Rolemaster Unified is too ugly for this Earth

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Sable Wyvern said:
Yes, it's probably fair to say the actual situation is far more complex than my outsider summary suggests.

Still, even though I discovered that a cleaned up RMSS is what I wanted, I could have understood something more heavily rooted in RM2. I don't really understand what audience they're looking for with some of the stuff I've seen in RMU -- it seems to be built specifically to appeal to a small subset of the existing audience, and that's a bout it.

Of course, it's also true that I haven't looked all that closely -- I checked out some playtest documents a long time ago, and never looked closer or followed things after that.
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My goal for an RM Revision was to make it more like RM Express (which actually turned out LOTS simpler than HARP), but then to have an option that could swap out the entire skill system to something more RMSS-like with a simple conversion for it (that would allow ICE to focus on a single version)

The folks currently running things did not like that idea (mostly because the revamp would have ICE likely dropping HARP products in the long run, or reworking it to make closer to what was originally envisioned for it, and they did not like that either....
 
Rasyr said:
My goal for an RM Revision was to make it more like RM Express (which actually turned out LOTS simpler than HARP), but then to have an option that could swap out the entire skill system to something more RMSS-like with a simple conversion for it (that would allow ICE to focus on a single version)
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That sounds like a pretty decent option to me. In fact, it comes very close a "something to make everyone happy" option.
 
Mankcam said:
It would be good if RM's setting Shadow World was revisited and further developed with good quality artwork and whatnot. It was a really decent Classic High Fantasy world to game in, I spent several years in my late teens inmersed in that setting which my mate was running. The more recent books had godawful CGI style art which looks really souless now. I would love to see that era plus the earlier era line revisited with rich artwork and good quality production standards, just to give it the love the setting deserves.
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This is unlikely to ever happen. When I worked for ICE, Terry AMthor had full control over Shadow World. And since his passing, I doubt that anybody will take it up or if they do would be able ot do as well as he did with it.
 
Mankcam said:
That could work equally well, and be far less challenging at the table.
From memory Tim Dugger did this with a game after he finished HARP, I think this may be a new version of those rules.
It looked like HARP with D10s. I'll take another look at this one, but I suspect it's the same game
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While there are some similarities to Novus 1e, Fantasy Express is based mainly on Against the Darkmaster. (I did pull some of my ideas from Novus for it though).
 
Spartan said:
It's a 2d10 version of Against the Darkmaster, though obviously it does diverge quite a bit. Nonetheless, it's very cool. Rolling over 20 gives you Success Levels to spend, replacing the normal criticals with Boons, for example. That fits all on one page too, so no more flipping pages to get critical results. There are lots of cool manoeuvres in combat as well. If you're into having cool special abilities for your weapons, this is the game for you. It also seems incredibly hackable if you want to build an unique weapon. It's a surprising combo of tight design and the ability to be all loosey-goosey with your house rules if you like. Remember the kynac and long kynac from Rolemaster? It was basically just a falchion +10 with some AT mods or something, I don't remember. In FX, you can actually model it as differently as you like, or not bother at all. You want to add more combat boons? Go right ahead. Decide how many success levels it costs, decide the effect, and you're done. Six success levels is an insta-kill, one success level can be a knock prone or a few extra hits of damage, and three can be a disarm, for example. Figure out where your Boon fits relative to that, and you have a whole new custom "critical". Easy peasy. Get involved in the playtest, it's pretty great.
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I acutally always thought of the Long Kynac as more of a Smallsword (regardless of the table used), so if you wanted a Long Kynac/Kynac combo in FX, I would suggest a Smallsword/Parrying Dagger (made of Nerok - a shiny black metal that gives a +2 to hit and to damage)

Yes, when you make an attack, you do the Damage Rating of the weapon, plus +1 hit for each point your roll was over 20 (up to the Damage rating, so up to double the base damage). You also learn success levels

You can spend them however you like (Note I have a combat example showing this on DriveThruRPG), for extra damage AND/OR other benefits/options in combat.....
 
Mankcam said:
I see that there is some art recycled from HARP Fantasy and Novus in that pdf, so I guess its the successor to both, via lots of influences from VsD
I think I'm still likely to go with VsD as my ICE game, but this has intrigued me as well, so I've put it in my DrivethruRPG wait list
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If there is any art in Fantasy Express that was in HARP, it would have been art I purchased from DriveThru (I know I have a couple of pieces in my library from one of the HARP artists).

As for art from Novus, yes, I have recycled art, because it is expensive, so if I have a piece that I have the right to use in multiple works, I will continue to do so....
I also recently got some art from Jeff Laubenstien (who also did art in HARP), but I haven't got much, and I haven't yet used most of what I do have.
 
Akrasia said:
I believe Rasyr was planning to use it as the basis for the new edition of Rolemaster (so, using a streamlined version of RM 2e rather than fiddle with RMSS). But those plans -- along with RMX -- all disappeared when the "new ICE" took over.
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Along with almost everything I ever wrote for ICE...... The guys who took over were essentially attempting to erase my contributions.

Akrasia said:
It's a shame, since RMX was a rather excellent intro product. A complete version of Rolemaster -- in 88 pages!
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thank you
 
Mankcam said:
Unless you were a hardcore Rolemaster fan, I would honestly just get Against The Darkmaster these days
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Sable Wyvern said:
As a huge RM fan with zero interest in Against the Darkmaster for myself, I concur simply based on general feedback I've heard regarding AtD.
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I fully agree - if you are an RM fan of any type, get Against the Darkmaster

If you are interested in something that is sort of like that, but lighter than Against the Darkmaster, then look at my stuff.
 
Sable Wyvern said:
That sounds like a pretty decent option to me. In fact, it comes very close a "something to make everyone happy" option.
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That was my goal. give somehting for both the RM2 and RMFRP groups that they might use moving forward, while also making it easier to access for players new to RM..

The goal was a single core book, that could then be expanded into a fuller RM experience (like Arms Law, more spells, a RMFRP-like skill system, etc...)

Before my personal website crashed last year, I had one article that layed out my product plan and what it would have been like. I'll have to repost it there.... I still have the proposed product plan I wrote up to guide my revision....
 
pawsplay said:
I was excited about Rolemaster Unified, both as nostalgia, and also because I actually contemplated getting back into Rolemaster. A few months ago, I sold my hard copy. The main reason is that it's incredibly ugly. I feel a little silly saying it, but it's just not something I could treasure, being filled with weird and often bad art. There are some artists who turned in workable pieces. Other pieces of art are just shocking for a professional product. Especially for something that may not get played, I was just not happy with the overall appearance.
I find myself wondering, how did this happen? Did they set an unfathomably small art budget? Did they just hire friends? Does the person making the book just have little ability to discern what looks good? I have so many questions.
View attachment 80756View attachment 80757
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At Least it is not Dolls, like Cyberpunk v3

2CPthedreadedthirdedition.jpg


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Rasyr said:
Yes, I like the smaller range, but also like the bell curve. (all of my games are 2d10 rather than d100).
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Just to clarify, I am not saying it's a bad decision. I like mid-centered randomizers, too:grin:!

It's just surprising for me, because it looks to me like it would require to rework the skill ranges as well (I.e. a skill of +20 would mean very different things in 2d10 roll over and 1d100 roll over:shade:).

It can definitely be done well, and from the feedback and what I think I remember from The Big Purple, I have no reasons to doubt you did a stellar job:thumbsup:!


Thank you for the AtD recommendation, I'll read it instead of searching for a classless level-less version of Rolemaster (which is my first instinct::honkhonk:).
 
AsenRG said:
It's just surprising for me, because it looks to me like it would require to rework the skill ranges as well (I.e. a skill of +20 would mean very different things in 2d10 roll over and 1d100 roll over:shade:).
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Oh yes, One would immediately think that a +20 in d100 translates to +4 in 2d10, and it can in some situations, but not in others, that is where the breakpoints for the various Success Levels come in, to try and smooth that out some....

If you download eaither character sheet, the FEAT (Fantasy Express Action/Task) table is on every character sheet so you can see the ranges and the modifiers for difficulty levels. :smile:
 
Mankcam said:
A random search on the net brought this pic up, which I recognised as the Rolemaster books we mainly used in the 1980s.
My GM went through different books in the 1990s, but always returned to these. Possibly out of nostalgia, but he always felt this was the best ruleset warts and all. We played this on and off until he moved us into HARP Fantasy sometime in the 2000s

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While I had the older books as well dating back to 1980-82, the pictured books were the version I ran/played along with both versions of MERP back in the1980s. I did purchase HARP in recent years and own AtDM, though I've yet to really embrace either AtDM or HARP. I still feel more comfortable with 1e/2e MERP or RM 1e/2e.

Gotta admit the best two mapping companies back then were I.C.E or Columbia Game Harn material. I loved all those maps maybe because I am a hyperphantasia type of person, but those maps all really popped for me and really helped me vividly imagine those worlds.

Also, I'll second and third J JoeNuttall about not purchasing perfect bound books if you can help it.
 
Acmegamer said:
Gotta admit the best two mapping companies back then were I.C.E or Columbia Game Harn material. I loved all those maps maybe because I am a hyperphantasia type of person, but those maps all really popped for me and really helped me vividly imagine those worlds.
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Pete Fenlon drew almost all of the MERP maps, if not all of them.

Personally, I actually preferred the Columbia Game Harn maps (still do, even over the maps I make for my own setting using Wonderdraft (you can see my setting maps here -- https://anwyn.firehawkgames.biz/maps.html -- there is also a menu item where I posted my City maps).
 
Sable Wyvern said:
Oh, that boxed set was still RM2? Those are the poorly laid out, terrible font ones I was referring to.
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Yes. RM1 was, to my knowledge, the original individual books, where Character Law and Campaign Law were separate, etc. The McBride cover version was cleaned up, used clearer fonts for the crit tables, and had some FAQ Q&A discussions. The paper used wasn't quite as robust as the near-card used in the first RM2 version, which caused some concern with people I knew, but it turned out okay.
 
Rasyr said:
I fully agree - if you are an RM fan of any type, get Against the Darkmaster
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For some reason it just doesn't quite do it for me. Perhaps it enough bulkier than MERP that if I want MERP I'll just use that, and if I want more I'll be looking at some version of Rolemaster (most likely not RMU, though there are a few things in there that look swipeable for use elsewhere).
 
Acmegamer said:
Also, I'll second and third J JoeNuttall about not purchasing perfect bound books if you can help it.
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I agree, the stapled versions of Arms Law were best, I think.

Of course, your copy of any Arms Law from the original ICE may not perfectly match any other version... One of the things we learned in doing Rolemaster Classic is that the original ICE tended to tweak the combat/critical tables between every printing.... (I believe that I was told that Coleman was responsible for this heheh).
 
Rasyr said:
I agree, the stapled versions of Arms Law were best, I think.

Of course, your copy of any Arms Law from the original ICE may not perfectly match any other version... One of the things we learned in doing Rolemaster Classic is that the original ICE tended to tweak the combat/critical tables between every printing.... (I believe that I was told that Coleman was responsible for this heheh).
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I understand that whoever did it didn't keep a change log, either (or if they did it's long lost).
 
Sharrow said:
I understand that whoever did it didn't keep a change log, either (or if they did it's long lost).
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I was told that Coleman was the one who made all the different changes to Arms Law for RM2. And that he was constantly tweaking it between printings....

I was also told that he never checked any of the option inteh RM Companions for balance and was of the opinion "If they used it, its their own fault" (referring to gamers). My understanding is that he was quite the character (I think I met him once when I went to the ICE offices in regards to the proposed Bladelands setting (based on the Bladestorm minis game, which was part of Shadow World, but the Bladelands would have been only the continent of Folenn AFTER Shadow World was destroyed -- traveling through space in a magical bubble), and then once when he came by the offices to talk to Bruce when I worked for ICE...
 
Rasyr said:
Oh yes, One would immediately think that a +20 in d100 translates to +4 in 2d10, and it can in some situations, but not in others, that is where the breakpoints for the various Success Levels come in, to try and smooth that out some....

If you download eaither character sheet, the FEAT (Fantasy Express Action/Task) table is on every character sheet so you can see the ranges and the modifiers for difficulty levels. :smile:
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Thanks, I'll check them.

Before checking literally anything, I'd say the ranges would be based on a +3 if I was making a 2d10 system. This gives you 1 autofail and 6 ranges of success out of 19 possible results. Of course, I'd have skills giving you +3 per level and attributes counting 1:1, which us probably not what you are doing... :grin:
 
Rasyr said:
Pete Fenlon drew almost all of the MERP maps, if not all of them.

Personally, I actually preferred the Columbia Game Harn maps (still do, even over the maps I make for my own setting using Wonderdraft (you can see my setting maps here -- https://anwyn.firehawkgames.biz/maps.html -- there is also a menu item where I posted my City maps).
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Back in 1980-81 when I first cracked open a copy of "The Iron Wind", those maps were just so much better than anything coming from TSR, Judges Guild or Chaosium at the time. At least for me. Love your map btw. Really nicely done.
 
Rasyr said:
I was told that Coleman was the one who made all the different changes to Arms Law for RM2. And that he was constantly tweaking it between printings....

I was also told that he never checked any of the option inteh RM Companions for balance and was of the opinion "If they used it, its their own fault" (referring to gamers).
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We always understood the RMCs to be from groups' house rules, etc., and that everything needed to be considered with a view to balance and fit in your own game. We did wish that a there was a bit more balance in the various profession - compare Warrior Mage to Paladin to Noble Warrior in the RM2 companions.
 
AsenRG said:
Thanks, I'll check them.

Before checking literally anything, I'd say the ranges would be based on a +3 if I was making a 2d10 system. This gives you 1 autofail and 6 ranges of success out of 19 possible results. Of course, I'd have skills giving you +3 per level and attributes counting 1:1, which us probably not what you are doing... :grin:
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well, you are kind close.. though on the easy side, I did +4, and the last difficulty level is a 5 point gap, instead of 3 point.. heheh

Difficulty Modifier
Easy +4
Standard +/-0
Challenging -3
Hard -6
Very Hard -9
Heroic -12
Legendary -15
Mythical -20
 
Sharrow said:
We always understood the RMCs to be from groups' house rules, etc., and that everything needed to be considered with a view to balance and fit in your own game. We did wish that a there was a bit more balance in the various profession - compare Warrior Mage to Paladin to Noble Warrior in the RM2 companions.
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Yeah, more balance, at least just superficial balancing would have made it lots better overall, I think....
 
Rasyr said:
Pete Fenlon drew almost all of the MERP maps, if not all of them.
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He drew all the large scale colour area maps which join together to make a complete map of Middle Earth. The other maps weren't Pete's. Note that the 1st version of Angmar and Umbar had a different style of map, then the first version of Isengard had a different map to later printings so that the maps fit together. He also did similar maps for the other Rolemaster modules (World of Vog Mur etc.).

I loved them and they were a major reason for me collecting every different version of every MERP book!
 
Rasyr said:
well, you are kind close.. though on the easy side, I did +4, and the last difficulty level is a 5 point gap, instead of 3 point.. heheh

Difficulty Modifier
Easy +4
Standard +/-0
Challenging -3
Hard -6
Very Hard -9
Heroic -12
Legendary -15
Mythical -20
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Well, my first reaction was admittedly "+3+4+5+4+3" for 5 success levels, but that only fits if you're doing roll-under...:thumbsup:

Let me keep guessing: +4 because it's the only bonus, might as well make it count, and -5 extra because from +4 to -15, you are covering exactly the spread of the randomizer, plus an extra -5 gets you a nice round number...right:shade:?
 
AsenRG said:
Well, my first reaction was admittedly "+3+4+5+4+3" for 5 success levels, but that only fits if you're doing roll-under...:thumbsup:

Let me keep guessing: +4 because it's the only bonus, might as well make it count, and -5 extra because from +4 to -15, you are covering exactly the spread of the randomizer, plus an extra -5 gets you a nice round number...right:shade:?
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Yes, +4 instead of +3 because I liked it better.... and because I only have one step on that side of standard

In Against the Darkmaster, you have the same number of Difficulty Levels above Standard as well, and for it, it is +10 for each step and then double that (i.e. 20 points) for the last one. I tried 2 per step, 2.5 per step (both rounded down and rounded up), 3 per step, 4 per step (all with double on the last step), and nothing felt right until I did what I ended up with... :smile:
 
Sable Wyvern said:
That looks pretty damn good to me.

My only minor complaint is that I thought RMSS Arcane was really well done, and deserves a place. Actually, I'm also a big fan of the unique Fire and Ice take on the elements, and would want that to find a place as well.
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that was my starter list, and of course, there would have been additions to it...

I wrote that in 2009. Too bad it never came to fruition...

Though come to think of it, I could possibly take that list and adapt some things to Fantasy Express.... heheh :smile:
 
Reading my first Rolemaster*, in the form of Against the Dark Master Player's Guide, and I can say the following...

I'm positively impressed. So much to like here, although I'm kinda disappointed weapons don't seem to add to attack (unless I'm missing it)... yes, I did note weapon qualities.
Wounds are nice, too, combining wound effects and death-by-thousand-cuts HP.

The advancement is interesting, with ranks of skills adding different amounts to Combat Bonus. OTOH, the table there should have been repeated in text form, class by class, even if it takes more space!

The game as a whole could stand to be explained better, IMO. Also, tables upon tables are a barreer to entry. I mean, I've read scores and scores of games. If I need to re-read it (or if I say "I'll get back to this later"), imagine a new gamer falling upon it... yes, it needs more explaining.

One spell per level per magic skill? Those spells better be flexible.

*I almost wrote it Polemaster, for some reason:grin:!
 
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Spartan said:
Well that obviously makes too much sense and is too well thought out. I can't see how the current iteration is better than what you proposed. I do like the all in one, basic core book too. Expand as needed, good to go.
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That was the initial idea behind Rolemaster Express as well.....

1) Show that RM is not a difficult system by producing a single trim product with ONLY the core rules and what is needed to play (I did have ti implement a couple of options to smooth a few things out (such as the option that simplified figuring hit points, the original method was too complicated). -- This produced a product that was simpler than HARP... oopsey....

2) By expanding RMX with Express Additions, that allowed for a simple, controlled expansion, and showed that THAT model could and would work moving forward.

3) By having a smaller initial footprint and smaller buy-in cost, that was likely to attract more folk who were casually browsing for other system, and then allow us to capture them for the long term....

Basically the same principle as building muscles - start small and slow and build upon what was done before.....
We had the added hinderance of 2 versions of RM in the past, so we also had to figure out how to bring them along (rather than split the fanbase yet again -- something which HARP ended up doing as well - so that the RM fanbase is now basically split into 4.....)
 
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