechanics of the game (Shot Clock and the initiative system).

 

[sharps54]

Boot Hill did the same thing. It was pretty standard for hex and chit wargames as well.

 

[AsenRG]

I count novellas as "one day of steady reading or three days of intermittent reading". So it's still a quickstart for me.