Resources for Historical Campaigns

[Peter Von Danzig]

For sure, there's a lot of low hanging fruit in terms of rules for boats and ships. I think perhaps there are some cross-purposes at work here. It's probably my fault but the contributions have been mostly about combat on ships between men rather than between ships, which now that I reread it was indeed part of your question.

At the SSk level of resolution I'd treat ships like warbands but with different peripheral rules (skills, actions, etc). I'm a big fan of dragging a game's base resolution through all its systems rather than switching gears. I think the 4d20 combat rules would work wonderfully to represent a warband or ship's crew training.

And to be clear, I didn't mean any of my post as a criticism, just as another way of looking at it.

 

[AsenRG]

I think the movement is the biggest thing you need to define. On the rest, cramped conditions exist in tunnel fighting, barroom brawls, and many other places...hell, medieval castles had their stairs turning in the exact direction that would make them harder for an attacking force to use weapons efficiently: clockwise, where your weapon arm would hit the central column all the time...
In Codex terms, that would be "gain 1 penalty die", i.e. roll 1 die less. If you only roll 1 die, roll 2 dice and take the lower one.

Oh, and the churches were like that, too, for obvious reasons!

And those stairs are tight! The ones with claustrophobia almost started choking up when we were visiting Schwerin, especially with the older buildings - now, the palace, that one had very little in way of defensive fortifications, on first glance...

But it's still in the middle of a fucking lake, and has cannons. And the weapons and armours on the walls still seem quite functional.

So yes, I think treating ships like castles and then overlaying moving and higher vulnerability is the way to go, i.e. exactly what you explained in your post.
Great note about different height of ships, BTW. Of course, that also made pirate ships harder to spot, which is why they often used long ships.
All the height advantage in the world doesn't help one iota if the lookout misses the ship until it's late. And especially on rowing boats, in the dark, it's quite possible to miss them.
Of course, the downside to that is that if you approach a ship on a rowing boat, armed to the teeth and trying not to attract attention, and you get spotted...well, you're likely to have a cannon pointed at you at least. If they don't fire, you abort and retreat. There's no guarantee they won't fire, though, most likely they will.
So imagine it, even purely as a PC: you are approaching.
The GM smiles and tells you to roll Boating. If you fail, you attract the attention of the lookout. Even if you don't, if he makes it, there's going to be an opposed roll...
So you're basically depending on his failure. If you happen on a keen sentry, you die.
Fancy taking your chances...punks?

Which explains why "desperate" is often used to denote pirate crews. Desperate men would take that chance. Few others would fancy it.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

For sure! The vicissitudes of maritime travel need some love. Most of my games have somewhat abstracted journey rules (Encounters per X etc) so that's where I'd fold in the environmental rules for the most part. At the combat level I think it would be enough to apply modifiers for rough weather and whatnot.

Yeah most of the stuff I mentioned so far is really at the 'tactical' level of an ongoing fight. There is also the operational and strategic level. Logistics, navigation. Chasing and fleeing. Detection and concealment (in fog, behind an island...)Trade can also be very interesting. Getting the right stuff in one port that people will want to buy in the next, and not getting your throat cut in either.

One of my favorite historical sources for this kind of stuff is the Periplus of the Erythian Sea. This is a kind of guide, as a precursor to a map. A little bit like the old Yahoo driving instructions they used to have before the maps on the phones etc. Drive 10 miles and take exit 99, that kind of thing.

This one though is from the 1st Century, and details every port (and one's likely experiences there) going all the way from Alexandria in Egypt, down the Arabian coast and the Red Sea, throug hte4 Gulf of Aden and across the horn of Africa, and then across the Persian Gulf and into the Indian Ocean.

Each port is rated for various dangers, port facilities, what is available to trade, and what the local etiquette may be like. It's a fascinating read.

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Full text

The Commerce and Navigation of the Erythræan Sea by John Watson McCrindle

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

Interactive map

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea Embark on a virtual voyage with our meticulously crafted digital map, charting the ancient maritime adventure of the “Periplus of the Erythraean Sea.”…

digitalmapsoftheancientworld.com

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Great note about different height of ships, BTW. Of course, that also made pirate ships harder to spot, which is why they often used long ships.
All the height advantage in the world doesn't help one iota if the lookout misses the ship until it's late. And especially on rowing boats, in the dark, it's quite possible to miss them.
Of course, the downside to that is that if you approach a ship on a rowing boat, armed to the teeth and trying not to attract attention, and you get spotted...well, you're likely to have a cannon pointed at you at least. If they don't fire, you abort and retreat. There's no guarantee they won't fire, though, most likely they will.
So imagine it, even purely as a PC: you are approaching.
The GM smiles and tells you to roll Boating. If you fail, you attract the attention of the lookout. Even if you don't, if he makes it, there's going to be an opposed roll...
So you're basically depending on his failure. If you happen on a keen sentry, you die.
Fancy taking your chances...punks?

Which explains why "desperate" is often used to denote pirate crews. Desperate men would take that chance. Few others would fancy it.

Very, very good point's here. Detection is so often such an important part of naval war or naval adventures of every kind. And you are right, many real pirates didn't use ships at all but 100% relied on boats, and the element of surprise, putting cloth in the oar locks to quietly row up in the dark as you said.

 

[AsenRG]

Oh, and oar sheering is part of what I mentioned about ships moving. That is where the real crux* of such a system would be, methinks.


Also, successfully shearing oars kills or maims a significant portion of the crew manning them. You're losing expensive slaves if they're manned by such, but you're also removing potential defenders if they're manned by the crew.


*Well, that and boarding, keeping favourable distance for your guns, and putting a hole in the other ship, below the water line, if you have the required spike on your nose.

 

[AsenRG]

Very, very good point's here. Detection is so often such an important part of naval war or naval adventures of every kind. And you are right, many real pirates didn't use ships at all but 100% relied on boats, and the element of surprise, putting cloth in the oar locks to quietly row up in the dark as you said.

Yes, I've read a bit on them...what boy hasn't?
Somali pirates still use boats, except with engines, not oars.

Of course, detection is a huge part of any kind of war or conflict. Even in a fight which escalates from an argument, the one who doesn't see in time it's going to start, i.e. doesn't detect the start of the fight, usually loses.


I tell it outright to my players that detection skills and combat skills are to be prioritised...

 

[Acmegamer]

Sure, ships have some environmental factors involved in terms of boarding and melee. I don't think I'd want a long list of specific rules for that though. much more.

GURPS has got you! I mean seriously the whole bonus/penalty range that is from +4 to -4 covers most things on the fly without a bunch of specific rulings.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Of course, detection is a huge part of any kind of war or conflict. Even in a fight which escalates from an argument, the one who doesn't see in time it's going to start, i.e. doesn't detect the start of the fight, usually loses.

Sure but detection skills are both a bit ... different, at sea, and even more vital. For one thing you aren't just keeping watch out for the enemy, but also weather, and underwater features like shoals and reefs as I'd previously noted. For another, while a strong castle can expect to hold out against enemies, few ships can endure being outnumbered unless they have some kind of major qualitative advantage.

If you are in a castle, it's probably been there a long time. You more than likely know the lay of the land, the hiding places, the cover, the routes of communication and travel, very well. They may have been established for centuries. Firing lanes are usually cleared for your defenders.

Ships move around and are often going to be places they have never been before. The underwater landscape even in a familiar place also changes capriciously and much more often than on dry land. A big storm can change the locations of channels and reefs almost overnight. This is why to this day every major port in the world requires ships to be brought in by local pilots, who take over control from the captain of the vessel.

Figuring out the lay of the (underwater) land was also routinely a major strategic factor in naval war and conflicts. Pirates often made their lairs in areas where the reefs were considered treacherous by mariners and only the locals knew the safe channels and tides. The city of Venice arose in just such a place, away from easy access by the dangerous Romans.

Navigation was also changing rapidly by the time you get to the era of plate armor and longswords and so on. The use of the compass (thanks to the compass rose and improvements in mathematics) had become commonplace, and ships, even rowed galleys, were no longer just hugging the coasts but venturing forth across the 'wine dark seas'. That meant they could arrive more unpredictably, if they laid their charts right, and take enemies by surprise.

 

[AsenRG]

Sure but detection skills are both a bit ... different, at sea, and even more vital. For one thing you aren't just keeping watch out for the enemy, but also weather, and underwater features like shoals and reefs as I'd previously noted.

Indeed, but you know I'm using the Mythras family games, right? So this is resolved simply by saying "roll Perception, capped by Craft: Sailor or Navigation".
Capping skills is a very good mechanic. This means a very alert landlubber is... still a landlubber, and you don't put him in the Crow's Nest!

For another, while a strong castle can expect to hold out against enemies, few ships can endure being outnumbered unless they have some kind of major qualitative advantage.

Well, a castle is never surrounded by other castles, which is its major advantage. It can't move, but neither can other fortifications.

Again in mechanical terms, castles have scale compared to individual men (in non-mechanical terms, "you can't hurt the castle without grenades or artillery, and even then you probably still can't"), and even companies would likely have penalties. (Also, ships can be part of a siege, because they are "movable fortifications" that you can get into shooting range of a castle wall - despite the fact that they are still suffering from inferior scale penalties).

If you are in a castle, it's probably been there a long time. You more than likely know the lay of the land, the hiding places, the cover, the routes of communication and travel, very well. They may have been established for centuries. Firing lanes are usually cleared for your defenders.

Ships move around and are often going to be places they have never been before. The underwater landscape even in a familiar place also changes capriciously and much more often than on dry land. A big storm can change the locations of channels and reefs almost overnight. This is why to this day every major port in the world requires ships to be brought in by local pilots, who take over control from the captain of the vessel.

Figuring out the lay of the (underwater) land was also routinely a major strategic factor in naval war and conflicts. Pirates often made their lairs in areas where the reefs were considered treacherous by mariners and only the locals knew the safe channels and tides. The city of Venice arose in just such a place, away from easy access by the dangerous Romans.

All true, but again, those are just additional things that can change. You can make it a separate system, but then you'd have to account for combining the systems as soon as someone tries using a ship against a castle...

In many games, that would be about half an hour, I suspect.

Navigation was also changing rapidly by the time you get to the era of plate armor and longswords and so on. The use of the compass (thanks to the compass rose and improvements in mathematics) had become commonplace, and ships, even rowed galleys, were no longer just hugging the coasts but venturing forth across the 'wine dark seas'. That meant they could arrive more unpredictably, if they laid their charts right, and take enemies by surprise.

All true, but then hardy foresters or mountaineers could achieve the same - see Hannibal's Alpine crossing!

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Indeed, but you know I'm using the Mythras family games, right? So this is resolved simply by saying "roll Perception, capped by Craft: Sailor or Navigation".
Capping skills is a very good mechanic. This means a very alert landlubber is... still a landlubber, and you don't put him in the Crow's Nest!

Extra die to throw in on your roll to improve the odds works pretty well too. That might also come from say, a spyglass.

Well, a castle is never surrounded by other castles, which is its major advantage. It can't move, but neither can other fortifications.

In a siege, effectively they sometimes are (going way back, ask Vercingentorix about that one), though your point is more generally taken. Castles don't go roaming around looking for other castles to attack and rob. But I think you can say that very broadly speaking, many ships amount, effectively, to a relatively small, lightly made (wooden) castle that also moves.

Again in mechanical terms, castles have scale compared to individual men (in non-mechanical terms, "you can't hurt the castle without grenades or artillery, and even then you probably still can't"), and even companies would likely have penalties. (Also, ships can be part of a siege, because they are "movable fortifications" that you can get into shooting range of a castle wall - despite the fact that they are still suffering from inferior scale penalties).

The merits of elevation on both attack and defense have been part of my system for a few years now

All true, but again, those are just additional things that can change. You can make it a separate system, but then you'd have to account for combining the systems as soon as someone tries using a ship against a castle...

I'm not so sure it needs a separate system, so much as a ship has more

At the absolute simplest level, a castle or some other fortification assists in defense, and inhibits attack by enemies. Those within the castle get cover and perhaps an advantage at shooting or throwing things. Those outside have hurdles to overcome (figuratively and literally) to get in.

On the next step up the abstraction ladder you could also say that a castle has a degree of vulnerability (how easy is it to destroy, is it made of thick stone walls, or thin wooden ones? Is it on an inaccessible cliff or island, or out in the open. Does it have a moat? etc.) and a capacity for defenders and for logistics (how many people can hide in, or help defend a given castle. How much space is there in the cellars for food and supplies. Did they lay any in before the siege? Is there a well? Is there a sortie tunnel? Who, precisely, knows the location of the sortie tunnel and it's exit?

These things don't necessarily form burden of rules, as so much opportunities for dramatic hooks and game play.

A ship then, also, has the ability to move. It moves at a certain speed. It moves in a certain way (rowed or sailed or both, sailing down the wind or across the wind, etc.). Going up the abstraction ladder it may also have a draft which determines if it can sail up that shallow creek on the way to the abandoned monastery or not. Not necessarily a contradiction, but a strategic or tactical consideration which again, can enhance game play.

In many games, that would be about half an hour, I suspect.


All true, but then hardy foresters or mountaineers could achieve the same - see Hannibal's Alpine crossing!

I guess it shouldn't take a half an hour, though who knows. Just rolling a few extra dice can be pretty quick.

Sure Hannibal crossed the Alps, which is unexpected, but Vikings went up quite a few rivers to inflict grim surprises in many, many places - France, Ireland, England, Scotland, the Low Countries, the southern Baltic countries, Poland, Russia, all the way down to Bulgaria ;). The Cossacks did much the same thing to the Ottomans....

Again, I see that as an opportunity for drama and adventure more than anything else.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

When it comes to sieges, or naval combat, or any kind of warfare with larger groups of people that you may want to abstract either a little or a lot in an RPG, an element that I rarely see portrayed accurately is the role of music in warfare.



This is from an early 16th Century Swiss Chronicle (Eidgenössische Chronik), and you can see some elite infantry, with pikes, halberds, and longsword sidearms, wearing good half-armor, singing as they march and being led by a bagpiper, who seems to also be singing at the moment...

Another, from the same Chronicle, showing militia following a fifer and a drummer


A similar depiction from another earlier, 15th Century Swiss Chronicle by Diebold Schilling, with an army from Uri on the march behind a drummer and a fifer

This is something you see over and over and over again in period depictions of armies, militias, even raids. Every time someone sent an army out, even a small raiding party with a dozen men, they send a couple of musicians too. The Landsknechts and Reislauffer (professional infantry of the late medieval period) all had their war-songs. As did the much-feared Bohemian heretics. And so, of course, did the Ottomans, whose famous Mehter sound almost kind of friendly today, as it was copied by the likes of John Philip Sousa, but struck terror in the hearts of thousands of people during their heyday




This Ottoman horseman, probably a scout, depicted by Albrecht Dürer in the early 16th Century, has a pair of drums on his saddle. These could be used for long distance communication, including in a manner that would not necessarily be noticed by enemies. Also note his gorytos, which contains the bow and the arrows, and his sword. He also probably carries a mace.

Music was used for morale (to build that of your troops, and harm that of your enemy) but also for many other things, in particular communication. Drums set the pace of the march, and could communicate orders ("Pivot to your left. Form column. Cease marching. Double time march. Load your guns etc.) and intelligence ("Enemy in sight. Road is blocked ahead. Merge with friendly unit appearing on your right.")


This fellow is a Latin military bagpiper, also depicted by Albrecht Dürer

Any time you see a unit of even as few as a dozen people, you see musicians sent out. Drummers, fifers, horn players, bagpipe players. The Teutonic Knights relied heavily on music to help maintain their notoriously high morale, and used it to stiffen the ranks of their Baltic allies during wars against the Lithuanians, Mongols, and Muscovites. They taught war-songs and marching chants (including "Greifen! Schlagen! Töten!" / "Seize! / Smash! / Kill!") to their Liv and Lett allies, which seemed to markedly increase morale and effectiveness in several battles.


This is a detail from a fresco by Bernardino Pinturicchio, from 1503, Siena Italy. Many of what we would consider modern musical instruments were invented in the 15th and 16th Centuries...

In RPGs we have the DnD version of the Bard, which starts with song and music and veers quickly into a specific subset of magic, but there is perhaps a lot of room to have interesting role for musicians. In a battle or siege (rally for the breach attempt, desperate call for help?), among scouts and spies, or in command and control elements (keep them safe or stop them!) Or on ships, as sailors of course also have their many songs...

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Speaking of the much feared war-songs of the Bohemian heretic's (which seem to have won at least two battles when the Crusader armies just panicked and fled as soon as they heard it, before any fighting even started) I always find this rendition, both the song and the video, extremely moving.

It is sung by an at the time very famous Czech opera singer, and is filmed at the site of one of their greatest victories from the 15th Century. It depicts the time when Czechoslovakia was re-created as a nation right after WW I, after having been absorbed in the 18th century by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So you can see why all the people are so moved. We have to try to imagine thousands of heavily armed Hussite warriors singing this while marching to war...

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Landsknecht war-song

Venetian "Serene Republic" war-song

Kind of sad that Venice survived 1,000 years as a Republic, defeating the mighty Ottomans, the French, and many others, and still managed to survive until my lifetime, only to be more or less sunk by Overtourism today.

Roman March song

You may recognize the call and response, we have this still in our Militaries today... maybe not quite as cool as the Roman version

The Greek Paen is a little stranger sounding



The haunting Zulu War song ... also with call and response

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

The rowdy, rousing Cossack War Song

 

[Acmegamer]

Damn, ran out of time to listen to them all, so I had to bookmark the posts to get back to later on tonight to listen/watch the rest!

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Glad somebody liked it!

 

[Acmegamer]

Landsknecht war-song

Venetian "Serene Republic" war-song

Kind of sad that Venice survived 1,000 years as a Republic, defeating the mighty Ottomans, the French, and many others, and still managed to survive until my lifetime, only to be more or less sunk by Overtourism today.

Roman March song

You may recognize the call and response, we have this still in our Militaries today... maybe not quite as cool as the Roman version

The Greek Paen is a little stranger sounding



The haunting Zulu War song ... also with call and response

Ok, those were really cool and the differences are fascinating. Really dug the Landsknecht, Roman March song and Zulu War song. The Greek Paen sounded more like something you'd listen to on a stage with actors portraying militaristic roles. Though I really liked it, to be honest.

 

[swzl]

That's why I like this thread so much. It's very thought provoking. All these years and I have not given the first thought to martial music. Even though I read Aesop's Fables as a kid and remember the captured musician being denied clemency because the king cited him for being worse than the enemy soldiers because they just fought. He incited them to fight with greater fervor.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Today we are used to traveling even moderately long distances by machine - car, bicycle, e-bike, scooter, train, plane etc. But in those days, there were only three ways - horse, cart, and on foot. For most armies in most of the world (with some exceptions), most of the people were on foot. So having marching music was a big part of it. The music helps you keep going much farther than you thought you could, and can also quickly adjust the tempo- pick up the pace, and the mood, as needed, such as right before a fight. This is definitely something you learn in the Army during boot camp.



And in battle, well, that's something you learn a hint of in a punk or metal show. Music can really transform your mood, including into something wild and feral. Especially as a collective experience. I think that is what the Greek Paen is supposed to do in particular. In some Churches you'll get an idea of this as well. And we also have it around here during Carnival. Like for example, this is one which the "Carnival Indians" - carnival marching clubs - who used to fight every year (but fortunately now don't) chant during their marches. This one gets you ready to go "buck wild" pretty quick. My heart is beating faster just listening to it right now. Might be something that doesn't translate beyond this area though I'm not sure.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I think of all those historical ones, the two that grab me the most are the Hussite war song and the Cossack one. I must be Slavic from another life or something...

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Still gradually going through that chronicle - here's a rather amusing image of what looks like maybe an itinerant musician and his dog, running into a pretty hard core looking column of Swiss soldiers, with a gallows on the hilltop in the background...

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Happy May Day everyone

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

(NSFW version... ) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...g_to_their_Sabbath_by_Luis_Ricardo_Falero.jpg

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

here's another great image from that Swiss Chronicle. Depicting a very famous incident.

This is the definition of political accountability. The guy on the bridge with the pollaxe is Rudolf Stüssi, at the nadir of his career as burgomeister of the Free City of Zürich. Stüssi was a very successful political leader ... for a while. Whereas Zürich is known today as a stolid center of mighty banks, and a comfortably quiet enclave of the very wealthy, in the late medieval period it was a hotbed of working class rebellion. The guilds took over the city in the 14th Century under the leadership of another ambitious radical burgomeister named Rudolf Brun, who seized control from the Imperial Convent (and the abbess thereof) in 1336. From that point on, the city shared in several victories of the Swiss confederation, and won territory, rights, and feudal honors.

Under Stüssi's five years in office, Zürich was on the rise, during a period of rapid expansion and growth of the Swiss Confederation. But his ambitions got the city in trouble, and Zürich ended up feuding with some other Swiss communes over control of land, and then making an alliance with the hated Hapsburgs. This was kind of a 'third rail' of Swiss politics, and triggered the Old Zurich War from 1440-1446, in which the rest of the Confederacy attacked Zürich, who fought them off for five years. The war is notable for it's extensive use of high technology weapons especially warships and rafts carrying cannons while operating on Lake Zurich and other other lakes and rivers in the area.

Stüssi, like many of the more elite political leadership in the towns, was experienced in war and had been knighted. As the war gradually turned against his town under the weight of the entire Confederacy, he led the defense. Here he is accepting responsibility for his mistakes as few political leaders today will. Clad in full plate harness, and wielding a huge poll-axe, he defends the bridge over the river Sihl, as his fellow citizens retreat back inside the city walls. There are various accounts of this action at the end of the Battle of St. Jakob an der Sihl in 1443, with one version of the story saying that a Confederate militiaman got under the bridge and stabbed him from below, while another claims that Zürich militia struck him down when he was yelling "halt, citizens halt!"

Another account note that the city was saved by the gatekeeper's wife Anna Ziegler who dropped the portcullis gate just in time to stop the pursuing army.

Fortunately for Switzerland, the war soon petered out, as both sides were exhausted, and it formally ended four years later in 1450, and in a rather remarkable diplomatic feat, the Confederates accepted Zürich back into the fold in 1450.

The lesson for posterity is, when as a political leader you make a mistake that costs lives of your citizens, you should be prepared to take the responsibility for your actions. I wish some of our modern leaders had the courage to do the same when they screw up this bad, but I won't hold my breath......

 

[Acmegamer]

(NSFW version... ) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...g_to_their_Sabbath_by_Luis_Ricardo_Falero.jpg

Really liked Falero's style of painting.

 

[Urdlen's best boy]

On the music thing :
Ottoman war music:


an old song from Aquitaine :

This is gold :

 

[AsenRG]

Glad somebody liked it!

Oh, I quite like it as well. I simply wasn't on the Pub for a couple days, for non-forum reasons...

Today we are used to traveling even moderately long distances by machine - car, bicycle, e-bike, scooter, train, plane etc. But in those days, there were only three ways - horse, cart, and on foot.

Well, and boat!

/pedant mode

For most armies in most of the world (with some exceptions), most of the people were on foot. So having marching music was a big part of it. The music helps you keep going much farther than you thought you could, and can also quickly adjust the tempo- pick up the pace, and the mood, as needed, such as right before a fight. This is definitely something you learn in the Army during boot camp.

I got that lesson from a story about Tibet's fast-walking semi-mystical message carriers, but the gist of it is the same: walk in rhythm, whether you're humming a song, or a prayer...

Then walk outdoor with people not used to the outdoors, and everyone's going to comment on your endurance!

And in battle, well, that's something you learn a hint of in a punk or metal show. Music can really transform your mood, including into something wild and feral. Especially as a collective experience. I think that is what the Greek Paen is supposed to do in particular. In some Churches you'll get an idea of this as well. And we also have it around here during Carnival. Like for example, this is one which the "Carnival Indians" - carnival marching clubs - who used to fight every year (but fortunately now don't) chant during their marches. This one gets you ready to go "buck wild" pretty quick. My heart is beating faster just listening to it right now. Might be something that doesn't translate beyond this area though I'm not sure.

FWIW, that one is the one that I rated as "second most likely to get you in a fighting mood", after the Cossack one.

Yes, I also got that listening to metal. Until today, I half suspected it's just me...

I think of all those historical ones, the two that grab me the most are the Hussite war song and the Cossack one. I must be Slavic from another life or something...

Welcome to the fold!

Also, "me too", but ain't nobody surprised, I suspect. Although, if the song you posted from your area counts, then it edges out the Hussite one!

here's another great image from that Swiss Chronicle. Depicting a very famous incident.

This is the definition of political accountability. The guy on the bridge with the pollaxe is Rudolf Stüssi, at the nadir of his career as burgomeister of the Free City of Zürich. Stüssi was a very successful political leader ... for a while. Whereas Zürich is known today as a stolid center of mighty banks, and a comfortably quiet enclave of the very wealthy, in the late medieval period it was a hotbed of working class rebellion. The guilds took over the city in the 14th Century under the leadership of another ambitious radical burgomeister named Rudolf Brun, who seized control from the Imperial Convent (and the abbess thereof) in 1336. From that point on, the city shared in several victories of the Swiss confederation, and won territory, rights, and feudal honors.

Under Stüssi's five years in office, Zürich was on the rise, during a period of rapid expansion and growth of the Swiss Confederation. But his ambitions got the city in trouble, and Zürich ended up feuding with some other Swiss communes over control of land, and then making an alliance with the hated Hapsburgs. This was kind of a 'third rail' of Swiss politics, and triggered the Old Zurich War from 1440-1446, in which the rest of the Confederacy attacked Zürich, who fought them off for five years. The war is notable for it's extensive use of high technology weapons especially warships and rafts carrying cannons while operating on Lake Zurich and other other lakes and rivers in the area.

Stüssi, like many of the more elite political leadership in the towns, was experienced in war and had been knighted. As the war gradually turned against his town under the weight of the entire Confederacy, he led the defense. Here he is accepting responsibility for his mistakes as few political leaders today will. Clad in full plate harness, and wielding a huge poll-axe, he defends the bridge over the river Sihl, as his fellow citizens retreat back inside the city walls. There are various accounts of this action at the end of the Battle of St. Jakob an der Sihl in 1443, with one version of the story saying that a Confederate militiaman got under the bridge and stabbed him from below, while another claims that Zürich militia struck him down when he was yelling "halt, citizens halt!"

Another account note that the city was saved by the gatekeeper's wife Anna Ziegler who dropped the portcullis gate just in time to stop the pursuing army.

Fortunately for Switzerland, the war soon petered out, as both sides were exhausted, and it formally ended four years later in 1450, and in a rather remarkable diplomatic feat, the Confederates accepted Zürich back into the fold in 1450.

The lesson for posterity is, when as a political leader you make a mistake that costs lives of your citizens, you should be prepared to take the responsibility for your actions. I wish some of our modern leaders had the courage to do the same when they screw up this bad, but I won't hold my breath......

View attachment 81614

I would have enjoyed seeing that kind of political accountability in the modern world, but yeah, not holding my breath, either...

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I made a video covering some of the things I'd posted upthread about underground spaces in the medieval world

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Someone made a bronze statue of Albrecht Dürer's famous engraving "Knight, death and the Devil", which many believe depicts the infamous robber knight Konrad Schött von Schottenstein

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

If that doesn't scream "Historical settings are outstanding inspiration for RPGs" then I definitely can't help you.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

One amusing thing about the medieval world is that they were so heavily influenced by the Classical scholars, that they thought like them. This included for medicine, which was based on Aristotle and the Galenic humours. Those also extended to personality types.

This is a (to me) funny excerpt from a 16th Century French nobleman's war and politics memoirs, where he describes how, as a military leader, to deal with soldiers from different parts of Europe:

"A prudent and staid Governor, when he is amongst strange Nations must try as much as in him lies, to conform himself to the humour of the people with whom he has to do.* With the Germans and Swiss you must be cholerick and rough: with the Spaniards you must observe their starcht face and formality, and pretend to be a little more religious and devout than you perhaps really are: with the Italians you must be discreet and cir∣cumspect, neither to offend them in themselves, nor to court their wives: as for the French man he is for any thing: but so it was that God gave me the grace, who am a Gascon, sudden, cholerick, willful, and forward, so to deport my self with this jealous and mi∣strustful Nation, that not so much as any one Citizen could ever complain of me."

If any of those national stereotypes seem offensive, please keep in mind they belong to the 16th Century, not to me!

Source: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A51199.0001.001/1:10?rgn=div1;view=fulltext;q1=mill#DLPS12

 

[Acmegamer]

One amusing thing about the medieval world is that they were so heavily influenced by the Classical scholars, that they thought like them. This included for medicine, which was based on Aristotle and the Galenic humours. Those also extended to personality types.

This is a (to me) funny excerpt from a 16th Century French nobleman's war and politics memoirs, where he describes how, as a military leader, to deal with soldiers from different parts of Europe:

"A prudent and staid Governor, when he is amongst strange Nations must try as much as in him lies, to conform himself to the humour of the people with whom he has to do.* With the Germans and Swiss you must be cholerick and rough: with the Spaniards you must observe their starcht face and formality, and pretend to be a little more religious and devout than you perhaps really are: with the Italians you must be discreet and cir∣cumspect, neither to offend them in themselves, nor to court their wives: as for the French man he is for any thing: but so it was that God gave me the grace, who am a Gascon, sudden, cholerick, willful, and forward, so to deport my self with this jealous and mi∣strustful Nation, that not so much as any one Citizen could ever complain of me."

If any of those national stereotypes seem offensive, please keep in mind they belong to the 16th Century, not to me!

Source: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A51199.0001.001/1:10?rgn=div1;view=fulltext;q1=mill#DLPS12

Sure sure, I bet that someone somewhere has a painting of you standing on the side of a cobblestone road in some middle ages city with a bell, calling out these cholerick and rough Germans and Swiss! We know your one of those Immortals... you know the whole "There can be only one!" types. Always got a beef, you lot!

 

[AsenRG]

One amusing thing about the medieval world is that they were so heavily influenced by the Classical scholars, that they thought like them. This included for medicine, which was based on Aristotle and the Galenic humours. Those also extended to personality types.

This is a (to me) funny excerpt from a 16th Century French nobleman's war and politics memoirs, where he describes how, as a military leader, to deal with soldiers from different parts of Europe:

"A prudent and staid Governor, when he is amongst strange Nations must try as much as in him lies, to conform himself to the humour of the people with whom he has to do.* With the Germans and Swiss you must be cholerick and rough: with the Spaniards you must observe their starcht face and formality, and pretend to be a little more religious and devout than you perhaps really are: with the Italians you must be discreet and cir∣cumspect, neither to offend them in themselves, nor to court their wives: as for the French man he is for any thing: but so it was that God gave me the grace, who am a Gascon, sudden, cholerick, willful, and forward, so to deport my self with this jealous and mi∣strustful Nation, that not so much as any one Citizen could ever complain of me."

If any of those national stereotypes seem offensive, please keep in mind they belong to the 16th Century, not to me!

Source: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A51199.0001.001/1:10?rgn=div1;view=fulltext;q1=mill#DLPS12

I agree, this is hilarious!

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

What would be the best advice for where you are from?

For here - laugh easily, be able to take a joke without getting too easily offended. Superstition is expected, but don't pretend to be too religious. Maybe Sanguine is the closest humour.

 

[AsenRG]

What would be the best advice for where you are from?

Depends on the people you're dealing with, I've met some rather disparate characters...

But generally, be chill, neither offend nor push for immediate action, be courteous, and stuff would suddenly work in your favour. The jar of honey gets you further than the jar of bile, and so on.

For here - laugh easily, be able to take a joke without getting too easily offended. Superstition is expected, but don't pretend to be too religious. Maybe Sanguine is the closest humour.

A curious mix of Sanguine and Phlegmatic, I'd say.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Depends on the people you're dealing with, I've met some rather disparate characters...

But generally, be chill, neither offend nor push for immediate action, be courteous, and stuff would suddenly work in your favour. The jar of honey gets you further than the jar of bile, and so on.

yeah that sounds basically phlegmatic...

A curious mix of Sanguine and Phlegmatic, I'd say.

Probably accurate, we are essentially a northern branch of the Caribbean down here

 

[Lofgeornost]

One rather bizarre ethnic stereotype of the Middle Ages was the idea that some foreigners had tails. This was said of people from various regions by their foes; the Scots claimed it about the English, for example. It shows up in a somewhat truncated version in Walter Bower's Scotichronicon, book 3. This is the fairly literal translation from the recent University of Aberdeen edition:

When the blessed Augustine was preaching the world of life to the heathen among the West Saxons in the county of Dorset, he came into a certain village where no one wished to receive him or to listen to his preaching. They rebelled against him in all respects and tried to contradict everything that he said and to obscure everything by taking a wrong meaning out of it, and—a thing which is wicked even to mention—they were so bold as to sew and hang fishtails on his clothing. But what they themselves believed they were doing to harm the holy father actually turned out to be to the eternal disgrace of themselves and their descendants and their innocent country. For God smote them in their hinder parts, giving them everlasting shame so that in the private parts both of themselves and their descendants all were born with a tail. Now, a tail of this kind is called by the local inhabitants in their native language 'mughel' from which the village in which this kind of injury was inflicted on blessed Augustine got the name of Muglington (that is the town of the people with the mughels) which it has to the present day.

It is also said that, following their example, in the province of the Mercians in the village which is called Tamworth the inhabitants of the place offered a similar insult to the blessed man, but they did not go unpunished because both they themselves and their descendants, as everyone knows, suffered the shame of a like punishment and disgrace. A similar incident occurred in the time of the exile of blessed Thomas primate of England, because to insult him (as they believed, but their wickedness deceived them) the people of Rochester disfigured and cut off his horse's tail, which has led to their descendants in that place being found with tails.

It's interesting that this is always presented as divine vengeance for messing with saints and limited to just a few locations--which, I suppose, could be useful for explaining away empirical evidence that the English were tail-less. According to the notes in the edition, Muglington seems to be a fictitious place, though 'mughel' is a real if obscure dialect word for 'tail,' but from Kent, not Dorset. Perhaps the tale was originally set in Kent but moved to Dorset because of traditions that people of that region at first opposed Augustine's mission?

On the RPG front, a more fantasy-leaning game could include towns or villages whose inhabitants have tails, either for reasons similar to those in these stories or for other causes. Frankly, the whole 'fish-tail' aspect of the Muglington story would fit well with the idea that the inhabitants of the village were Deep One hybrids who already had tails before Augustine arrived.

The Aberdeen edition and translation of Bower's Scotichronicon--the only full translation into Engish, I think--runs to 9 volumes and is quite pricey, as you'd imagine. But there is a 1-volume 'greatest hits' set of excerpts from it, A History Book for Scots: Selections from the Scotichronicon, ed. D.E.R. Watt (John Donald, 2012) which is very reasonable on Kindle ($2.99) and which may be available free in e-book form to anyone whose public library has the Hoopla service.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I don't know this guy, but this is really well done. Cover image looks a bit click bait but IMO this is legit, and right up the alley of what this thread is all about.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

One rather bizarre ethnic stereotype of the Middle Ages was the idea that some foreigners had tails. This was said of people from various regions by their foes; the Scots claimed it about the English, for example. It shows up in a somewhat truncated version in Walter Bower's Scotichronicon, book 3. This is the fairly literal translation from the recent University of Aberdeen edition:

Hahaha! I love it. Wonderful, very interesting.

It's interesting that this is always presented as divine vengeance for messing with saints and limited to just a few locations--which, I suppose, could be useful for explaining away empirical evidence that the English were tail-less. According to the notes in the edition, Muglington seems to be a fictitious place, though 'mughel' is a real if obscure dialect word for 'tail,' but from Kent, not Dorset. Perhaps the tale was originally set in Kent but moved to Dorset because of traditions that people of that region at first opposed Augustine's mission?

Or maybe the people who gave them the name were outsiders?

On the RPG front, a more fantasy-leaning game could include towns or villages whose inhabitants have tails, either for reasons similar to those in these stories or for other causes. Frankly, the whole 'fish-tail' aspect of the Muglington story would fit well with the idea that the inhabitants of the village were Deep One hybrids who already had tails before Augustine arrived.

Absolutely, 100%

The Aberdeen edition and translation of Bower's Scotichronicon--the only full translation into Engish, I think--runs to 9 volumes and is quite pricey, as you'd imagine. But there is a 1-volume 'greatest hits' set of excerpts from it, A History Book for Scots: Selections from the Scotichronicon, ed. D.E.R. Watt (John Donald, 2012) which is very reasonable on Kindle ($2.99) and which may be available free in e-book form to anyone whose public library has the Hoopla service.

And you provide the sources, fantastic.

This whole thing brings to mind two things to me, one is the melusine or mermaid legends that you find in rivers and coastal areas all around Europe, still very prominent in the medieval period. The French even wrote a romance novel about it, "Romance de Melusine", the key theme of which was ... Mrs Melusine trying to hide the fact that she had a tail (and maybe a few fins and whatnot), as you can see being discovered here:



These mermaids were quite important on several rivers, probably the two most famous are the rascallish Lorelei on the Rhine, at the location of whom the local government has now made a little statue which I visited back in 2019. Very spooky place in spite of the heavy river traffic... for one thing like in innumerable horror movies, in this strange area dominated by 15th Century raubritter castles scowling down at you from the hilltops, with small fairy tale towns along the river banks, like St. Goarhausen... is one of those places where cell phone reception is notoriously bad. So if it does turn out to be a deep one cult, or mrs. Lorelei decides to extend her tail-tentacle from below the surface and drag you under when you are taking a selfie under her statue, you can't all for help.

Statue of Loreley

A memorial for a young woman and her ghost, which are claimed to have caused countless deathly shipwrecks.

www.atlasobscura.com

That is a really neat place. We ate at a restaurant right on the river called "Das Rhinegold" and I had curds and whey, and superb local beer, all excellent.

Not all of them are so sinister as the Lorelei though, the Mermaid Sawa on the Vistula is the namesake of Warsaw, where she is seen as the protector of the city, and her legend is quite a sweet story. She's also the main feature of their coat of arms.



The other legends that this excerpt about Scots with tails brings to mind are the various mostly Scandinavian stories about female trolls or forest spirits called Huldra (and by other similar names). The Huldra (also called Skogsra in some contexts) often find humans appealing, and there are many stories about them, some good, some bad. Sometimes they will help with fishing or logging, or a lost child to find their way home. Some stories involve dalliances which occasionally end up happy for some lucky man who may even marry one of these spirits, or they may result in some exhausted, traumatized lad disappearing for several months, only to stumble back into the farm, disheveled and worn out like a used dishrag.



Most of the stories emphasize that it's very rude to make any direct mention of the tail of one of these spirits, and if one does, it's best to always refer to it euphemistically, as in "your slip is showing, madam." Another theme is that when men marry a Huldra, they sometimes forget themselves and become abusive, at which point the Huldra will do something to remind him who he's dealing with, such as taking a red hot horseshoe out of the fire and straitening it out with her bare hands.

I first encountered these fascinating spirits when reading one of the Norse Sagas, I can't remember which one, but it was one of those more prosaic family Sagas where there aren't a lot of supernatural elements, but then suddenly there was a moment where the hero was standing on a pier, and two 'huldra' appeared in the water below and started insulting him, referring to all his setbacks and misdeeds, and they ended up getting into a flyting or a kind of Viking rap battle. I thought the whole thing was so cool it sent me down a rabbit hole for weeks.

Thanks again for your post, I love it. This all also reminds me of the Wildermann or Green man as they call him in the British Isles, but I've typed enough for one post!!