(OSE) Critique my homebrew outlaw class?

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Here's a rough draft of a class I intend to use in Old School Essentials. I'd like some opinions to help improve it.

Context:
- This is a replacement for the thief that incorporates elements from it and the ranger (or more specifically OSE's Warden class, non-magical ranger).
- I intend to stick to the four core classes.
- There are no elves, dwarves or halflings in this setting.
- I'll likely be giving the fighter a small selection of special abilities to choose from too, as suggested in the OSE magazine Carrion Crawler.
- I'll be using side initiative.

------------------------------------------------------------

New Class: Outlaw
Requirements: None
Prime requisite: DEX
Hit Dice: 1d6
Maximum level: 14
Armour: Leather, Chainmail, shields
Weapons: Any
Languages: Common

Outlaws survive in the shadows of society by their wits and special skills. They can be equally comfortable in urban, wilderness, or dungeon environments. Their presence in a party improves everyone's chances of evading danger, but they do tend to have unsavory reputations.

> Combat: Outlaws can use all types of weapons and can use leather armour, chainmail, and shields. Because of their need for stealth, they cannot use plate mail.

> Sneak Attack: When attacking a surprised opponent in the first round of combat, an outlaw receives a +4 bonus to hit and doubles any damage dealt.

> Outlaw Skills: At 1st level, an outlaw selects two of these special skills. They select one more at 5th and 10th level.
1. Stealth – When monsters make a surprise check against a party with the outlaw in it, they are surprised on a 4-in-10 chance. In addition, outside of a combat encounter the outlaw can attempt to hide in situations where ordinary people cannot, such as in mere shadows, light foliage, behind narrow pillars and the like.
2. Perception – When listening for distant sounds or actively searching to detect secret doors or room traps, the outlaw succeeds with a 2-in-6 chance.
3. Quickness – A party with the outlaw in it wins ties when rolling for initiative.
4. Diplomacy – If the outlaw attempts to speak with monsters, he may add +1 to the reaction roll.
5. Technical – The outlaw can pick locks, find treasure traps, and deactivate treasure traps with a 2-in-6 chance. Normal characters cannot succeed at any of those things. Each roll can only be attempted once, and a trap requires a roll to find it before a roll can be made to deactivate it. Opening locks requires thieves' tools.
6. Sticky-fingered – The outlaw can pick people's pockets, swipe small objects unnoticed, and perform other sleight of hand tricks. Normal characters cannot succeed at any of those things. The odds of success are 3-in-6 against a victim who has less HD than the outlaw and 2-in-6 if they have equal or more HD. The attempt is only noticed by the victim on a 6.
7. Path-Finding - A party with the outlaw cannot lose direction in clear or grasslands terrain. It has only a 1-in-6 chance of losing direction in barren lands, hills, mountains, and woods. It has only a 2-in-6 chance of losing direction in deserts, jungles, and swamps. In addition, A party with the outlaw succeeds at foraging with a 2-in-6 chance.
8. Tracking – The outlaw can identify and follow tracks through normal environments. Normal characters cannot succeed at this task. The base odds of doing this successfully are 3-in-6, but they can increase or decrease based on many environmental factors like the age of the trail, rain conditions, or the size of the creature being tracked. In addition, a party with the outlaw finds prey when hunting with a 5-in-6 chance.

> After Reaching 9th Level: An outlaw can establish a thief den or bandit camp, attracting 2d6 apprentices of 1st level. These criminals will serve the character with some reliability; however, should any be arrested or killed, the PC will not be able to attract apprentices to replace them. A successful outlaw might use these followers to start a Thieves' Guild.

> Outlaw Level Progression: Same as Thief.

 
Thread about naming this class: 715 views, 62 replies and still going

Thread about evaluating this class: 36 views, 0 replies, 1 thumbs-up, nearly gone from the front page :tongue:
I can't offer a good feedback, as I don't know OSE too much. But even I can attest, that the name...the name is cool as heck.
 
Good point. I'm actually experimenting with a different alignment lineup for this campaign: Mercy - Neutrality - Cruelty.
I find those much clearer, but prepare to have few Mercy-aligned PCs:grin:!
 
I might extend the reaction roll bonus for Diplomacy to cover encounters with intelligent non-monsters too (like humans for example).
 
I might extend the reaction roll bonus for Diplomacy to cover encounters with intelligent non-monsters too (like humans for example).

Oh, that's just how OSE words things. Humans you 'encounter' are treated as 'monsters' regardless of how you actually interact with them.

I find those much clearer, but prepare to have few Mercy-aligned PCs:grin:!

Actually, this campaign is for some players who share my recent qualms about violence against intelligent creatures, so they are willing to play along. Obviously mercy is also not an unconditional thing.
 
Oh, that's just how OSE words things. Humans you 'encounter' are treated as 'monsters' regardless of how you actually interact with them.
Is that true of NPCs like shopkeepers and whatnot? I can't keep the basic and advanced versions of OSE separate in my head sometimes.
 
Why the special diplomacy bonus? The old school Ranger was a monster killer, and the old school thief just wanted your stuff. Wouldn't that just be covered by CHA score?

I am uncomfortable with the liberal allowance for heavy (chain) armour, as well as no minimum ability scores?

Doesn't seem to be many drawbacks to this class? And rapid thief type advancement? Wow. Why would I want to play thief or ranger if the Outlaw exists?

I really do like how you can "pick your Kit" in terms of special abilities. To me that's the solution to class and sub-class proliferation. You pick your base class, then design a kit with the DM to make your character unique.

And basically what you have here is a heavy armour thief. Add some bells and whistles, and voila, "outlaw".
 
Thank you for your thoughts saskganesh saskganesh

Doesn't seem to be many drawbacks to this class? And rapid thief type advancement? Wow. Why would I want to play thief or ranger if the Outlaw exists?

You wouldn't, this is intended as a replacement for both those classes in a game that only uses four classes (fighter, magic-user, cleric, outlaw)

EDIT: Ooops, pressed post instead of quote. I have more to say saskganesh saskganesh, next post...
 
Diplomacy is filling in the gap that in other games might be called streetwise or something similar IMO. The class only starts with 2 skills and never gets more than 4 total so there is a downside in terms of skills compared to the thief to balance access to chain and shields. A hidden drawback here is that the class's combat ability scales like a thief and not like a fighter (which is a big deal IMO).

IDK, I don't think it outshines the thief so much as nicely compliments the thief. There's not a lot of flex in older D&D systems and there was always a lacuna, for me anyway, right between the heavy fighter and very light thief, a lacuna that's nicely filled by a hybrid like the one above.

Edit: So apparently complimenting the thief isn't a big deal. :grin:
 
Wait, did no one suggest swashbuckler as a name here? Because there are going to be some swashes buckled with this class, for sure.
 
Why the special diplomacy bonus? The old school Ranger was a monster killer, and the old school thief just wanted your stuff. Wouldn't that just be covered by CHA score?

What Fenris-77 Fenris-77 said.

I am uncomfortable with the liberal allowance for heavy (chain) armour, as well as no minimum ability scores?

I'll admit, I am torn about giving chain to a class with lower attack bonuses, but it's not that dissimilar to the cleric's situation I guess? I'll give the minimum ability score more thought too...
 
Hey in a game with no ranger or thief, this class would probably work very well. In this context, you really don't need to have stringent stat minimums, as it's a base class, for this game.

For some flexibility, let the outlaw wear chain, but then he loses his deadly sneak attack while doing so. It's a tactical trade off.

Streetwise for me, is more of a heads up, informational, thing, about staying out of trouble and knowing where things are/ where to go. I don't think it's a people skill, it's more situational: working smarter in the environment.
 
Wait, did no one suggest swashbuckler as a name here?

It's a bit more martial than I'm looking for, and I don't really associate the word "swashbucker" with lockpicking for instance.

For some flexibility, let the outlaw wear chain, but then he loses his deadly sneak attack while doing so. It's a tactical trade off.

Oh, that's a good idea.

Streetwise for me, is more of a heads up, informational, thing, about staying out of trouble and knowing where things are/ where to go. I don't think it's a people skill, it's more situational: working smarter in the environment.

Hmm, how about if... it's more about the easy lies and greasy charm of the conman?
 
I was talking about streetwise adapted to a low skill OSE environment. Knowing how to talk and who to talk to is part of that. Diplomacy might not be the best precise word for it, but that's a different issue. Something more rough and ready than the smooth talk of the diplomat I guess. I might use the phrase easy charm to describe it. More Han Solo than Obi Wan.
 
But you don’t need skills to like streetwise and diplomacy if you just make having a high CHA a prime requisite :wink:
 
But you don’t need skills to like streetwise and diplomacy if you just make having a high CHA a prime requisite :wink:
CHA makes no sense for a lot of builds here as a prime requisite. It's also (cleverly IMO) not a skill at all but works on the reaction table. I think it's a great mechanic.
 
CHA makes no sense for a lot of builds here as a prime requisite. It's also (cleverly IMO) not a skill at all but works on the reaction table. I think it's a great mechanic.
So maybe the prime requisite would change with a kind of character you choose to play.
 
So maybe the prime requisite would change with a kind of character you choose to play.
Maybe. The class still seems pretty solidly DEX based though, with only some edge exceptions. If every build seemed to have a real CHA component I'd think about giving it two PRs, but as-is I think I'd stick with just DEX, especially when the class replaces the thief rather than working alongside it.
 
I notice you overtly state that other classes can't track, disarm traps, etc. Is that from B/X or OSE? I don't recall it being so baldly stated. I would tend to give other classes a low chance to do so and just boost the Outlaw's ability to do it.
 
I notice you overtly state that other classes can't track, disarm traps, etc. Is that from B/X or OSE? I don't recall it being so baldly stated. I would tend to give other classes a low chance to do so and just boost the Outlaw's ability to do it.

You're right that OSE does not state it so plainly, but it's a very common interpretation (even OSE suggests it in its in-house magazine). Part of the appeal of running OSE is getting away from skill systems, but I think for simplicity's sake there are still some abilities that are obscure enough that niche protection is forgivable.
 
I may have misunderstood but in replacing the thief skill progression chart in OSE with a possible chosen ability with a flat range (i.e. not improvable) you are condemning the outlaw to only ever have rather mediocre stealth/pickpockets/perception - that may be unattractive to players and also none of your adventuring party will ever be reliable at any of that stuff.
 
Oh, that's just how OSE words things. Humans you 'encounter' are treated as 'monsters' regardless of how you actually interact with them.
Makes sense...though what it says about us, I don't want to speculate:gooseshades:!

Actually, this campaign is for some players who share my recent qualms about violence against intelligent creatures, so they are willing to play along. Obviously mercy is also not an unconditional thing.
Great:gooselove:!

Is that true of NPCs like shopkeepers and whatnot? I can't keep the basic and advanced versions of OSE separate in my head sometimes.
Depends, I'd say...:shade:

If you're trying to leave without paying, for sure::honkhonk:!
 
I may have misunderstood but in replacing the thief skill progression chart in OSE with a possible chosen ability with a flat range (i.e. not improvable) you are condemning the outlaw to only ever have rather mediocre stealth/pickpockets/perception - that may be unattractive to players and also none of your adventuring party will ever be reliable at any of that stuff.

I have decided to commit to the interpretation that the OSE Surprise rules ARE the game's stealth mechanic, in combination with clever player choices/descriptions.

Ask for lockpick/pickpocket and the rest, I was trying to set their odds generously for that reason. For instance, by the RAW, a 7th level thief's chances of Picking Pockets is only 55%, and a 5th level thief's Open Locks is only 35%. Given how many other rolls in the game never normally improve anyway (Like finding hidden doors), this doesn't seem to far off base.
 
I think you could do some interesting things mechanically by focusing on the surprise mechanic. That's a slick idea.
 
Here's a rough draft of a class I intend to use in Old School Essentials. I'd like some opinions to help improve it.

Context:
- This is a replacement for the thief that incorporates elements from it and the ranger (or more specifically OSE's Warden class, non-magical ranger).
- I intend to stick to the four core classes.
- There are no elves, dwarves or halflings in this setting.
- I'll likely be giving the fighter a small selection of special abilities to choose from too, as suggested in the OSE magazine Carrion Crawler.
- I'll be using side initiative.

------------------------------------------------------------

New Class: Outlaw
Requirements: None
Prime requisite: DEX
Hit Dice: 1d6
Maximum level: 14
Armour: Leather, Chainmail, shields
Weapons: Any
Languages: Common

Outlaws survive in the shadows of society by their wits and special skills. They can be equally comfortable in urban, wilderness, or dungeon environments. Their presence in a party improves everyone's chances of evading danger, but they do tend to have unsavory reputations.

> Combat: Outlaws can use all types of weapons and can use leather armour, chainmail, and shields. Because of their need for stealth, they cannot use plate mail.

> Sneak Attack: When attacking a surprised opponent in the first round of combat, an outlaw receives a +4 bonus to hit and doubles any damage dealt.

> Outlaw Skills: At 1st level, an outlaw selects two of these special skills. They select one more at 5th and 10th level.
1. Stealth – When monsters make a surprise check against a party with the outlaw in it, they are surprised on a 4-in-10 chance. In addition, outside of a combat encounter the outlaw can attempt to hide in situations where ordinary people cannot, such as in mere shadows, light foliage, behind narrow pillars and the like.
2. Perception – When listening for distant sounds or actively searching to detect secret doors or room traps, the outlaw succeeds with a 2-in-6 chance.
3. Quickness – A party with the outlaw in it wins ties when rolling for initiative.
4. Diplomacy – If the outlaw attempts to speak with monsters, he may add +1 to the reaction roll.
5. Technical – The outlaw can pick locks, find treasure traps, and deactivate treasure traps with a 2-in-6 chance. Normal characters cannot succeed at any of those things. Each roll can only be attempted once, and a trap requires a roll to find it before a roll can be made to deactivate it. Opening locks requires thieves' tools.
6. Sticky-fingered – The outlaw can pick people's pockets, swipe small objects unnoticed, and perform other sleight of hand tricks. Normal characters cannot succeed at any of those things. The odds of success are 3-in-6 against a victim who has less HD than the outlaw and 2-in-6 if they have equal or more HD. The attempt is only noticed by the victim on a 6.
7. Path-Finding - A party with the outlaw cannot lose direction in clear or grasslands terrain. It has only a 1-in-6 chance of losing direction in barren lands, hills, mountains, and woods. It has only a 2-in-6 chance of losing direction in deserts, jungles, and swamps. In addition, A party with the outlaw succeeds at foraging with a 2-in-6 chance.
8. Tracking – The outlaw can identify and follow tracks through normal environments. Normal characters cannot succeed at this task. The base odds of doing this successfully are 3-in-6, but they can increase or decrease based on many environmental factors like the age of the trail, rain conditions, or the size of the creature being tracked. In addition, a party with the outlaw finds prey when hunting with a 5-in-6 chance.

> After Reaching 9th Level: An outlaw can establish a thief den or bandit camp, attracting 2d6 apprentices of 1st level. These criminals will serve the character with some reliability; however, should any be arrested or killed, the PC will not be able to attract apprentices to replace them. A successful outlaw might use these followers to start a Thieves' Guild.

> Outlaw Level Progression: Same as Thief.

I like it.
I’ve always had it in my mind that PCs in OSR/ TSR era D&D were misfits, weirdos, and outsiders. People who weren’t content to earn one gold a day as a farmer, blacksmith, or butcher. An outlaw/highwayman would easily fit into that role.
It’s a nice in-between of the old-school thief, and the LotFP/WWN skill monkey classes.
 
I like it.
I’ve always had it in my mind that PCs in OSR/ TSR era D&D were misfits, weirdos, and outsiders. People who weren’t content to earn one gold a day as a farmer, blacksmith, or butcher. An outlaw/highwayman would easily fit into that role.
It’s a nice in-between of the old-school thief, and the LotFP/WWN skill monkey classes.
"Send me your misfits, your outsiders and rogue sons, your weirdoes and those that never seem to get along with anyone..."
"We can't send them to just die!"
"Who speaks about dying! I'd give them a chance to earn riches as adventurers!"
"Oh, that's totally different!"

(Of course, there's no possible drawbacks whatsoever to having the aforementioned misfits and outsiders possibly rising to become part of the elite, who's ever heard of evil adventurers?)
 
Of course, there's no possible drawbacks whatsoever to having the aforementioned misfits and outsiders possibly rising to become part of the elite

One could argue that's how most of the real world's elites got started.
 
...as adventurers, you mean:shock:? Because I doubt that you'd call them "misfits":thumbsup:.

To their faces? Probably not, but I kind of think it fits for roving sociopaths looking for bloody thrills and plunder while nominally serving the military interests of some distant lord.
 
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