The 'PF2ER' thread - now that it's out, what do you think?

[Korgoth]

Now that the Pathfinder 2nd Edition 'Revised' pdf is available (well to Paizo subscribers at least / It will be out for everyone on Nov 15th 2023) what do those of you who have it, think of it so far.

• Do you like the changes made? The additions and subtractions, the clarifications?
• Is it worth buying in your opinion?

'Standard' covers for the 2 core books which will be sold via Amazon and Paizo and maybe? FLGS's

'Special' cover editions of the 2 core books available ONLY through your FLGS.

P.S. I know most of us don't have the game yet nor have time to read through and digest it yet, but I wanted to start a thread on the topic anyways to start the discussion ball rolling.


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[Endless Flight]

I was reading the 2E core rulebook last night. Is it a big difference or are they just changes because of the license?

 

[Korgoth]

I was reading the 2E core rulebook last night. Is it a big difference or are they just changes because of the license?

What I've 'heard' from watching PF youtubers is that allot of it was indeed removing any trace of OGL/D&D nomenclature. But it was also a chance for them to streamline the rules where they could, re-organize to better present the rules, and make many small tweaks and balances to the rules after it being out in the wild for several years.

So it's more than just the de-ogl'ing of the PF2E rules.


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[Endless Flight]

I like how they split 2E revised into two books. The PDF for 2E is 642 pages, which makes it intimidating.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I haven't gotten to look at it yet, but from things that have been said, I do like the new changes.

... Also man I love the special flgs only sketch covers.

 

[Korgoth]

I like how they split 2E revised into two books. The PDF for 2E is 642 pages, which makes it intimidating.

I agree it is intimidating to a newbie to TTRPG's. To me as an old salt it doesn't phase me at all, but I think it's a wise move splitting the content back into 2 books.

I haven't gotten to look at it yet, but from things that have been said, I do like the new changes.

... Also man I love the special flgs only sketch covers.

I will definitely be going for the FLGS covers as well. The regular Color Art is to garish for my delicate, old school art sensibilities.


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[CRKrueger]

Those sketch covers are awesome.

 

[Neon]

I'm just laughing thinking about the PF recurring characters.
If you think about all the covers they've been on, the situations they've found themselves in and the monsters they've killed - they've really seen some shit over the years! Lol

 

[UnplayedRanger]

I think it’s still too crunchy for me.

 

[Korgoth]

I think it’s still too crunchy for me.

I hear ya, but I'm also kinda on an OSR'ish application of the PF2E rules crusade as of late.

I like to think of the Ruleset as 'Complex' vs. 'Complicated' if that makes sense. I think the ruleset is very deep and covers allot of circumstances and ground, but in the heat of any moment of game play there isn't a ton of moving parts, at least IMO.

With many of the Optional Rules in place, I think the PF2E engine makes for a great OSR sensibilities/style game system.

u/Thes33 on the r/Pathfinder2e subreddit has some good thoughts on ORS'ifying PF2E
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/109clpx/grittier_osrstyle_pathfinder_2e/
And his shared google doc with his rules
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WSNj2sZty3edXM8Ff0YyA9ke0rOQd5_Z/view​

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[EmperorNorton]

I like to think of the Ruleset as 'Complex' vs. 'Complicated' if that makes sense. I think the ruleset is very deep and covers allot of circumstances and ground, but in the heat of any moment of game play there isn't a ton of moving parts, at least IMO.

I think the thing to me is that while there are a lot of rules, they tend to all make sense once you know the core parts of the rules.

It's honestly probably got similar amounts of rules to 3.x, but feels less complicated because things feel more unified.

 

[thebigh]

How does it differ mechanically from the previous version?

I've basically had three gripes with it:

1) Chargen is a tedious slog, because it takes forever and the core rules were so disorganised I was constantly flicking backwards and forwards like a Choose-your-own-adventure book.

2) Casters are underpowered. Particularly the classes with Vancian magic. It seems like the spellbook is very limited, spell slots very few, and the spells themselves largely useless because anything that can inflict significant damage or a meaningful debuff also gets saving rolls that the tough enemies simply don't ever fail. It's like they "solved" the linear-fighters-quadratic-wizards issue by making the casters logarithmic instead.

3) The RP aspects just seem like a thin veneer scraped over a combat frame. Having a gajillion billion combat options is nice, but I get bored when social aspects are relegated to a single flat skill check. "I roll diplomacy on the mayor." "You succeed. He does what you want."

4) TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEML

 

[EmperorNorton]

How does it differ mechanically from the previous version?

I've basically had three gripes with it:

1) Chargen is a tedious slog, because it takes forever and the core rules were so disorganised I was constantly flicking backwards and forwards like a Choose-your-own-adventure book.

2) Casters are underpowered. Particularly the classes with Vancian magic. It seems like the spellbook is very limited, spell slots very few, and the spells themselves largely useless because anything that can inflict significant damage or a meaningful debuff also gets saving rolls that the tough enemies simply don't ever fail. It's like they "solved" the linear-fighters-quadratic-wizards issue by making the casters logarithmic instead.

3) The RP aspects just seem like a thin veneer scraped over a combat frame. Having a gajillion billion combat options is nice, but I get bored when social aspects are relegated to a single flat skill check. "I roll diplomacy on the mayor." "You succeed. He does what you want."

4) TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEML

This thread is about 2eR versus the original 2e release, so really your response is kind of not relevant to anything anyone is talking about.

 

[thebigh]

This thread is about 2eR versus the original 2e release, so really your response is kind of not relevant to anything anyone is talking about.

I'm asking if anything changed. I'm guessing that's a "no".

 

[Endless Flight]

I'm asking if anything changed. I'm guessing that's a "no".

Changed compared to 1E or 2E?

 

[thebigh]

That'd be 2E, I don't know enough about 1E to form an opinion. I figure rewriting the core rules would have at least given them an opportunity to properly organise it, that purging it of D&D/OGL stuff might allow them to include more social rp aspects, and that they might actually de-nerf the spellcasters.

 

[Imaginos]

The Rules Lawyer Youtube channel has been going over changes.



That’s is just the latest one I saw. Follow the link for more.

 

[James Gillen]

How does it differ mechanically from the previous version?

I've basically had three gripes with it:

1) Chargen is a tedious slog, because it takes forever and the core rules were so disorganised I was constantly flicking backwards and forwards like a Choose-your-own-adventure book.

2) Casters are underpowered. Particularly the classes with Vancian magic. It seems like the spellbook is very limited, spell slots very few, and the spells themselves largely useless because anything that can inflict significant damage or a meaningful debuff also gets saving rolls that the tough enemies simply don't ever fail. It's like they "solved" the linear-fighters-quadratic-wizards issue by making the casters logarithmic instead.

3) The RP aspects just seem like a thin veneer scraped over a combat frame. Having a gajillion billion combat options is nice, but I get bored when social aspects are relegated to a single flat skill check. "I roll diplomacy on the mayor." "You succeed. He does what you want."

4) TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEML

Yeah, I'm not sure if that's different from my opinion of previous 2nd Edition. ;)

jg

 

[Korgoth]

How does it differ mechanically from the previous version?

I've basically had three gripes with it:

1) Chargen is a tedious slog, because it takes forever and the core rules were so disorganised I was constantly flicking backwards and forwards like a Choose-your-own-adventure book.

4) TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEML TEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEMLTEML

RE: 1) I 'thought (and had read)' that one of the goals of the 'Revised' edition was a better organization of the Character Generation content?

RE: 4) whatsa 'TEML' ?

* Just to clarify, @thebligh are these your thoughts on the now previous PF2E edition, or are they your thoughts upon reading through the PF2ER (Revised) edition?


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[sureshot]

This thread is about 2eR versus the original 2e release, so really your response is kind of not relevant to anything anyone is talking about.

How so? The OP asked a question and other posters are responding to the question. Not sure what your issue is with the Bigsigh post is.

Not every thing said about the Remaster has to be by default positive.

 

[Korgoth]

The Rules Lawyer Youtube channel has been going over changes.



That’s is just the latest one I saw. Follow the link for more.

'The Rules Lawyer' is one of my go to guys for PF2E mechanics info.


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[sureshot]

Teml is an holdover from Pathfinder 2E where one could be trained master and legendary say in a skill forgot what E stands for and I am not home at the moment.

 

[Korgoth]

How do? The OP asked a question and other posters are responding to the question. Not sure what your issue is with the Bigsigh post is.

Not every thing said about the Remaster has to be by default positive.

I, personally at least am looking to hear The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly opinions of those who've read the Revised edition.

 

[Korgoth]

Teml is an holdover from Pathfinder 2E where one could be trained master and legendary say in a skill forgot what E stands for and I am not home at the moment.

Ah, thank you for the explanation.

I own the core of the PF2E books but I'm by no means an expert on the rules (only bought them in the past few months), so I'm still an newb rules/terminology wise.


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[Endless Flight]

Trained-Expert-Master-Legendary (+2/+4/+6/+8 plus level)

 

[sureshot]

Ah, thank you for the explanation.

I own the core of the PF2E books but I'm by no means an expert on the rules (only bought them in the past few months), so I'm still an newb rules/terminology wise.


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Thanks Expert was the one I was not remembering.

 

[EmperorNorton]

How so? The OP asked a question and other posters are responding to the question. Not sure what your issue is with the Bigsigh post is.

Not every thing said about the Remaster has to be by default positive.

I somewhat misread his post, thought he was just giving his opinion on PF2e vs PF1e, rather than asking if any of the things he mentioned changed. Was on me for just reading it wrong.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Also, I wouldn't say that casters are underpowered at all. It only feels that way because 3.x-5e D&D and PF1e all had massively overpowered casters, and PF2e pulls them in a bit.

They are still top tier at area of effect damage, buffs, debuffs, etc. They just can't end fights in one spell anymore. Hell, just a bard using cantrips to give everyone else +1 to hit is a HUGE deal with the way crits work in PF2e, and is one of the best at will abilities in the game.

 

[Exploderwizard]

Wow! I am way too old to learn a new system that is over 600 pages. It sounds like something I would play if someone else handled the rules. If I played for a while and liked it then I might be tempted to read the books.

 

[Endless Flight]

I think the book is just dense. It doesn’t seem too hard to comprehend the actual rules. The beginner boxes for the Paizo games have been great. I think this Core split will be a good thing.

 

[Endless Flight]

Welcome to the Pub Exploderwizard.

 

[thebigh]

Hello and welcome to the Pub!

 

[Thray]

My group has been playing for ~3 years. The changes are pretty minor overall. The fundamental math of the game is the same. There are dozens of small errata, but only a few bits I think will affect my games at all:

1. Focus points became easier to recover, which reduces attrition a bit, though the overall impact is smaller than a lot of people first thought it would be.
2. Warpriests became significantly better (where "significantly" means roughly 5%, because PF2e is so tightly balanced)
3. Cantrips became less ability dependent, making them better for non-primary casters

That's pretty much it. Out of everything else I've read, nothing has a significant impact on the game – it's mostly errata/getting away from the OGL.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

Have you ever seen a YouTube video title, and just laugh and laugh and laugh?

 

[SirFrog]

I’ve been in a PF2E campaign for a year now. I still dislike the system and don’t see anything in the Revised Rules that changes my opinion on the system. The action economy is the best part of the system, but it is heavily linked to the abhorrent tag system to make it work

 

[AsenRG]

I’ve been in a PF2E campaign for a year now. I still dislike the system and don’t see anything in the Revised Rules that changes my opinion on the system. The action economy is the best part of the system, but it is heavily linked to the abhorrent tag system to make it work

What is abhorent about the tag system? Honest question, my only experience with PF2e is as a player, and it seems to work rather smoothly...though a lot of that is our GM using automated charsheets, IMO.

 

[Exploderwizard]

In complete honest ignorance I ask-what is a TAG system and what does it do for the game?

 

[SirFrog]

What is abhorent about the tag system? Honest question, my only experience with PF2e is as a player, and it seems to work rather smoothly...though a lot of that is our GM using automated charsheets, IMO.

The sheer enormity of the tags makes keeping track of them a nightmare. If you’re not using a VTT, it becomes tedious quickly.

 

[SirFrog]

In complete honest ignorance I ask-what is a TAG system and what does it do for the game?

It is their method of keeping track of everything, from bonuses to statuses to character traits

 

[EmperorNorton]

I'm pretty sure that he is talking about the traits stuff, which is just keywords. Like, a fire spell would have a "fire" trait on it. And any ability that interacts with fire spells, you just have to look at the spells keywords and go "yep, that is a fire spell". Same as you look at a feat and it has the Human and Racial traits. Now you know it is a Human Racial feat and anything that interacts with Human Racial feats is clearly defined what it interacts with.

There are keywords that have rules attached, but for the most part I don't find it that big of a deal. Weapon and Armor traits are the most common examples. Like "Propulsive" keyword means that it is a weapon like a composite bow that uses your strength to fire it, so you can add half your strength mod to damage with it. Or the Bulwark armor keyword, which is on some really heavy armors like Full Plate that means you get +3 to reflex saves to avoid damaging effects (so like, Fireball). There are also things like Flourish traits for types of attacks (meaning that it can only be done once per turn).

For the most part though, most traits are just a word to be referenced by other rules, not rules in and of themselves. And when they aren't, they are instead just shortcut definitions like Magic Keywords.

There are a few that I think are problematic though, usually when they start nesting (where having one trait means it also another trait automatically, but it isn't listed), but I don't find those that common.