July is "Independence from Hasbro" Month

[Endless Flight]

The fire seems to be dying down. Let me throw on another log.

Hasbro removes artist's signature from D&D movie poster

On April 28th, Jeff wrote in the Fans of the art of Jeff Easley Facebook group that he acquired a copy of the print that was first released on March 29.

www.geeknative.com

Disgusting. Have they no shame?

 

[thebigh]

Disgusting. Have they no shame?

Easley's being a better sport than I would in his position.

 

[Gringnr]

Wow... removing Easley's sig will not go over well with fans at all. Blunder after blunder, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to assume they'll slip the noose. Did Elon buy WotC or something?

 

[James Gillen]

I've said it before, but I simply don't think a corporation of Hasbro's size can ever support a hobby game like D&D over the long term. It's survived this long purely on the dying embers of culture from when WotC was a real game company. Once those embers go out, Hasbro is never going to be able to re-ignite them.

Hasbro is the analogue version of Electronic Arts. Once they truly run the actual game of D&D into the game, they'll just keep looking for other ways to make money off the name, maybe crossing it over with another brand they own: Axis and Allies: D&D-Day.

I'd play that.

JG

 

[Ossian]

I think D&D will continue to thrive regardless of Hasbro’s mistakes. I don’t think people that are primarily D&D players (not DMs) typically know or care what’s going on in the industry, and will continue to want to play D&D over other games they’ve never heard of that aren’t called D&D.

 

[Necrozius]

I think D&D will continue to thrive regardless of Hasbro’s mistakes. I don’t think people that are primarily D&D players (not DMs) typically know or care what’s going on in the industry, and will continue to want to play D&D over other games they’ve never heard of that aren’t called D&D.

You’d be surprised. I have some rather normie friends who jumped in quite rabidly when I mentioned my displeasure with Hasbro. They were all “we’re all switching to Pathfinder”. The youtubers and influencers that they follow told them to do so.

 

[Necrozius]

Wow... removing Easley's sig will not go over well with fans at all. Blunder after blunder, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to assume they'll slip the noose. Did Elon buy WotC or something?

Do modern fans even know or care about who Jeff Easley is? Unless he was name dropped by a Tik Tok star or a celebrity on Stranger Things, of course.

I’m genuinely surprised that they hired him in the first place. Analog boomer artist? Puh-lease!

 

[malc]

I think D&D will continue to thrive regardless of Hasbro’s mistakes. I don’t think people that are primarily D&D players (not DMs) typically know or care what’s going on in the industry, and will continue to want to play D&D over other games they’ve never heard of that aren’t called D&D.

This is probably true, except for two possibilities as far as I can see. If Critical Role switch systems then that would probably take a huge part of D&Ds player base with them. Or, if WotC/Hasbro proceed down the path of making D&D online-only (in their desperate quest to monetise the game), that would most likely cause a massive exodus to something like Tales of the Valiant…

 

[Ossian]

You’d be surprised. I have some rather normie friends who jumped in quite rabidly when I mentioned my displeasure with Hasbro. They were all “we’re all switching to Pathfinder”. The youtubers and influencers that they follow told them to do so.

That’s a great point. I know the people I play with have favorite YouTube influencers, by which they became interested in D&D. I wonder what would happen if those same influencers switched from D&D. I suppose a group’s GM is a bit of an influencer as well.

 

[Bilharzia]

I was thinking about how this would have impacted my finances over the years. If only I did this every month, then my bank account would be ... oh drat... exactly the same as it is now.

 

[sharps54]

I’ll believe in mass migrations away from D&D when I see it. Ultimately the only mainstream post TSR D20 fantasy game I’m interested in is DCC so WotC’s survival only matters to me to the extent the TSR material remains accessible for new players.

 

[robertsconley]

I’ll believe in mass migrations away from D&D when I see it. Ultimately the only mainstream post TSR D20 fantasy game I’m interested in is DCC so WotC’s survival only matters to me to the extent the TSR material remains accessible for new players.

I think D&D will continue to thrive regardless of Hasbro’s mistakes. I don’t think people that are primarily D&D players (not DMs) typically know or care what’s going on in the industry, and will continue to want to play D&D over other games they’ve never heard of that aren’t called D&D.

That is not the debate. The debate is over whether folks will get their D&D from Hasbro or somebody else.

 

[AsenRG]

It really is amazing how much one company can burn so much good will in such a short space of time.

They'll just keep digging that hole...

Current corporate thinking perceives ‘goodwill’ as something they can manufacture, as opposed to an organic quality that exists outside their power to control. So I would argue the board does not believe in the same things we, as drones, believe in.

And it's up to us drones to impose our reality!

You know, by combined purchasing power. Totally not by combining our collective will and imposing it on the reality, this ain't Mage! No sir, not at all!

By 'the board' to whom do you refer? If you mean the Hasbro board, then the continued massive, inbred, and astonishing misreading of the hobby continues unfettered.

"We need to get out of that hole, boys and girls! Full steam ahead, keep digging!"
Though one can argue that in this, they're following in TSR's footsteps.

The first time I saw MtG, I watched two people who owned the comic store thinking of purchasing the game, play it.
At the end of this, there was a discussion of their sales model. “Ah,” I said. “The old baseball card model.”

...interesting observation.

Well, the good news, in the cynical sense, is that the only people in the world more short-sighted than gamers are corporate executives. If WotC has a crappy July then Hasbro may just can a bunch of middle managers before they even see the August numbers. Just look at what happened with Bud Light.

If we can't count on their vision and planning, we can count on their short-sightedness, right? I mean, usually people have at least one of those two qualities, often in abundance.

You’d be surprised. I have some rather normie friends who jumped in quite rabidly when I mentioned my displeasure with Hasbro. They were all “we’re all switching to Pathfinder”. The youtubers and influencers that they follow told them to do so.

...I'm glad to hear this, yet it's a truly dark day when we rely on influencers to get people to behave consciously!

This is probably true, except for two possibilities as far as I can see. If Critical Role switch systems then that would probably take a huge part of D&Ds player base with them. Or, if WotC/Hasbro proceed down the path of making D&D online-only (in their desperate quest to monetise the game), that would most likely cause a massive exodus to something like Tales of the Valiant…

Didn't Critical Role announce their own system?

 

[malc]

Didn't Critical Role announce their own system?

Systems. One for short campaigns, one for long-term campaigns and character development. You know, exactly what CR do on their show...

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

TBH, that strategy has worked out for M:tG. If it's at all doable with RPGs, you can expect Wotc/Hasbro to do it.

My shitty, cynical take is that if gamers couldn't quit WotC when its actions threatened damn near everyone in the entire RPG hobby, they're not going to quit WotC for threatening one YouTuber. The furor over this won't last nearly as long, and Magic players are even more entrenched than D&D players. Hell, there are way more viable alternatives - damn near reproductions, in fact - to D&D than there are to Magic, and people still begged WotC to stay. What are Magic players gonna do? Play Yu-Gi-Oh instead? Please.

Magic's market dominance makes D&D look like a medium-sized fish in a very small pond. But WotC should take heart. While their recent shenanigans may have cost them some "goodwill," they've also shown that there is a very hard core of fans willing to go down with the ship.

And to be even shittier and more cynical, a month-long boycott is a dumb idea. WotC knows full well that in this case, "boycott" just means "buy next month." It will have a negligible effect on their bottom line this year. At least compared to OGLgate.

I don't know, if Wizards took all their clothes off and then punched a baby onstage things would likely escalate.

And if it was any other company I'd categorically rule that out, but it's Wizards.

 

[AsenRG]

Systems. One for short campaigns, one for long-term campaigns and character development. You know, exactly what CR do on their show...

Well, twice the bleed, then, right?

 

[Ladybird]

At about the same time as the WotC calls the Pinkertons stuff was going on, Games Workshop sent out an unannounced model early... and not only did they let the lucky buyer keep it, not only did they move the official announcement up because hey it was out there anyway, they also joked about it.

If you are making Games Workshop look good, you gone done fucked up real bad.

(A cynic might suggest that this was an "accident" rather than an accident - it's certainly possible - but regardless, it's still out there.)

I don't know, if Wizards took all their clothes off and then punched a baby onstage things would likely escalate.

And if it was any other company I'd categorically rule that out, but it's Wizards.

 

[Degeneration roller]

One of the few things I'm proud of in my gaming life is having never given WotC any money, I was gifted the slipcase set of 5e for my birthday by a friend, checked the books out and was really unimpressed, the only reason I didn't sell it is because it wouldn't be very polite towards my friend, fuck WotC.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Games Workshop have actually dialled stuff like IP enforcement back a lot in the last few years. Probably entirely cynically, but they had the sense to realise they were messing up their bottom line.

 

[Baulderstone]

TBH, that strategy has worked out for M:tG. If it's at all doable with RPGs, you can expect Wotc/Hasbro to do it.

My shitty, cynical take is that if gamers couldn't quit WotC when its actions threatened damn near everyone in the entire RPG hobby, they're not going to quit WotC for threatening one YouTuber. The furor over this won't last nearly as long, and Magic players are even more entrenched than D&D players. Hell, there are way more viable alternatives - damn near reproductions, in fact - to D&D than there are to Magic, and people still begged WotC to stay. What are Magic players gonna do? Play Yu-Gi-Oh instead? Please.

Magic's market dominance makes D&D look like a medium-sized fish in a very small pond. But WotC should take heart. While their recent shenanigans may have cost them some "goodwill," they've also shown that there is a very hard core of fans willing to go down with the ship.

And to be even shittier and more cynical, a month-long boycott is a dumb idea. WotC knows full well that in this case, "boycott" just means "buy next month." It will have a negligible effect on their bottom line this year. At least compared to OGLgate.

The dick moves that WotC has made recently might not have driven everyone away, but they are just symptoms of Hasbro being out of touch with gamers. That's a bigger threat to their market dominance. If they don't understand gamers, they are going to make increasingly fewer products that actually appeal to gamers.

I feel like Hasbro D&D is increasingly becoming like Disney Star Wars, a company making products with no actual idea who is it trying to sell them too. They also engage in a lot of similar divisive marketing that shaving off customers.

Remember with Sandy Petersen that in addition to writing Call of Cthulhu he also co-wrote (with Greg Stafford and Lynn Willis - both now deceased) the Ghostbusters rpg, whose system was lifted and expanded into the WEG Star Wars D6 system which was VERY influential on other 90s-era games like Shadowrun and Vampire (basically anything that uses dice pool resolution and prioritizes cinematic “rule of cool” logic over straight simulation). He also was Greg’s close collaborator on Glorantha in the 80s, co-writing several classic products like Trollpak and the Glorantha boxed set that still forms most of the spine of that setting, and after leaving rpgs went to work for iD Studios where he was part of the creative team behind Doom and Quake, and was also big in the LARP scene.

He’s probably my #1 choice, alongside Miller, Chadwick, Pondsmith, Costikyan, and (begrudgingly because I don’t particularly like their games) Tweet and Rein-dot-Hagen.

The sanity mechanic alone is hugely influential. Almost every game with sanity rules is some variant on Petersen's system, including things like cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk and Humanity in Vampire.

He also popularized the investigative adventure model, one the basic adventure templates today.

He [Mike Pondsmith] was always very ahead-of-trends. He also wrote and published a steampunk rpg (Castle Falkenstein) before that genre became popular, and a comedy anime rpg (Teenagers From Outer Space) so far before that genre became popular that the first edition (from 1987!) doesn’t actually mention its inspirations and unless you were already in the know comes off as a total wtf oddity.

The “lifepath” chargen of Mekton and Cyberpunk was also innovative and influential - going beyond the career-oriented Traveller model to add a bunch of personal connections - friends, enemies, ex-lovers - bringing each character into the game was a ready-made set of soap opera plots.

Yes, Pondsmith is a master of seeing a genre and realizing its a gaming potential. He even put out Castle Falkenstein before steampunk really took off in the gaming scene.

 

[T. Foster]

The dick moves that WotC has made recently might not have driven everyone away, but they are just symptoms of Hasbro being out of touch with gamers. That's a bigger threat to their market dominance. If they don't understand gamers, they are going to make increasingly fewer products that actually appeal to gamers.

I feel like Hasbro D&D is increasingly becoming like Disney Star Wars, a company making products with no actual idea who is it trying to sell them too. They also engage in a lot of similar divisive marketing that shaving off customers.

The sanity mechanic alone is hugely influential. Almost every game with sanity rules is some variant on Petersen's system, including things like cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk and Humanity in Vampire.

He also popularized the investigative adventure model, one the basic adventure templates today.

Yes, Pondsmith is a master of seeing a genre and realizing it’s a gaming potential. He even put out Castle Falkenstein before steampunk really took off in the gaming scene.

FYI it looks like you multi-quoted me into the wrong thread

 

[Baulderstone]

FYI it looks like you multi-quoted me into the wrong thread

This is why I shouldn't post on 4 hours sleep.

 

[Gringnr]

Me at 21: caffeine is an acceptable substitute for sleep

Me at 51: no the hell it's not

 

[Silverlion]

The last thing I purchased from Hasbro for D&D was the Swordcoast Adventurer's Guide (I want Bladesingers to be hones--good ones.) So I've kind of been free from Hasbro-DND for a while. I mean I've bought a couple of Transformers since then, but I buy so very few of those. I've been finding some of the "Third Party" designs better and made with higher quality materials. It's highly unlikely I'll buy anything much from them ever again though, I've almost all the Transformers I want but one Third Party Jetfire. It sucks is it's just out of my price range at 190-ish dollars.

 

[Bunch]

This is why I shouldn't post on 4 hours sleep.

Now what happens when you post on 2 hours of sleep? (Investigates cost of renting a matching band for an evening.....)

 

[Baulderstone]

Now what happens when you post on 2 hours of sleep? (Investigates cost of renting a matching band for an evening.....)

 

[Baulderstone]

The previous post was my actual answer.

 

[Triumvir]

Amusing video. Wizards pays money to get their “ethics” awards. You can’t make this shit up.

Absolutely not surprised. A marketing guy at a company I used to work for once explained to me how the awards run by the trade magazine in our industry were a shakedown. The magazine told us we could "improve our profile with voters" by sponsoring their events and taking out advertising. Now with ESG investing there is even more scope for this kind of thing.

Games Workshop have actually dialled stuff like IP enforcement back a lot in the last few years. Probably entirely cynically, but they had the sense to realise they were messing up their bottom line.

Huh interesting. I am not that into GW, but a guy I know who is buys his minis from a pirate caster in China. He was reluctant to disclose the site to me because apparently GW recently successfully persuaded the Chinese authorities to shut down a bunch of pirates and he is worried for the caster's survival.

Probably part of a much bigger trade-diplomatic deal rather than Beijing getting worried GW would send in the Blood Angels, I guess.

 

[malc]

Games Workshop have actually dialled stuff like IP enforcement back a lot in the last few years. Probably entirely cynically, but they had the sense to realise they were messing up their bottom line.

If Games Workshop are the good guys then I think you’ll find that reality is on the blink again First time in 36 years…

 

[Psychopomp]

Games Workshop is still enforcing their IP as hard as they can, it's just mostly in the form of C&D letters to 3d sculptors and hosting services. They're picking and choosing their actual court fights more wisely these days, after being embarrassed by finding themselves claiming the concepts of space marines and roman helmets in the Chapterhouse case and losing. Instead, they bide their time until a small indie creator makes something that's not-quite-legally-distinct enough and bully whatever online store or subscription service the creator uses into taking them down, unchallenged, because of a scary trademark- or copyright-related Cease and Desist letter.

 

[sharps54]

That is not the debate. The debate is over whether folks will get their D&D from Hasbro or somebody else.

They’ll get it from Hasbro as long as they own it. The unwashed masses will never consider Swords & Wizardry, OSE, & whatever stupid name Kobold Press picks as anything but oddities.

We might not like that answer but statistically it is the most likely outcome.

 

[S'mon]

I can hardly believe that when WoTC put 5e in the CC, I actually thought I might buy something from them again - "Maybe Planescape" - this despite their long string of garbage tier product. Fuck WoTC, I hope they burn in Hell.

 

[Necrozius]

They’ll get it from Hasbro as long as they own it. The unwashed masses will never consider Swords & Wizardry, OSE, & whatever stupid name Kobold Press picks as anything but oddities.

We might not like that answer but statistically it is the most likely outcome.

Corpos only have to pump money for advertising in a Netflix show or pay influencers to start trending #D&D to get regular people excited all over again.

 

[malc]

They’ll get it from Hasbro as long as they own it. The unwashed masses will never consider Swords & Wizardry, OSE, & whatever stupid name Kobold Press picks as anything but oddities.

We might not like that answer but statistically it is the most likely outcome.

History might say otherwise. D&D has been around as long as the hobby has. It hasn’t always been the best selling RPG. It really depends how much WotC/Hasbro are prepared to continue alienating their customer base in the quest for monetisation.

Remember, Hasbro owned D&D when, due entirely to their own decisions, Pathfinder was the best seller. T$R contrived to go bust. When it comes down to it, Hasbro needs the hobby a lot more than the hobby needs Hasbro.

”Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.”

 

[Voros]

Professor Dungeonmaster has declared July, "Independence from Hasbro" month, in order to spotlight non-Hasbro games. We'll see if this gains any traction.

This dude should just shit or get off the pot. Stop covering WotC D&D. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen...

 

[Necrozius]

This dude should just shit or get off the pot. Stop covering WotC D&D. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen...

The entire point of his WotC vids is to stop supporting them and instead support any of the myriad other, similar games by better companies.

Also, he's full-on admitted that he gets more clicks and revenue when he talks about this subject.

EDIT But I agree, ENOUGH with the Whot-SEE!!

 

[robertsconley]

They’ll get it from Hasbro as long as they own it. The unwashed masses will never consider Swords & Wizardry, OSE, & whatever stupid name Kobold Press picks as anything but oddities.

We might not like that answer but statistically it is the most likely outcome.

Maybe but a Hasbro free hobby is no longer an implausible outcome.

 

[AsenRG]

The dick moves that WotC has made recently might not have driven everyone away, but they are just symptoms of Hasbro being out of touch with gamers. That's a bigger threat to their market dominance. If they don't understand gamers, they are going to make increasingly fewer products that actually appeal to gamers.

I feel like Hasbro D&D is increasingly becoming like Disney Star Wars, a company making products with no actual idea who is it trying to sell them too. They also engage in a lot of similar divisive marketing that shaving off customers.

Hopefully!

The sanity mechanic alone is hugely influential. Almost every game with sanity rules is some variant on Petersen's system, including things like cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk and Humanity in Vampire.

Unknown Armies say "hi". I mean, sure, you can look at it as "10 different interlinked variations of Petersen's system applying to the same character", but that's not really helpful...

So I guess I should nominate Greg Stolze here!

He also popularized the investigative adventure model, one the basic adventure templates today.

Yup.

Yes, Pondsmith is a master of seeing a genre and realizing its a gaming potential. He even put out Castle Falkenstein before steampunk really took off in the gaming scene.

Sure, Pondsmith is right up there with the best of them! I just believe Marc Miller is a bit more influential than either him or Stolze, and the thread is about "the most", not just a "very influential people"!

They’ll get it from Hasbro as long as they own it. The unwashed masses will never consider Swords & Wizardry, OSE, & whatever stupid name Kobold Press picks as anything but oddities.

We might not like that answer but statistically it is the most likely outcome.

...I hate the "unwashed masses" line.
Also, with YouTube and stuff, the masses - regardless of hygiene - are actually knowing a lot more than you'd expect them to.

History might say otherwise. D&D has been around as long as the hobby has. It hasn’t always been the best selling RPG. It really depends how much WotC/Hasbro are prepared to continue alienating their customer base in the quest for monetisation.

Remember, Hasbro owned D&D when, due entirely to their own decisions, Pathfinder was the best seller. T$R contrived to go bust. When it comes down to it, Hasbro needs the hobby a lot more than the hobby needs Hasbro.

”Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.”

Maybe but a Hasbro free hobby is no longer an implausible outcome.

May you be right!

 

[Tommy Brownell]

Professor Dungeonmaster has declared July, "Independence from Hasbro" month, in order to spotlight non-Hasbro games. We'll see if this gains any traction.

Thank God that *checks notes* someone I've never heard of told me to boycott WotC.

The contrarian in me wants to get caught up on 5e in July, but I'll probably just keep on playing Savage Worlds instead.

 

[UnplayedRanger]

Play what you want to play, and don’t play what you don’t want to play. Pretty simple. I play and support a variety of games from publishers, indie or otherwise.

But hey, I actually like 5e. It’s fine. It’s not the only game I wanna play. But it’s fine. It’s superhero fantasy, and it does it well imo. As long as my friends and I get enjoyment out of it, I’ll keep playing it and buying the books I wanna buy.