So, Spelljammer that's not 5E...

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Fenris-77

Fenris-77

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D&D fans across the globe have been waiting for a new Spelljammer, and now that we have one I thought it was the right time to talk about fuck a bunch of that 5E shit. Let's take a short foray into the realm of thought experiment here. If you had to pick three things that defined what you wanted out of a Spelljammer game, what would they be. No punking out and picking flying fucking ships either, we'll call that a given. So here's mine:

1. You don't need a spellcaster to start you space car
2. I want it to feel more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Ad Astra
3. I don't want to spend forever sailing through gobs of bloody nothing

What's your list?
 
Adventurers are a cut above the common man; space adventurers are a cut above mortal men.

The aliens are really fucking alien, maaaaan.

Rules for collaborative and procedural generation of custom Spheres, and a default setting that doesn't rely on other, semi-incompatible game lines.
 
1. Integrating existing stuff into the "cosmology", e.g. interstellar origins for some races/monsters
2. Horatio Hornblower in Space meets '90s Tales of the Jedi, so a rather Napoleonic ship of the line setup plus ramshackle "Getaway Specials" all working. I'm okay with spellcaster requirement.
3. Welcome to Earf – make, I dunno, 16th century earth part of the setting
 
Nah, I'd be alright with giant psychic jellyfish in a game. I ran Farflung and that wasn't really all that weird for it. (We had space whales, star-eating lambrey things, all sorts of high space opera) mind you its 'Sci Fi' PbtA but not really close to 'tight science' and PC's can be world ending machines, energy beings and more. Would it work for Spelljammer? IDK.

Converting Bulldogs! (Fate) might work if your a Fate fan, but your own your own setting wise.

Sighs, I really want to get my Space Fae game written. Seelie and Unseelie court in a not super cold war in fantasy space, over who is in charge of things by 'I am the glories and prettiest and powerful ruler' with PC's from both sides trying to make a living as freebooters/traders/privateers. I've got drawings of the GEAR like the one shot glamourguns. But due to my computer crash I've got to find the originals and rescan it. (Plus I need to try my hand at fey spaceships.) Fighting for 'face' and revealing who is which court is done with sword and gun.
 
Solar elves at war with Void elves for the host of souls that hang glittering in the dark between worlds. The same souls that are transformed into glittering crystal by solar storms, and in that form power the ships and weapons of the Fae.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Solar elves at war with Void elves for the host of souls that hang glittering in the dark between worlds. The same souls that are transformed into glittering crystal by solar storms, and in that form power the ships and weapons of the Fae.
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I love that. I always focused on an Imperial Elven Navy/Githyanki/Thri-Kreen cold war in my Spelljammer games, but I don't have a good OGL substitute for the Githyanki and the Thri-Kreen.

Doesn't work quite the same, but in Sagas of the Galaxy Rangers, there's a low-key civil war in eladrin society between the dominant ghaele faction and the renegade draugh; the ghaele attempted to end the conflict by transmuting draugh political prisoners into urukhai. This didn't end well for anybody, and the eladrin government-- such as it is-- is in the doghouse with the Galactic Senate and the galaxy as a whole for destroying dozens of orcish "homeworlds" a couple centuries ago.

The eladrin have been lobbying for full membership in the Commonwealth for millennia, against the implacable opposition of the entire draconic bloc-- whose voting history on non-economic issues is over eighty percent "abstain"-- and now, well, it's going to be a looooooong time before any other members even consider supporting them. They were this close.
 
I haven’t looked at my spelljammer in a while but I’d probably want to add some sword and Planet elements or some ray gun elements. Horacio horn blower + ray guns + mindflayers sounds great.
 
I used Starfinder, though its more let's take fantasy stuff and put it into space stuff rather than 'fantasy space', I wasn't fond of the rules so switched to another rule set. Honestly. I'm thinking on this...
 
Here's a question. One could use a ton of different rule sets for Spelljammer, but there's a basic division that I'm interested in. Do you prefer race plus class or race as class for your SJ base?
 
Fenris-77 said:
Here's a question. One could use a ton of different rule sets for Spelljammer, but there's a basic division that I'm interested in. Do you prefer race plus class or race as class for your SJ base?
Click to expand...

I'm easy. The way I use racial class limits and/or multiple racial classes, it's six of one or half a dozen of the other anyway.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Here's a question. One could use a ton of different rule sets for Spelljammer, but there's a basic division that I'm interested in. Do you prefer race plus class or race as class for your SJ base?
Click to expand...

A B/X or OSE version of Spelljammer with Race-as-Class would be awesome for me.

Hopefully Gavin is thinking of it.
 
To continue beyond 3, sort of, I want lots of discrete adventure-sized locations, not whole planets and planes. Like a town and a dungeon on a blasted but of asteroid, or maybe a small moon, but wvwn that's bigger than I'd really prefer. Some of that can obviously be attained through framing and whatnot, but the really big destinations still kind of give me the pip.
 
Planar Compass might be helpful. It's mostly travelling the Astral Sea tuned for Basic, specifically OSE, and keeps race as class. It comes out in bits that describe a location, monsters, and a few things. There's only 2 issues so far. Issue 1 covers a port town made from a giant hand, a few short adventures there a few new classes, and psionics. Issue 2 has astral ships, astral sailing, monsters, pirates, and an adventure covering travelling inside a giant monster after your ship gets swallowed.

There's not enough material to cover everything you might want but it might have the right flavor.
 
Stan said:
Planar Compass might be helpful. It's mostly travelling the Astral Sea tuned for Basic, specifically OSE, and keeps race as class. It comes out in bits that describe a location, monsters, and a few things. There's only 2 issues so far. Issue 1 covers a port town made from a giant hand, a few short adventures there a few new classes, and psionics. Issue 2 has astral ships, astral sailing, monsters, pirates, and an adventure covering travelling inside a giant monster after your ship gets swallowed.

There's not enough material to cover everything you might want but it might have the right flavor.
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Let me expand, I'm quite happy to do a lot of the adventure content myself, either from scratch or by hacking in modules form other systems. I just don't want to fight against a system that indexes a different kind of navigation/destination mechanic than I'd prefer. Right now I'm considering using DCC with bits of Skycrawl layered on top, or something in that neighborhood. Part of it is getting the right setting elements on place, of course, which is on me not the system.
 
So, how manage the Gith in a race as class environment. I think for DCC i base it off the Elf and settle for Fighter/MU as the default. We'll see how it goes.
 
Hmm. The easy out: use the DCC elf but remove the extra spells, immunities, vulnerabilities, Infrvision and heightened senses. Up the HD to d8. Maybe add a level based addition of a low key magic weapon. Its not a ton of special rules, but I think it works. I might faff about with crit tables as a small buff.
 
So going Githzerai, add in some kind of low key magic resistance. That makes things more interesting.
 
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Now on to the Thri'Keen, which I think I'll handle from the Dwarf base with a little halfling and warrior mixed in.
 
So here's the rough cut:

The Thri'Keen are a little more work, but not much. I'm going to work off the Dwarf base but with the following:

Remove: Sword and Board, Slow, Underground Skills,
Add: Two Weapon Fighting (from the Halfling), Base Leather AC but with no mod and no stacking, limited telepathy, no need for sleep, a small chameleon stealth bonus
 
Fenris-77 said:
So, how manage the Gith in a race as class environment. I think for DCC i base it off the Elf and settle for Fighter/MU as the default. We'll see how it goes.
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Yeah... Fighter/Magic-User, armored spellcaster (up to chain), no ranged weapon proficiency, divination/force/mentalism/dimensionalism maybe abjuration?

I used to have full write-ups for all of the PHB and CSFHB races written up in Player's Option and converted back to OSE, but that was a couple of cloud server migrations ago. Pretty close to their archetypal histories, but I gave different spellcaster races different spell access and made up some alternate racial classes-- like Dwarf Cleric (based on Crusader).

If you want, I could take a few minutes to type up the Cliff's Notes.
 
Dammit Viktor said:
Yeah... Fighter/Magic-User, armored spellcaster (up to chain), no ranged weapon proficiency, divination/force/mentalism/dimensionalism maybe abjuration?

I used to have full write-ups for all of the PHB and CSFHB races written up in Player's Option and converted back to OSE, but that was a couple of cloud server migrations ago. Pretty close to their archetypal histories, but I gave different spellcaster races different spell access and made up some alternate racial classes-- like Dwarf Cleric (based on Crusader).

If you want, I could take a few minutes to type up the Cliff's Notes.
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DCC doesn't really make the distinction between spell families, but yeah, pretty much. I'm always happy to see other peoples write ups too.
 
As a baseline, I always allow humans to multiclass and I kinda waffle between race-as-class and race-and-class with really screwy race/class combinations. I try to avoid taking XP penalties for going over-- but I also have no problem fudging the CP totals or the XP requirements to get things where they need to go.

  • Elf: Built as Ranger/Priest. Restricted armor (natural and elfin chain) and weapons (thief/druid and longbow). Thief abilities (HS/MS, HN, FT). Reduced spellcasting progression. Spell access: Astral, Animal, Plant, Healing, Elements, Sun, Travelers, Weather, Mage: Song.
    • Drow: Also built as Ranger/Priest, similar to elf but add crossbows and backstab. Spell access: Astral, Chaos, Elements, Necromancy. Mage: Shadow, Necromancy, Mentalism.
  • Dwarf: Built as Fighter. d12 HD. Weapon spec. Siege weapons. Thief abilities: (FT/RT, OL, tunneling/sabotage).
    • Dwarf Cleric: Built as Crusader. d10 HD. Warrior THAC0 and weapons. Spell access as Crusader, plus Mage: Artifice.
    • Battlerager: Built as PHBR Barbarian plus Battlerager Kit.
    • Dwarf Sapper: Built as Fighter/Thief. d10 HD. Reduced armor (chain). Siege weapons. Thief abilities as Dwarf, plus HS/MS and backstab.
  • Gnome: Built as Mage/Thief. Thief abilities as Thief, Bardic lore. Spell access: Divination, Illusion, Enchantment, Transmutation, Artifice, Priest: Animal, Plant.
    • Svirfneblin: Druid/Thief, underdark druid kit. Mage: Elemental Earth, Illusion.
  • Halfling: Built as Ranger. No spellcasting, thief abilities, Monk AC.
    • Halfling Sheriff: Built as Druid/Thief, no wild shape, thief abilities (minus OL and FART), Monk AC.
    • Hin Fist: Built as 1e/SB Monk/Thief.
I never got clever with the Complete Book of Humanoids, to my regret.

But Complete Spacefarer's Handbook and... you know, some specials:
  • Thri-Kreen: Built as Ranger, no armor, limited weapons (thri-kreen), no spellcasting. Monk AC, backstab.
    • Pack druid.
    • Xixchil: Mage/Thief. In my head, they have hands. d8 HD. Thief abilities, minus PP. Spell access: Mentalism, Alchemy, Necromancy, Transmutation, Priest: Healing and Necromancy.
  • Lizardman: SJ Lizardmen don't have racial classes. They take classes and multiclasses as a human, with modified abilities.
    • Warrior: Replace armor profiencies with Monk AC.
    • Rogue: Replace armor profiencies with nothing. Lizardman "bards" have spell access like their priests, no bardsong.
    • Priest: Lizardman priests are (PO) Monk/Druid, both academic/contemplative and primal.
    • Mage: Spell access: Elemental (all), Divination, Mentalism (minus charms), Abjuration, Transmutation.
  • Gith:
    • Githyanki: The standard Githyanki archetype is the Gish, as above. I've never converted the other Githyanki classes/kits from Guide to the Astral Plane.
    • Githzerai: The standard Githzerai archetype is the Zerth, built as a (1e) Monk/Mage with proficiency in two-handed swords. Access to Elemental magic because Limbo.
      • The "Githzerai Thief" is actually a Ninja class with bardic spellcasting: Elemental, Mentalism, Illusion.
  • Giff: Fighter, firearm/siege specialization???
  • Hadozee: Ranger, more thief abilities, spellcasting???
I haven't done much of anything with Rastpides, Grommams, Hurwaeti or Dracon. I would do-up Insectare and Scro as "special" variants of elf and orc.
 
I like it! I am also kind of liking the simplicity of race as class, but I haven't made up my mind yet.
 
The more I think about this the more I want to focus on locations and perhaps short exploratory expeditions, and very much not on long voyages. I get that long voyages can be the excuse for all manner of encounters, but I still don't think I want them as a core part of play for the simple fact that, at least in my experience in a wide variety of games, they're fucking boring.

Using gates as the main means of inter-location travel fixes most of this. Stacked on top of that I think I'll use the idea of 'systems' to index groups of locations that are relatively close together with (mostly) known routes between sites. So you could have a blasted asteroid belt, or a collection of small moons, or whatever, but without the need for long voyages across the vast grey of the Astral. I also think I'll lean heavily into the idea of demi-planes, to frame a lot of the destinations. Locations initially created by an act of magic or divine will (much like Ravenloft). This also opens up the possibility of DPs in the Ethereal or (maybe more excitingly) The Dream Lands.
 
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Fenris-77 said:
The more I think about this the more I want to focus on locations and perhaps short exploratory expeditions, and very much not on long voyages. I get that long voyages can be the excuse for all manner of encounters, but I still don't think I want them as a core part of play for the simple fact that, at least in my experience in a wide variety of games, they're fucking boring.
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I've used voyages as simple downtime - you have X days until the next thing, what do you want to do? Cover it in 5 minutes. A few players like the actual exploring, with hints of things on horizons, deciding on course, etc., but I find most players agree with you. After a few, random encounters feel like random filler. The variety of distant exotic locations is the draw.

I mean you could have an existential game with a long voyage but it wouldn't be to most players' taste. "Day 33, still nothing in sight. You've slept poorly again as the first mate snores dreadfully. Are you going to work on your poetry, carve figurines, or plot to kill the first mate?"
 
Stan Stan - yeah, I'm not aiming for Ad Astra done for OSR.

So on a more specifically design topic, I want to write some rules for randomly generating 'systems'. The IP that I have in mind here is the rules in Into the Wyrd and Wild for generating what the author calls 'wilderness dungeons'. So to embiggen the scale a little it might look something like this:

1. Roll for number of locations, probably a number of d6s (either chosen or generated) with the result on the d6 indexing 'size' of the location. These will be plotted by die drop on a large hex base. The locations end up in the hex the die lands in.

2.. Roll or chose a theme. This could be anything, but the exemplars might be things like Jotun Ruins, or Sylvan Fae Paradise, or Mindflayer Slave camp, shit like that. I'll probably match a bunch themes to the elder races I've already written. There will be nested tables here that mostly provide evocative detail.

3. Tack on some nested table action for other details. For each size of location you have a set of rolls that establish type and some evocative detail (so town, dungeon, ruins, pirate lair, whatever) - this will match the overall themes. So you take the theme and use it to fill in the physical nature of the locations.

4. Roll to connect locations - this determines the nature of the connection between locations. It might be clear sailing, or it might by a gyrating asteroid field, or a patch of the astral beset by magical storms. These will determine travel time and types of hazards.

The overall design goal here is to provide the GM with some notion of danger levels and (more importantly) a nice whack of evocative detail they can use to flesh things out.
 
So I just sat down a did a quick brainstorm of groups and factions that might be fun for a Planejammer setting. It became very clear to me after a moment's reflection that 40K is perhaps more formative for me than I realized. Anyway, here's the list:

Ziggurats of Undeath – space mummies! Borg Zombies!

Void Elves – Lurkers in the Dark, Raiders and Slavers

Solar Elves – Militaristic, guardians of the Solar Fire, judgemental and inflexible

The Swarm – Thri’Keen of a sort, living ships, the devourerer

Illithids – Mages and Psions, slavers and weird scientists

The Iron Empire – dwarven fleets, very few, fight an unknown foe in the depths pf the Grey

The Gith – remnants of a once great empire, monks and mages, peripatetic wanderers with secret goals

Nightmare Storms – out of control demiplanes from the Land of Dream, a mad demi-god at their core

They won't all make the cut I suspect. I feel like I need some smaller groups, and maybe less empires and Paragon-level threats. :grin:
 
And now, the magic of reskinning. Lets take the Ziggurats of Undeath. I don't really want squishy fleshy Necrons precisely, so let's change it up a little.

The Immortal Alchemists - a race of ten foot tall albino alchemists and technomancers fixated on achieving immortality. They tend to operate alone, or in small groups - in both cases in command of Death Ziggurats, flying obsidian fortresses of unimaginable antiquity. The Ziggurats are not creations of the Alchemists, but none have ever been seen not in their possession and they are conduits or batteries of immense energy of unknown origin. The Alchemists tap this power to fuel horrific experiments in transformation and life extension on whatever intelligent species they can capture. They do not operate overtly, but tend to prefer operating through cat's paws and spies, with the aim of gathering whatever slaves, sorcery, and alchemetical reagents they need for their current experimental obsession. Each Ziggurat is crewed by the byproducts of the Immortal Alchemists' experiments, predominantly mindless undead seeming automatons, but occasionally beings possessed of intelligence and a terrible hunger.
 
The Devourer – on a distant planet, home to many Thri’Keen, a Hive-Foundry was infected with the essence of an Elder God, Krisshallug, a god of entropy and change. Mutation swept through the hive in days, transforming the native Thri’Keen into unimaginable insectoid monstrosities. The mutants burst forth form the Hive and rampaged across the planet, leaving desert and devastation in their wake. As they moved away from the source of the mutation, the various mutations stabilized into the variegated hive-mind of servitors, warriors, and enormous battle beasts that we call the Devourer. The mutants now roam the astral (and elsewhere) in living ships, ravaging all that they find. The first sign of an approaching swarm is often a rain of spores that quickly begin to mutate the local vegetation.
 
Ineffable Construct Monks – these unimaginably ancient and solitary wanders are rare but can be encountered anywhere from a grimy tavern to the depths of an astral dungeon. They are humanoid in appearance but formed of ebony wood and diamond-hard white protective plates and generally dressed in beautiful but somewhat tattered robes. Each Monk invariably carries a massive Daikatana slung over their back, and a pouch containing writing supplies and a collection of scrolls. Exquisitely polite and immensely learned, they are usually encountered performing some seemingly pointless task like counting grains of sand, drawing every tree in a forest, or reciting poetry to giant mushrooms. They have an uncanny ability to get anywhere they please, and their superlative sword skills and nigh-indestructability allow them to survive where many wouldn’t. So long as an adventurer is polite they probably won’t get cut in half by the first Monk they meet.
 
Nightmare Storms – sometimes deities, demi-gods, and other powerful beings construct abodes in the Land of Dreams, usually as a retreat from fading relevance. Sometimes, those gods retreat completely to the Land of Dreams, their inner life becoming more and more real as they separate from reality. These gods sometimes go mad, and in paroxysms of violent emotion tear their demi-plane out of the Land of Dreams, which sends it tumbling unpredictably across the Astral Plane. These are Nightmare Storms. A Storm might be as small as a farmer’s field, or as large as a small continent. Within the Nightmare reality is bent and warped by whatever emotions and visions have unhinged the god at the center of the Storm. Thus each Storm has a theme, usually something negative like rage, loss, or hopelessness.
 
And the first poke at a home base for my setting...

Badger’s Drift

Several hundred years ago Badger Griffin, famed freebooter captain, retired to a then-unknown asteroid and opened both a shipyard and an Inn called the Crooked Mast. The asteroid now known as Badger’s Drift sits at a nexus of gates and sits on several major navigational routes, which made the shipyard an instant success. The asteroid fragment itself is about ten square and flat kilometers, mostly mud flats and sawgrass other than the town proper. About a hundred years after founding, an eminent alchemist discovered that the introduction of Xorx grubs, who’s diet is primarily heavy metals, to the mud flats could produce a clay that could be kilned into thin and enormously strong ceramic hull plates for Astral Dromonds. The production of armor plating set next to the already busy shipyards made Badger’s Drift into a boom town. The population of the asteroid now sits at about fifteen hundred, buoyed by an ever-changing mix of transient crews, travelers and scholars.

The government of Badger’s Drift, such as it is, consists of three men: the Master Mudder, the Master Shipwright, and an elected Mayor. The first two represent the Ceramics Guild and Shipbuilders Guild respectively, and the last is usually a retired captain of some sort. In practice, there is a fourth player in the politics of Badger’s Drift, the League of Explorers. This group consists of merchants, freebooter captains, navigators, historians and sages who run an informal finishing school for prospective navigators, and who also maintain a somewhat famous collection of Gate coordinates, Astral Rutters, and a host of other expert knowledge. They are housed in a fortress-like building on the outskirts of town and they host a constant stream of visiting scholars and navigators looking for training or to purchase coordinates and rutters. The League has no formal role on governing the Drift, but their input and wishes are held in high esteem.

Badgers Drift houses a contingent of sentient martial constructs, under the control of the council, who serve as law enforcement and militia both. These constructs are free willed, and many are former ship’s crew or mercenaries and their presence is a major factor in the lack of raids or assaults on the asteroid. Between the Guild Bank, and the storehouses of the League of Explorers, Badger’s Drift holds wealth that belies its size, and the protection of both the Construct Militia and the presence of significant numbers of skilled mages at men at arms in the population generally serve to make it a less-than-appetizing target.

The Crooked Mast Inn is the center of life in Badger’s Drift. A charming but ramshackle five-story building, the Inn has been expanded and modified almost constantly for nearly five-hundred years. It presently houses a tavern and storerooms on the main floor, the offices of the Town Council and several board rooms on the second floor, and three floors of rooms above that, ranging in swank from a garret closet to suites fit for visiting royalty. The Inn also maintains its own guard presence, which is a mix of constructs and veteran mercenaries. The taproom of the Inn is justly famous for the rather astonishing collection of trophies and memorabilia that adorn its walls, a practice begun by Badger himself, and carried forth to this day.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Here's a question. One could use a ton of different rule sets for Spelljammer, but there's a basic division that I'm interested in. Do you prefer race plus class or race as class for your SJ base?
Click to expand...

I prefer race plus skills and no class (or maybe skills and profession as ability packages), but if we're going with class, then I prefer race plus class all the way.

I started out playing B/X and I literally didn't like D&D till I got 2e (I started playing in 1990). I kept playing mostly cuz I like the idea of TTRPGs more than the actual system my group was playing.

Granted, you do you, since its your game/thought experiment anyways. :thumbsup:


What I'd want from a Spelljammer game:

1) Elven ships that look like the original setting.

2) A lot of the original races (or stand-ins for them) like Giffs, Scro, Thri Kreen, Lizardmen, etc., plus maybe spacefaring versions of fantasy races.

3) Fantasy space tech that looks/works more like magic items that perform quasi-futuristic functions, like crystal ball star charts, universal translator magic amulets, etc.
 
VisionStorm said:
I prefer race plus skills and no class (or maybe skills and profession as ability packages), but if we're going with class, then I prefer race plus class all the way.

I started out playing B/X and I literally didn't like D&D till I got 2e (I started playing in 1990). I kept playing mostly cuz I like the idea of TTRPGs more than the actual system my group was playing.

Granted, you do you, since its your game/thought experiment anyways. :thumbsup:


What I'd want from a Spelljammer game:

1) Elven ships that look like the original setting.

2) A lot of the original races (or stand-ins for them) like Giffs, Scro, Thri Kreen, Lizardmen, etc., plus maybe spacefaring versions of fantasy races.

3) Fantasy space tech that looks/works more like magic items that perform quasi-futuristic functions, like crystal ball star charts, universal translator magic amulets, etc.
Click to expand...
Im not all the way sold on race as class, but DCC does have a lot to recommend it. Im doing all my setting work agnostically so I don't have to decide right away.
 
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