Marvel Superheroes RPG (FASERIP) Retrospective

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It's not good news in the realm of comics. There's been a rumor circulating the past couple of days that Disney plans to shut down Marvel Comics. Now, I don't believe it personally, and Joe Quesada spent most of yesterday denying it. However, it is undeniable that the sales of Marvel Comics is currently in the toilet for various reasons and Disney may eventually see it as a loss. It especially doesn't look good that Disney is currently outsourcing their children's Star Wars and Marvel comic book lines to IDW Publishing instead of... you know... Marvel.

Warner Bros. (which owned DC Comics), was bought by AT&T last year and renamed WarnerMedia. Word on the street is that when a high-level AT&T executive finally met the executives at DC Entertainment, the first thing he said is, "Wait, why are you still printing anything?"
 
Marvel and DC have less competition than ever before because the comics business is spread out further and further. They call them the Big Two for a reason. There’s never going to be a third.
 
Edgewise said:
At risk of derailing the game discussion slightly, I'm wondering how folks would characterize the current "age" of comics.
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From an outsider's perspective, I'd almost be tempted to call it the Manga Age. My perception is that Japanese comics have captured the youth market and have a stronger retail and cultural presence than Marvel & DC combined at the moment.
 
Silverlion said:
I always tend to think of Watchman and The Dark Knight, as indicators of the Dark Age.
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I think in the same way Silver Age comics were deconstructions of Golden Age tropes, the Image Age was heralded by several works deconstructing Silver Age genre conventions. Moore's Watchmen/Killing Joke, Frank Miller's Dark Knight/Batman: Year One, Vietch's Maxximortal/Bratpack all fall into that category for me, and I think ultimately the tragedy of the dark age was that less talented writers embraced the deconstruction but not the necessary reconstruction required, leading to a morass of grimdark and angst that lacked maturity.

The reconstruction works eventually came (1963, Tom Strong, Promethea. Marvels, Starman, JLA: Year One, etc), but was postponed (placed in "arrested development") by the Collector's Boom.
 
TristramEvans said:
From an outsider's perspective, I'd almost be tempted to call it the Manga Age. My perception is that Japanese comics have captured the youth market and have a stronger retail and cultural presence than Marvel & DC combined at the moment.
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DC Comics tried to combat that by starting an all new graphic novel line with its own continuity outside of the regular comic books, called Earth One, nine years ago. They've been publishing one or two new Earth One graphic novels a year since, but it didn't make a dent into manga that they hoped it would.
 
Apparition said:
DC Comics tried to combat that by starting an all new graphic novel line with its own continuity outside of the regular comic books, called Earth One, nine years ago. They've been publishing one or two new Earth One graphic novels a year since, but it didn't make a dent into manga that they hoped it would.
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I hadn't seen those, are they any good?
 
They're not bad. They've published three Superman Earth One graphic novels, two Batman Earth One graphic novels, two Teen Titans Earth One graphic novels, two Wonder Woman Earth One graphic novels, and a Green Lantern Earth One graphic novel. Next up is The Flash, IIRC. The main problem is that they're coming out slowly. Grant Morrison is writing the Wonder Woman Earth One graphic novels and Geoff Johns is writing the Batman Earth One graphic novels, and speed demons they are not. The other problem is that they all make changes to the characters, some good, some not so much.

In the Superman ones for instance, Lex Luthor is a woman, and General Zod is his uncle. Of course, since then, the Krypton show on the Syfy Channel took that and ran with it.

Bruce Wayne never traveled the world. Instead, he stayed in Gotham and was trained by badass former MI-6 agent Alfred Pennyworth. Which seems to be the direction that the new Pennyworth television series is going.
 
TristramEvans said:
From an outsider's perspective, I'd almost be tempted to call it the Manga Age.
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That's very interesting. Not only have I become more interested in manga and anime in the last year, but I've become especially interested in Japanese takes on traditional Western formulas. Goblin Slayer was a breath of fresh (and slightly problematic) air to OSR, and I've enjoyed both My Hero Academia and (especially) One Punch Man's takes on superheroes.

But on the other hand, I keep hearing that there are good things coming out of Marvel/DC these days, quality-wise, and a lot of the art I see is, IMO, far more interesting and even superior to what I see in most manga. I'm the sort of guy who really appreciates the kind of cross-pollination you see going back to Segio Leone and Akira Kurosawa. It would be a real shame if traditional American comics die out, because I believe that they still have a lot to offer.
 
TristramEvans said:
I don't think comics will ever die out, but I suspect I may see the move to digital completed in my lifetime
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And I'd be totally fine with that. Actually, I'm sure that comics will always exist in some form. Maybe the superhero genre will fade a bit...who knows?
 
Apparition said:
It's not good news in the realm of comics. There's been a rumor circulating the past couple of days that Disney plans to shut down Marvel Comics. Now, I don't believe it personally, and Joe Quesada spent most of yesterday denying it. However, it is undeniable that the sales of Marvel Comics is currently in the toilet for various reasons and Disney may eventually see it as a loss. It especially doesn't look good that Disney is currently outsourcing their children's Star Wars and Marvel comic book lines to IDW Publishing instead of... you know... Marvel.

Warner Bros. (which owned DC Comics), was bought by AT&T last year and renamed WarnerMedia. Word on the street is that when a high-level AT&T executive finally met the executives at DC Entertainment, the first thing he said is, "Wait, why are you still printing anything?"
Click to expand...

That seems highly unlikely. Superhero comics are still making money just not the kind of money the films do. And TPB and booktore sales are growing more and more every year, it is the monthly Direct Sale comic books sales that are relatively soft. And comics for kids are selling very well.
 
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The biggest detriment to comics has been Marvel’s and DC’s practices over the years. Their bullshit has made comic book stores an endangered species.
 
Al Milgrom filled in on ASM during the Andru years, didn’t he?
 
Andru was gone by then. I was close!
 
ExCrusader said:
I grew up playing Advanced, but the Battle Book might be the crown jewel of the entire line. It’s the book that actually explained how to play, not just what the rules were, and it’s also incredibly approachable in my opinion. I found some of the basic concepts just weren’t explained well in Advanced. Advanced also makes the occasional reference to Basic, though it claims it isn’t needed to play. My own personal table copy of FASERIP has the Battle Book integrated into Advanced. I think it actually makes for a better book overall.
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Welcome to the Pub!

When I play TSR's Marvel Super Heroes, the yellow box material is primary and the "Advanced" version and the Ultimate Powers Book are just supplements for more power and talent options, really. I'd be happy just using the yellow set and winging additional powers as needed.

(Now that I'm playing Boot Hill and OD&D, I should go whole-TSR-hog and start playing Marvel Super Heroes, Indiana Jones, Star Frontiers, Conan, and Gangbusters. I don't think there was a TSR RPG we didn't play back in the early '80s!)
 
From the introduction we move to a 2-page spread that covers a character's Abilities and their Rankings.

And speaking of art, we're treated to some classic Byrne.

47276212801_e70205ecd4_c.jpg


I admit to having complex thoughts regarding Byrne. I've hated his art post-Man of Steel, but thought his Bronze Age art was overall Excellent (20)*, sometimes even Remarkable (30).** His writing is hit or not-quite-miss, sometimes good (She-Hulk, Hellboy), sometimes not so good but not bad, but sometimes contained...suspect stuff*** And he personally leaves a bit to be desired; his tantrums and vendettas against other comicbook creators aren't exactly industry secrets, nor his incredibly narcissistic statement regarding Kirby's death. But he was also known to be very generous and helpful to new people trying to get into the industry and very nice to fans. I guess, in the end, he's a human, and all the contradictions that implies. Regardless, sometimes I really love his Spidey from this era, and the above picture is one of those times.

* except for the unfortunate "cookie-cutter face" syndrome that affected so many third-generation comic artists
**My suspicion is that my intense dislike of "modern Byrne" may have to do with him inking himself now. But also his "creative" use of panels look awful.
***Look up why Invisible Girl changed her name to The Invisible Woman. Or how he introduced Kirby's Big Barda in Man of Steel.
 
The 'F" in FASERIP of course stands for Fighting. MSH remains surprisingly rare among RPGs in including a combat attribute, but I am inclined to see this not only as a good thing, but also a more 'realistic' approach. Practically, in the context of the game, it allows less overtly super-powered characters such as Captain America (or Batman in DCspeak) to bridge the gap between them and powerhouses such as The Hulk*. D&D's use of Strength to determine successful hits in close combat, an abstraction held over from wargames, never sat right with me. Games that subsequently transferred that role to Agility/Dexterity inevitably created a "Godstat."

Moreover, as someone who spent a large portion of their youth studying martial arts, and an inordinate portion of their adulthood reading books about combat, it's very clear to me that hand-to-hand combat involves it's own unique ombination of training, experience, and talent that does not automatically map to physical fitness.

It's also worth noting that Fighting is also unique among FASERIP's abilities in that it defaults to Poor (4) rather than Typical (6) for an "average" human adult**, which is incredibly appropriate for the game's setting of the modern Western world, where physical conflict is neither a part of most people's daily routine, nor figures into our culture's education during youth.

* Both Cap and Bats have fought Hulk in the Bronze Age
**A typical civilian bystander has the stats "F Pr A Ty S Ty E Ty R Ty I Ty P Ty"
 
The 'A" in FASERIP stands for Agility, covering a character's coordination, aim, and dexterity. In other words, the precision of the character's movements. It is employed both to resolve ranged attacks and to Dodge them. While this doesn't distinguish manual dexterity, certain characters have a separate Agility score for aiming*. At least in this first edition, for some reason this idea was never expanded upon in the Advanced Rules.

The 'S" in FASERIP stands for Strength, 'Nuff Said.

The 'E" in FASERIP stands for Endurance, a character's stamina, resilience, and general physical fitness. In other terms, FASERIP's "Constitution" stat. This Ability is used to resist injury, maintain peak performance, and hold one's breath. In another nice twist of Simulationism, Endurance also determines how fast a character can run.

*Hawkeye and Bullseye as prime examples
 
Just caught up on this thread and since I happen to be in an obsessive mode of "all things FASERIP," I'm happy to be here.

Re: Al Milgrom. Back in the 80s and 90s, my artist friend (who has worked in the industry) and I loved to make fun of Milgrom as the 2nd stringer he is...but I would gladly take his art over a *lot* of the modern darlings who - to me - make everyone look ugly. IMO, unless you're Mastermind or the Toad, everybody should be attractive in comics. :smile:
 
TristramEvans said:
...certain characters have a separate Agility score for aiming*. At least in this first edition, for some reason this idea was never expanded upon in the Advanced Rules.

*Hawkeye and Bullseye as prime examples
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Was that because you could get a Talent that covers it?
 
drkrash said:
Back in the 80s and 90s, my artist friend (who has worked in the industry) and I loved to make fun of Milgrom as the 2nd stringer he is...but I would gladly take his art over a *lot* of the modern darlings who - to me - make everyone look ugly.
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That "second string" sure looks good today, eh? :wink:
 
My favorite artist of all time is Jim Cheung, who’s currently working for DC and has worked for Marvel as well. I’m waiting for him to come to Boston Fan Expo so he can sign some of my books. Some of his covers:

50ECC787-B8FC-4FE1-B64E-44D3E0E0C19E.jpeg77177EBB-549F-48CE-8C2D-185007D7291F.jpeg71F9E890-610C-4D56-9FF4-31EF8BF2FE63.jpeg

Draws some nice eye candy too...

36F9BB1B-9713-46A3-B4BD-54C68D9D4E88.jpeg

Hubba, hubba!
 
Dumarest said:
Was that because you could get a Talent that covers it?
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My impression is that it' was originally a "system patch" more than anything, but treated as a superpower. It's only mentioned once, in the Campaign Book on pg 4:

""Because of superpowers, some Heroes have a special accuracy rank that is higher than their Agility Rank. For example, Hawkeye has Remarkable Agility, but when using his special bow and arrows, his accuracy is Amazing."

If Hawkeye took the Talent "Bows" this would only raise his Agility to Incredible when using the bow, and of course, why mention it specifically under the description of Agility? Looking at the Advanced Judge's book, however, under Talents Hawkeye gets a +3 CS from possessing "Weapon Specialist" + "Marksman", meaning his accuracy with a bow is instead Monstrous. But looking at the later Gamer's Handbook to the Marvel Universe under Hawkeye's entry it says just that "Hawkeye has Incredible Archery", suggesting it could come from a Talent, or could simply be a unique "Power", or they just forgot that he could get multiple CS from Talents. But the entry for him in the 2e Basic Set gives Hawkeye the Talents Marksman, Weapon Specialist, and Bow, again giving him Monstrous accuracy when using his bow.

It's mentioned only once here in the original game. If it was, as I take the notation in the basic set to imply, originally an idea that certain specialized characters could develope an "Accuracy" attribute separate from Agility, I think that yeah it was abandoned as something covered by Talents (if inconsistently applied).

In Phaserip I addressed the Issue by the addition of the "Ultimate Skill!" rule, wherein a Talent marked by a "shebang notation" (exclamation mark) allows a Hero to roll as if their attribute was Unearthly. So a character with Archery would get a bonus of +1 to their Agility when using a bow, but a character with Archery! treats their Agility as Unearthly when using a bow.
 
TristramEvans said:
From the introduction we move to a 2-page spread that covers a character's Abilities and their Rankings.

And speaking of art, we're treated to some classic Byrne.



I admit to having complex thoughts regarding Byrne. I've hated his art post-Man of Steel, but thought his Bronze Age art was overall Excellent (20)*, sometimes even Remarkable (30).** His writing is hit or not-quite-miss, sometimes good (She-Hulk, Hellboy), sometimes not so good but not bad, but sometimes contained...suspect stuff*** And he personally leaves a bit to be desired; his tantrums and vendettas against other comicbook creators aren't exactly industry secrets, nor his incredibly narcissistic statement regarding Kirby's death. But he was also known to be very generous and helpful to new people trying to get into the industry and very nice to fans. I guess, in the end, he's a human, and all the contradictions that implies. Regardless, sometimes I really love his Spidey from this era, and the above picture is one of those times.

* except for the unfortunate "cookie-cutter face" syndrome that affected so many third-generation comic artists
**My suspicion is that my intense dislike of "modern Byrne" may have to do with him inking himself now. But also his "creative" use of panels look awful.
***Look up why Invisible Girl changed her name to The Invisible Woman. Or how he introduced Kirby's Big Barda in Man of Steel.
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Not a fan of Byrne as an artist or writer. His run on FF is well liked but I never took to his transformation of Reed from pulp action scientist to nerd and the less said about Malice the better.
 
TristramEvans said:
The 'F" in FASERIP of course stands for Fighting. MSH remains surprisingly rare among RPGs in including a combat attribute, but I am inclined to see this not only as a good thing, but also a more 'realistic' approach.
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I tend to use Fighting and the corresponding Shooting as traits in most of my homebrew Fudge builds. It's beautifully direct. I kind of like where possible to express the traits you roll as verbs or alteast actions. I also like to have just one list of triats to roll on, like Fate, so whether Figthing is an attribute or a skill doesn't matter, it is something you do, a lot.
 
Endless Flight said:
My favorite artist of all time is Jim Cheung, who’s currently working for DC and has worked for Marvel as well. I’m waiting for him to come to Boston Fan Expo so he can sign some of my books. Some of his covers:
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Interesting, not previously aware of him, will have to look up some more of his stuff.

I'd have a hard time picking an overall favourite. My first instinct would be to say Mike Mignola, but I wouldn't want Mike doing Spider-man. Instead I think it's more that I have a favourite for each character (In Spidey's case Jazzy John Romita).
 
Endless Flight said:
I really like the idea of separating agility into two stats: overall body control and fine motor skills. Any time I work on a home brew I usually split it.
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I used to do this constantly because it's completely realistic. How else can I model a fat sniper or a gymnast who...sucks at darts? But these days I'm a little more reluctant, because I end up with base attributes that have greatly varied usefulness. Basically, the only things you end up using an Accuracy stat for, in a FRPG, would be missile weapons and picking locks/pockets. So it ends up being a dump stat for everyone except the ranger. It actually works better in a modern campaign where such a stat would also be used for driving/piloting, and most combat is with firearms, anyway.
 
TristramEvans said:
Interesting, not previously aware of him, will have to look up some more of his stuff.

I'd have a hard time picking an overall favourite. My first instinct would be to say Mike Mignola, but I wouldn't want Mike doing Spider-man. Instead I think it's more that I have a favourite for each character (In Spidey's case Jazzy John Romita).
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Jim does interiors too. Amazing stuff. I would have loved to have seen him do G.I.Joe if he were around in the 80s.

Here's a couple panels he did for Marvel 2 in One #1.

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Edgewise said:
I used to do this constantly because it's completely realistic. How else can I model a fat sniper or a gymnast who...sucks at darts? But these days I'm a little more reluctant, because I end up with base attributes that have greatly varied usefulness. Basically, the only things you end up using an Accuracy stat for, in a FRPG, would be missile weapons and picking locks/pockets. So it ends up being a dump stat for everyone except the ranger. It actually works better in a modern campaign where such a stat would also be used for driving/piloting, and most combat is with firearms, anyway.
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Yep, that's what my home brews usually are. Modern military adventures like G.I.Joe.
 
TristramEvans said:
...Mike Mignola, but I wouldn't want Mike doing Spider-man. Instead I think it's more that I have a favourite for each character (In Spidey's case Jazzy John Romita).
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Horses for courses! I want Gil Kane on the Atom, Joe Kubert on Hawkman, Carmine Infantino on the Flash, Neal Adams on Green Arrow, C.C. Beck on Captain Marvel...
 
It's really funny reading Jeff's historical anecdotes about MSH because they ring so familiar to me for when I was designing Marvel Heroic. Including the ban on character creation systems by the folks at Marvel (they apparently did not remember that the fans wanted character creation, but then turnover was really high at Marvel Entertainment). We weren't allowed to make any original characters, and by extension neither were any of the players! We managed to get character modelling into the book so that players could at least create their favourite Marvel heroes from the comics using the game, but it wasn't enough of a character creation system for a lot of folks. Ah well.
 
Cam Banks said:
We managed to get character modelling into the book so that players could at least create their favourite Marvel heroes from the comics using the game, but it wasn't enough of a character creation system for a lot of folks. Ah well.
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I found the character modeling section easy enough to use for creating an original character. I never really understood what was hard about that. The hardest part for me was coming up with the three tag lines (or whatever they were called, I forget the game term). I just didn't particularly care for the dice-sides-as-power-levels mechanics after playing it a few times.
 
PolarBlues said:
I see an invisible line from MSH to Fudge and Fate. I don't know how much was deliberate and how accidental, but I can see a lot of shared DNA.

The obvious connection is the adjective-based scale, which is quite a unique feature. But they are also margin of success based systems. Finally I see similarites with how Karma works and Fate's Aspects and Fate Point economy, earning Karma for doing things that are in-character, paying Karma to do something that would out of character as well to win at a cost.

Of course it all joins up in ICONS, which is probably why it works so well.

The point, I think MSH has had a greater influence on game design than is often given credit for.
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The James Bond 007 RPG is actually the genesis of almost all of these elements. Fudge is just GURPS without fine-grained point costs, and FATE started out as an Amber Diceless hack.
 
Dumarest said:
Horses for courses! I want Gil Kane on the Atom, Joe Kubert on Hawkman, Carmine Infantino on the Flash, Neal Adams on Green Arrow, C.C. Beck on Captain Marvel...
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When it comes to superhero comics my fav will always be David Mazzuchelli.

ba6410cb47ea35e38ab22bde43904d5e--marvel-heroes-marvel-comics.jpgCeuElYFWAAI_jLT.jpgtumblr_p1tyd5uMSi1trp40so1_1280.jpgBatman-1940-404-1st-Print-Frank-Miller-Year.jpgDD229_2.jpg
 
Cam Banks said:
It's really funny reading Jeff's historical anecdotes about MSH because they ring so familiar to me for when I was designing Marvel Heroic. Including the ban on character creation systems by the folks at Marvel (they apparently did not remember that the fans wanted character creation, but then turnover was really high at Marvel Entertainment). We weren't allowed to make any original characters, and by extension neither were any of the players! We managed to get character modelling into the book so that players could at least create their favourite Marvel heroes from the comics using the game, but it wasn't enough of a character creation system for a lot of folks. Ah well.
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Modeling was a bit of a revelation for young me, especially since I got yellow box MSH long before I ever encountered a system where you got to build your character. You mean I just get to make and play the character I want? I don't have to roll and roll and roll and end up with something I don't care for? It's OK? SIGN ME UP!
 
I'm a massive Jim Shooter fan. His anecdotes on the industry are ridiculously good reading. http://jimshooter.com/

(good tips on writing too)

MSH will likely always be my favorite system. Not just for Supers, but in general. Namely because it was way ahead of its time, and it took years for me to realize it. Sometime in the late 80's I remember taking my group of PC's to Asgard... and all my D&D instincts kicked in, and there we were doing super-hero fantasy (think - Asgardian Wars circa X-Men annual #9 1985) and it worked beautifully. That's when I realized how good that system was. I think to this date its been the most consistent system in my rotation of campaigns.
 
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