How important is Strength for Melee combat really?

[AsenRG]

Let me start with the answer: I'd say RQ/Mythras approach of making Str matter in a fight, but skill to matter more, is the best example regarding the balance of realism and mechanics.
The idea of Focus as a separate stat is also intriguing. Please tell us more!

Well, I’ll start by saying Conan is frequently described as highly agile as well as incredibly strong. And I agree that strength is sometimes undervalued in dexterity.

I would use them equally if you can. Mythras has them weighed equally in combat skills as well as athletics, acrobatics, and unarmed, and I like this (as far as skill goes at least). Strength is part of what determines damage modifier (along with size). Dex is added to INT to determine actions and average with INT to determine initiative bonus.

for what it’s worth, I just hate single god stats. I think it’s poor game design and too many have done it.

Yes, Conan is actually a guy who has never, AFAIR, met someone faster than him, though in some cases it was a close call at least (or possibly the Cimmerian was even outmatched). But he won mainly through a combination of bravery, experience and killer instinct...backed up by strength, speed and reflexes.
I'd argue that this is so because REH actually had first-hand experience in fighting (though only his boxing is documented to an extent...but honestly, read his sparse descriptions, and you can appreciate that he had felt similart things first-hand, or at least witnessed them a lot and was a keen observer).

You'd note that I didn't put any single physical stat as more important than the rest of them. That's because bravery, experience, and killer instinct are way more important, IMO.

To put it another way...there's Mr. Yang Jwing-Ming who trained with lots of people who had loads of experience applying martial arts techniques. He also teaches martial arts, writes books, makes DVDs and apps about martial arts. What he feels is most important?

Well, here's an interview with him about martial arts in North America...

Spoiler: The most relevant part

"What are the goals of Chinese martial culture or martial society? What were the traditional martial arts really trying to cultivate? First bravery, second power, third gongfu (in the traditional sense of the term). Or to put it slightly differently; first, speed; second, power; third, proper techniques."

If you'd notice...power is always mentioned as a very important factor, but ultimately on second place. That's mostly my opinion as well.
He has an additional explanations in his books BTW why that is so. Basically, for the first set: if you lack bravery, you're going to lose. (Boot Hills had it right!) If you're equal in that, but you're more powerful (which assumes both the ability to apply and take strength...bravery is assumed in this set!), well, you don't need many techniques to destroy the enemy. In fact, a part of your power comes from drilling those techniques you do know to make them "powerful".
And if you're about equal in both: who applies the technique faster and more appropriately is going to matter.

Second set: even with a limited technical arsenal, speed means you can act decisively to reach the enemy's viral areas first and destroy him. Power would be important if those are about equal. If no decisive advantage exists, it's about better mastery of your technique, and more appropriate technique.

Keep in mind, I'd put technique over strength, if by a little. But then my set would be "bravery & killer intent, timing&reflexes, speed, technique & power". The "&" meaning that I can't really separate them. Also, timing is more important in enclosed spaces, but if it's in an open space, speed becomes more valuable.
But the above comes from someone who's trained with the kind of teachers Western kung-fu masters seek when they want to improve. So he just might know better than me...
Amusingly, in the interview he also stresses the need to be proficient in a few techniques instead of middling at many: completely opposite to what most people think about gung-fu!

Now, if you hold an ounce of interest, go read the whole interview. It's worth it! BedrockBrendan especially.

Hand-eye coordination is important, but it’s almost entirely a result of training in a particular skill, not something you just have by itself and then apply to things. It’s normal to be highly coordinated in one context and clumsy in unfamiliar ones.

I'd disagree. HEC has both a skill-based element, and a basic coordination element, IME.

But that's a minor thing.

There aren't many combat sports, other than modern car-antenna fencing, where a substantial advantage in size and strength isn't decisive. There is a reason for weight classes. It is less easy to say for sure how this would work in fights between people armed and armored with medieval gear, but based on what I've experienced in HEMA and armored SCA fighting I think it is crazy to think weight and strength aren't critical factors, particularly in a serious fight where you are trying to do more than tag someone.

I feel like Runequest and GURPS might to the best at getting the balance among strength, dexterity and skill to feel about right.

As I mentioned upthread, sumo is a combat sport (that even allows limited striking) which has no weight categories. There have been ozeki and yokozuna, holding the title for years, which simply weren't neither the strongest nor the heaviest wrestlers. That doesn't happen with a random victory, mind you!
IIRC, one of those was called "the department store of techniques" (Waza no Depaato). He had used...33 of the 82 techniques of sumo in his career. Most sumo wrestlers use much less.

Mainoumi Shūhei - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, most people wouldn't think of sumo as a sport where size and power don't matter, comparable to sport fencing (though I'd like to note the height is really frigging important in sport fencing). And yet he has triumphed against many, many men who were both stronger and heavier, and would be paid handsomely to defeat him...
Riddle me this!

Surely Sumo is dominated by the bigger men? Smaller wrestlers can win, but less often. However I haven't followed it recently.

Except when you have ozeki and yokozuna - the two highest titles - who are outright smaller than many if not most of their opponents....

Mainoumi Shūhei - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yokozuna (highest sumo rank), 1,71 m, 98 kgs. I'm taller and heavier, and many of his opponents were heavier (most often) and/or taller than me... and come on, you can't expect me to believe he was stronger than the bigger wrestlers, right?
No. What he did was moving to the side or behind them. He was even noted to have had more issues with smaller, faster wrestlers who didn't allow him to use his usual strategy.

There are other "smaller" sumotori, though, who held high titles with a more direct approach. It must be noted

Size and strength aren't everything. (Though admittedly, the less skill both parties have, the more they count for).

My answer to the riddle: Is power an advantage? Yes, definitely. Is it enough against someone better? Hardly. And it's going to hurt if you rely on it. So we come back to bravery as well.

It helps to look at PF1. Assume a human character, assume 3d6 in order, assume the human +2 racial bonus is assiged randomly. That means the 1-in-216 chance of an 18 further has a 1-in-6 chance of becoming a 20. That's a 1-in-1296 chance for a 20 at 1st level. (I don't want to talk about ASIs, because you don't get ASIs until you're already unnaturally talented by virtue of skill points.)

I'd like to point out that the 1-in-6 +2 bonus means that after rolling 15, you have a 1:6 chance to get to that Str 17 and break into the "top 2%". And if you roll a natural 16 or 17, you have a 1-in-6 chance to be as strong or stronger as the guy who rolled a natural 18, too!

ON TOPIC TAX: STR is absolutely appropriate for to-hit rolls, leaving aside the matter of AC-- it doesn't matter much there-- because unless you're in a sporting competition with actual rules (and actual judges) that prohibit it... all close-quarters combat is wrestling.

...actually that's really close to the truth!
Except when it's not. An open field can well change that.

You['re using your shield hand or your off-hand to try to pull their shield-hand or their off-hand out of the way so you can stick them in the meaty bits, or you're trying to pin one of their plated limbs back so you can work your stiletto into the joint, or it's "two girls, one knife" night at the reformatory. No matter what, it takes almost no muscular strength at all to push a blade through flesh... but all sorts of muscular strength to get to that point.

If you're actually trying to push a steel blade through steel armor? STR isn't going to cut it. You're going to need physics. A huge two-handed sword isn't going to do it... a huge two-handed axe might... but this is literally what warhammers were invented for. Doesn't take much STR, but it does take lining up a windup and a clean shot.

Yes. And that "windup and clean shot" might well come from either wrestling, footwork, or bladework. Or a combination of more than one of these.
Like, I love wrestling - I jokingly refer to some Chinese styles as "internal wrestling" and consider it a honorary title - but I know full well that there's more than one tactic that works...

While we're on the topic, while I would absolutely support a minimum STR requirement for bows-- I'm not strong enough-- I don't really think DEX is a good model for what makes a successful archer. I think WIS makes a lot more sense here, with STR as both prerequisite and for bonus damage. I took my daughter's entire gymnastics class out to the shooting range to celebrate once, and the results were disappointing to say the least.

OK, did you do it in order to test how important Dex is to shooting? That's actually great, but remember: they were suffering from a -3 penalty due to lack of Shooting-0 skill! A Dex bonus of +1 can hardly compensate for that!

Yea I like how RQ works, but how does STR work in GURPS? Just how big a weapon (i.e. how much damage you do)?

Actually, GURPS makes ST really frigging important when it comes to damage. It's the basis of your damage for swung weapons, although with thrusting weapons, a bigger/broader weapon counts for a lot (1-2 points of bonus damage amounts to 2-4 points of ST higher, since thrust damage improves once every 2 points of ST).
OTOH, with swung weapons, every point of ST counts.

The general conception of Strength most people have is lifting capacity and general muscle size. But a lot of athletes also train for explosiveness as well, usually through rapid movement of weights. Tyson's speed no doubt comes from exsplosivenss.

Actually, I think of "explosiveness and body mass".
But explosiveness is related to correct body mechanics, timing, and positioning...and yes, to muscles, too. But without the other two,

Spoiler: Test Exercise

Anyone doesn't believe me? Do this experiment: Try a swinging, roundhouse-style kick against any stationary target right in front of you - no need to kick high, just kick at the same height all three times. Make sure to wear boots to protect your toes - I'd kick with them if I was you, that's why I said boots - and to "open" your support leg's foot before you kick. Also, kick something sturdy and inexpensive.
Actually, a kicking bag would be great, but if you have access to those, you probably know that already...

Anyway: you tried your first kick. Now, step slightly forward and to the side of your support leg, maybe 10 cm (the exact spot must be on a circle). Kick again. How's the impact?

Now do the same move from the same spot. But this time, start turning your body before your leg leaves the ground. Swing the hands and upper body until you can't move them without lifting your leg. If you need to, do it "dry", without lifting a leg.
Now: as soon as you reach that point, lift the leg and deliver the kick (you might need a few repeats). How was the impact now?


Please, if anyone tries that test, let me know what you think!

Then you get someone like Usain Bolt. His speed is a function of his strength, but it's his explosiveness with the strength that he has that is the key. I'm sure he squats weight, but he wouldn't be fastest at his maximum possible squat weight because there's an obvious trade off there.

I'm not sure he squats with weights, but it's possible. And that's unrelated, I just wanted to note he might be into calisthenics instead!

And looking at how movements with a Zweihander or a Montante are done on youtube, a lot of those movements seems to involve a great deal of core muscles, so I imagine the ideal body type for a user of that weapon would possiby look something like a Kayaker, obviously very well built, but not a total brick.

Yes, totally, from my HEMA experience. The heavier weapons really work your core, especially on swings. Some Chinese styles work with extremely heavy weapons for this goal. Indian wrestlers use long-handled maces.

Accidentally, the strongest man I've met was a kayaker. I don't know if I held any chance against him, though I had more speed and technique. But then he had more practical experience, too!

 

[hawkeyefan]

What about letting the player pick if they want Strength or Dexterity to be used to hit, but then damage is determined by the other?

Seems like a way to give players some flexibility while still making both stats count.

 

[Rogerdee]

Someone on Quora once asked what you'd do if you had to fight someone twice your size, barehanded. My answer was that if I were fighting Andre the fucking Giant, I would aim for his kneecaps and die contented-- and if I weren't fighting Andre the fucking Giant, I would disconnect the batteries on their motorized wheelchair and smother them with a pillow.

Because most of the other people answering the question were, apparently, describing how they'd fight me if I were in good enough shape to be a credible threat.

You should watch Connor MacGregor sparring with the Mountain on YT.
He may be big, but he is fast. Good job he was slapping Connir, otherwise he would have been ten times over!

Well worth a watch, just for realism, and scary AF.

 

[zanshin]

'Except when you have ozeki and yokozuna - the two highest titles - who are outright smaller than many if not most of their opponents....'
(Asen RG)

What's the long term trend in the sport? Have the majority of the top titles been held by people with above or below average weight for a Sumo wrestler?

 

[Toadmaster]

One thing I was contemplating was having both Strength and Size, or maybe rename Strength as "Physique" as it represents your strength relative to your size, your total strength (If you're rolling to life or push something) would be your Physique and your Size, and for damage bonus in melee use the lower of your Physique and your size.

I guess size could plausibly double up somewhat as the toughness/constitution type ability. I generally hate those, because they do nothing active at all in game - but then size doens't do much either - there's precious little non-combat application for Sze.

Traveller 2300 had a body type stat which was interesting. It has been a long time since I've looked at the rules but as I recall characters were one of three types, thin and wiry, "normal" or heavily built (they had more technical terms). Body type combined with other stats set "strength" and I believe may have impacted agility as well. Ultimately I found it lacking but was an interesting concept, because mass matters. On the other hand a well conditioned person can be surprisingly strong for their size. Body builders tend not to have efficient muscle use for doing anything but weight lifting, when compared to say a gymnast, or rock climber who are generally less massive, but may even be stronger in more general terms. Still a 140lb gymnast is going to have a tough time fighting a 240lb weight lifter assuming relatively equal skills.

I've never been into weight lifting, but I am a big guy and have often surprised people with what I can lift and carry. If you don't have the classic body builder look, people assume you can't be that strong, but 6'2" 220lbs and doing heavy work naturally gives you a fair bit to work with.

You can end up up with a large stat block, but I think Str being a composite stat made up from size and physical conditioning makes sense. A large out of shape individual will still have a fair degree of strength for moving or holding things (300lbs is 300lbs), although they may have low strength in other areas where their size doesn't help (like lifting or climbing). A highly fit 88lb individual will have quite a bit of strength where weight doesn't matter, but at 88lbs they will simply not be able to resist a lifting force of 100lbs as lifting themselves off the ground is the result. I've seen many small people doing pull downs on a weight machine that required having a larger person holding them down. They had the strength, but were short on gravity.

Of course the other problem is "dexterity" which is part of what I'm thinking through here.

Because dexterity seems to combine two things: hand eye coordination and and agility, but these are different things, and what is agility really but at its core strength relative to body weight?

Dexterity / Agility often comes up, because they are two different things although somewhat related. Certainly there are extreme examples where one has a high degree of one and lacks the other, but I think in general people are well coordinated or they aren't. Unless you want to go down the path of a huge stat list agility as the default and dexterity being covered through skill seems the most practical result. Perhaps a Coordination stat would be more neutral as it is less specific. Skills / Feats etc can cover those who excel in one side or the other.

You could have an old fat watchmaker with insane dexterity, and almost non-existent agility, but that can also be done with a low agility and high skill. Intelligence can also be a factor, as fine Dexterity is often closely tied to trained skills lockpicking, jeweler, surgeon. I suppose the same could be said about Agility although being more physical in nature acrobatics, dancing, running I would be comfortable tying Dex skills to Int and Agl skills to a physical stat.

Yes, Conan is actually a guy who has never, AFAIR, met someone faster than him, though in some cases it was a close call at least (or possibly the Cimmerian was even outmatched). But he won mainly through a combination of bravery, experience and killer instinct...backed up by strength, speed and reflexes.

Conan also rarely met one who was stronger than him. When he did he still often beat them through better endurance and shear strength of will.

Accidentally, the strongest man I've met was a kayaker. I don't know if I held any chance against him, though I had more speed and technique. But then he had more practical experience, too!

I worked as a lifeguard for a year, a perk of that was the use of the rescue board (basically a wide surfboard) for PT. Excellent shoulder, back, chest and arm exercise. I imagine kayaking is similar. I also worked with a lot of climbers when I worked in Yosemite. Most were thin and wiry, but very strong for their size because they pretty much use every muscle in their body when climbing. Competitive swimmers are another that are often underestimated.

 

[Brock Savage]

A 6'2" woman with a large frame who is muscular and conditioned is absolutely going to be considerably stronger than 98% of humanity on her own.

(@helenz_figure on Pinterest, courtesy of DuckDuckGo image search)

I think she's easily stronger than I am. I think she's easily stronger than 1-in-54 adult human people (STR 17), could make a good argument for her being even stronger than 1-in-216 (STR 18).

A 17 STR would say she can "max press" 220 pounds. I'd say Helen here can probably manage that.

Like I said upthread, I don't like to get into the gritty and depressing minutiae of real-life strength when it comes to D&D because it's a real killjoy and not fun at all. I prefer a looser, hand-wavey approach to extraordinary female strength such as "she's an Amazon and they are fucking strong as hell." I will be the first to say that my "6'7" 350 lb male athlete" was a fair bit of hyperbole and a more accurate figure would be in the range of 200- 250lbs.

For one you're bouncing across D&D editions when there is little consistency across editions as to exactly what each point of an ability score means. For the quoted text you seem to be drawing upon AD&D for your figures; that's the one where Gygax where made the wacky 18xx subsystem to account for powerlifters and worked his way backwards from there.

Nerd culture also has a tendency to overestimate female upper body strength. The AD&D "max press" refers to an overhead lift- a military or "strict" press to be exact. Do you have any proof that Helen can lift 220 over her head in that manner? Helen has an impressive pair of guns but 220 is an extraordinary amount for a female to bench press much less military press (which is even harder); even many years of training isn't a guarantee. Obviously there are females in existence who can lift that much and more overhead but like I said, it is extraordinary and I can't assume Helen can do that based solely on a picture.

 

[Rogerdee]

Strength is a weird one to be honest.

A good number of years ago I did an awful lot if weights, some quite heavy such that I could lift a full wheelie bin (household rubbish) with some effort. My GF if the time would not help me lift anything when I moved in to my hew house, of time. I recall physically carrying a sofa in a hirizontal lift, on my own. Then after we were no longer together I was doing an RDL at home and blew my back out.

It has never been right since.

At least until I started training a few years ago (a decade break at a guess), but fearful of a repeat I switched disciplines to Calisthenics. It is simply one of the toughest set of physical I have ever undertaken. Whereas with weights, you simply lift a lighter weight.

Not with calisthenics!

It us all about do the exercise progressions, which are damn tough. Such that you can spend six months plus doing on set of progressions, then holding while you strengtgen a weakness for three months to return to what you were doing months ago.

Am I as strong as when I lifted weights? Not at all.

But my body is strong in a way that I could not duplicate while I had been doing weights. The type of strength is different. The muscle groups being built are not the usual ones. With calisthenics you can spend literally six months failing, such that you pick yourself up and keeping pushing in.

It requires a certain fortitude of mind that I did not possess those years ago. At least not in the same way. But due to doing body weight training I am certainly faster due to having less bulk, and stronger in some ways. But less so in others.

Some calisthenics guys know that it us weak in leg training, so will either undertake body weight leg training, or switch it up to include weight. Examples of them are Austin Dunham, and Fitness FAQ's (he is on Oz or NZ and even travelled halfway across the world to train with Dunham).

You have wiry, but incredibly strong lifters like Athlean-X (Jeff Cavalier) who cannot fully match the calisthenics but fills the middle ground. Even Thanos rates him! Then you get Erikbarsi who has taken calisthenics to a level to virtualky rival the Shaolin monks!

He does a full planche on four fingers (two fingers on each hand).

Then you get the Mountain who can out lift them all many times over. Ask him to do ten pullups and he'll fail as physics does not allow it in human beings. Same way that a full one armed handstand pushup, off a wall is physically impisdible for us. You would literally need to lift a ton on one arm. Austin Dunham, and Fitness FAQ's (he is on Oz or NZ and even travelled halfway across the world to train with Dunham).

You have wiry, but incredibly strong lifters like Athlean-X (Jeff Cavalier) who cannot fully natch the calisthenics but fills the middle ground. Then you get Erikbarsi who has taken calisthenics to a level to virtualky rival the Shaolin monks!

He does a full planche on four fingers (two fingers on each hand).

Then you get the Mountain who can out lift them all many times over. Ask him to do ten pullups and he'll fail as physics does not allow it in human beings. Same way that a full one armed handstand pushup, off a wall is physically impisdible for us. You would literally need to lift a ton on one arm.

Incidentally the Mountain said that after sparring with MacGregor, in a separate interview, that he had to be very careful. CM is too small, and weak really, and if he put any real strength behind his slaps he would have hurt him. We all know that 300 plus pounds full on would like cause a skull fracture.

But Mass x Speed = Force

So if you lack in one area, you can maybe make in another

 

[AsenRG]

Toadmaster I can't comment on this. Never had the opportunity to engage in rowing.
But yes, climbing and swimming are also underestimated forms of exercise!

'Except when you have ozeki and yokozuna - the two highest titles - who are outright smaller than many if not most of their opponents....'
(Asen RG)

What's the long term trend in the sport? Have the majority of the top titles been held by people with above or below average weight for a Sumo wrestler?

Yes.
That is, they have all been held by people with weight above the average, below the average, and roughly the average. But you overestimate my knowledge of the sport's history if you believe that I can speak about the long-term trends!

Rogerdee why do you say a one-arm handstand is impossible?

 

[Moonglum]

Most people consider it unplayable, but 1st edition Chivalry and Sorcery presents a quite nuanced, balanced take on how strength, size, dexterity and skill contribute to fighting ability.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Mike Tyson comes up a fair amount when talking about size, speed, strength and endurance. He was very fast, very strong, not so tall and lacking in endurance given his punching strategy. I don't think a physically less strong Tyson would have had anywhere the impact he did with just speed and agility dominance. They all do different things. Agility lands the blow, speed/height gets the blow in range, strength dictates damage, endurance determines how long you can fight for

He power also came from his technique and his footwork. But I agree his physical strength was an important part of it. My feeling, just having done a lot of this stuff in real life, is it is very hard to get all the nuance into a game, and the more I think about what goes into an attack, it is just hard for me to say this attribute or that attribute is the one that gives you the most benefit when doing X. I think for a game, just go with what works and what suits your needs in terms of balancing the mechanics.

One suggestion I have though is if you want to reflect the variety of ways strength, dexterity, and even intelligence get used, you could have the bonus be dependent on what kind of attack the person is trying to make

 

[Rogerdee]

Rogerdee why do you say a one-arm handstand is impossible?

That is a one-armed handstand, but you'll notice that I said that a one-armed press / push is not. You will see people struggle to do it against a wall - their legs are usually ar around 45 degrees or so. And they still struggle. Simon Strength, aka Simonster as he is known goes sll around the workd showcasing his strength.

 

[Dammit Victor]

Like I said upthread, I don't like to get into the gritty and depressing minutiae of real-life strength when it comes to D&D because it's a real killjoy and not fun at all. I prefer a looser, hand-wavey approach to extraordinary female strength such as "she's an Amazon and they are fucking strong as hell." I will be the first to say that my "6'7" 350 lb male athlete" was a fair bit of hyperbole and a more accurate figure would be in the range of 200- 250lbs.

All I'm really trying to say here is that your standard for the "top 2% of humanity" appears to be a fraction of a fraction of the top one percent of male athletes. An 18 STR is 1-in-216, and you're comparing a 17 to a standard that's orders of magnitude rarer than that-- with or without the hyperbole. The average human being includes all of the "fun size" girls who'd scream they were as strong as any man... if they were strong enough to raise their voices.

 

[AsenRG]

That is a one-armed handstand, but you'll notice that I said that a one-armed press / push is not. You will see people struggle to do it against a wall - their legs are usually ar around 45 degrees or so. And they still struggle. Simon Strength, aka Simonster as he is known goes sll around the workd showcasing his strength.

OK, I'm sure I've heard reports of people doing that...but I haven't seen it. If I find anyone, I'll send you a link!

He power also came from his technique and his footwork. But I agree his physical strength was an important part of it. My feeling, just having done a lot of this stuff in real life, is it is very hard to get all the nuance into a game, and the more I think about what goes into an attack, it is just hard for me to say this attribute or that attribute is the one that gives you the most benefit when doing X. I think for a game, just go with what works and what suits your needs in terms of balancing the mechanics.

Yes indeed. That's what my joke "test exercise" was meant to show.

Also, please people, if anyone tries that test, let me know what you think!

Conan also rarely met one who was stronger than him. When he did he still often beat them through better endurance and shear strength of will.

Not if you count the various monsters that he killed. Among humans, yes, but that's not all that he fought.
Monsters were often stronger.

 

[Rogerdee]

AsenRG here you go

 

[AsenRG]

AsenRG here you go

I'm not going to discuss that, man. I can't do that kind of movements...yet (planning to go back to calisthenics soon). But one thing I know is, many things we believed impossible, have been done - your guy mentions it in his video, too.
So I can't prove otherwise, I can't tell you how to do it, but I'm sure someday, someone is going to make it.

 

[Rogerdee]

I'm not going to discuss that, man. I can't do that kind of movements...yet (planning to go back to calisthenics soon). But one thing I know is, many things we believed impossible, have been done - your guy mentions it in his video, too.
So I can't prove otherwise, I can't tell you how to do it, but I'm sure someday, someone is going to make it.

I am starting back into it tomorrow, looking forward to it though I know I will be in pain for some of the day lol

 

[Rogerdee]

AsenRG Simonstrngth almost manages it.



3.10. Braces his hand with left. Very close. Ignore his break dancing, it is impressive, but some of his stregnth work is phenomenal.

 

[TJS]

Dexterity / Agility often comes up, because they are two different things although somewhat related. Certainly there are extreme examples where one has a high degree of one and lacks the other, but I think in general people are well coordinated or they aren't. Unless you want to go down the path of a huge stat list agility as the default and dexterity being covered through skill seems the most practical result. Perhaps a Coordination stat would be more neutral as it is less specific. Skills / Feats etc can cover those who excel in one side or the other.

You could have an old fat watchmaker with insane dexterity, and almost non-existent agility, but that can also be done with a low agility and high skill. Intelligence can also be a factor, as fine Dexterity is often closely tied to trained skills lockpicking, jeweler, surgeon. I suppose the same could be said about Agility although being more physical in nature acrobatics, dancing, running I would be comfortable tying Dex skills to Int and Agl skills to a physical stat.

See I am generally handling this by putting two abilities together. So watchmaking would be (Coordination) Untrained or (Coordination+Focus) Trained. Part of the point of Focus is to put a mental element into a lot of these things. Acrobatics would be Coordination (Untrained) or (Coordination+Physique)Trained. Physique is Strength divorced from size - so effectively Strength relative to body weight.

Stealth by the way is the opposite of watchmaking, Focus first and then Coordination, because I tend to think being able to concentrate and place your feet carefully is the most important aspect of stealth, especially for the average untrained person.

 

[TJS]

I worked as a lifeguard for a year, a perk of that was the use of the rescue board (basically a wide surfboard) for PT. Excellent shoulder, back, chest and arm exercise. I imagine kayaking is similar. I also worked with a lot of climbers when I worked in Yosemite. Most were thin and wiry, but very strong for their size because they pretty much use every muscle in their body when climbing. Competitive swimmers are another that are often underestimated.

The thing that's interesting about olympic Kayaking is the sheer amount of core involved which people don't realise. Basically you are in a boat that if the average person tried to just sit in, let alone move, they would tip straight into the water; it's a bit like sitting inside a hollow log (with your centre of gravity at the bottom). You then have to use that boat as your platform to push against using your whole body (including your feet and basically twist your body from one side to the other to push as much water as you can).

You therefore need very good core strength, lats and balance. Sprint Kayakers tend to have fairly large upper arm strength too, but that is mostly a product of starting quickly, once they get started they don't rely on arm strength too much (arms are relatively weak).

 

[TJS]

Attributes in most system are gross abstractions. They help paint a picture of the character, strenghts and weaknesses, and provide a framework around the rest of the game mechanics are build and balanced. I think you can then end up down a rabbit hole if then selectively take the abstraction and start to selectively drill down to a deeper level of detail and granularity, usually in the interest of realism. The end result can turn out loopsided and contradict the original assumptions underpinning the system.

So yeah, strenght probably helps in melee fights, as does size, reach, reflexes, intelligence, experience, courage, luck, pain tollerance and who knows what else. Your going to have to simplfy the model somehow and it will always be a compromise.

Well yes, but thinking through the reality of what you're trying to abstract from can help to break through the cruft of established tradition such as Strength, Dexterity and Constitution as physical attributes.

I don't want to hack together a new system just to still have same tired compromises everyone else makes. I want to at least make a few new and different ones.

And also breaking apart the stereotypical boundaries offers new affordances.

 

[E-Rocker]

Okay, this is tangential to the question asked, but it's something I've often thought about, and this is the closest-to-relevant thread, so I'll say my piece:

Although I generally prefer my game stats pretty simple, I wish games would take into account the many different types of endurance. For instance, I can run eight miles. Not especially fast; somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 minutes/mile, but still, I can run eight miles at a steady pace without stopping. That's something a lot of people are not able to do. And yet, I get winded whenever I rapidly ascend the two flights of stairs at work, which happens multiple times/workday. Because that short burst of speed requires a different type of endurance.

Similarly, for many years, I trained in a martial arts school where the core curriculum was a combination of Filipino stick fighting, Muay Thai kickboxing, and grappling (BJJ/CSW). Most people did the combination, but there were some who would only come in for the class on X or Y or Z. So you take the guys and gals who can kickbox for hours, but only do kickboxing. Make them grapple and they were completely gassed out after five minutes of grappling. Same thing vice verse: take guys & gals who could roll for hours, but only did grappling, and have them hit Thai pads, and they were completely gassed out after five minutes.

As for how important strength is: I'm not comfortable making an overall statement. What I can say from experience is that one of the guys I would roll with was a bit smaller than me and less experienced than me, but also freakishly strong. I never beat him. Not once.

 

[Brock Savage]

Although I generally prefer my game stats pretty simple, I wish games would take into account the many different types of endurance. For instance, I can run eight miles. Not especially fast; somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 minutes/mile, but still, I can run eight miles at a steady pace without stopping. That's something a lot of people are not able to do. And yet, I get winded whenever I rapidly ascend the two flights of stairs at work, which happens multiple times/workday. Because that short burst of speed requires a different type of endurance.

Hah hah that is funny. I can bound up the stairs to our apartment like a mountain gazelle but would embarrass myself if I tried to run 8 miles today. I have mad respect for anyone around our age who can run 8 miles. Even when I was in peak condition and had to run all the time I hated it because shin splints. Getting back to some kind of running before I die is on my bucket list.

Back on topic, do you think differentiating between burst strength endurance and long haul endurance is desirable for most games? In D&D I imagine any Fighter worthy of the title probably has both in droves and if I really needed to measure them I could use Strength and Constitution in a pinch. That said, I definitely could see the use for a more granular breakdown of endurance in a game that was focused on say, professional combat sports with a training routine downtime minigame.

 

[Dammit Victor]

Honestly... before trying to subdivide the various types of endurance in combat sports, I'd probably look at whether D&D's split between STR and CON even makes sense for the purposes of D&D. Practically speaking, having more than a 3-4 point difference between the two would be a freakish outlier.

I'm a big guy, big frame, naturally muscular... so I've got a (barely) above average STR but I can't walk all the way around a city block (even with my walker) and I get winded from playing video games. I need multiple medical conditions to justify the fact that my STR is probably 6-7 points higher than my CON. If you look at 3e/4e D&D... you probably get a lot of Fighters and especially Paladins with that spread, because they put all their ASIs into STR.

Barbarians of Lemuria doesn't see the need to split them.

 

[Silverlion]

One thing I'd like to point out--is to look at fencers without their suits and pay attention to their arms. They often have more muscular/thick lower arms since the sword move with the wrist, and only a little for the hilt, but notably for the end.

When I was studying Taekwondo, my teacher (who taught it more as self-defense than art.) Had arms like thick tree limbs, was a short stocky, round man, with bad knees. But his arms, were as I noted huge. He had known and taught fencing, on top of martial arts--and the speed and accuracy of his hands were impressive, but so was his strength. While martial styles make use of the hip and body to land powerful blows using all of it in the shift of a punch. Fencing uses more of the lower arm (But all of it matters.)

In general, I think that strength matters because it drives force and control for certain kinds of precision, but that precision is also an element of reflexes/finesse/agility (whatever you want to call it.)

 

[TJS]

There's a few things at work with endurance, but they're not generally unrelated.

Basically, there's the really short burst efforts which are highly neuromuscular (Eg 100 metre sprint for an olympic sprinter). Everything else is to some extent aerobic. Although some people are more gifted at one end of the spectrum (working at a high percentage of maximum heart rate) and others at the longer distance more endurance pace. For purposes of lengthy endurance, part of long relatively slow training, such as cyclists and runners do, is to improve the bodies ability to metabolise fat for fuel and therefore save carbohydrates. Working at a high percentage of heart rate is entirely fueled by carbohydrates.

Almost any serious endurance athlete will train at different speeds and different intervals because the systems are interrelated, although with adjustments in different proportions and periodisation based on their goals.

The other thing that what we think of as aerobic fitness is more specific than usually assumed. It's partly cardio-vascular, the ability of the heart to pump blood and lungs to take in oxygen, but a big part of it is muscular - specifically the development of slow twitch muscles and the capilliaries necessary to pump blood those to muscles.

This is why a talented runner will be a better cyclist than the average person taking it up for the first time, but they won't be a really good cyclist.

It's also why you can't be a world class body builder and endurance athlete at the same time, developing fast twitch muscles and slow twitch simulataneously is very hard, and involves trade-offs in your potential in both directions.

 

[TJS]

The issue with any kind of endurance ability in a rpg is that it's essentially passive.

It's very hard to have attached to a skill that is meaningfully used actively by the player. You can decide to approach a problem, by sneaking, or by socialising, or by adopting a diguise, but it's very hard to approach a problem by enduring. The ability to run a long distance can come up in a game (say to deliver a warning to the next town of an invading army and give them enoughy time to evacuaate) but while this can be very cool, it tends to be a once in a campaign kind of thing.

Endurance mostly comes up outside of combat when the GM asks you to roll. This doesn't mean I think it shouldn't exist, because I actually really like playing characters who can just go and go, but I'm think it's probably better if this is folded into something else.

The other thing is that Con works more or less for D&D because D&D is a tactical combat squad game and Con is an ability score tax that everyone needs to pay to a greater or lesser extent. But if you want to have a game in which being a non-combatant is a perfectly viable option, because most combats are likely to be either individual or at a scale larger than a handful of combatants on each side, than the need to buy an extra ability score that is difficult to use outside of combat is problematic.

 

[Toadmaster]

See I am generally handling this by putting two abilities together. So watchmaking would be (Coordination) Untrained or (Coordination+Focus) Trained. Part of the point of Focus is to put a mental element into a lot of these things. Acrobatics would be Coordination (Untrained) or (Coordination+Physique)Trained. Physique is Strength divorced from size - so effectively Strength relative to body weight.

Stealth by the way is the opposite of watchmaking, Focus first and then Coordination, because I tend to think being able to concentrate and place your feet carefully is the most important aspect of stealth, especially for the average untrained person.

The idea of stat + focus makes sense to me, and I was thinking along the same lines in that Dexterity (hand-eye) vs Agility (full body) could be differentiated by which attribute a skill is based on, focus in your case.

Physique is a nice neutral term that could help get away from some assumptions related to Strength. Tying certain strength aspects to size like damage, and broad lifting / moving ability would help differentiate a big strong guy, from a small strong guy. Other abilities like pushing / pulling your body weight such as to climbing through a window, doing pull ups, jumping etc are going to be much more equal between two of similar physique but different sizes.

Ideally it should be possible to have the situation where a big guy is "stronger" in regards to damage, lifting, pushing because of size, but actually has a lower physique so the little guy can readily beat him in some "feats of strength" such as pullups, pushups, jumping, climbing etc where mass is less of an advantage.

The thing that's interesting about olympic Kayaking is that sheer amount of core involved which people don't realise. Basically you are in a boat that if the average person tried to just sit in, let alone move, they would tip straight into the water; it's a bit like sitting inside a hollow log (with your centre of gravity at the bottom). You then have to use that boat as your platform to push against using your whole body (including your feet and basically twist your body from one side to the other to push as much water as you can).

You therefore need very good core strength, lats and balance. Sprint Kayakers tend to have fairly large upper arm strength too, but that is mostly a product of starting quickly, once they get started they don't rely on arm strength too much (arms are relatively weak).

Relative is the operative word there. Compared to a weightlifter, but I'm sure they are quite strong compared to an average person of similar build.

The rescue boards were kind of like kayaking in that you lay on the board and paddle with your arms, but your entire body is involved to some degree. You have to arch your back to raise your head so you can see where you are going. Your arms and shoulders of course are doing the bulk of the paddle work, but your back and chest are also getting worked. Throughout you are maintaining balance of the board with your legs, and torso as it kind of wants to rollover and dump you in the water unless you lay still.

Okay, this is tangential to the question asked, but it's something I've often thought about, and this is the closest-to-relevant thread, so I'll say my piece:

Although I generally prefer my game stats pretty simple, I wish games would take into account the many different types of endurance. For instance, I can run eight miles. Not especially fast; somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 minutes/mile, but still, I can run eight miles at a steady pace without stopping. That's something a lot of people are not able to do. And yet, I get winded whenever I rapidly ascend the two flights of stairs at work, which happens multiple times/workday. Because that short burst of speed requires a different type of endurance.

Similarly, for many years, I trained in a martial arts school where the core curriculum was a combination of Filipino stick fighting, Muay Thai kickboxing, and grappling (BJJ/CSW). Most people did the combination, but there were some who would only come in for the class on X or Y or Z. So you take the guys and gals who can kickbox for hours, but only do kickboxing. Make them grapple and they were completely gassed out after five minutes of grappling. Same thing vice verse: take guys & gals who could roll for hours, but only did grappling, and have them hit Thai pads, and they were completely gassed out after five minutes.

As for how important strength is: I'm not comfortable making an overall statement. What I can say from experience is that one of the guys I would roll with was a bit smaller than me and less experienced than me, but also freakishly strong. I never beat him. Not once.

Work hardening is a thing. In a way kind of different than straight endurance, because it is more of a learned thing of knowing how hard you can work for a long period. This is where you will often see older, but more experienced workers run the young pups into the ground. They know how hard they can work all day, the less experienced will often push and burn out. The inexperienced also may not have developed the specific muscle groups for certain types of work, like swinging a hammer or digging ditches so they are purely working off of raw endurance.

You are not putting it in those words but that is basically what you are describing between running 8 miles and rushing up 2 flights of stairs. Although winded after two flights I bet you could do 10 or 20 flights if you practiced and learned the pace you need to maintain because. This practice would also develop the muscle groups used to climb stairs which are different than running on flat ground or even hills.

I used to train on stairs wearing full turnout gear, SCBA and a hose pack. Somewhere around 100-125lbs of crap, and you feel every pound, it is completely different than running or even running stairs without the weight. We couldn't use the elevator even when we knew it was probably a false alarm so up the stairs with a pile of stuff, then you still have to be able to work when you get to the "fire" floor and then even if it was nothing (which was most of the time) load up all that crap and back down the stairs (again no elevator for "reasons"). I'd still get winded running up a couple flights of stairs in a parking garage or similar because hey how fast can I go.

When I moved over to forestry, hiking is like stairs. I'd get young fit guys who were primarily runners, and they would obliterate me on a run, but load them down with a 40lb pack and have them hike a hill it was a different story. Eventually they would adapt, and because they were young and fit they would become good hikers, but they would hurt for the first few weeks until they found their pace and developed their hiking muscles. I wasn't particularly fast but I could go a long time and carry a lot of weight.

 

[TJS]

Yeah muscle groups and the way they are worked in endurance are crucial. There's less crossover than people think.

One big one that seems unintuitive but basically works is that rowers tend to make very good cyclists (but not the other way around; the way rowers use their legs is similar to cycling, but obviously cyclists don't have the experience with rowing's upper body movements.)

 

[E-Rocker]

Back on topic, do you think differentiating between burst strength endurance and long haul endurance is desirable for most games? In D&D I imagine any Fighter worthy of the title probably has both in droves and if I really needed to measure them I could use Strength and Constitution in a pinch. That said, I definitely could see the use for a more granular breakdown of endurance in a game that was focused on say, professional combat sports with a training routine downtime minigame.

Considering my current gaming situation is running Savage World Adventure Edition (see Vigor rolls) and playing D&D 5E (see CON Saves), it's not especially relevant. I just find it an interesting topic as it relates to real life.

I do think it could be interesting as it relates to the World Wide Wrestling game. I have it, but have not read it, so I'm not sure whether it treats pro wrestling matches as legitimate contests or works. If the former, than endurance stats could definitely be relevant.

Toadmaster I recall in high school when me & my buddy (my godfather's son) thought we were hot shit @ basketball, my dad & godfather would still beat the tar out of us based on, in their own words, "old age and court smarts."

 

[AsenRG]

Anyway, back to combat...

So my answer is "strength is important, but I've seen enough lighter wrestlers/grapplers who can tie much bigger wrestlers into a pretzel due to technique". It's even more important with weapons, while armour makes strength and endurace kinda more important.
The thing is, all combat systems are merely mental models. They reflect what the author imagines fighting would be like. Other people might have different ideas, though.

Part of the reason why people overestimate the importance of strength in combat is, many people only think of "straightforward" movement when they think about combat. But it ain't so: forward movement matters. But fights have been won by angling off...and more than once.
Of course, if an enemy is equal to you in all aspects, including "Fight IQ", but also stronger? Well, you're in for a world of hurt, unless you get lucky. But you can basically say the same about any quality.
The reason why some people *coughwhitewolfcough* nderestimate the importance of strength is probably that they imagine something like a point-fighting tournament, or fencing. But they miss the fact that you can very well pull the opposing limbs out of your way, or just hold and take someone down, or even pull the opponent towards where you want him.
Whether strength is more important in grappling than agility and cordination, as in "the ability to control your center o balance and to change directions rapidly", is an even hotter topic that I'd leave up for grabs. I know wrestlers who would say it's strength, and wrestlers who say strength is absolutely secondary to the sport.

So the importance of strength should neither be overestimated, nor underestimated. Unles it works for your game. But I'd rather avoid a godstat: everythng matters. Weighing what matters more is a fun mental exercise, but probably unnecessary for a game. Of course, different abilities also matter more or less for different approaches (size is kinda secondary for in-fighting, but a huge advantage for outfighting), which often makes people gravitate towards what they're naturally disposed towards.

But outside of tournaments with weight classes, you'd most likely both have advantages in a certain area or areas. And then the art of leveraging them to the fullest and compensating for your weaker areas becomes much more important.
Also, learning any skill teaches you just that: to leverage your abilities and compensate for your weaknesses. So even if you've got Str 9 Agi 8 in Mythras, you can be better than someone who has Str 16, Agi 16. But he is going to strike harder than you.
Close enough for me...
In the end, I usually just apply the Traveller logic (please note, Str in Traveller is "the ability to apply force" - not muscles, necessarily): you can use whichever works better for you. I'd like the game to also express the relationship between the two - but it doesn't, so I just take the things it does, and make up for the rest via rulings (mostly).

And the "equal in all other aspects" is seldom the case ouside of sports fighting with weight categores, anyway. Most often you'd both have advantages in a certain area or areas. And then the art of leveraging them to the fullest and compensating for your weaker areas becomes much more important.
Also, learning any skill teaches you just that: to leverage your abilities and compensate for your weaknesses. So even if you've got Str 9 Agi 8 in Mythras, you can be better than someone who has Str 16, Agi 16. But he is going to strike harder than you.
Close enough for me...
In the end, I usually just apply the Traveller logic (please note, Str in Traveller is "the ability to apply force" - not muscles, necessarily): you can use whichever works better for you. I'd like the game to also express the relationship between the two - but it doesn't, so I just take the things it does, and make up for the rest via rulings (mostly).

And finally, a couple sumo links!

Spoiler: Sumo

Hirazaki Eihō

List of the heaviest sumo wrestlers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The latter is very interesting: all of these guys are over 200 kgs. Only one has been yokozuna, and one has reahed ozeki rank.
At th same time the "lightest yokozuna" was merely around 100 kgs.

 

[Trippy]

In real world physiology, the categorical difference between Strength, Constitution and Dexterity are blurred.

Physical balance is actually maintained a lot of the time by muscular strength. Physical force is maximized by the coordination of muscles. Physical stamina maximizes recovery and effectiveness in both strength and co-ordination.

 

[Chris Brady]

In real world physiology, the categorical difference between Strength, Constitution and Dexterity are blurred.

Physical balance is actually maintained a lot of the time by muscular strength. Physical force is maximized by the coordination of muscles. Physical stamina maximizes recovery and effectiveness in both strength and co-ordination.

This. Sure, someone people are faster, some are strong or tougher, but when you work out the body, all these attributes increase as well.

And for ME, why I'm OK with D&D style Strength for Melee, is because I see it as a combination of muscle speed (Getting an object, including a fist, from Point A to a face, needs to be quick or the opponent can block or avoid it) and gross motor control.

Dexterity/Agility for me, is fine motor control and flexibility.

 

[Coplen]

Strength is a weird one to be honest.

A good number of years ago I did an awful lot if weights, some quite heavy such that I could lift a full wheelie bin (household rubbish) with some effort. My GF if the time would not help me lift anything when I moved in to my hew house, of time. I recall physically carrying a sofa in a hirizontal lift, on my own. Then after we were no longer together I was doing an RDL at home and blew my back out.

It has never been right since.

At least until I started training a few years ago (a decade break at a guess), but fearful of a repeat I switched disciplines to Calisthenics. It is simply one of the toughest set of physical I have ever undertaken. Whereas with weights, you simply lift a lighter weight.

Not with calisthenics!

It us all about do the exercise progressions, which are damn tough. Such that you can spend six months plus doing on set of progressions, then holding while you strengtgen a weakness for three months to return to what you were doing months ago.

Am I as strong as when I lifted weights? Not at all.

But my body is strong in a way that I could not duplicate while I had been doing weights. The type of strength is different. The muscle groups being built are not the usual ones. With calisthenics you can spend literally six months failing, such that you pick yourself up and keeping pushing in.

It requires a certain fortitude of mind that I did not possess those years ago. At least not in the same way. But due to doing body weight training I am certainly faster due to having less bulk, and stronger in some ways. But less so in others.

Some calisthenics guys know that it us weak in leg training, so will either undertake body weight leg training, or switch it up to include weight. Examples of them are Austin Dunham, and Fitness FAQ's (he is on Oz or NZ and even travelled halfway across the world to train with Dunham).

You have wiry, but incredibly strong lifters like Athlean-X (Jeff Cavalier) who cannot fully match the calisthenics but fills the middle ground. Even Thanos rates him! Then you get Erikbarsi who has taken calisthenics to a level to virtualky rival the Shaolin monks!

He does a full planche on four fingers (two fingers on each hand).

Then you get the Mountain who can out lift them all many times over. Ask him to do ten pullups and he'll fail as physics does not allow it in human beings. Same way that a full one armed handstand pushup, off a wall is physically impisdible for us. You would literally need to lift a ton on one arm. Austin Dunham, and Fitness FAQ's (he is on Oz or NZ and even travelled halfway across the world to train with Dunham).

You have wiry, but incredibly strong lifters like Athlean-X (Jeff Cavalier) who cannot fully natch the calisthenics but fills the middle ground. Then you get Erikbarsi who has taken calisthenics to a level to virtualky rival the Shaolin monks!

He does a full planche on four fingers (two fingers on each hand).

Then you get the Mountain who can out lift them all many times over. Ask him to do ten pullups and he'll fail as physics does not allow it in human beings. Same way that a full one armed handstand pushup, off a wall is physically impisdible for us. You would literally need to lift a ton on one arm.

Incidentally the Mountain said that after sparring with MacGregor, in a separate interview, that he had to be very careful. CM is too small, and weak really, and if he put any real strength behind his slaps he would have hurt him. We all know that 300 plus pounds full on would like cause a skull fracture.

But Mass x Speed = Force

So if you lack in one area, you can maybe make in another

Not good editing so forgive me tagging everything. Also on my iPad and that screws me up typing.

The Mountain will roll in BJJ with a black belt and crush the guy cause he’s just too strong for the black belt. I was reading or watching something about it a week or so back.

You guys mentioning weight classes are spot on. How you do this in a game would be too complicating and boring for me. Games being abstract are the way to go. I don’t think we need a deluxe version of Phoenix Command To ever exist.

 

[Rogerdee]

Not good editing so forgive me tagging everything. Also on my iPad and that screws me up typing.

The Mountain will roll in BJJ with a black belt and crush the guy cause he’s just too strong for the black belt. I was reading or watching something about it a week or so back.

You guys mentioning weight classes are spot on. How you do this in a game would be too complicating and boring for me. Games being abstract are the way to go. I don’t think we need a deluxe version of Phoenix Command To ever exist.

I did groundwork quite a few times with heavier opponents. As soon as they got hold of me and they gained control I would literally tire myself out trying to get away. Because if I stayed static I was pinned due to superior size / strength.

So short of using dirty infighting, or punching the guy - which you cannot do your training partner, it was a good learning experience in understanding how a real situation would go down. Plus it also helped me build endurance under resistance.

 

[AsenRG]

And yet in reality the heavier guy doesn't always win.

 

[Spartan]

Like anything else, it depends on context. It's always better to be stronger than your opponent. It's always better to be faster and more dextrous. In unarmed sporting combat, size and strength are very important, hence weight classes as described earlier. When weapons come into play, strength and size matter less, but they still matter. Weapons are force multipliers which reduce the amount of raw strength you need, but don't eliminate it entirely. Speed is also a function of strength, so there's that. Armour changes things as well, because armoured combat is very wrestle-y. The best HEMA fencers tend to be just generally athletic, not hulking but not waifs either. They are also explosive, which is very important. In an unarmoured duel with sharps I'd assume that explosiveness would matter less, since one would be insanely cautious. One only has to look up Boucicault's training to see how seriously knights took their conditioning.

 

[Roseblack]

One of the smartest things in Shadow of the Demon Lord is how Strength covers what would be both Strength and Constitution in D&D. A passive endurance stat just isn’t very interesting, and it’s hard to imagine someone being really tough but not strong or vice versa. Constitution really is redundant, but people keep it around because of inertia.

It still distinguishes Strength and Agility, which isn’t redundant (even if there is a correlation there), and for an rpg it’s good enough, and it’s a case in which the narratively satisfying approach is going to be better than the realistic/simulationist one anyway. We like imagining how Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are both equally skilled swordsmen despite their very different builds. SotDL doesn’t let stat bonuses add to damage in any case, and with Strength also adding to Health and Agility also adding to Defense, it evens out.

 

[Chris Brady]

One of the smartest things in Shadow of the Demon Lord is how Strength covers what would be both Strength and Constitution in D&D. A passive endurance stat just isn’t very interesting, and it’s hard to imagine someone being really tough but not strong or vice versa. Constitution really is redundant, but people keep it around because of inertia.

It still distinguishes Strength and Agility, which isn’t redundant (even if there is a correlation there), and for an rpg it’s good enough, and it’s a case in which the narratively satisfying approach is going to be better than the realistic/simulationist one anyway. We like imagining how Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are both equally skilled swordsmen despite their very different builds. SotDL doesn’t let stat bonuses add to damage in any case, and with Strength also adding to Health and Agility also adding to Defense, it evens out.

Very good point. If you're very strong, you're likely to be very fit as well.

 

[Toadmaster]

One of the smartest things in Shadow of the Demon Lord is how Strength covers what would be both Strength and Constitution in D&D. A passive endurance stat just isn’t very interesting, and it’s hard to imagine someone being really tough but not strong or vice versa. Constitution really is redundant, but people keep it around because of inertia.

It still distinguishes Strength and Agility, which isn’t redundant (even if there is a correlation there), and for an rpg it’s good enough, and it’s a case in which the narratively satisfying approach is going to be better than the realistic/simulationist one anyway. We like imagining how Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are both equally skilled swordsmen despite their very different builds. SotDL doesn’t let stat bonuses add to damage in any case, and with Strength also adding to Health and Agility also adding to Defense, it evens out.

Disagree about Con being equal to Str. Yes often there is a connection, but there is so much more to Con than just being physically durable, mental strength aids survival, a strong immune system, good cardio will provide better endurance and ability to go without air longer before disability / death etc.

Agree high Str / low Con would be an unusual combination, but low-average Str and a high Con is not nearly so uncommon. Lots of very healthy athletes that don't emphasize upper body strength (which is really what is being measured with most Str stats), runners and professional dancers being some obvious examples of generally very healthy but not necessarily strong people. Even geeky health fanatics would probably fall into that category so long as they are following a good plan, and not some fad of the week. When it comes to a con roll to survive there are many examples of people who seem an unlikely survivor while others who appeared to be much more fit and prepared die. Will to live is an actual thing and it is often external to physical health.

Some modern body builders probably have a lower Con than they would be expected to due to poor health choices in the pursuit of strength / muscle mass.

 

[TJS]

Constituion i D&D is:
Physical fitness and condition
Ability to take damage
Susceptibility to various conditions
Recovery time from illness or injury
Mental toughness and ability to injure pain
Just plain luck

Given all the things involved folding it into strength is one option and if you had to fold all those things into a single ability score it would be the one that makes the most sense, but you could also just break it up completely and fold it into other things.

Luck is just a product of D&D's very abstract hit points, so isn't needed in other systems.

Mental toughness can be a mental ability score which lets you simulate the fiction of the supertough determined warrior who fights on despite pain and injury. Or it can be folded into something like Pendragon's passions where mental toughness is related to how much your PC has invested in their current struggle.

Susceptibity is often just random dumb luck. You can be the fittest athlete in the world and still be susceptible to altitutide sickness. (At some point a lot of game systems became very reluctant to ever have pure randomness that is not linked to a player ability in some way - but this has a distorting effect sometimes).

Ability to take damage could be releated to size. Recovery time is in many ways a function of age - it depends a lot on what exactly you're recovering from.

My personal feeling is that if you have some kind of ability for strength/conditioning and another that represents mental toughness, then you have the basis to basically derive what you need if you want the combination, while being also able to separate them out for instances where only one is relevant.