Any Fans of GURPS?

[David Johansen]

...there's something GURPS doesn't have a spell for?

Toenails...the system is quite bereft of tonail spells.

I'm a bit confused about the flour explosions. I thought a five pound sack of flour was the standard material component for explosive fireball. And if a player brings it up in my game it will be from that point onward.

SJG is quite particular in their publishing interests. They want what they want.

I suppose at this point, now that I'm not running a store and frustrated that I can't get the products my customers want to buy, I'm just not really going in the direction they're going and our paths are diverging. It happens, it hurts a bit. But I don't expect they'll miss me.

 

[Agemegos]

I suppose at this point, now that I'm not running a store and frustrated that I can't get the products my customers want to buy, I'm just not really going in the direction they're going and our paths are diverging. It happens, it hurts a bit. But I don't expect they'll miss me.

They don’t miss me either.

 

[David Johansen]

The absence of a toenail spells school of magic saddens me as well.

 

[Ravenswing]

...there's something GURPS doesn't have a spell for?

Quite a bit! I've ganked or invented around twelve hundred non-standard spells. (This being part of what Acmegamer meant by the bonecrushing amount of work I've put into my setting and system revisions.)

And while none of them explicitly deal with toenails, I can think of numerous ones that affect them.

 

[AsenRG]

Quite a bit! I've ganked or invented around twelve hundred non-standard spells. (This being part of what Acmegamer meant by the bonecrushing amount of work I've put into my setting and system revisions.)

...there is "going above and beyond the call of duty", and then there's you!?!

And while none of them explicitly deal with toenails, I can think of numerous ones that affect them.

No doubt!

 

[David Johansen]

I've run a fair bit of GURPS Hogwarts. The magic system is actually a pretty good match. One thing I found necessary was the addition of missile versions of Excruciate, Stun, and Heart Attack. Getting Throw Spell is just too much work to reflect the availability of missile versions of other spells. There's a lot of things that need to be perpetual items or only available as potions but that's mostly a curriculum issue. I did have a player revolt when I wanted them learning The Least of Spells in their first year. Really it seemed pretty appropriate to me.

 

[Skarg]

Steve Jackson just didn't want to get pigeon-holed as "the toenail magic guy" - there are nails as spell ingredients in The Fantasy Trip.

And if GURPS Hogwarts sounds interesting, one might want to check out The T'reo School setting book for TFT.

 

[Sharrow]

The absence of a toenail spells school of magic saddens me as well.

Got you covered.

Hair Growth
Regular; Resisted by HT
Causes the subject’s hair and nails to grow at a million times the usual rate (meaning an inch of hair every five seconds and an inch of nails every 30 seconds). If left unchecked, such growth interferes with vision (as hair falls in the eyes), movement (as the subject trips on his beard) and handling ability (as nails get in the way). Some bald people appreciate this spell, while it lasts (baldness returns within about a month as the hair falls out naturally).

Duration: 5 seconds.
Cost: 1 to cast. 1 to maintain.
Prerequisites: At least five Body Control spells.

Item
(a) Any item; always on. Hair starts growing an hour after the item is put on and grows for an hour after the item is taken off. Energy cost to create: 100.
(b) Staff or wand. The item must touch the subject. Energy cost to create: 250.

Haircut
Regular; Resisted by HT
Trims the subject’s hair (beard, mustache, fur, etc.) as the caster sees fit. To determine the aesthetic quality of the job, roll against Barber skill (a DX/Average Professional Skill). Can also be used to shear sheep, pluck chickens, or to trim the subject’s nails. The spell will not blunt the subject’s claws or horns although it may give them a manicure).

Duration: The trim is instantaneous, the cut matter falling at the subject’s feet.
Cost: 2.
Time to cast: 2 seconds.
Prerequisites: Hair Growth.

Item
(a) The effect may be made permanent (preventing hair from growing back) for 10 times casting cost.
(b) Headgear. The item trims the hair of whoever puts it on, to the style specified by the creator. Energy cost to create: 150. (c) Staff or wand. Energy cost to create: 300.

 

[David Johansen]

But tonail death spells like when Hawkeye uses his fingernails to kill a room full of people in Ultimates II.

 

[Sharrow]

But tonail death spells like when Hawkeye uses his fingernails to kill a room full of people in Ultimates II.

It's true that neither Magic: Artillery Spells nor Magic: Death Spells has such a thing. A terrible oversight on Kromm's part, to be sure.

 

[Ravenswing]

...there is "going above and beyond the call of duty", and then there's you!?!

Eh, look. The degree to which my degree of effort can be called astonishing has its limits. For so many degrees of detail, I've been told repeatedly that I should publish it ... but my ongoing answer is that I've cheerfully ganked so much from other writers and filed off the serial numbers that it'd be impossible for me to determine at this point what I wrote and what someone else did. My largest city has a writeup of over 250 pages, but the foundation for it is Midkemia's Carse.

You've also heard my thoughts on building cultures, and I'll put up links to these two blogposts again: Exotic Settings: The Land of Loh (I), Exotic Settings: Lohvian Cuisine (II). As I mentioned before, they both have healthy doses of filing off the serial numbers from various Wikipedia articles on Malay and Indonesian cultures, with a strong dose of Tekumel thrown into the stewpot. I'm considerably more adaptive than creative, I've always felt.

Finally, two other factors. First, I've been at this for 45 years now; of course I've put a lot of detail down. Second, I'm a retired househusband with a lot of time on my hands, and have a wife who (a) does a lot of private sessions where she eats up setting detail in carload lots, and (b) is very eager for me to keep my mind working in as high a gear as possible to stave off some of the more unpleasant aspects of aging.

 

[Brander]

I am specifically focusing on the game system here, not the supplements, the supplements are top-notch, but they are like 90% detail and 10% or less rules, so not specifically game system related. I still very much like those.

...

Bulletproof Nudity is a very optional rule I've never seen anyone I've played with treat as anything other than a joke option.

Other story-ish options include the Luck advantage, or other meta advantages such as Weirdness Magnet or Signature Gear, which I simply never include/allow. ...

I ran Gurps from the mid 80s to the early 2000s through all the editions of those times and I've seen all of the above regularly, though weirdness magnet being the most common, not bulletproof nudity (which I have allowed a couple times).

Yeah, buying success, like Luck, is almost never something that people I've played with would even consider using. If/when we use anything like that, it tends to have very carefully restricted rules, AND a thought-out gameworld rationale.

In my experience your experience is not at all representative of the decades of Gurps I ran/played with groups on my own, and demoed at conventions as a MIB (I was a MIB for a decade or so). Out of hundreds of players across the US (and a couple other places not in the US) I've never met a meatspeace player who even remotely gave a shit about this sort of thing. I'm still pretty convinced it's a minuscule minority of players, who just happen to frequent forums and post a lot. And more power to you, it's just not my experience nor overall preference (though I'm sometimes in partial agreement).

Neither have I. Truth be told, the original list of cinematic combat options seems to have had more play as tvtropes.com Trope Namers than at the gaming table.

I'm pretty sure I recall a lot of the cinematic stuff coming right out of Kromm's games from my recollection of my time on the Gurps Forums. I'm also a veteran of Gurpsnet, so I go way back, but I don't recall Kromm being on Gurpsnet (though that's a long time ago, so anyone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong). I'm pretty sure I nonetheless recall a fair bit of cinematic options and so-called "storygaming" (though not by that term) elements being mentioned over the years from various Gurps folks.

The rest is in general and not a reply to anyone specific:

Gurps Lite and Ultra-Lite are a thing, it's never been how they leaned the game overall (and I think that's a shame, because that's where it shines). Just enough Gurps to get the job done is how I found it worked best. Even the books with Lite built in seemed to suggest that very much as a starting point to get you into the whole game.

That all said, I moved away from Gurps to BESM and then to Savage Worlds (as my main games, I've run other stuff in the middle) mostly because I found that how I ran Gurps didn't work for serious Gurps players (as opposed to the 95% of people who didn't care). I realized that Gurps ran best without points* and with as minimal rules as necessary for the game and setting I was running. I found that Gurpsheads want EXTRA SUPER HEAVY Gurps (every rule from every book**) while I liked something between Lite to Medium-Lite (meaning Lite plus a couple extra rules). And while most of my players weren't Gurpsheads and I was deliberately showing people that you didn't need all of Gurps always on to run it, it was annoying to deal with the one or two people who just couldn't imagine I wasn't using every possible rule possible (and I can still probably run a fairly heavy Gurps mostly from memory). So my problem with Gurps was serious Gurps players disrupting my games that showed Gurps working great without every rule always on. I actually like point systems but Gurps has never had a well made point system because it was always a weird mix of rarity, utility, arbitrary real-life measure (x points per y hours) and theoretical power (and to his credit, I think Kromm has more or less always said so, it's the entire reason that the "Unusual Background" advantage exists).


*Seriously, yes. The worst thing about every edition of Gurps is the point system, it's all over the place and they mean nothing at all despite best attempts and explanations. AT BEST they are "this is how common this is in this game and setting." How I did character generation: Here's the book (or books), make a character, I don't care about the points, pick what makes sense within the genre, setting and power level I just told you, show me your character and if it's not way out of bounds I'll approve it. I did this for years towards the end of my Gurps career and you know what, I almost NEVER had to turn down a character and in 99% of the situations where I did need to change something, I had to have them up their ability not downgrade it. I was able to do this at conventions with unfamiliar players and get a game running quickly without pregens (I usually brought pregens too).

**I understand the desire and while there are some obvious rules contradictions it has seemed to me that Gurps tends to attract players who want more rules rather than less.

 

[Ravenswing]

I've run a fair bit of GURPS Hogwarts. The magic system is actually a pretty good match. One thing I found necessary was the addition of missile versions of Excruciate, Stun, and Heart Attack. Getting Throw Spell is just too much work to reflect the availability of missile versions of other spells. There's a lot of things that need to be perpetual items or only available as potions but that's mostly a curriculum issue. I did have a player revolt when I wanted them learning The Least of Spells in their first year. Really it seemed pretty appropriate to me.

I was VERY satisfied with Least of Spells ... however much my hissing of "It took you bastards thirty-five f***ing years to have the guts to put a canonical birth control spell into the system?!?" was venomous enough to send the cats fleeing in terror from the room.

But then again I feel strongly that mages, in any sane society, are not going to predominately be paramilitary, and that the majority will no more have combat spells than any of you go to work every day with an assault rifle slung over your shoulders or are skilled in MMA. The first GURPS article I wrote was on "minor magics," and several of them made it into Grimoire.

 

[Sharrow]

I was VERY satisfied with Least of Spells ... however much my hissing of "It took you bastards thirty-five f***ing years to have the guts to put a canonical birth control spell into the system?!?" was venomous enough to send the cats fleeing in terror from the room.

Strike Barren has been around for some time, but it's a lot harder to learn, and the energy cost for the constant item is downright punitive. It's also not readily reversible. So yeah, I tend to agree with you on this. The funny thing is that Bio-tech has spells for meddling with pregnancy, inheritance, etc., and 4e retained Erotic Art from where ever it first appeared, so it's not as if the topic has always been forbidden. Oh, and one of the Low-Tech Expansions discusses pre-modern birth control.

But then again I feel strongly that mages, in any sane society, are not going to predominately be paramilitary, and that the majority will no more have combat spells than any of you go to work every day with an assault rifle slung over your shoulders or are skilled in MMA. The first GURPS article I wrote was on "minor magics," and several of them made it into Grimoire.

Absolutely, and looking at real world societies, and RL magical traditions, very high on the list of things they try and address are fertility, birth control, managing pregnancy and birth, and of course love potions and charms of all kinds. And ivory-tower professor of magic might not know that stuff, but all the folks magicians will know it.

 

[David Johansen]

I was VERY satisfied with Least of Spells ... however much my hissing of "It took you bastards thirty-five f***ing years to have the guts to put a canonical birth control spell into the system?!?" was venomous enough to send the cats fleeing in terror from the room.

The material component is a naked picture of your mom...

Anyhow, I agree with Ravenswing that the points system has always been absurdly inconsistant and arbitrary and has never once had a good system for scaling strength up and down. I think it would have been a big help to have kept powers and advantages separate in fourth edition. Anything supernatural just shouldn't be in the core advantages section as it is very setting specific. Costing supernatural abilities should probably be done relative to the availability in the setting. Especially for a game who's main advantage over HERO is handling realistic / gritty stuff better.

 

[Baulderstone]

On the topic of birth control and magic, I liked the way that longevity potions on Ars Magica made a person sterile. You can either reproduce or you can be immortal. You can't have both.

 

[David Johansen]

Tell that to Lazarus Long!

But from a game design point of view they're two effects that should be costed separately and the GM should simply require both in a given setting.

 

[AsenRG]

Tell that to Lazarus Long!

Or Zeus!

 

[Ravenswing]

... 4e retained Erotic Art from where ever it first appeared, so it's not as if the topic has always been forbidden.

I have it from Compendium I from 1996, so in some sourcebook between 1989 and then. With, of course, the omg-we-cant-REALLY-talk-about-S-E-X "This represents a general knowledge of advanced sexual technique. The exact game effects are left to the GM’s discretion" weasel wording. You may confidently presume I emitted a similar venomous hiss.

 

[David Johansen]

So you're the one who wrote GURPS Sex Moves?

 

[AsenRG]

So you're the one who wrote GURPS Sex Moves?

I'm not sure that follows.

 

[David Johansen]

Sex Spells at any rate.

 

[Sharrow]

I have it from Compendium I from 1996, so in some sourcebook between 1989 and then. With, of course, the omg-we-cant-REALLY-talk-about-S-E-X "This represents a general knowledge of advanced sexual technique. The exact game effects are left to the GM’s discretion" weasel wording. You may confidently presume I emitted a similar venomous hiss.

It is pretty funny how SJGames skirts around the issue. Of course most games don't go there at all, aside perhaps from some kind of 'seduction' skill. I remember being surprised when the D&D 3e version of Forgotten Realms listed contraceptive herbs in the price lists. That it mentioned slipping them into nobles' food to influence inheritances was a nice touch.

 

[Acmegamer]

It is pretty funny how SJGames skirts around the issue. Of course most games don't go there at all, aside perhaps from some kind of 'seduction' skill. I remember being surprised when the D&D 3e version of Forgotten Realms listed contraceptive herbs in the price lists. That it mentioned slipping them into nobles' food to influence inheritances was a nice touch.

The book of Passion has you covered! Page 23.





It's designed for Pathfinder 1st edition/DnD 3x.

 

[Ravenswing]

So you're the one who wrote GURPS Sex Moves?

There's such a thing?

As far as spells go, absolutely, in that giant heap of twelve hundred new spells, there are ones that deal with sex. There's a spell to produce physical arousal, one to induce psychological arousal, one that gives the target an orgasm. I can't imagine any society with magic developed to the level of GURPS Magic, other than militantly puritanical ones, that wouldn't have developed such spells long since.

 

[AsenRG]

There's such a thing?

As far as spells go, absolutely, in that giant heap of twelve hundred new spells, there are ones that deal with sex. There's a spell to produce physical arousal, one to induce psychological arousal, one that gives the target an orgasm. I can't imagine any society with magic developed to the level of GURPS Magic, other than militantly puritanical ones, that wouldn't have developed such spells long since.

I can't imagine many societies where those wouldn't be among the first to develop...

 

[David Johansen]

There's such a thing?

As far as spells go, absolutely, in that giant heap of twelve hundred new spells, there are ones that deal with sex. There's a spell to produce physical arousal, one to induce psychological arousal, one that gives the target an orgasm. I can't imagine any society with magic developed to the level of GURPS Magic, other than militantly puritanical ones, that wouldn't have developed such spells long since.

Sure, there was a "GURPS Sex" or something years ago that did martial arts style maneuvers for sex.

 

[David Johansen]

I can't imagine many societies where those wouldn't be among the first to develop...

Mage Hand

 

[AsenRG]

Mage Hand

Yeah, I've used this creatively and am planning to use it in this way again...

I'm talking about stuff.

 

[David Johansen]

At five silver a "Mage Hand" and an extra silver for a "Grease" cantrip there's no need to go risking your life in dangerous underground dungeons.

 

[AsenRG]

Sure, there was a "GURPS Sex" or something years ago that did martial arts style maneuvers for sex.

Google found it on...I think it's 4chan...

Not really surprising, on second thought!

At five silver a "Mage Hand" and an extra silver for a "Grease" cantrip there's no need to go risking your life in dangerous underground dungeons.

Hmm...so the effects stack, don't they?

 

[David Johansen]

I think effects stacking might be a slippery slope.

 

[Skarg]

The material component is a naked picture of your mom...

Anyhow, I agree with Ravenswing that the points system has always been absurdly inconsistant and arbitrary and has never once had a good system for scaling strength up and down. I think it would have been a big help to have kept powers and advantages separate in fourth edition. Anything supernatural just shouldn't be in the core advantages section as it is very setting specific. Costing supernatural abilities should probably be done relative to the availability in the setting. Especially for a game who's main advantage over HERO is handling realistic / gritty stuff better.

Yep.

I feel it was kind of a mistake (starting with 3e, made much worse in 4e) to even include basic magic and psionic rules in the Basic Set. Many games don't have either, the full books have better rules, and there are various versions and flavors each campaign can/should use. I agree that the supernatural abilities also shouldn't be in there (especially as done in the 4e Basic Set).

Those basic rules and other stuff could be provided free and/or as little booklets, but being inside the Basic Set is a waste of space for many people, and 4e shuffling in the weird traits alphabetically mixed with everything else, is noise unless you're (unwisely, I'd say) trying to run a kitchen sink campaign.

I feel the most useful and objective way to assess/rationalize points, is if they represent how difficult it is to acquire an ability. That way, it can make sense and be consistent with your game world, how much effort is required to acquire such things, and how common they'll be, etc.

 

[Skarg]

Naughty and Dice is another generic sexuality supplement, written by a GURPS GM (whom I played GURPS with for years - she's a great GM - even not really using any of that).

 

[Baulderstone]

I was reading through old issues of Dragon today. I came across a comprehensive review of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay from 1987 by Ken Rolston. He opens the review with an overview of the systems of their time and their usefulness for fantasy gaming. Here are his thoughts on GURPS.


It's odd to think there was a time when the primary criticism of GURPS was its lack of setting books.

 

[ffilz]

I was reading through old issues of Dragon today. I came across a comprehensive review of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay from 1987 by Ken Rolston. He opens the review with an overview of the systems of their time and their usefulness for fantasy gaming. Here are his thoughts on GURPS.
View attachment 68163

It's odd to think there was a time when the primary criticism of GURPS was its lack of setting books.

Oh, that's a good one :-) Does ANY other RPG publisher even come close on number and variety of settings?

 

[David Johansen]

First/Second Edition GURPS support was spotty. IRRC it went, Fantasy, Autoduel, Horror, Horse Clans, Humanx, Space, Supers, High Tech. And the wait for Space was really long, IRRC it was the first perfect bound supplement.

The Dragon reviewer eventually recanted on his belief that SJG couldn't support GURPS to the extent it required but I'm pretty sure we were to third edition then.

 

[Baulderstone]

The Dragon reviewer eventually recanted on his belief that SJG couldn't support GURPS to the extent it required but I'm pretty sure we were to third edition then.

Yes, I wasn't posting it as criticism of Rolston, who is a smart guy. Read another way, he is saying that GURPS really needs to pump out setting books to be a success, and he was right.

At the risk of thread drift, his thoughts on Runequest 3E are on the money. It's interesting that he later got hired as line developer and kicked off the Runequest Renaissance.

 

[David Johansen]

I liked RQ 3 myself, I could never get players into Glorantha. Sorcery was a bit broken if I remember right.

 

[Acmegamer]

I didn't see it as criticism, more an observation. At the time of the writing of that statement by Rolston the system was basically still new. 1st/2nd edition (box set) coming out in 1986 and third edition not releasing until 1988.