Things I like in Modern Design (let's have a friendly chat about it)

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TristramEvans said:
Maybe? Tell me about Beyond the Wall...does it ditch the narrative elements and/or GM-limiting Move structure of PbtA?
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It's an OSR game for YA fantasy where each archetype gets a lifepath/playbook hybrid. But the rest, barring some possibly new school GM advice is what you'd expect from OSR games.
Narrative/dissociated HP included, alas:shade:.
 
AsenRG said:
"Reaching critical mass" is what I was going to base my answer on, given that Pendragon has never had a great popularity AFAICT. But as I said, popularity is hard to determine.


You are probably right, but then what would we discuss about:tongue:?

Like Beyond the Wall?
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I was going to mention BtW as well for the way it uses lifepath chargen playbooks for flavourful characters tied to the setting and each other and the scenario playbooks for quick, short prep play.

I'm a bit surprised the scenario and chargen playbooks haven't been more widely copied in the OSR as they are so ingenious and clever.
 
What is a playbook? Is it something game specific or a fancy term for something most gamers would already be familiar with?
 
Winterblight said:
What is a playbook? Is it something game specific or a fancy term for something most gamers would already be familiar with?
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Imagine if in say, D&D, your character class and character sheet were actually just one thing. All the possible abilities for your class are on your sheet, and you just mark a bubble next to them when you level to indicate you have that ability (and in most games you use them in, you don't take abilities in order, you get to choose an ability ever so often from the list). Also it will include specific rules for your character type. Etc etc.

It can have more than that, but that is the basics of a playbook.
 
hawkeyefan said:
Based on the things you listed that you like, you probably want to check FitD out.
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The amount of structure they have kind of pushed me away. It feels too rigid for me. I'm pretty free-form, and I don't like when the rules force me to play out something. Eventually, I'll get around to buying scum and villainy though.
 
For me...
1) Playbooks. (As has been discussed)
2) Escalation of conflict explicitly facilitated in the resolution mechanic of the system. This is one thing that comes about as result of "success at a cost" thing for a while now, but seems to be more of an explicit upshot of PbtA and (moreso) Harper-esque designs like Blades/FitD. My first real exposure to it was Harper's Danger Patrol beta, which came out just outside of 10 years ago.
 
There's also through sunken lands

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By the same people as Beyond the Wall, but no YA element.
 
AsenRG said:
"Reaching critical mass" is what I was going to base my answer on, given that Pendragon has never had a great popularity AFAICT. But as I said, popularity is hard to determine.
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It is a celebrated game, nevertheless. Anyway, critical mass for me would be where Call of Cthulhu adopted the 'roll high but under’ mechanism rather than the less intuitive full/half/fifth mechanism it currently uses. Don’t think it will happen for a good while yet though.
 
Not really playbooks, but I like how Mutant Y0 does character types, with motivations and bonds tying them to the setting and other characters from the get-go. The presence of the same NPCs in different playbooks, under different perpectives (one player has "X saved my life" and another has "X wronged me in the past, and I will get my revenge") is really ingenious IMO.
 
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silva said:
Not really playbooks, but I like how Mutant Y0 does character types, with motivations and bonds tying them to the setting and other characters from the get-go. The presence of same the NPCs in different playbooks, in negative and positive relations (one player has "X saved my life" and another has "X wronged me in the past, and I will get my revenge") is really ingenious IMO.
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Mutant Zero's system for improving The Ark is also really good, a great way to shift the game away from murderhobing which a post-apocalyptic game could so easily fall into.

Instead MYZ focuses about the importance of community and interdependence to survive.

A great idea that can apply to a lot of games beyond post-apoc.

I believe the designer of Hit the Streets: Defend the Block mentioned it as an influence on his approach to the street level superhero game.

On a slightly similar line is how Heat as a mechanic to model the growing pressure of the police and rival gangs is used in the underrated The 'Hood.
 
I like a lot what's already been mentioned in this thread.

Another thing that's new (at least to me) that I like is the resource management that takes a middle-ground approach. For example, having ammo, food & water, general adventuring supplies abstracted as a polyhedral dice that is checked occasionally and reduced when you roll a one. Then, repair/crafting/negotiating skills become mechanically meaningful in restoring the resources.

It allows for resource management without all the gory details.
 
Actually, the main innovation that we have discussed before which I picked up from the Marvel Heroic RPG, was the nominated initiative rounds - where instead of rolling initiative, each player plays out their ‘frame’ and then nominates the next player of their choice to go next. Along with the rule to take away rolls from the GM, this has actually been interesting to apply to other games (like Vampire, which has something similar in a way).
 
Trippy said:
It is a celebrated game, nevertheless. Anyway, critical mass for me would be where Call of Cthulhu adopted the 'roll high but under’ mechanism rather than the less intuitive full/half/fifth mechanism it currently uses. Don’t think it will happen for a good while yet though.
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I don't see it happening with CoC while it's with nuChaosium. But that might be just me:thumbsup:.
Doesn't mean it's not getting popular in the d100 community, though. I recently read a pseudo-Bronze age game where it was used, and I didn't even remember to include it.
 
Voros said:
I was going to mention BtW as well for the way it uses lifepath chargen playbooks for flavourful characters tied to the setting and each other and the scenario playbooks for quick, short prep play.

I'm a bit surprised the scenario and chargen playbooks haven't been more widely copied in the OSR as they are so ingenious and clever.
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Well, I was thinking of using it for a personal project, but I'm not sure whether it's part of their IP:shade:.
 
AsenRG said:
I don't see it happening with CoC while it's with nuChaosium. But that might be just me:thumbsup:.
Doesn't mean it's not getting popular in the d100 community, though. I recently read a pseudo-Bronze age game where it was used, and I didn't even remember to include it.
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Well, put it this way: if Arc Dream ever decided to expand it’s Delta Green line to include a historical supplemental setting in the 1920s, Chaosium would be sweating...
 
Trippy said:
Well, put it this way: if Arc Dream ever decided to expand it’s Delta Green line to include a historical supplemental setting in the 1920s, Chaosium would be sweating...
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I'd love to see that, since I like Delta Green's rules:grin:!
 
The game I've read recently that really seemed like a product of modern design was Vagabonds of Dyfed. The teleos of the game is Swords and Sorcery OSR-style play, and it does manage to be broadly compatible with most OSR product. It's a classeless game that uses a list of abilities and skill type stuff to build concept rather than fixed templates, which is neat. The resolution mechanic is the standard 2d6 PbtA, but the game also builds in a lot of systems and ideas from FitD design as well. There's nothing brand new in it, except for the combination of things I haven't seen all in the same game before.
 
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xanther said:
En Garde' is set in the musketeer time of France, IIRC (not sure if can dig up my copy from way back) it has an kind of abstract action system where you are vying more for social rank (getter into better clubs, literally) and getting mentioned in dispatches was a big thing, kind of like going viral. :smile: A really fun little game, like one little 64 page booklet or so, again IIRC.
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I made a character for it during the January challenge. If you have any questions I have my copy fairly handy. But yeah it's the characters goal to move up the social ladder.
 
I'm fond of the abstraction trend (slots for encumbrance, shorter skill lists, etc.), "fail forward", and mechanics that avoid counting a million different little modifiers. I also like the trends of creating characters with story hooks and connections to other characters built in.

I also like some of the new layout trends: Old School Essentials, Mothership, Mork Borg that can say a lot in a little space and are easy to reference.
 
Jon_45 said:
I'm fond of the abstraction trend (slots for encumbrance, shorter skill lists, etc.), "fail forward", and mechanics that avoid counting a million different little modifiers. I also like the trends of creating characters with story hooks and connections to other characters built in.

I also like some of the new layout trends: Old School Essentials, Mothership, Mork Borg that can say a lot in a little space and are easy to reference.
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Heh thanks you nailed it with this post and saved me a lot of trouble by summing up my favorite modern trends in gaming. All of these improvements are applicable across many systems and genres.

What I don't understand is why people divide themselves into old school and new school camps like they were political parties or rappers. The obvious and sensible solution is to use the best of both!
 
Without denying that there are some genuinely incompatible features between eras, when it comes to game mechanics, I'm a syncretist.
 
Brock Savage said:
Heh thanks you nailed it with this post and saved me a lot of trouble by summing up my favorite modern trends in gaming. All of these improvements are applicable across many systems and genres.

What I don't understand is why people divide themselves into old school and new school camps like they were political parties or rappers. The obvious and sensible solution is to use the best of both!
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Indeed, and agree.

And it is not like there was one old school game...unless people mean old school = D&D you started with; even then there very, very much was not one way to play under OD&D. To me old school includes pretty much per-1980, the hobby really only being in existence since 1976 (though yes D&D first came out in 1974).

So for me, there is play style...many styles of play back in the day....do not believe that one group gets to take their style and appropriate the moniker "old school" to provide it with some indicia of authority or origin; if they mean Gygaxian D&D say that, this is not the same as Arneson D&D, or the way many people played OD&D....at least in my direct real time experience from 1976 on. But hey, I still think of old war gamers that hated D&D when I hear the term grognard.

Then there are mechanics, and on mechanics I welcome ones that help create the style of play experience I crave, which is decidedly old school and have found can be better effectuated with many newer mechanics.
 
Something I forgot to mention about Vagabonds that I also thought was very cool is that the game doesn't have stats for the characters. Each character has a list of traits that act as tags, the sum of +/- tags give you the aptitude for a given roll. I like it because the whole focus of char gen is on who the character is, plus because there is no stat rolling, there's also a nice even playing field and no chance you can't focus in on the concept you want to run with. Combined with the absence of classes the system produces some very flavorful characters - everything about the character is a player decision.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Something I forgot to mention about Vagabonds that I also thought was very cool is that the game doesn't have stats for the characters. Each character has a list of traits that act as tags, the sum of +/- tags give you the aptitude for a given roll. I like it because the whole focus of char gen is on who the character is, plus because there is no stat rolling, there's also a nice even playing field and no chance you can't focus in on the concept you want to run with. Combined with the absence of classes the system produces some very flavorful characters - everything about the character is a player decision.
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Is the premise based on Welsh myth?
 
TristramEvans said:
Is the premise based on Welsh myth?
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No, although I had that same thought the first time I read the title. The basic feel is a lovely portmanteau of OSR play with that grimy, brutal, WHFRP feel, topped off with a soupcon of low magic swords-and-sorcery sensibility. The game doesn't have a built in setting btw. I think I could run it as-is for WHFRP though, although I'm only on my second read-thru, so that's just my first impression. The char gen is very diagetic though, so given the right setting (like the Old World) I'm pretty confident of that reading. One of the things that really struck me about the game is how well it would lend itself to pretty much any appropriate setting, mostly because of how baked-in character experiences and background are to how a given PC functions mechanically.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Something I forgot to mention about Vagabonds that I also thought was very cool is that the game doesn't have stats for the characters. Each character has a list of traits that act as tags, the sum of +/- tags give you the aptitude for a given roll. I like it because the whole focus of char gen is on who the character is, plus because there is no stat rolling, there's also a nice even playing field and no chance you can't focus in on the concept you want to run with. Combined with the absence of classes the system produces some very flavorful characters - everything about the character is a player decision.
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Although every single roll by every single character becomes a conversation/negotiation with the GM about which of your “traits in the form of phrases” apply in this circumstance.
 
CRKrueger said:
Although every single roll by every single character becomes a conversation/negotiation with the GM about which of your “traits in the form of phrases” apply in this circumstance.
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I really doubt that's how it works in practice, although I can certainly see that being part of the learning curve. When you look at the actual traits, which are all very character indexed, by which I mean background and motivation, it's pretty straightforward. Also, because the range there is -3 to +3 it's also pretty easy to eyeball on the fly. It's not just a list of traits either btw, each one is defined as part of character generation - everyone starts with: approach to conflict, goal (cause or ethos), gimmick, background, foreground, and a weakness. It's more intuitive than it sounds, IMO anyway, and despite what you might think, I am somewhat leery of tags for the exact reason you mention.
 
Also, apropos of nothing in particular, I have to like any game that has an ability called Corpsegate...

You can cast a profane, visceral ritual that allows you to teleport between two corpses. The corpses must be about the same size as your body or larger than it, and fresh enough to still contain blood and organs. The two corpses must be related by blood in some way, although certain magical connections might be strong enough. They can be any distance apart, but must be on the same plane and not protected by a magical ward. They can belong to any species. Upon completing the ritual, step “through” the entry corpse, and roll as normal.

Wheeee! Fun for the whole family.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Also, apropos of nothing in particular, I have to like any game that has an ability called Corpsegate...

You can cast a profane, visceral ritual that allows you to teleport between two corpses. The corpses must be about the same size as your body or larger than it, and fresh enough to still contain blood and organs. The two corpses must be related by blood in some way, although certain magical connections might be strong enough. They can be any distance apart, but must be on the same plane and not protected by a magical ward. They can belong to any species. Upon completing the ritual, step “through” the entry corpse, and roll as normal.
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Dude that is totally metal and I am stealing it for my combined fantasy settings. A perfect ritual for a daemonic cultist or Lovecraftian sorcerer. I really enjoy tempting PCs with great power at a terrible cost. To their credit they never take the bait but I think it helps reinforce a cosmic horror theme or two.
 
Lady Blackbird also had playbooks - the first I saw it in but probably not the first. It's also free.

Simple but useful, I like the Journey rules in Adventures in Middle Earth. The basic idea is for situations where the characters have to travel to a location to get the adventure started, there are tables to set the scene and offer a few key encounters that take into account player abilities and the toughness of the travel. It's quicker than detailed movement but has more effect than totally skipping over the travel. Players get to use their abilities, and outcomes affect their condition upon arriving at the adventure site but things are compressed enough that those not into wilderness adventures don't grow bored. It's certainly not the only way to go but it's nice thing to add to your arsenal of options and is fairly easy to adapt.
 
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Playbooks put me off of Blades in the Dark (as did the whole player actions thing), but I loved that people were trying new stuff and more consideration was being given to how the rules impact on the game.
I think my favourite aspect of modern design is recognising that RPG's are a group effort and having players build that group and their connections from the ground up. Smallville made it a core part of the game, V5 uses it to build your coterie and my own favourite, Esoterica, makes people think about their connections and relationships before they gang up to meet in a tavern.
 
CRKrueger said:
Although every single roll by every single character becomes a conversation/negotiation with the GM about which of your “traits in the form of phrases” apply in this circumstance.
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Haven't played Vagabonds but in practice, this doesn't really happen in most games with open traits - players mostly suggest obviously applicable traits and ignore blatantly inapplicable ones on their own, without anyone needing to call bullshit. There may occasionally be some discussion about edge cases, but you can reduce that by discussing traits in detail before you start playing, and over time and play and getting to know the characters the definitions firm up on their own anyway.

If you look at an example of play from a rulebook it will probably go into more detail, but that's because it is the rulebook and acting as a teaching aid; the conversations and thought processes get internalised about as quickly as "which skill should I use" in games with closed trait lists (eg. skills).
 
Brock Savage said:
Dude that is totally metal and I am stealing it for my combined fantasy settings. A perfect ritual for a daemonic cultist or Lovecraftian sorcerer. I really enjoy tempting PCs with great power at a terrible cost. To their credit they never take the bait but I think it helps reinforce a cosmic horror theme or two.
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I should mentioned that Corpsegate is from the Vagabond's Cyclopedia, a rules expansion for the basic game.
 
I'm pretty old school, so not many modern innovations appeal to me (especially as many aren't really as innovative as people who haven't been playing since the start of the hobby believe). However, one modern invention I use is the Usage Die from The Black Hack. I tried it as intended for as a way to see when a specific group item (like arrows) runs out. I found it took as much or more effort to use as simply tracking the number left (as all it did was substitute tracking the current die size for each item). I dropped it for that, but use it in a more useful (for me, at least) way: to determine when variable length effects on a PC end.

For example, let's say a PC is paralyzed by a ghoul. Before usage die, I'd have to either tell the player the number of rounds their character was paralyzed for or track it myself and remember to tell the player when it expires. The first gives the player too much info while the second gives too little info and adds to my GM tracking load. Now I have set ghoul paralyzation as a D6 effect. I give the player a d6 and every time his turn comes around, the player rolls the D6. On a roll of 1 or 2 the die degrades to a D4. When the player rolls a 1 or a 2 on the D4 the paralyzation ends and the character can do something. When the die degrades to a D4, the paralyzation is obviously wearing off and the character can do things like twitch a finger or move their eyes slightly. This gives the player some info, keeps me from having to track the timing, and gives the player something to do each round.
 
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