How badly has D&D been mismanaged?

[Urdlen's best boy]

Didn't I hear the latest Baldur's Gate videogame was very successful?

I remember a crapton of D&D computer games in the early 90s.

Extremely so. According to their own reports it made 90+ million $ for them and without it D&D would have been losing money last year. It was hugely successful as a video game, one of the year's best sellers and getting a lot of praise and awards.

Historically D&D video games where hit and miss. Lots of the 90s ones were indeed spammed, few being good enough to make good money or survive the test of time and have had very variable success as result. Late 90s early 2000s there were some quality & successful streak but didn't last past 2004 or 2008 at most

They literally fired the company that produced BG3.

What happened is they fired the people who were Larian's contacts in WoTC. Later Swen announced he wouldn't work with them anymore but also made declarations about industry layoffs.

Whether the two are linked is the rumored part, though it is coherent with the fact Larian has always been vocally worried of working with publishers and other actors because of greedy short term practices like that. Also the fact WoTC seemed surprised.

I tend to think they would have likely went back to do their own stuff for a while anyway, since that is how Larian does protect it's longterm health, but might have been willing to work again with them later if not for that bridge burning - say one or two games down the line. From a buisness perspective it makes no sense taking long term engagement with a compagny where you're not sure you can always have the regulars you trust.

That last paragraph is speculation. Argumented, but still.

 

[Endless Flight]

Baldur’s Gate II was pretty big back in the 90s, even more so than BG I or Icewind Dale.

 

[Sable Wyvern]

Don’t forget Cloak and Dagger

That played as the second part of double feature I saw at the drive-in. I don't recall the first movie, which we were actually there to see, but the opening scene of Cloak and Dagger stuck with me.

 

[Willmark]

Baldur’s Gate II was pretty big back in the 90s, even more so than BG I or Icewind Dale.

That is certainly an understatement. Likely the biggest D&D RPG of all time thus far. Certainly one of the most impactful.

 

[chuckdee]

there was a short lived Blade TV series after Trinity, wasnt there?

People say there was a second Highlander movie also, but they're crazy too.

 

[chuckdee]

You mean Firefly?

I thought that was The Expanse

 

[TJS]

Uh...what's your source for that information? The way Larian Studio's Swen Vincke tells it, they walked away from their relationship with Hasbro (after canceling plans for a BG3 DLC) so they could work on their own IP.

Yeah I get the impression that the studio felt that the partnership was useful to build their reputation, but that now, having done so they really don't need D&D any more.

If they want to make their own crpg game setting for their next game they can probably bring a huge userbase over without needing to be constrained by a 50 year old property.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Yeah I get the impression that the studio felt that the partnership was useful to build their reputation, but that now, having done so they really don't need D&D any more.

If they want to make their own crpg game setting for their next game they can probably bring a huge userbase over without needing to be constrained by a 50 year old property.

I mean, it isn't like Larian hasn't been making their own original games that are critically acclaimed before BGIII. They've never had the financial success that they did with BGIII (they did well enough, but not BGIII well), but I bet when they make Divinity Original Sin III or whatever, a LOOOT of the playerbase will be there to play it.

 

[lategamer]

It was indeed a much better way of doing things. As someone who doesn't watch each and every Marvel movie coming out, the approach of tying them all together is not a good thing.

…

I also think it gives the producers/directors of Marvel movies a lot more freedom, if there isn't some overarching story to everything.

it seems to me that tie ins are more popular and standalone as tend to stink. (I may be basing this on …. Eternals)

 

[lategamer]

No doubt it suffered because it looked like a Marvel style franchise film in an era when most people are sick to death of them.

Narrator note: there is no evidence that people are sick to death of franchise films, from Marvel or anyone. There is plenty of evidence that online reviews do affect movie attendance but are not evidence of quality or lack thereof.

 

[TJS]

Narrator note: there is no evidence that people are sick to death of franchise films, from Marvel or anyone. There is plenty of evidence that online reviews do affect movie attendance but are not evidence of quality or lack thereof.

Falling box offices are not evidence?

 

[lategamer]

Falling box offices are not evidence?

Think about it.

They’re evidence of reviews. Or pages upon pages of Incels complaining about how Marvel is ruined with the M-She-U. YouTube and TikTok is filled with hairy men complaining about women in Marvel.


They’re not evidence of quality. How would people know the movie is bad when they haven’t seen the movie.

 

[TJS]

Think about it.

They’re evidence of reviews. Or pages upon pages of Incels complaining about how Marvel is ruined with the M-She-U. YouTube and TikTok is filled with hairy men complaining about women in Marvel.


They’re not evidence of quality. How would people know the movie is bad when they haven’t seen the movie.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I think you must have jumped to the conclusion that my words were indicative of some kind of broader positiion you've seen somewhere else. But, as I don't know what that's supposed to be your post is very difficult to make sense of.

I mean you seem to be regarding to some kind of position on my part about the quality of the movies - what is that?

 

[lategamer]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I think you must have jumped to the conclusion that my words were indicative of some kind of broader positiion you've seen somewhere else. But, as I don't know what that's supposed to be your post is very difficult to make sense of.

You stated people are sick of franchise films.
Evidence if the MCU franchise is that it's made a bundle and will continue to. Recent falls, like The Marvels, were more likely due to lack of promotion (from the writers/actors industrial action) and literally thousands of hairy comic fans complaining about women superheroes.
If you have evidence that the franchises are failing, I'd love to hear it.

So, Phase 4 movies
Dr Strange 2 cost 294M, made 955M
Thor 4 cost 250M, made 760M
Black Panther 2 cost $200M, made 859M
Eternals cost 236M, made 402M
Shang chi cost 150M, made 432M
Black Widow cost 288M, made 379M

Sequels were the high performers. Franchise Sequels. The other three (Eternals, Shang chi, Black Widow) weren't really part of any continuity. And performed poorly. That's evidence that people wanted sequels and franchises.

Phase Five
Ant Man 3 cost 326M made 476M
Guardians 3 cost 250M, made 845M
Captain Marvel 2 - The Marvels cost 274M, made 206M

These are all sequels too.

Phase Five has a poor showing so far but it has just begin. We'll see which way Deadpool and Wolverine shifts this curve. I reckon up (but will be countered by projected poor performance for Captain America 4 and Thunderbolts.). I think Phase Five will likely be regarded as the worst Phase of the MCU on box office.

Outside of the MCU
Jurassic World cost 150M, made 1.6 billion
Jurassic world dominion cost 265, made 1 billion
Jurassic world fallen kingdomn cost 432M, made 1.3 billion

and I'm sure the Kong/Godzilla and Planet of the Apes franchises are doing ok.

Any of this evidence that people are sick of franchises? Nope. Quite the opposite

 

[TJS]

You stated people are sick of franchise films.
Evidence if the MCU franchise is that it's made a bundle and will continue to. Recent falls, like The Marvels, were more likely due to lack of promotion (from the writers/actors industrial action) and literally thousands of hairy comic fans complaining about women superheroes.
If you have evidence that the franchises are failing, I'd love to hear it.

Dr Strange: Multiverse of Madness

Ok whatever. You complain that I don't have evidence and then present an alternative hypothesis with without any evidence either.

I prefer my explanation. I think indifference is a greater factor than angry fan boys.

(To be honest I think most of the angry fanboys are also sick of a lot of the stuff they are angry about - it's just they are often too entitled and lack the maturity to realise it).

Also the whole thing about angry fan boys reminds me of this old skit about hate watching.



I think indifference is far more damaging than hate.

 

[lategamer]

Ok whatever. You complain that I don't have evidence and then present an alternative hypothesis with without any evidence either.

I hit return too early. Have updated with numbers.

 

[CRKrueger]

People say there was a second Highlander movie also, but they're crazy too.

I have some recollection of something like that, but I chalk it up to cheap tequila.

 

[TJS]

I hit return too early. Have updated with numbers.

And how do those Marvel numbers compare with the numbers of the movies before? Is the trend up or down (especially if you don't discount the movies you seem to want to discount for arbitrary reasons)?

This seems to be be a personal bugbear for you but I don't really care. I also don't care whether or not Disney ultimately makes a profit or not, or whether the movies have dipped in quality (at best they were always, as the kids say, no more than 'mid').

Clearly the audience for Marvel is not what it was, which is what matters. You've not said anything to change my mind that the D&D movie would have had a much better chance of success had it been released before the pandemic and the at the height of Marvel's popularity.

Guardian's of the Galaxy showed how a D&D movie could work, but by the time they put that into action they were late to the party.

 

[lategamer]

And how do those Marvel numbers compare with the numbers of the movies before? Is the trend up or down (especially if you don't discount the movies you seem to want to discount for arbitrary reason)?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.
Iron Man (2008) cost 130M and made 585M so....the trend is up? (Iron Man did better than the three worst performing Phase 4 movies and worse than the 3 best performing Phase 4 movies. So I guess Iron Man was 'mid'?)

This seems to be be a personal bugbear for you but I don't really care. I also don't care whether or not Disney ultimately makes a profit or not, or whether the movies have dipped in quality (at best they were always, as the kids say, no more than 'mid')

Kindly refrain from ad hominem logical fallacies.
You claim the public are tired of franchises....which is plainly not true. As demonstrated - with MULTIPLE franchises.
Now you're saying the movies dipped in quality. Some did (I guess this would be evident if anyone has ever made anything. It's hard to predict what will be received well), but as a generic statement, it just doesn't bear fruit. some Phase Four did well, some Phase Five did well.

Clearly the audience for Marvel is not what it was, which is what matters. You've not said anything to change my mind that the D&D movie would have had a much better chance of success had it been released before the pandemic and the at the height of Marvel's popularity.

Good, because I wasn't debating that. I was just showing that the 'people are sick of franchises' argument is bullshit. Whether or not D&D was released at the height of Marvels popularity is specious. Franchises plainly work.

I'm not that interested in changing your mind, just refuting the fallacies you state as 'fact'.

Guardian's of the Galaxy showed how a D&D movie could work, but by the time they put that into action they were late to the party.

I'm not sure how that's relevant.
But anyway. I've proven my point (franchises work, there's no evidence of fatique) and I bid you good day.

 

[Acmegamer]

Oi! You lot! This was figured out within the first couple pages! Closing time! Move along now!

 

[Baulderstone]

Think about it.

They’re evidence of reviews. Or pages upon pages of Incels complaining about how Marvel is ruined with the M-She-U. YouTube and TikTok is filled with hairy men complaining about women in Marvel.

There is no need to call Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola and Jodie Foster incels just because they hate Marvel movies.

 

[TristramEvans]

There is no need to call Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola and Jodie Foster incels just because they hate Marvel movies.

Does Jodie Foster hate them? That makes me sad. She was a big Beavis & Butthead fan, so I thought she was cool.

 

[lategamer]

There is no need to call Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola and Jodie Foster incels just because they hate Marvel movies.

I've not seen their TikToks.

Scorcese only mentions his hatred of the MCU when he has a new movie to promote. None of them call the audience stupid for wanting to see them.

 

[Savage Schemer]

I mean, it isn't like Larian hasn't been making their own original games that are critically acclaimed before BGIII. They've never had the financial success that they did with BGIII (they did well enough, but not BGIII well), but I bet when they make Divinity Original Sin III or whatever, a LOOOT of the playerbase will be there to play it.

I'm probably in an extreme minority, but I actually think that Divinity: Original Sin 2 was an objectively better game than Baldur's Gate 3. That isn't to say I think BG3 was a bad game at all. I don't. But I also didn't bother to finish it because (to my surprise) I figured the D&D 5e rules were an active hindrance to my ability to enjoy the game, particularly the porting of long & short rests into the PC game (which you have to do all the damned time). DOS2 wasn't hampered D&D's rules and I think it was the better game for it. And its GM mode was downright amazing.

 

[Fenris-77]

Neither the opinions of a few Hollywood names nor shouty internet misogynists have anything meaningful to say about what 'people' think of franchises or the marvel movies specifically.

 

[Savage Schemer]

I know that I personally have burned out on "franchise" movies. I was completely into it from Iron Man through the Avengers movies, but I've skipped everything from Marvel that came after. These days I don't want that kind of mental / emotional investment in my movie entertainment. I mostly just want stand alone movies I can enjoy and then move on from.

 

[AsenRG]

Neither the opinions of a few Hollywood names nor shouty internet misogynists have anything meaningful to say about what 'people' think of franchises or the marvel movies specifically.

I'm neither a Hollywood name, nor a misogynist, but I'm definitely tired of franchises, and marvel movies in particular.

I mean, how the fuck do you even keep them straight and not see the same movie twice by accident, given the largely similar names?

 

[AsenRG]

I know that I personally have burned out on "franchise" movies. I was completely into it from Iron Man through the Avengers movies, but I've skipped everything from Marvel that came after. These days I don't want that kind of mental / emotional investment in my movie entertainment. I mostly just want stand alone movies I can enjoy and then move on from.

Stand! Alone!

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm neither a Hollywood name, nor a misogynist, but I'm definitely tired of franchises, and marvel movies in particular.

I suspect that means my comment wasn't directed at your posts then.

 

[AsenRG]

I suspect that means my comment wasn't directed at your posts then.

Warning: Today, I might not be quite in the mood for a serious discussion!

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I was an early burnout on franchise movies. The first few years, I thought it was cool. But they wore on me pretty quickly. That said, people like what they like. If folks want to see franchise movies, nothing wrong with that. My bigger issue as a viewer, and maybe this is changing as I haven't been keeping as current the past few years, is it felt like most movies for a while were franchise films. And even when I went to see a non-franchise movie, all I typically could hear was the rumbling and heavy sound of a franchise film in the next theater over (I distinctly remember this happening when I went to see Bohemian Rhapsody).

I do like genre films so I don't have a problem with there being an age of marvel franchise movies. They kind of occupy the space westerns occupied before. I am just mostly into other types of movies. Also I am not a big fan of snappy or bitchy dialogue, and that appears to be a feature of many franchise films (which again, I am not judging negatively as there is wit there, it just isn't the style of dialogue I tend to like)

 

[Baulderstone]

Does Jodie Foster hate them? That makes me sad. She was a big Beavis & Butthead fan, so I thought she was cool.

She doesn't hate them individually. If I recall, she liked Iron Man and a few others, so you can still consider her cool. She hates the movie franchise phenomenon, and hopes Marvel movies go away.

 

[TJS]

One thing I've noticed, just anecdotally from talking to people (although come to think of it this comes up with reviews too) is that people are really sick of movies that seem like they are trying to start up a franchise.

There's a sense they don't end properly, even for a Hollywood film.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Neither the opinions of a few Hollywood names nor shouty internet misogynists have anything meaningful to say about what 'people' think of franchises or the marvel movies specifically.

I don't know why we have to paint such differences of opinion over genre and aesthetics in such moral terms. Isn't it fair for some people to love franchise movies and some people to hate them? I wouldn't expect Martin Scorsese or Jodie Foster to be fans of these kinds of movies (and if they came out praising them, I would be very suspicious). On the other hand, I would totally expect a younger director like Kevin Smith to love them.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

She doesn't hate them individually. If I recall, she liked Iron Man and a few others, so you can still consider her cool. She hates the movie franchise phenomenon, and hopes Marvel movies go away.

Iron Man was one of the movies I remember enjoying

 

[BedrockBrendan]

One thing I've noticed, just anecdotally from talking to people (although come to think of it this comes up with reviews too) is that people are really sick of movies that seem like they are trying to start up a franchise.

There's a sense they don't end properly, even for a Hollywood film.

I guess too it depends on what we mean by franchise. I take it to mean here: comic or graphic novel based franchises. I like the Dirty Harry movies, for example. Those are technically a franchise. Nothing in the franchise comes close to the first one (though the Enforcer comes closest for my money). I am not opposed to solid franchises existing. I do think it is good to have a higher number of self contained movies and personally I would rather see more things win other genres

 

[Savage Schemer]

One thing I've noticed, just anecdotally from talking to people (although come to think of it this comes up with reviews too) is that people are really sick of movies that seem like they are trying to start up a franchise.

There's a sense they don't end properly, even for a Hollywood film.

Dark Universe, anyone?

 

[TJS]

I guess too it depends on what we mean by franchise. I take it to mean here: comic or graphic novel based franchises. I like the Dirty Harry movies, for example. Those are technically a franchise. Nothing in the franchise comes close to the first one (though the Enforcer comes closest for my money). I am not opposed to solid franchises existing. I do think it is good to have a higher number of self contained movies and personally I would rather see more things win other genres

I don't want to relitigate the argument from earlier, but I will note that I never really made the claim that people are sick of "all" franchises.

It doesn't seem, for example, that people are sick of Dune movies yet (We'll have to wait for God Emperor perhaps, or maybe Chapter House Dune sex magic).

 

[TristramEvans]

She doesn't hate them individually. If I recall, she liked Iron Man and a few others, so you can still consider her cool. She hates the movie franchise phenomenon, and hopes Marvel movies go away.

oh, I agree with her. Not necessarily go away, but I'd wish they'd make good movies again

 

[Self Saboteur]

I got sick of them after the third iteration of spiderman.