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That's a killer band name.Epicurean Trilemma.
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That's a killer band name.Epicurean Trilemma.
Yeah, lets not go there shall we? Someone might very reasonably believe the exact same thing about more modern religions and that's definitely a no go topic on the Pub, so we might as well stay consistent and avoid the historical relativism. Let's stick with the idea that during the Roman period it was a given for most people that their gods existed (as is the case with any time period).Of course it was. Because there were no such gods.
I think the term is more 'Agnosticism', or maybe more 'I don't mess with The Gods, maybe They won't mess with me.' as a sort of retaliatory belief.A good bit of ancient “atheism” was more “apatheism”: the gods don’t actually care about us, so I don’t care about them. That was a relatively common view among several Greco-Roman schools of philosophy, and famously exemplified in the Epicurean trilemma.
Can also mean its unknowable if there are gods or not.I think the term is more 'Agnosticism', or maybe more 'I don't mess with The Gods, maybe They won't mess with me.' as a sort of retaliatory belief.
When discussing religions, especially in a context like this where we can decide what's true by fiat, I like to start with the assumption not that the beliefs are true but that they're broadly consistent with the world as the believers experienced it, if only because our beliefs color our experiences.Yeah, lets not go there shall we? Someone might very reasonably believe the exact same thing about more modern religions and that's definitely a no go topic on the Pub, so we might as well stay consistent and avoid the historical relativism. Let's stick with the idea that during the Roman period it was a given for most people that their gods existed (as is the case with any time period).
I think the term is more 'Agnosticism', or maybe more 'I don't mess with The Gods, maybe They won't mess with me.' as a sort of retaliatory belief.
IIRC the term "agnosticism" was coined in the 19th century by Thomas Henry Huxley (brother to Aldous Huxley of Brave New World fame). It's a notion that I think requires a certain level of philosophical sophistication that only comes around during a civilization's age of reason. I'm not sure how well the idea translate to an experience of the world where the works of the gods are manifest in every harvest, hunt, and storm.Can also mean its unknowable if there are gods or not.
Indeed, that's why in my settings there is some doubt...did you see anyone in the after world you knew? No. Anyone I know? No. How did they seem in those Elysian Fields, happy but distant. Just enough to wonder, is it a Potemkin village, Stepford Wives situation.Well, until vsomel adventurers come back from an outer-plane trek and tell about the damned/blessed souls they met...
All hail Issek of the Jug!Worth noting that one of Leiber's criticism of Middle Earth was the absence of religion.
More importantly, Leiber wrote one of the finest fantasy short stories of all time with 'Lean Times in Lankhmar' which is also a model of a sympathetic yet satirical view of the role of religion. Religion is an important part of Lankhmar.
Well, typically in the literary sources you do. Odysseus and Aeneas do, Gilgamesh does (and wishes he hadn’t) and Dante seems to have met just about everybody who had died recently in Northern Italy, down to the guy who stiffed him for a salami in 1302 before succumbing to dysentery.Indeed, that's why in my settings there is some doubt...did you see anyone in the after world you knew? No. Anyone I know? No. How did they seem in those Elysian Fields, happy but distant. Just enough to wonder, is it a Potemkin village, Stepford Wives situation.
I kind of accept this argument, but only kinda. There's a big difference between a priest and flock praying that someone recovers fully from a stroke and a year later they're fine and a priest laying on hands and the stricken person gets up and dances.I would think visible signs of the gods being real would mean religions make more sense in D&D. But I also agree with Paws that for all intents and purposes, people living in prior periods where religion was how you saw the world, to them the presence of God or the gods was evident. So you can extrapolate from real world cultures fine I think. You can also think through the thought experiment of what it means when you have priests of gods wielding cleric spells in the PHB. Though I think sometimes that takes you to weird places
I kind of accept this argument, but only kinda. There's a big difference between a priest and flock praying that someone recovers fully from a stroke and a year later they're fine and a priest laying on hands and the stricken person gets up and dances.
Fantasy priests and clerics perform overt, unsubtle, unscientific, reproducible, MIRACLES.
In the Middle Ages, people might have thought there were Ogres, and some guy might have an old Neanderthal skull or something to "prove" it.
In Greyhawk, the blacksmith of your town picked up the sobriquet "Ogreslayer" when he split the skull of an Ogre that came into town and everyone in town saw it.
These thing are not the same.
Belief is not knowing, that's why they call it belief and not knowledge.
I've always imagined that the followers of these gods are people so traumatized, full of rage and desperate for revenge that they just don't care anymore, and they will do anything to get a little power in this world in order to inflict their pain on everyone around them. Sort of the school shooters of their setting. They don't have many worshippers because, well, it's kind of insane to worship them. But those who do are readily granted dark powers.It gets even trickier with those places of torment, where at least ala D&D cosmology you go there if you follow a certain alignment, if that is a certainty who in their right mind is of an evil alignment in the setting? How arrogant or deluded do you need to be to believe you can beat that system, and how powerful do you need to be to do so. I assume those of such alignments in a D&D setting figure they will be the tormentors and not the tormented.
"It's better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven."I've always imagined that the followers of these gods are people so traumatized, full of rage and desperate for revenge that they just don't care anymore, and they will do anything to get a little power in this world in order to inflict their pain on everyone around them. Sort of the school shooters of their setting. They don't have many worshippers because, well, it's kind of insane to worship them. But those who do are readily granted dark powers.
In addition, the Ruinous Powers can just...lie. Even in a high fantasy world, most people don't visit the Outer Planes. There are people in the real world who believe that the Earth is flat! "Are you going to believe those self-righteous liars? They just want to enslave you in this world and the one that follows!"
This is some thing I think the ACKS setting does much better than D&D: the Lawful religions teach that some time after death you will be reincarnated into a new mortal body, while the Chaotic religions teach that this is just a pretty lie covering up the truth that your soul will perish just like your body did, and so true immortality is to be found in undeath.I've always imagined that the followers of these gods are people so traumatized, full of rage and desperate for revenge that they just don't care anymore, and they will do anything to get a little power in this world in order to inflict their pain on everyone around them. Sort of the school shooters of their setting. They don't have many worshippers because, well, it's kind of insane to worship them. But those who do are readily granted dark powers.
In addition, the Ruinous Powers can just...lie. Even in a high fantasy world, most people don't visit the Outer Planes. There are people in the real world who believe that the Earth is flat! "Are you going to believe those self-righteous liars? They just want to enslave you in this world and the one that follows!"
From GURPS Religion Page 137It gets even trickier with those places of torment, where at least ala D&D cosmology you go there if you follow a certain alignment, if that is a certainty who in their right mind is of an evil alignment in the setting?
How arrogant or deluded do you need to be to believe you can beat that system, and how powerful do you need to be to do so. I assume those of such alignments in a D&D setting figure they will be the tormentors and not the tormented.
Please do not think that one of these views was held a long time ago and that the other has gradually taken its place. Wherever there have been thinking men both views turn up.
"Lord of the Flies" is a great example, about one wondering how this could arise as the true life event that was based on bears no resemblance to the story, i.e. the kids did help each other and didn't turn on each other. Now as a larger commentary on society at the time.......More than a few will go, "But it is fantasy," but your reaction illustrates the problem of trying to create a setting with a culture that has long (centuries) been practicing a truly Malthesist religion. It is hard to figure out how to roleplay characters from that culture. Their motivations and goals rapidly descend into some horrific "Lord of the Flies" type situation. Leaving a person wondering how this would ever work in the first place.
Agreed. People almost always have the view there way is right, "good" etc. I don't see that as hard to grasp at all.Again, it is important to note this is not about how one culture interacts with another. For example the Spartans and the Helots (descended from tribes that Sparta conquered). As abhorrent as that situation was, the Spartans did not believe they were following an evil religion, although nearly everybody else in Greece found their ideas and philosophies repellant. Although they were not above accommodating the Spartans to get help with threats external to Greece like the Persians.
Also, your previous point was still correct. Because it's not about what proof is available, it's about how much people are influenced by it.But all this only makes religion make more sense. If the Gods are real and evident, then surely you must follow the teachings of churches and priests dedicated to them? The only thing that makes less sense in a world like this is not being religious
On the argument about past belief. My point wasn't that they are identical. A person believing in witches in the middle ages is not the same as a person in a fantasy world turned to a newt by a witch (because witches in the medieval and early modern era were a product of Christian imagination). Belief in a prior period shaped peoples view of the world, it didn't shape reality itself. But I think a lot people living in the present underestimate the impact that worldviews have on how people see reality
Also, your previous point was still correct. Because it's not about what proof is available, it's about how much people are influenced by it.
I mean, if proof was enough to change minds, flat earthers would only need to look at pictures, right?
Hence, the proof of the existence of witches makes no difference to the people who already genuinely believed that witches exist!
Now, the physical presence of the proof itself, coupled with a preacher, might just push them to do something about it*, but that's all.
*Amusingly, I think I've played a DCC funnel which started kinda like this! To give the authors more credit, they also noted that strong spirit was involved, too...
Superb post Xanther, and also a nice hook for adventures (I'd love to play in the context you describe, and see how a revolution unfolds and the masses react when faced with the truth guarded by the elites).Agreed. People almost always have the view there way is right, "good" etc. I don't see that as hard to grasp at all.
What the premise I believe here, and huge difference between what we see day to day and a fantasy world, is an actual afterlife/place you can visit and people have visited, and adventure in, and come back and tell the tale...also the very powerful can actually build a gate and visit.
So the powerful will have first hand knowledge of what the afterlife is like. Then it becomes a question of does every one who follows a certain path automatically go to Tartarus and if so is it eternal torment for all or not? IF you automatically go there and automatically get tormented, very unlikely anyone who knows that will follow a path that leads to Tatarus, perhaps that is why Lichdom is the way for powerful necromancers.
There is the rub though, who knows that? How certain is that knowledge? Now the common folk have less knowledge and thus this can be exploited, to tell them no Tartarus isn't what they say, it's not all torment all the time for everyone.
I guess for me it comes down to doubt. As I am the author of my own setting, it's easy enough to build in doubt, and good to keep in mind what the game books tell us is not what the average setting NPC knows I've my ways to build in doubt in the cosmology and interesting to see the ways of others.
It's true that people underestimate how deep historical peoples' belief in the supernatural was. I think it's overestimated, however, how much you can extrapolate to actual fantasy settings based on belief alone.But all this only makes religion make more sense. If the Gods are real and evident, then surely you must follow the teachings of churches and priests dedicated to them? The only thing that makes less sense in a world like this is not being religious
On the argument about past belief. My point wasn't that they are identical. A person believing in witches in the middle ages is not the same as a person in a fantasy world turned to a newt by a witch (because witches in the medieval and early modern era were a product of Christian imagination). Belief in a prior period shaped peoples view of the world, it didn't shape reality itself. But I think a lot people living in the present underestimate the impact that worldviews have on how people see reality
True, but there's not a single one of them that has anyone who can call down a pillar of fire on command. Or Raise the Dead.It is also worth stating that religious experiences are still a thing, even in today's world. There are people today who will sharply disagree on whether or not they have seen or felt supernatural events. And there are entire cultures that profoundly believe in the supernatural, ghosts, a god or gods, etc.
True, but there's not a single one of them that has anyone who can call down a pillar of fire on command. Or Raise the Dead.
It's true that people underestimate how deep historical peoples' belief in the supernatural was. I think it's overestimated, however, how much you can extrapolate to actual fantasy settings based on belief alone.
It wasn't just belief; it was also a culture's rationalization of how the world worked. For example, an individual suffers trauma, disease, or some type of health event. Said individual in a state where they appear to be dead. But then the local healer/priest/shaman/etc, feeds them an infusion with a heavy simulant, which jolts them back awake.It's true that people underestimate how deep historical peoples' belief in the supernatural was. I think it's overestimated, however, how much you can extrapolate to actual fantasy settings based on belief alone.
Ahhh but do we not still scribe magical spells of well wishes upon a cast to guarantee good healing?....Circa 3,000 BC, similar information was wrapped in a culture's view of magic and religion. At its heart, it is still roughly the same information we learn today. But it overlaid with a bunch of stuff we moderns would consider irrelevant but was viewed as essential for taking care of broken bones for that culture at that time.
Thanks Lessa, personally I use a different form of doubt combined with less guarantees inspired primarily by the ancient Egyptian books of the dead. That is, once you die your "soul" does not necessarily get to it's final destination immediately. There is a journey through the astral sea, and you could get lost or snatched or tricked along the way.Superb post Xanther, and also a nice hook for adventures (I'd love to play in the context you describe, and see how a revolution unfolds and the masses react when faced with the truth guarded by the elites).
Really like this stuff. Is this canon D&D though? Can't remember reading this, well at least not in my Planescape books. hahaThanks Lessa, personally I use a different form of doubt combined with less guarantees inspired primarily by the ancient Egyptian books of the dead. That is, once you die your "soul" does not necessarily get to it's final destination immediately. There is a journey through the astral sea, and you could get lost or snatched or tricked along the way.
Hence the importance of funerary rituals, last rite, proper burials, knowing the proper prayers and things to say to ensure you get there. Also why dying certain ways or places makes a difference. Also why having high belief is important, as that can get you a personal escort by the servitors of your deity; that and you also likely know exactly what to say and how to say when if confronted by another deities servitor (almost always one from those afterlives that are places of torment) trying to trick you so they can "steal" your soul...there are rules after all, they just can't snatch it.
We've actually included this in our games when a PC gets killed the game isn't over, if they can get to their home or preferred afterlife then much easier to bring them back, makes investment in those religion / belief "skills" more useful. I even give out xp for this afterlife journey and it became a running joke as getting 500 xp the hard way (as that was how much xp one player's PC got the first time we did this), they eventually got him raised.
Also on actual tiny scrolls. Thankfully pharmacists are trained in Read Magic.Ahhh but do we not still scribe magical spells of well wishes upon a cast to guarantee good healing?
Except there is. It's called Cure Cancer.True, but there's not a single one of them that has anyone who can call down a pillar of fire on command. Or Raise the Dead.
It was mentioned in 1E Deities & Demigods (1980) but never developed and detailed, and seemingly completely ignored by everything that came later (presumably because TSR was scared of the parental backlash of going into too much detail about “this is how the afterlife REALLY works, kids”).Really like this stuff. Is this canon D&D though? Can't remember reading this, well at least not in my Planescape books. haha
This is not canon D&D in any sense that I know. May be heretical though These concepts on no guarantees, etc. have been using since about 1979 or so for my fantasy RPG setting. In '79 we used a mix of OD&D and AD&D rules (IIRC we were not able to get a copy of the DMG in our area until 1980) with a dash of homebrew and a few Dragon articles, by '85 the rules had evolved into there own thing...and continued to evolveReally like this stuff. Is this canon D&D though? Can't remember reading this, well at least not in my Planescape books. haha
Just pulled out my 1E Deities & Demigods (the first printing). What I describe is not there. There is only a repeat of the alignment coded planes of existence, different afterlife planes, and this weird nested geography and alignment coded circle of planes, but never used that.It was mentioned in 1E Deities & Demigods (1980) but never developed and detailed, and seemingly completely ignored by everything that came later (presumably because TSR was scared of the parental backlash of going into too much detail about “this is how the afterlife REALLY works, kids”).
What you need to do is game in a world without imagination.Maybe I'm too traditional in my fantasy games but I can't conceive of a fantasy game without religion.