nuTSR/Wonderfilled? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Endless Flight said:
You don’t announce stuff until after the legalities have been figured out. This is like 101 stuff.
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So, what you could do is announce you're making Star Frontiers and get fans excited, get legal, make a stink and drop it, and then publish a new sf game with the rules and races from Star Frontiers thinly veiled. The idea would be to reach the fans and get sympathy while justifying making changes to the rules for legal reasons. I don't know, it could work but it's a fine balance between announcing, pulling out before it goes to the lawyers, and putting out an edition that's close enough but not legally actionable. Still, Elmore art.
 
Ralph Dula said:
I’m clearly out of the loop on something.
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Evil Hat announced back in 2017 or so that they were working on a Star Frontiers reboot. After almost 30 years of doing absolutely nothing with the game and allowing a bunch of Star Frontiers PDFs, fan materials, and even reprinted books via Lulu for over a decade, Wizards of the Coast then went nuclear and issued Cease & Desists on a bunch of Star Frontiers fan sites, resulting in all of the Star Frontiers PDFs and books on Lulu being culled and most of the fan material being nuked in order to protect and reassert its control over the Star Frontiers trademark.
 
I think they'd be better off finding an established OSR/Indie author and get them on board. Kevin Crawford (still the master of delivery of Kickstarters as far as I know) for example, or Blacky the Blackball (of Dark Dungeons and other games). Those people might not need TSR, but TSR could sure use someone with their drive and work rate to get them going and off the ground. Then invite (carefully) other contributors and build from there with artists and a unified look (orange spine anyone?) with the TSR guys managing projects and pulling in artists and adventure/sourcebook writers in.

As it is, this looks like a bunch of old guys hoping to resurrect the name and love from neckbeards who have disposable income by dangling their childhood/teen years back in front of them with a 'We're back!' and uh, no, you aren't really.

If Giantlands is crap it might turn out to be Cyborg Commando 2 and drag 'nuTSR' down with it. Also can't see WOTC sitting back and letting someone go to print with Star Frontiers either. More like waiting for it to print then the lawyers are...

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I don't want to be doom and gloom (TSR started me off way back when) but Giantlands doesn't appeal to me and I can't see the Star Frontiers thing happening either... :quiet: The business model will be via Kickstarter and delays will kill the whole thing and trash the TSR name/logo thing.

Best of luck to them though. In a year or two we'll be able to search back and see if we called it right.
 
Jenx said:
I don't want to be doom and gloom (TSR started me off way back when) but Giantlands doesn't appeal to me and I can't see the Star Frontiers thing happening either... :quiet: The business model will be via Kickstarter and delays will kill the whole thing and trash the TSR name/logo thing.
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Oh yeah, if the new TSR starts a Kickstarter campaign for the new Star Frontiers, I will chip in $1 just so I have a front row seat on the impending train wreck.
 
I think I see what TSR is trying to do. I did a search on the US trademark office website and they do own the trademark for Star Frontiers. So did Evil Hat. The problem is Wizards of the Coast sells Star Frontiers materials and they own the copyrights on those materials. It’s not just as easy as TSR saying “we own the trademark, now give us the rights!” I’m no lawyer but it seems like they are trying the same tactics. Also, they need product out there to enforce the trademark. This looks like a trademark vs copyright battle.
 
Endless Flight said:
I think I see what TSR is trying to do. I did a search on the US trademark office website and they do own the trademark for Star Frontiers. So did Evil Hat. The problem is Wizards of the Coast sells Star Frontiers materials and they own the copyrights on those materials. It’s not just as easy as TSR saying “we own the trademark, now give us the rights!” I’m no lawyer but it seems like they are trying the same tactics. Also, they need product out there to enforce the trademark. This looks like a trademark vs copyright battle.
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Now if only we could figure out who had more money......
 
I suppose that in theory TSR could own the Star Frontiers name and release an RPG called Star Frontiers but their game can’t look anything like the Wizards game.

They might be snatching up these trademarks to try and force Wizards to pull them off DTRPG.
 
Jenx said:
I think they'd be better off finding an established OSR/Indie author and get them on board.

As it is, this looks like a bunch of old guys hoping to resurrect the name and love from neckbeards who have disposable income by dangling their childhood/teen years back in front of them with a 'We're back!' and uh, no, you aren't really.
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Agree. The money spent on the TSR name would be better spent on recruiting talent that brings some authenticity to the project. The actual TSR name and logo is far less important than having the street cred and authorial chops to back it up, if that makes sense.

Jeffrey Talanian would have been one of my picks for bringing back some of the the TSR magic. He may not have the name recognition of Kevin Crawford nor did he work at TSR but he worked closely with Gary during his final years and writes better High Gygaxian than the Master himself. His published setting, Hyperborea, is a love letter to AD&D. The guy has a proven track record of completing quality projects on time and maintains good relations with his customers.
 
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Maybe they should have just come up with a new name/logo that incorporated the original, like OTSRR, (Old TSR Renaissance or Old TSR Revival). Then they could put out Starfront with flying marsupials called Zaryeareans, giant praying mantis like critters called Kruvs and bouncing, shape changing aliens called Salidrites. They're sure to make a fortune!

Kidding aside, I do hope they can survive the headbutting that may ensue with Hasbro and Wizars. While I'm not too keen on their current offering of Giantlands, I hope they are able to make a go of this venture and start making some good stuff.
 
I'm not 'up' on kickstarters these days. Aside from the aforementioned Mr Crawford (who delivers every time, on or before schedule and has a justly deserved shining reputation of 'how to do it right' as opposed to the Far West type situation etc) I'm extremely cautious about backing anything these days. I'm probably 80/20 for having backed stuff and actually got it with the rest being handing over money for excuses, delays and silence.

From the sounds of it EGG jr has form for taking money and not delivering? Is that right?

There are two ways I view kickstarters.

1) As a preorder. You are confident in the author and their past record to know you'll get the thing at some point, just have to be patient (because real life happens sometimes) and

2) This is money I don't mind gambling because I'd have bought a cheeseburger and fries (or substitute other unhealthy thing) and I'm doing my body a favour. I might get something for my dosh but chances are it's so late I'll forget all about it and only be reminded when I look on Kickstarter again with the bitter taste in my mouth that only a Cheeseburger and Fries can remove. Or other unhealthy thing.

When I read more about the 'new' TSR and previous kickstart debacles I think I know where my money would go, waistline and arteries be damned.
 
I'm fine with Kickstarter not being a slam-dunk guarantee of success, and I understand the risks that I'm taking when I back something. However, that doesn't mean that the people that run these failed campaigns get a pass going forward either. For the sake of this nu-TSR I hope EGG Jr. is just occupying a creative or advisory role and doesn't have anything to do with management or organization.

Fool me once shame on you, yadda, yadda, yadda.
 
Nick J said:
I'm fine with Kickstarter not being a slam-dunk guarantee of success, and I understand the risks that I'm taking when I back something. However, that doesn't mean that the people that run these failed campaigns get a pass going forward either.
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Same here. I back Kickstarters with the understanding that it is not a pre-order and there is a measure of risk involved. So don't spend what you can't afford to lose and do your homework. When in doubt, just pass on backing. I pass on lots of stuff. For example, I don't back video games on KS because I am not confident in my ability to catch red flags specifically related to software development like I can with RPGs. If I see a promising indie video game developer I'd rather support through Steam Early Access or itch.io

I have to admit that I am surprised EGG Jr. is associated with the project after the Marmoreal Tomb debacle. I don't mean any disrespect when I say I don't know what he brings to the table.
 
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David Johansen said:
Like I say, use the name, cease and desist, make an sf game with another name and hope to get the fan support.
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While I can understand your line of thinking here. I'm not sure Nu TSR can think that many steps ahead. (Hey TSR prove me wrong:blah:)
 
Bunch said:
Now if only we could figure out who had more money......
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Really thats what it will boil down to. Its not about being right, justice, or what have you. Its who can afford to play this "legal" game the longest. Hmmmmm.... little game shop wanna be big shooter, or mega corp. As Bunch said.......
 
So, to leave off on the legalities of the thing.

If nuTSR brings out a new edition of Star Frontiers, will you buy or back it? How much do you want to change? What do you want kept? What's the breaking point?

As I've said, I think it would be good to put in some military vehicles, I don't know about the rights on Tanks A Lot so I think it's probably best just to add some military hardware. Some world building would be welcome as long as there's an open frontier out there to explore as a major part of the setting. More worlds, more maps, and maybe some new races and monsters. GM tools like random worlds and aliens would be nice if a bit Travelleresque. As far as the rules go they should use Galaxies In Shadow ;-) Okay, no they should stay very close to the original. I would say skills should have a single rating and the various tasks should be modifiers. I also would base all the skills on 1/2 attribute +10 per rank just like combat skills. And, I would have character's incapacitated at 1/2 Stamina or at least roll to avoid being incapacitated. It would speed up combat a lot. But that's about it. Star Frontiers is a pretty clean system and even elegant in places.
 
David Johansen said:
So, to leave off on the legalities of the thing.

If nuTSR brings out a new edition of Star Frontiers, will you buy or back it? How much do you want to change? What do you want kept? What's the breaking point?

As I've said, I think it would be good to put in some military vehicles, I don't know about the rights on Tanks A Lot so I think it's probably best just to add some military hardware. Some world building would be welcome as long as there's an open frontier out there to explore as a major part of the setting. More worlds, more maps, and maybe some new races and monsters. GM tools like random worlds and aliens would be nice if a bit Travelleresque. As far as the rules go they should use Galaxies In Shadow ;-) Okay, no they should stay very close to the original. I would say skills should have a single rating and the various tasks should be modifiers. I also would base all the skills on 1/2 attribute +10 per rank just like combat skills. And, I would have character's incapacitated at 1/2 Stamina or at least roll to avoid being incapacitated. It would speed up combat a lot. But that's about it. Star Frontiers is a pretty clean system and even elegant in places.
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Personally I would like to see it more of less like what the Starfrontiersman did, and rerelease it with better organization. Plus some bits and bobs from Dragon magazine and the like. So powered armor, and more vehicles.
 
Paging robertsconley robertsconley...

So WotC has Copyright to all the Star Frontiers material.

nuTSR has the TSR Trademark that is on the covers and inside that Star Frontiers material.

WotC started selling said material again, after letting the Trademark lapse and making no challenge to people violating the copyright, for years.

Break it all down for us, Sifu.
 
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