Most detailed non-D&D RPG settings?

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I have a system-agnostic - (in fact it's just history, no game rules) book called The Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic which outlines the world of 15th Century Central / Northern Europe. This is very detailed and used by gamers, historical fencers and re-enactors, and academic researchers. It is also quite variegated in the sense that it basically consists of dozens of different possible settings which are all quite different and unique, with a little bit of overlap linking them together politically, militarily etc.

I also have a game setting book for my Codex Game (once or twice removed from OGL rules) called the Codex Integrum Player's Guide, which is a simpler derivation of the Baltic book. This is about an order of magnitude simpler but still very rich, and (I daresay) covers an extremely interesting time and place. About 70% of this book is system agnostic, the other 30% is a life-path character generation system based in the historical setting and some other rules.

If anyone here is interested in either book, I'll send a free PDF to the first three people that contact me, via DriveThru.

We also now have Stara Szkola, a much simpler, "OSR friendly" version of CM / CI which is also (a bit more loosely) pegged to the same setting, and we are just starting to do some (simpler) setting books for that. Should have the first of those out in about two weeks.
 
Neon said:
You sir, called my bluff.
As much as I like to buy complete series blind on a whim, I'll sit this one out.
Btw what's up with selling loose pages without a binding? Are people asking for this? I'm guessing it's to lower costs but the core rules aren't cheap...
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It's an organizational thing. They're loose leaf and three hole punched for use in a binder so that when you have new material that expands on an older supplement you can drop them into place in the appropriate binder.
 
Teyrnon said:
It's an organizational thing. They're loose leaf and three hole punched for use in a binder so that when you have new material that expands on an older supplement you can drop them into place in the appropriate binder.
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Yeah I remember ad&d 2e did that with the Monstrous manual binder. Can't say I or anyone from back then cared for that drop in "feature".
 
Neon said:
Yeah I remember ad&d 2e did that with the Monstrous manual binder. Can't say I or anyone from back then cared for that drop in "feature".
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Yup, I know but I don't think TSR really made their supplements to take advantage of the format. With Harn, they actually number the pages according to where they're meant to be inserted.
 
TristramEvans said:
Harn is systemless, but Harnmaster is crunchy as fuck, yeah
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There are three main branches of the system. 1e was pretty crunchy, not insanely so. 2e/3e I think should be grouped together, and they simplified some stuff. Harnmaster Gold I think goes back to 1e and then some.

There is a weird rift in the Harn publishing universe between Columbia Games, which sells 3e, and Kelestia, which sells HMG. The latter was run by N. Robin Crossby, and the two sides were in dispute for a while over rights, yet it doesn’t seem like they created any type of conflict in the setting canon. And now that Crossby is passed on, I don’t know what’s happened. The fans don’t seem to want to take sides.
 
Yeah, Harn first, then many of these already mentioned. I'd also cheat and include CoC Mythos Earth because, well, you don't get more detail than Earth, and CoC Mythos Earth is just "Earth plus Ancient Aliens (as postulated by ancient astronaut theorists :wink: )."
 
opaopajr said:
Yeah, Harn first, then many of these already mentioned. I'd also cheat and include CoC Mythos Earth because, well, you don't get more detail than Earth, and CoC Mythos Earth is just "Earth plus Ancient Aliens (as postulated by ancient astronaut theorists :wink: )."
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:wink:When Chaosium comes out with the liechtenstein supplement I will concede the point to them.
 
robertsconley said:
Harn by far. Between Columbia Games and Kelestia nothing else compares.
The Third Imperium, Glorantha, Tekumel, and Ars Magica approach it in scope and level of detail.
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... from above.
 
Neon said:
So all this RuneQuest news and discussions had me thinking about which are the most detailed non-D&D rpg settings? Glorantha certainly has to be up there. Harn I'm guessing? What are the mega settings out there? Does not have to be limited to fantasy. I know nothing about WoD Vampire, but there seems to be going alot there setting-wise.
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To expand on ffilz's point, very much depends on what type of "detail" you're looking for. (Or are scoring, if this is just a forum discussion for the sake of having a forum discussion -- which is fair enough, need to keep ourselves out the way of the traffic...) Geography? Culture? Storylines? Sheer throwweight of material that you can dismay you SO by obsessively hoarding? All valid metrics! ... in their own way.

And arguably we should eliminate from consideration all settings that don't include the RW (ideally, the entire known universe!) as a "location" in it...
 
Arminius said:
The latter was run by N. Robin Crossby, and the two sides were in dispute for a while over rights, yet it doesn’t seem like they created any type of conflict in the setting canon.
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See, you can immediately get the distinction from Glorantha right there. An entire fandom, no continuity disputes.

With Glorantha? The schisms run though the heart and soul of every fan...
 
Arminius said:
There are three main branches of the system. 1e was pretty crunchy, not insanely so. 2e/3e I think should be grouped together, and they simplified some stuff. Harnmaster Gold I think goes back to 1e and then some.

There is a weird rift in the Harn publishing universe between Columbia Games, which sells 3e, and Kelestia, which sells HMG. The latter was run by N. Robin Crossby, and the two sides were in dispute for a while over rights, yet it doesn’t seem like they created any type of conflict in the setting canon. And now that Crossby is passed on, I don’t know what’s happened. The fans don’t seem to want to take sides.
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And as much as anything else, neither Columbia nor Kelestia have demonstrated any interest in forcing the fanbase to do so. Which is just as well, because one factor in Harnworld's amazing density is the degree to which both companies are positively encouraging towards fans playing in their sandbox. Lythia.com is just the most prominent exemplar of that. For my own part, I've ganked a fair bit of the material, and eagerly concur that in terms of setting detail, Harn is in first place, and no one's in second.
 
Silverlion said:
Is the Harn system complex these days?
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No worse than it was before. It is a little complex in the character generation section. (Advancement takes getting used to, but easy enough). If you can play Basic Roleplaying derivatives, you can easily play Harn Master at the table. The additional supplements actually make magic and religious types very playable (vs the core rules).

And to deal with the above, once you get into the supplements for locations, the "world is your oyster", as there are a lot of play options from faux Roman, medieval in a variety of faux European sets, and some other historical areas of different areas.
 
Peter Von Danzig said:
Harn is really well done but it's basically limited to roughly 10th-11th Century Feudal Britain and maybe a bit of France.
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I couldn't say how well they hit the mark, but the intended european-equivalent time frame is ~1200
 
One thing worth mentioning about Hârn is that it was originally not tied to Hârnmaster, and I doubt that it is strongly tied to this day—meaning that for many of the modules, you will not be paying for very much system-level details. (I don’t know if it ever gave guidance on using D&D etc.)

The one area where I think you might need some system knowledge is in the Shek-Pvar (the wizards, who are divided into distinct schools). Do the generic world books explain them well enough that you could write them up in D&D terms?
 
Peter Von Danzig said:
Harn is really well done but it's basically limited to roughly 10th-11th Century Feudal Britain and maybe a bit of France.
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True. The published Harn material is about a foot wide and ten miles deep. Really the polar opposite of the Third Imperium, which details a setting of thousands of worlds, but most of them are described using just a single string of hexadecimal numbers.

I'd say Glorantha is probably the winner though when it comes to depth of detail on mythology and religion, while Tékumel and Middle-earth are serious contenders for the depth of detail on linguistics prize.
 
Moonglum said:
I couldn't say how well they hit the mark, but the intended european-equivalent time frame is ~1200
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So, according to the book I just bought:

While Hârn contains unique cultures and creatures, its closest historical equivalent is 9th to 14th century Britain.
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Triumvir said:
So, according to the book I just bought:
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While Hârn contains unique cultures and creatures, its closest historical equivalent is 9th to 14th century Britain.

Okay. I think people are missing it.

Hârn is an island off the western coast of the region of Venârivè (the northwestern part of the continent of Lýthia) on the planet Kèthîra, but as Hârn has traditionally been the focus of the setting, many people refer to the world as Hârn or HârnWorld. A Significant chunk of the "Harn" material is for the other parts of Kethira (mostly Lythia), which are not 9-14th C Britain.
 
Arminius said:
The one area where I think you might need some system knowledge is in the Shek-Pvar (the wizards, who are divided into distinct schools). Do the generic world books explain them well enough that you could write them up in D&D terms?
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The magic system was independent of any system... intentionally. The generic world book does not explain them well enough to do a proper job of that. (You could just plot D&D magic in there.). If you want "authentic feeling" Shek-Pvar, you need the supplement. It will give you the idea of the low magic for spell casting in Harn/ Lýthia/ Kèthîra. To be honest, you would be better served with BRP/ using spirit magic as a base or doing the work to adapt Sorcery. (I like Harn Master and it would work to give you a feel for it, but the Shek-Pvar gives you a much better working base.)

The same with the religious figures as well. You could plot D&D clerics (with the Harnworld gods). However, you really might want to get the religion supplement. Then you could easily modify "clerics" to fit properly.
 
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Also, if you dig about, Tekumel has a great deal of information on the world. It is however spread among first three core books (from different publishers with different goals) and many supplements. The entire Adventures on Tekumel Adventure series and the Novels (Man of Gold Specifically are actually easier to digest than the core books. (Bethorm provides everything you need for OSR styled play, rather than setting material.) The adventures include a lot of setting material, much of it is important and implied in other books. I would put Tekumel in 2nd place for details for the world. Glorantha would be 3rd, however.. Glorantha material is much more accessible)

We have also not discussed any of the urban fantasy games and super games (M&M's core world is highly detailed.). There are some detailed Sci-Fi out there (some powered by GURPS).
 
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As far as quantity (and not depth) is concerned, the Palladium Fantasy world has become quite substantial over the years (around 18 books?).

Another Dream Pod 9 game with a very detailed setting was the excellent Tribe 8. A fascinating post-apocalyptic game.

Eclipse Phase is also a strong contender for the "you won't ever be able to use all that material in your campaign" title.

You also have the games that rely on IPs that have huge setting attached to them (W40K, Star Wars, Star Trek...) but most of the information lies outside rpg books (other games, novels, movies, you name it), so I'm not sure if the OP finds them relevant.
 
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MoonHunter said:
While Hârn contains unique cultures and creatures, its closest historical equivalent is 9th to 14th century Britain.

Okay. I think people are missing it.

Hârn is an island off the western coast of the region of Venârivè (the northwestern part of the continent of Lýthia) on the planet Kèthîra, but as Hârn has traditionally been the focus of the setting, many people refer to the world as Hârn or HârnWorld. A Significant chunk of the "Harn" material is for the other parts of Kethira (mostly Lythia), which are not 9-14th C Britain.
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My point is that all the cultures, deep as it all is, boil down basically to what I would describe as slight variations on 10th - 11th Century England. Which is fine, but there is a lot more going on that you can just as easily borrow from in other parts of Europe and the world at that time. 11th (or 12th) Century England is a mostly feudal, mostly rural world with strong centralized political control and relatively simple culture and technology. If you looked at say, Lombardy or Tuscany, Lange-D'Oc or the Baltic, Andalusia or Sicily, you would find a lot more going on, a lot more you could play with.

And you could probably adapt that from historical sources to something like HARN system.

I have heard that Mythras also has some pretty well done setting books.
 
Alai said:
To expand on ffilz's point, very much depends on what type of "detail" you're looking for. (Or are scoring, if this is just a forum discussion for the sake of having a forum discussion -- which is fair enough, need to keep ourselves out the way of the traffic...) Geography? Culture? Storylines? Sheer throwweight of material that you can dismay you SO by obsessively hoarding? All valid metrics! ... in their own way.

And arguably we should eliminate from consideration all settings that don't include the RW (ideally, the entire known universe!) as a "location" in it...
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Exactly. Some of these games were just used as excuses for writing exposition dumps in lieu of actually writing games or novels. These "settings" are 99% irrelevant trivia that will never come up in actual play. Much like lore in most fantasy books written by inexperienced writers who think exposition dumps substitute for basics like storytelling and characterization. It's lot more obnoxious in ttrpgs because these are game books supposed to help gamers play games.

One of the few exceptions I've found was Nephilim, but only because the past life mechanic meant that the PCs could be personally involved in various historical events. At least in the US version adapted by Chaosium, which went out of its way to include over 60 plot hooks in the Major Arcana book they released just before cancelling the line (and many of these plot hooks were wild: including things like a Jurassic Park pastiche, serial murders committed by Aztec deities, or ending up in an alternate universe after a session of astral projection). The original French version suffered from the irrelevant trivia problem in spades, making most of their supposedly playable factions flimsy and unplayable in practice.

World of Darkness is pretty much the poster child for the "irrelevant trivia written by writers who clearly wanted to write novels and comics instead" problem. All of the published adventures consisted of the PCs watching NPCs solve various metaplot developments that are completely irrelevant to the PCs themselves. Not surprisingly, most fans just bought the books to read the lore dumps rather than actually play the game. The game design itself is... well, it clearly wasn't designed to be played.

After years and years of being subjected to irrelevant lore bloat in pretty much every genre, I'm just completely sick of lore and my eyes gloss over whenever a writer expects me to read their latest irrelevant exposition dump. It doesn't substitute for storytelling, characterization, or game design. I've seen forum discussions go in enough circles to be largely uninterested even from that angle.

What interests me as a player and GM is "how can I use this in an adventure?" If you can't answer that question, then what you're writing isn't viable gaming material. When I write "lore", I think of it in terms of "what do these different groups believe and how does that affect their interactions?" I've gotten a ton of mileage by going Rashomon-style for absolutely everything.
 
World of Darkness has >100 books detailing just Vampire: the Masquerade 2e/revised. That probably easily takes he cake, yes? Beating out even D&D settings.

Cross media licensed stuff like Star Wars and Middle Earth are definitely up there too, Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.

The real, historical earth.
 
KrakaJak said:
The real, historical earth.
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Yeah, no setting ever beats that. I mean, a single big library's historical section puts all of our shelfies to shame...


OK, remembering some shelfies, maybe not all. But those weren't all for one system:grin:!
 
Peter Von Danzig said:
Are the Kelestia settings more historical, or fantasy, or somewhere between?
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Exactly the same tone and tenor as Columbia Games Harn stuff. Just with different lands and different cultures. They focus on Lythia the continent that Harn is part of.


venarive_poetic_map.jpg
 
That's why I prefer a historical setting, or once removed shall we say (ala Tolkein or Game of Thrones or Witcher or what have you). I don't really want to learn to speak "Dothracki" or "Klingon" and truly good made up settings are pretty rare (some exceptions ala Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, Robert E Howard or Michael Moorcock) but those people all knew their history and mythology and borrowed liberally from it in a well informed manner, thus retaining some of those primal connections.

To me the thing about a historical or strongly 'near historical' setting vs invented pseudo-fantasy "Lore" is that it reaches out to you in a much more meaningful way. It's not just pointless, rambling fluff, but all kinds of things that happened tie directly to things that are happening, at every level of detail from the macro to the micro, and from cultural, social, martial, and technological, esoteric (or 'natural philosophy') angles. Thus gradually you'll tend to learn the connections, and you'll 'feel' them long before that. So the whole thing resonates better.

I think this is a big part of the success of Lovecraft and related / overlapping Weird fiction genres. They really did their homework before they started churning out yarns so they can echo this feeling. When you read those excerpts from Abdul Alhazred it's quite similar both in style and the somewhat unsettling tone to real Arab grimoires which our ancestors were reading in medical school in Bologna in the 15th Century...
 
Speaking of very detailed settings that borrow effectively from historical and mythological sources, I am an admirer of the Spanish RPG Aquelarre though I haven't actually played it yet. They have an English translation and I bought a copy but I haven't read it yet, the book is huge. I will though because I LOVE their art.

en.wikipedia.org

Aquelarre (role-playing game) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

AQ1.jpg


image-asset.jpeg


AQ2.jpg
 
KrakaJak said:
World of Darkness has >100 books detailing just Vampire: the Masquerade 2e/revised. That probably easily takes he cake, yes? Beating out even D&D settings.
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The setting was mostly solidified in first edition and since then has only received slight revisions and endless rehashes. The actual volume of non-repeated lore is very small. You might as well read a wiki for all the difference it makes.

Repeating the same material in reeditions falsely inflates these settings. That's why I'm glad for wikis that consolidate all the non-repeated material.
 
AppleJax said:
Exactly. Some of these games were just used as excuses for writing exposition dumps in lieu of actually writing games or novels. These "settings" are 99% irrelevant trivia that will never come up in actual play. Much like lore in most fantasy books written by inexperienced writers who think exposition dumps substitute for basics like storytelling and characterization. It's lot more obnoxious in ttrpgs because these are game books supposed to help gamers play games.

One of the few exceptions I've found was Nephilim, but only because the past life mechanic meant that the PCs could be personally involved in various historical events. At least in the US version adapted by Chaosium, which went out of its way to include over 60 plot hooks in the Major Arcana book they released just before cancelling the line (and many of these plot hooks were wild: including things like a Jurassic Park pastiche, serial murders committed by Aztec deities, or ending up in an alternate universe after a session of astral projection). The original French version suffered from the irrelevant trivia problem in spades, making most of their supposedly playable factions flimsy and unplayable in practice.

World of Darkness is pretty much the poster child for the "irrelevant trivia written by writers who clearly wanted to write novels and comics instead" problem. All of the published adventures consisted of the PCs watching NPCs solve various metaplot developments that are completely irrelevant to the PCs themselves. Not surprisingly, most fans just bought the books to read the lore dumps rather than actually play the game. The game design itself is... well, it clearly wasn't designed to be played.

After years and years of being subjected to irrelevant lore bloat in pretty much every genre, I'm just completely sick of lore and my eyes gloss over whenever a writer expects me to read their latest irrelevant exposition dump. It doesn't substitute for storytelling, characterization, or game design. I've seen forum discussions go in enough circles to be largely uninterested even from that angle.

What interests me as a player and GM is "how can I use this in an adventure?" If you can't answer that question, then what you're writing isn't viable gaming material. When I write "lore", I think of it in terms of "what do these different groups believe and how does that affect their interactions?" I've gotten a ton of mileage by going Rashomon-style for absolutely everything.
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But tell us how you really feel about it.
 
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