Does this supers game exist?

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jdrakeh

jdrakeh

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I have pretty much every genre of RPG well represented on my recently much downsized shelf of games except supers. And I'm not get familiar with what's out there right now in terms of current supers games, but I do know what I'm looking for:

1. Complete in one volume. I appreciate that some supers games break the rules up into multiple books detailing every possible mode of play and or adjacent topic (e.g. gadgets), but I don't need that level of detail AND it runs contrary to my goal of keeping my game collection confined to one shelf. ;)

2. Good rules for magic. I'd ideally like the rules to include provisions for creating a character like John Constantine. Or Doctor Strange. Something more than one power with a lot of handwavium. An actual system of building and using spells or spell-like abilities.

3. Hardcoded rules for creating characters of differing power levels (e.g., The Question, Batman, Superman, etc).

Is there anything currently on offer (or out of print but easily obtainable) that meets these criteria?
 
Me too.

I like the superhero movies, for the most part, and think it is one of the pillars of viable roleplaying genres - but I cannot find a supers game that manages to combine all the elements into something I consider classic.

However, the main Supers games out there include:

Champions - nominally the classic supers game, originally released in the 1980s. The latest edition is literaly called 'Champions Complete' as in it supposed to be all in one book. However, it's all a bit squashed in and isn't all that approachable for new players. In the case of point 2 and 3, it can do them - but it takes work.

Mutants and Masterminds - probably the market leader at the moment, with a more linear and straightforward system than Champions and better (full colour) production standards. The Deluxe core book is complete although there are gadget books and the like if you want. My issue with it is seems a bit shallow, but again it can do 2 and 3.

Icons - A rules lite game, certainly by comparison to the previous two. I don't like the cartoony art direction and there is inherently less flexibility in the design aspect of making supers than the former two. It sort of can do 2 and 3, with some parameters.

I'm not sure about "good" rules for magic, insofar that all these games use fairly generic magic systems. There are a few games like Mage: The Ascension or Unknown Armies that have very interesting and evocative magic systems, and can be used as sort of gritty supers games should you wish.
 
The versions of M&M that I'm familiar with (1e and 2e) don't do magic well at all (in the case of 1e) or don't do it well at all in the core book, but cover it in a supplement (2e). How appreciably different is 3e's approach?
 
jdrakeh said:
The versions of M&M that I'm familiar with (1e and 2e) don't do magic well at all (in the case of 1e) or don't do it well at all in the core book, but cover it in a supplement (2e). How appreciably different is 3e's approach?
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Probably more of the same, to be honest.
 
Blood of Heroes Special Edition is still available on Amazon last time I checked, at least in the States. It's essentially DC Heroes 3.5E. Just... ignore the art and setting. It's one volume, complete, and was designed for characters at multiple power levels. See this thread for why DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes is awesome.
 
Hmm. How are "spells and spell-like abilities" different from regular superpowers?
 
jdrakeh said:
The versions of M&M that I'm familiar with (1e and 2e) don't do magic well at all (in the case of 1e) or don't do it well at all in the core book, but cover it in a supplement (2e). How appreciably different is 3e's approach?
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3e is effects based (like the ultimate power supplement for 2e). If you are crafty with those sorts of systems, you can do whatever you want with it. The Gadget Guide and Power Profiles books are less about new rules and more about ready-made applications of the system.
 
jdrakeh said:
I have pretty much every genre of RPG well represented on my recently much downsized shelf of games except supers. And I'm not get familiar with what's out there right now in terms of current supers games, but I do know what I'm looking for:

1. Complete in one volume. I appreciate that some supers games break the rules up into multiple books detailing every possible mode of play and or adjacent topic (e.g. gadgets), but I don't need that level of detail AND it runs contrary to my goal of keeping my game collection confined to one shelf. ;)

2. Good rules for magic. I'd ideally like the rules to include provisions for creating a character like John Constantine. Or Doctor Strange. Something more than one power with a lot of handwavium. An actual system of building and using spells or spell-like abilities.

3. Hardcoded rules for creating characters of differing power levels (e.g., The Question, Batman, Superman, etc).

Is there anything currently on offer (or out of print but easily obtainable) that meets these criteria?
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I don’t remember how BASH Ultimate Edition handled magic, I can check when I get home, but it does cover different power levels and is very complete in one book.
 
jdrakeh said:
I have pretty much every genre of RPG well represented on my recently much downsized shelf of games except supers. And I'm not get familiar with what's out there right now in terms of current supers games, but I do know what I'm looking for:

1. Complete in one volume. I appreciate that some supers games break the rules up into multiple books detailing every possible mode of play and or adjacent topic (e.g. gadgets), but I don't need that level of detail AND it runs contrary to my goal of keeping my game collection confined to one shelf. ;)

2. Good rules for magic. I'd ideally like the rules to include provisions for creating a character like John Constantine. Or Doctor Strange. Something more than one power with a lot of handwavium. An actual system of building and using spells or spell-like abilities.

3. Hardcoded rules for creating characters of differing power levels (e.g., The Question, Batman, Superman, etc).

Is there anything currently on offer (or out of print but easily obtainable) that meets these criteria?
Click to expand...
2nd* or 3rd* edition Mayfair DC Heroes would fill your needs if you can get a copy that isn't too expensive; otherwise Blood of Heroes is the exact same game without the DC Comics intellectual properties. Look past the cruddy art and ignore the godawful setting used as an example in Blood of Heroes and it's actually an excellent game; it's essentially DC Heroes 3.5 edition. If you really additional magical options, there's also a Magic sourcebook by Dan Greenberg about which I have heard good things but I've never read it myself; however, there is no need to buy anything beyond the basic game whether it's the boxed set or the all-in-one book version. Any of the DC Heroes supplements should work fine with Blood of Heroes as well as the mechanics are the same between games. The only things that really changed between editions were the costs of powers and skills and how many points you get to build your character, and the changeover from 1st* edition to later editions that added advantages and drawbacks to characters, which were mainly little perks and quirks to give your character a little something different from another guy with the same basic abilities.

*1st edition works perfectly fine but the rules for building gadgets are better and make more sense in the 2nd and later editions. If you have any characters who are defined by their equipment (Iron Man, Batman), I'd recommend 2nd edition or later.
 
Tommy Brownell said:
AMP specifically didn’t touch magic until year 3 or 4. It also doesn’t have much allowance for varying power levels.
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Forgot about the varying powerlevels.
Also depends on what he is meaning about "magic" AMP talks about the superpowers being magic instead and running it as different group ala the Fairytail anime, Harry Potter, and so forth
 
I think that both the DC and the Marvel games of the 80s were great at handling a very wide power scaling. DC has a very formal exponential rating system while Marvel basically does the same thing but with far less mathematical rigor. Both work very well for that IMO. They're also all-in-one rules IIRC.

As for good magic rules in a supers game, the best I've seen is old school Champions. I haven't kept up with the more recent (ahem post-80's) but they older editions introduced the idea of a Power Pool of character points that can be used to simulate any power. When this is completely unrestricted (i.e. I can do anything up to a certain power level), it's a very expensive power. When it is more restricted, such as by limiting when the pool can be reconfigured or the types of powers that can be simulated, the cost approaches something reasonable.

The same concept can be used for a "Gadget Pool" or power copying or whatever. Without a doubt, Champions has one of the best systems for allowing you to create pretty much any kind of superpower you can imagine. It's pretty complicated, but since that complexity is packed into character creation, it doesn't slow down action at the table.

If only the rest of the system wasn't just as complicated, and it handled power scaling better, it would be just about perfect. The solution, of course, is to port the creation system to one of those other games. Good luck translating between exponential and linear power curves, though.
 
The problem with using Champions/Hero System's variable power pools for magic is that you will have to do one of the following:
(1) create a fixed number of "spells" for your character and stick to using only those during a game session
(2) stop your game for half an hour each time your wizard wants to perform a new trick and has to figure out costs for the new spell he wants to cast
(3) hand-wave your wizard's magic costs and potentially piss off the players who paid for their powers per the rules
 
Dumarest said:
The problem with using Champions/Hero System's variable power pools for magic is that you will have to do one of the following:
(1) create a fixed number of "spells" for your character and stick to using only those during a game session
(2) stop your game for half an hour each time your wizard wants to perform a new trick and has to figure out costs for the new spell he wants to cast
(3) hand-wave your wizard's magic costs and potentially piss off the players who paid for their powers per the rules
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I would never actually play Champions due to how cumbersome and slow it is for...everything. If you were to port this concept to another game, it would have to be one where it is simpler to determine the point equivalencies for various powers. I think this could totally work for MSH/FASERIP where you could just use column shifts to represent "expensive" powers.
 
The Mayfair DC game was what I used when I was rescaling Strength in AD&D 1e back in the day after converting Marvel Superheroes. Though DC used a 2x scale, and for D&D I made it the square root of 2 per increment. Blood of Heroes certainly sounds interesting. My go to system right now is a hack of Marvel Heroic using Cortex Plus, but that may not be your speed.
 
Dumarest said:
2nd* or 3rd* edition Mayfair DC Heroes would fill your needs if you can get a copy that isn't too expensive; otherwise Blood of Heroes is the exact same game without the DC Comics intellectual properties. Look past the cruddy art and ignore the godawful setting used as an example in Blood of Heroes and it's actually an excellent game; it's essentially DC Heroes 3.5 edition. If you really additional magical options, there's also a Magic sourcebook by Dan Greenberg about which I have heard good things but I've never read it myself; however, there is no need to buy anything beyond the basic game whether it's the boxed set or the all-in-one book version. Any of the DC Heroes supplements should work fine with Blood of Heroes as well as the mechanics are the same between games. The only things that really changed between editions were the costs of powers and skills and how many points you get to build your character, and the changeover from 1st* edition to later editions that added advantages and drawbacks to characters, which were mainly little perks and quirks to give your character a little something different from another guy with the same basic abilities.

*1st edition works perfectly fine but the rules for building gadgets are better and make more sense in the 2nd and later editions. If you have any characters who are defined by their equipment (Iron Man, Batman), I'd recommend 2nd edition or later.
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I don't think the Magic sourcebook would be needed with Blood of Heroes. One of the main things Pulsar Games did with it is expand the magic rules in the one rulebook because of the (horrendous) magic-heavy Blood of Heroes setting.
 
I can’t bring myself to buy a book that has art that I could have done in middle school.
 
Endless Flight said:
I can’t bring myself to buy a book that has art that I could have done in middle school.
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The art is really, really bad but I've learned to mentally block it for the most part because it's worth it to have the latest DC Heroes rules set in one comprehensive book that is still available in print, IMO.
 
Apparition said:
The art is really, really bad but I've learned to mentally block it for the most part because it's worth it to have the latest DC Heroes rules set in one comprehensive book that is still available in print, IMO.
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I ignore the art in a lot of games and try to focus on the actual text. I'm the weird utilitarian guy who would rather have no art than bad art, but it seems the majority wants full-color glossy art and a hardcover coffee table book format. I still think the best looking game ever was the original Traveller. :thumbsup: A lot of that is because that way my vision of the setting isn't influenced by some artist's notions and fancies.
 
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I prefer hardcover simply because it makes the books more durable and easier to hold, but yeah, I can do without the full-color glossy art. Give me a hardcover rulebook with black and white art and I'm good.
 
Apparition said:
I prefer hardcover simply because it makes the books more durable and easier to hold, but yeah, I can do without the full-color glossy art. Give me a hardcover rulebook with black and white art and I'm good.
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Well, I like a nice hardcover, I should have phrased that better...I meant more the needlessly thick coffee table books that seem designed more to be admired than to be read and used to actually play at your table.
 
Thanks for all of the feedback, folks. This definitely gives me some options to pursue. I'll get back to you and let you know what I end up snagging.
 
I'm partial to Supers! Revised myself, but that handles all powers with a considerable amount of handwavium so is definitely not what the OP is looking for. I still think it works almost perfectly, though.
 
I loves me some Champions Complete. But I would not touch it without Hero Designer, a compuer program to make characters.

Item 1: Yes, definitely.

Item 2: Yes, but you have to put some work into it. To make a spell (say Cone of Cold) you would choose the Blast power, then apply the Cone advantage. Then you'd apply some Limitations for how magic works in your world. Probably Requires gestures and Requires incantations. If magic in your world is skill-based, you would add Requires a skill roll and maybe Side effects (bad things happen if you fail that roll.)

Here's the cool thing about Hero. Say you wanted to make that spell into a Wand of Cone of Cold. Add Focus and Charges and BAM! Instant treasure.

It's fun building stuff. But if you want premade spells, get the Hero System Grimoire.

Item 3: Hero handles this with Character Points. Iron Man will have about 600, but Hawkeye about 200 (I'm going by my estimation of the MCU versions.)
 
You may want to consider Supergame 3E. I brought this back after 30 years and updated the system to something simple and fast. Everything you need is in the core book. Magic works differently from most other games in that characters can have mystic powers that allow them to change their powers line up at will -- basically, you get to pick a selection of powers each turn. And it has a number of scales from local heroes to cosmic entities.
 
brettmb said:
You may want to consider Supergame 3E. I brought this back after 30 years and updated the system to something simple and fast. Everything you need is in the core book. Magic works differently from most other games in that characters can have mystic powers that allow them to change their powers line up at will -- basically, you get to pick a selection of powers each turn. And it has a number of scales from local heroes to cosmic entities.
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That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for, Brett! Thank you for bringing it to my attention!
 
Dumarest said:
I dunno...I think he should be provisional until he changes his avatar back to Space Commander Travis. :shade:
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I like Dark Knight (even though he changed his name to Knight Protector).
 
brettmb said:
You may want to consider Supergame 3E. I brought this back after 30 years and updated the system to something simple and fast. Everything you need is in the core book. Magic works differently from most other games in that characters can have mystic powers that allow them to change their powers line up at will -- basically, you get to pick a selection of powers each turn. And it has a number of scales from local heroes to cosmic entities.
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Is there a place where we can get a look at examples of the rules? Also, is there an experience point award system for following tropes of your character, such as monologing for a super villain? (Presumably extra experience for combining it with a PowerPoint presentation)
 
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