PDF and print combos, why?

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sharps54

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What the heck, let’s start some controversy as y’all educate me :hehe:

In a recent thread Acmegamer Acmegamer was discussing Steve Jackson Games and said, “Plus they have shown to be unfriendly to the whole pdf/print concept anymore. Or I should say they grew more and more hostile to it. So like Monte Cook Games, you end up having to frequently pay for both pdf and print.”

Now I like to get a free or low cost PDF alone with a print book as much as the next consumer, I have enough driven to specific stores that support the Bits and Mortar program. That said…

Why do we expect a for profit company to give us a free PDF when we buy a physical one? We don’t expect a free digital novel (kindle) when we buy a physical book. We don’t expect a free audio book when we buy a physical, or electronic, book. We don’t expect a discounted mass paperback along with the hard cover when we buy a novel.

What makes the pdf, which we often complain about if it isn’t hyperlinked (which causes extra work over the physical book), different? Is it just because we want it? Why shouldn’t a company expect to sell both formats when they aren’t expected to give any other format away for free?
 
BTW I’m not attacking Acmegamer Acmegamer here, as I mentioned I take advantage of the combos too, I’m just curious as a customer base why we expect this specific format to be free to us. I use “us” loosely so if the show fits wear it, this is more a market psychology question, like why do people think it’s ok to pirate digital media, than an attack on anyone.
 
Obviously they are free to do business as they want just as we are free to not purchase their books if they don't throw in a free PDF. It's like any other industry, some companies give away free stuff to entice more purchases. Some don't. I know which company store I as a consumer am more likely to shop.
 
Obviously they are free to do business as they want just as we are free to not purchase their books if they don't throw in a free PDF. It's like any other industry, some companies give away free stuff to entice more purchases. Some don't. I know which company store I as a consumer am more likely to shop.
Seconded:thumbsup:.


And S sharps54 there's now no question that you're going to feature in my Cyberpunk campaign when I get around to running one (possibly in a couple years)...do you want to send me a name and physical description for the NPC:grin:?
 
I might be off base and out of touch, wouldn’t be the first or last time
 
I’m not demonizing anyone, I’m asking why do we expect free PDFs but we don’t expect free electronic copies of the latest fantasy hard cover novel?
And you already got two replies, which amounted to "I don't like purchasing the same book twice in different formats":thumbsup:!

Now do I get that description, or do you prefer me to make them up:tongue:?

I might be off base and out of touch, wouldn’t be the first or last time
Sorry to say, but it sure looks like it from where I'm at:shade:!
 
I have no idea if it is correct (and suspect it may not be quite this simple) but it feels as though the company which has already produced and sold the printed product has comparatively little extra work to do in order to make available a pdf.

A consumer might therefore expect that a good business practice would be a throw in the pdf as extra, thereby giving the customer a significant extra product at limit cost to the seller.

It is worth noting that a pdf might be more useful to a gamer than a e-copy to a hardback reader of novels.

I expect someone with more actual knowledge can debunk my proposed assumptions but it may be that in terms of customer thought process it is realistic
 
And you already got two replies, which amounted to "I don't like purchasing the same book twice in different formats":thumbsup:!

Now do I get that description, or do you prefer me to make them up:tongue:?


Sorry to say, but it sure looks like it from where I'm at:shade:!
I feel your mental image of me is probably much more glamorous than the real thing, go for it :wink:
 
I feel your mental image of me is probably much more glamorous than the real thing, go for it :wink:
I didn't say you need to stick to the real image... but let's say I'm casting Denzel Washington for your role (which he probably would refuse if it was an actual movie:grin:)!
 
Probably closer to Gary Oldman’s portrayal of Jackson Lamb in Slow Horses
 
Just speaking for myself, a lot of my customers seem to prefer PDF only and will not buy the print version of my modules. So if I'm only selling print with free PDFs, then there's a certain number of buyers who aren't going to pick up my product because they don't want print.

But now this thread has me thinking that maybe I should just sell print only, with a complementary PDF. Maybe it would in fact increase print sales?
 
Because once you have laid out the book making a basic pdf of it is trivial. I'd be less bothered about a screen optimized and hyperlinked doc, but the pdf is basically a click away if it wasn't already made.

Yes but does a PDF have value in and of itself? If some people only want the PDF, then I say it probably does.
 
Because once you have laid out the book making a basic pdf of it is trivial. I'd be less bothered about a screen optimized and hyperlinked doc, but the pdf is basically a click away if it wasn't already made.
So why don’t we expect miniature companies to provide the printing files for the minis we buy? Surely they are only a click away…
 
At this point, I think the expectation comes from the number of places offering free PDF with print (or even nicer, like Chaosium that sells PDF for 50% of print, gives free PDF with print, and gives coupon for 50% off print with PDF). But in the 2000s, free PDF with print was much less common, and obviously in the early years PDF didn't even exist.

But do note that folks have pointed out that PDF isn't necessarily "trivial" on top of print. There are different choices to make. And some companies actually make lots of effort with PDF to ease screen use. Also, with the increased expectation of bookmarks and clickable links in a PDF, that's extra work too.

These days I'm almost exclusively a PDF purchaser, so whether there is a combo deal or not is not much impact to me, though the existence of such almost always means the PDF alone IS cheaper than print (some places charge as much or almost as much for PDF as print...).
 
Yes but does a PDF have value in and of itself? If some people only want the PDF, then I say it probably does.
I buy almost exclusively PDFs. Shipping is shenanigans to where I live and my house simply doesn't have room for all the gaming books I buy if I bought them all in dead tree. So yeah, value to me anyway.
 
I don't necessarily expect the PDF to come free with the purchase of a hard copy, but I do kinda want it to be discounted vs. the price of PDF alone.
It also puts me off when the PDF, on it's own, costs as much as the printed book.

Generally, if I'm actually intending to play the game (or really like the idea of playing it) I want the hardcopy book AND a PDF... if it's just an adventure, or something I'm merely curious about, I will go for the PDF alone.
 
Just speaking for myself, a lot of my customers seem to prefer PDF only and will not buy the print version of my modules. So if I'm only selling print with free PDFs, then there's a certain number of buyers who aren't going to pick up my product because they don't want print.

But now this thread has me thinking that maybe I should just sell print only, with a complementary PDF. Maybe it would in fact increase print sales?
Not really. I used to be a hardcore PDF-only guy...and Fates Worse Than Death was a game that did exactly that. On the publisher's forums you can find a thread started by me - which goes something like it: "I don't want to bother with the shipment, I'm not going to pirate it, but I want to run your game. Can I purchase it legally, or do I need to run another game?"

The author was more than accommodating BTW - as he put it, "of course I prefer you to run my game" - so I did run it for a couple of years, and even playtested the third supplement:thumbsup:.

But other people that I know wouldn't start such a thread, they'd just pass on your game. So no, just do what Drivethru does already: let people buy your game in PDF, print-only, or print+PDF combo, setting the price of the latter two as the same number...:shade:
Probably closer to Gary Oldman’s portrayal of Jackson Lamb in Slow Horses
OK, Jackson Lamb it is...:grin:
 
But other people that I know wouldn't start such a thread, they'd just pass on your game. So no, just do what Drivethru does already: let people buy your game in PDF, print-only, or print+PDF combo, setting the price of the latter two as the same number...:shade:

I can see giving away the PDF for someone who buys the print. But I guess I never considered it before because, at least for what I'm doing (selling what are essentially collector's item modules) customers who are buying print generally aren't interested in PDFs and so aren't going to be enticed into buying print with a free digital version. And if I'm giving away such a digital version, am I not devaluing it for those who prefer to only buy PDF?
 
Outside of the WOTC/5E side of the industry...

I think part of it is the sheer amount of choice people have with rpgs these days versus the relatively small size of the industry. Outside of WOTC, most companies are fighting for a small share of an already small market. Those that offer more value for the purchase are going to tend to capture more customers than their competitors, all other things being (more or less) equal. Some recognize this and capitalize on it. Others follow suit, to keep up. Then that particular aspect of business becomes an expected norm. You see this in businesses of all sorts.

From the customer point of view, the company that offers the best bargain (or the most bang for the buck) is going to be more attractive, as long as the products it is offering are comparable to those of the competitor. When you really get down to the basics of rpgs, there isn't a whole lot of big variation in the mechanics, outside of a few major styles. Most of the mechanical differences between games in the same general category (ex. d100, OSR, PbtA, etc.) can be changed with a few homebrew tweaks, and it really isn't that hard to homebrew or adapt a setting. GMs are still the major purchasers of most game products, and most experienced GMs can homebrew things. They may like buying new books, for various reasons, but that usually isn't a critical part of running a game. There is also a LOT of free stuff available, even for many obscure game systems.

So, in the end, you have a limited number of customers in a niche hobby who are buying things from small companies with very low profit margins (outside of WotC). That gives the customers the ability to demand more and influence things more readily with their wallets, putting a lot more pressure on small companies to provide value-added incentives. Given that, including the PDF with the purchase of a print copy has come to be an expected thing.

You can't really compare all of this to the larger world of book publishing. The big publishers can take advantage of economies of scale and large distribution networks, putting them in the position of being able to sell books with equivalent amounts of illustrations or photos for a lot cheaper than small rpg companies can manage. It is hard to argue with most customers that you should pay $60-75 for a print copy of an rpg when they can buy a really beautiful full-color hardcover coffee table book for a lot less. The reasons for the higher cost of that game versus the coffee table book are easy to explain, but that doesn't mean that people are going to still choose to spend the money, particularly when there are cheaper alternatives, or alternatives that feel like a better deal to them.
 
I can see giving away the PDF for someone who buys the print. But I guess I never considered it before because, at least for what I'm doing (selling what are essentially collector's item modules) customers who are buying print generally aren't interested in PDFs and so aren't going to be enticed into buying print with a free digital version. And if I'm giving away such a digital version, am I not devaluing it for those who prefer to only buy PDF?
In the case of people who really want print sometimes the lure of early access to PDFs before print is ready can be a carrot, but that's a pretty niche thing to new material and Kickstarter.
 
I can see giving away the PDF for someone who buys the print. But I guess I never considered it before because, at least for what I'm doing (selling what are essentially collector's item modules) customers who are buying print generally aren't interested in PDFs and so aren't going to be enticed into buying print with a free digital version.
You do you, man, you know your customers best. I'm just sharing my experience as a (former) PDF-only guy. OK, I'm now PDF-mostly...:grin:

Obviously I'm not one of your customers, if they're only after the print. I'm just saying what would look best to someone like me:thumbsup:!

In the case of people who really want print sometimes the lure of early access to PDFs before print is ready can be a carrot, but that's a pretty niche thing to new material and Kickstarter.
Well, you can accomplish it if you give them a coupon for 20% off the print book with the PDF, and price the PDF accordingly...:shade:

Again, not sure it would work for him, just pointing out that it can work outside of KS campaigns.
 
I value printed books.
I don't value PDFs.

It's that simple.

The creativity behind them is valuable.
But the medium is literally next to nothing. Completely non-tactile. A song on the radio or a show on TV I turn off before ads come on.

Someone already mentioned: Bookmarks and hyperlinks aside, a PDF is just a click away if you're print ready.

For me, the purpose of a PDF is threefold: evaluating a book for purchase, rapid online reference through keyword searches (most game indexes and org schemes are sub-par) and preserving the value of my print copy. I might read my print copy once or twice, but it's the PDF that proxies all the wear and tear.

I support creativity. There's the occasional PDF I purchase for reference that I don't buy print for, but that's getting rarer unless it's a charity bundle.
 
For me, the purpose of a PDF is threefold: evaluating a book for purchase, rapid online reference through keyword searches (most game indexes and org schemes are sub-par) and preserving the value of my print copy. I might read my print copy once or twice, but it's the PDF that proxies all the wear and tear.

So why don't you value PDFs then? Again I'm trying to understand the "It's a click away, just give it to me" side, but when you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who's trying to make whatever return they possibly can in a very niche market, why assume you are entitled to something for free?
 
So why don't you value PDFs then? Again I'm trying to understand the "It's a click away, just give it to me" side, but when you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who's trying to make whatever return they possibly can in a very niche market, why assume you are entitled to something for free?
This is a key idea. Just because something is a click away doesn't mean anyone is entitled to it for free. Different authors will have different ideas about marketing and while I appreciate getting the PDF for free if I order print, I don't expect it. I will admit that I am sometimes salty about there being no bundled discount though.
 
Why do we expect a for profit company to give us a free PDF when we buy a physical one?
Very simply, I think that PDFs should be priced to account more for the work that went into making it. Writing, Designing, Layout, Art, etc. Currently they aren't. The only difference between PDFs and Print is the logistic of print and the physical media, which is why they should be priced more.

However, when I purchase both, I don't expect the company to double dip.

And the comparison between regular books and RPGs is disingenuous, as they have different uses. A regular book I get in whatever medium I'm going to read it in, and consume it once (or in some cases multiple times), but not in different mediums. RPGs have uses that would indicate you might have to use both types of media.
 
Entitled is not really the right word. I don't "deserve" it for nothing.

But if I bought print, I already bought the creativity. The publisher only clicked once to get that PDF. It's not like I gave them carpal tunnel.

Server fees, corporate overhead, sure, charge me a modest bundle price, where I can clearly see I'm not paying for the whole product twice.

PDF alone? Sure, charge something to reflect creativity without the cost of the print medium. Or do something for the PDF you can't do with print, like include desktop artwork. Or PDF in color, print in b/w.
 
Huh, wander off to take an old man nap and wake up to something. lol. S sharps54 No worries. It's a good question. Here are my bullet points.

01. I love the ease of reading from my tablet and not having to pull out the books.

02. Due to vision issues in recent years, I love being able to zoom in.

03. I also love having physical books. For actual gaming I prefer to use the physical
books at the table. They are faster and easier to use then a pdf.

04. It has become the industry standard and those who push back or have changed their stance on it (SJG) aren't being honest as to their reasoning for it.

05: I frequently find myself printing up individual maps or pages for a game. This is
invaluable. Versus flattening the book on a copier like we used to do in the old
days.

As I wake up that's what comes to mind. Now, that said, I don't actually mind paying say a discounted price for pdf along with my physical copy. Or full price if I was to only get pdf. I just feel that it's an nice benefit to include them for free or discounted price.

Monte Cook Games only includes pdfs free with their products if you back their Kickstarter's. It was actually the main reason I did back them, just so I could get the pdfs instead of paying full price for both. The problem with MCG Kickstarter's is like a Delta Green Kickstarter, they stretch out for years. ::groans::

What pisses me off about SJG is that they were more positive about including pdfs free with their physical products at least in Kickstarter's and then they started going silent and had to be prodded and basically harassed to get the pdf. You can actually find posts by me having to prod an answer out of them in recent years Kickstarters.

I already have a love/hate relationship with SJG due to how they've handled GURPS, so how they have done Kickstarter's in more recent years and having to hassle them has given me a serious case of wanting tell them to fuck off and to walk away as a customer. As it was I had to pay for the pdf of GURPS Girl Genius even though I backed the Kickstarter.
 
I’m not demonizing anyone, I’m asking why do we expect free PDFs but we don’t expect free electronic copies of the latest fantasy novel when we buy the paperback?
I rarely need a fiction novel in multiple formats, be it print, digital, or audio.

I actually have legitimate reference use for a PDF of a rulebook even if I decide to purchase a print copy.

Amazon provides audio for several Kindle books I've downloaded. I don't need it nor do I desire it, because I only consume them one way: Reading them myself. But I retain a rulebook better if I'm reading it in print, while I'm able to reference quicker via PDF (and honestly, I rarely use links in a PDF as long as the text is searchable).

Very simply, I think that PDFs should be priced to account more for the work that went into making it. Writing, Designing, Layout, Art, etc. Currently they aren't. The only difference between PDFs and Print is the logistic of print and the physical media, which is why they should be priced more.

However, when I purchase both, I don't expect the company to double dip.

And the comparison between regular books and RPGs is disingenuous, as they have different uses. A regular book I get in whatever medium I'm going to read it in, and consume it once (or in some cases multiple times), but not in different mediums. RPGs have uses that would indicate you might have to use both types of media.

This, more or less.
 
So why don't you value PDFs then? Again I'm trying to understand the "It's a click away, just give it to me" side, but when you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who's trying to make whatever return they possibly can in a very niche market, why assume you are entitled to something for free?
That, I feel, was suitably answered in post #3:thumbsup:!


Also, nobody is making a big commotion for games where the PDFs aren't exactly free, but are suitably discounted when you're getting the print copy as well. It might cause some customers to look at a competitor, but nobody is claiming we're entitled to it. Using "expecedt" or "entitled" is just framing it in a clearly biased manner, something that S sharps54 's NPC shall be doing...:shade:


So basically, "you do you". If that maximizes your profits, you can even charge more for the PDF and offer the print for free, I guess:grin:!

Entitled is not really the right word. I don't "deserve" it for nothing.

But if I bought print, I already bought the creativity. The publisher only clicked once to get that PDF. It's not like I gave them carpal tunnel.

Server fees, corporate overhead, sure, charge me a modest bundle price, where I can clearly see I'm not paying for the whole product twice.

PDF alone? Sure, charge something to reflect creativity without the cost of the print medium. Or do something for the PDF you can't do with print, like include desktop artwork. Or PDF in color, print in b/w.
Basically this.
 
In my opinion, the main value of the product is the content. That's what I am paying for. When I buy a print book, I pay for two things - the valuable content, and the cost of print+distribution of said book. If I need to pay full price for the pdf after I bought the print book, I feel like I am paying for the content again, which is weird.
 
I value printed books.
I don't value PDFs.

I rarely buy PDFs, and won't pay more than a few dollars for one when I do, because they don't hold a lot of value to me for my purposes. These days I mainly buy rpg books because I enjoy reading them. Print books have resale value, last a long time, and aren't affected by changes in technology. I can read one, put it back on the shelf, and come back 5 or 10 years later and re-read it, having forgotten most of what I read before. In fact, that's what I have been doing with my big collection of World of Darkness books. I last read some of them in the mid-90s, and am enjoying them all over again right now. Once I decide that I have read them enough, I can choose to resell them and make back some (or all, or sometimes more) of what I originally paid.

It is pretty rare for me to buy an rpg book of any sort and actually end up using the stuff in it for one of my games. I have no problem tweaking existing rulesets for my purposes, and homebrew all of the settings, adventures, etc. I have more than 900 print rpg books spanning more than 4 decades, too, so I have more than my fair share of reference material available for charts, weapon statistics, ideas for mechanics, etc., if I need it.

Having said all that, I'm not disparaging the value of PDFs in general. They are worth a lot more to other people than they are to me, particularly people who have limited bookshelf space and who find actual utility in them. If I actually used the stuff in the books more and was willing to read them on a screen, they would have more value to me. As it stands, I don't mind getting PDF copies for free with print copies, but that doesn't really influence my purchasing decisions.

On a side note, I have yet to find a screen-based device that is large enough (and inexpensive enough) to make it comfortable for me to sit on the couch and read books or comics on it. If I ever do find one, I might buy more PDFs. Even then, though, I wouldn't spend as much on one as I would on a print book. I can't resell them, and the real cost of reproducing and distributing them is far less (for the publishers) than print copies.
 
"But I retain a rulebook better if I'm reading it in print, while I'm able to reference quicker via PDF (and honestly, I rarely use links in a PDF as long as the text is searchable). - Tommy Brownell Tommy Brownell


That's fascinating for me. I find that I'm much faster at page flipping via the physical book. So much so that I often will keep the physical book at my side while reading a pdf on my Surface tablet. Maybe if I were typing at a keyboard I'd be faster versus finger typing with a touch screen.
 
Here's my logic. I have multiple scanning items from multiple scanners to non destructive top scanners to flat bed scanner. I could make a PDF for my time alone if I have the book. So knowing that it seems like paying for a PDF is silly. Plus I can download a PDF that's pirated and the only illegal part is someone else did the scanning for me (maybe? That might actually be legal not clear)

So I'm much more irritated and less likely to buy if the PDF isn't included for free with a physical purchase.
 
I actually don’t think publishers should give away PDFs with hardcopies. What should be happening is that a print book is $60, then a PDF should be about $30. If you buy the hard copy you should get a coupon for 50% off the PDF, so you pay about $75 total for both.
 
I actually don’t think publishers should give away PDFs with hardcopies. What should be happening is that a print book is $60, then a PDF should be about $30. If you buy the hard copy you should get a coupon for 50% off the PDF, so you pay about $75 total for both.
I'd actually be totally fine with that myself. I know many wouldn't but I feel that if that were an industry standard it would be perfectly fine. They'd still get my money since I have more free cash to spend on silly hobbies than common sense.
 
What the heck, let’s start some controversy as y’all educate me :hehe:

In a recent thread Acmegamer Acmegamer was discussing Steve Jackson Games and said, “Plus they have shown to be unfriendly to the whole pdf/print concept anymore. Or I should say they grew more and more hostile to it. So like Monte Cook Games, you end up having to frequently pay for both pdf and print.”

Now I like to get a free or low cost PDF alone with a print book as much as the next consumer, I have enough driven to specific stores that support the Bits and Mortar program. That said…

Why do we expect a for profit company to give us a free PDF when we buy a physical one? We don’t expect a free digital novel (kindle) when we buy a physical book. We don’t expect a free audio book when we buy a physical, or electronic, book. We don’t expect a discounted mass paperback along with the hard cover when we buy a novel.

What makes the pdf, which we often complain about if it isn’t hyperlinked (which causes extra work over the physical book), different? Is it just because we want it? Why shouldn’t a company expect to sell both formats when they aren’t expected to give any other format away for free?

The person is paying for the book the contents are the same, just one has physical costs (the book), and one does not: the PDF. The latter should cost a HUGE amount less because it doesn't have to be printed, or warehoused/stored. The PDF/Ebook costs nothing to print, costs less than a hundredth of a penny to store digitally, and the content creators, editors, layout people, etc. all get paid the same.

Providing it as gratis for buying the print is something that helps people actually play the game with useful support allowing people to run games where they can make easy prints of important elements of the game this caters to a more active community, companies sometimes overlook the value of a community in and quite often this leads to them moving to other products--whether its toys, boardgames, role-playing games it all helps to get the product sold through the community.

Legally you're allowed to own a backup copy and in this case, they're providing one so you don't have to scan it yourself as well.

Personally, as a game creator, I want people actually playing my games, over making a slight pittance more--yeah I'm poor but I'm also not a big company with lots of writers to produce products, If I had the money to live WELL, and produce my games? I'd make them free in PDF.

In my own experience, it also tends to reduce piracy. People like the utility of PDF a lot, but it isn't ideal for all situations. Not all of us have nice expensive tablets/laptops to read them on at the table and a print book allows that, and the PDF being provided also allows me to work on game stuff without having to always have the print book sitting in my lap or at a table when I'm writing otherwise.
 
I actually don’t think publishers should give away PDFs with hardcopies. What should be happening is that a print book is $60, then a PDF should be about $30. If you buy the hard copy you should get a coupon for 50% off the PDF, so you pay about $75 total for both.
This is probably worth another thread but this brings up an interesting point: I have no idea how many games I own between print and PDF. But the number that would be worth, say, a $75 buy in for a print and PDF copy? Single digit percentages, surely.

Now, this isn't disparaging the work that goes into an RPG book at all. But it's balancing that versus how much use I actually get out of a book. If I read it once, maybe twice, then put it on a shelf? It's not actually worth any more to me than a book I buy off of Amazon for my Kindle. On the other hand, every core Savage Worlds book I've bought has been more than worth the purchase because the sheer amount of gameplay I've gotten out of them.

Even though I make *far* more money now than I ever have, I buy fewer RPGs because I've started actually considering the realistic chance I'll get anything resembling my money's worth out of a given RPG book...or if it's likely to be read once and then collecting dust (or just taking up hard drive space). Or, for a more illustrative example: There's a reason I backed the Savage Worlds Necessary Evil Boxed set...but my Shadow of the Weird Wizard pledge is sitting at $1 and I'm not sure I'll even up it to digital.
 
Entitled is not really the right word. I don't "deserve" it for nothing.

But if I bought print, I already bought the creativity. The publisher only clicked once to get that PDF. It's not like I gave them carpal tunnel.

Yeah but my point was that you started by saying that you don't value PDFs, then you listed specific things that you do value in a PDF, beyond the creativity:

For me, the purpose of a PDF is threefold: evaluating a book for purchase, rapid online reference through keyword searches (most game indexes and org schemes are sub-par) and preserving the value of my print copy. I might read my print copy once or twice, but it's the PDF that proxies all the wear and tear.

So they either have value or they don't, is my point. Right now I'm leaning in the direction that they do.
 
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