Vampire nth Ed

[SeaJay]

Which edition of Vampire, in your opinion, has the best implementation of rules? Can choose from Masquerade or Requiem.

I'm considering getting back into the Vampire scene but not sure which to plumb for.

Also, am I right in thinking one of the editions did away with the whole 'Caine' back story?

 

[SeaJay]

It's cool, I now have the info I need

 

[Simlasa]

What did you decide?

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[Trippy]

5th Edition.

The contributions made by effectively outside sources (Ken Hite, etc) had led to an honest appraisal of rules. This has meant that the rules fully represent the type of story outlined in the text of the game, namely that you are playing a monster first and foremost, battling to retain their Humanity against the "Hunger" of the "Beast" within. The various political machinations and grouping of the characters make so much more thematic sense when this aspect of being a Vampire is fully established.

While this has caused some consternation from established fans of other editions who used the rules to play the game in their own way (somewhat disparagingly referred to as "superheroes with fangs"), for me it's the closest ruleset to the remit of what the 1st edition of the game originally set out to do. Beyond this, other systems of play are much more polished and slick, and there is a greater facility towards playing diceless also (and towards Live Action, should you wish).

So, if you are collector, certainly look out for a copy of 1st edition. If you are new to the game, the most recent 5th edition is the best.

 

[Séadna]

Masquerade 5E or GURPS Masquerade in my opinion.

 

[SeaJay]

Yep, 5ed would seem to be the best as developers would have learned more about what works and what doesn't.

Thanks all for the info.

 

[Voros]

I’m only really familiar with 1E and 5E and as other have said 5E not only seems to best, most streamlined implementation but also the most flexible with a range from lighter to crunchier options.

 

[The Butcher]

That was crazy good. To think of everything that could have been.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Both 5e and Requiem are solid and iron out some of the mechanical kinks, so I'd go with whichever one has the more appealing setting.

 

[Doc Sammy]

Which edition of Vampire, in your opinion, has the best implementation of rules? Can choose from Masquerade or Requiem.

I'm considering getting back into the Vampire scene but not sure which to plumb for.

Also, am I right in thinking one of the editions did away with the whole 'Caine' back story?

Either 20th Anniversary Edition for Masquerade or First Edition for Requiem.

I'd also recommend a copy of Vampire 1E and Chicago by Night 1E/Chicago Chronicles Volume 1 for the best iteration of the Masquerade setting. Avoid 5th Edition like the plague.

Yep, 5ed would seem to be the best as developers would have learned more about what works and what doesn't.

Thanks all for the info.

5th Edition is terrible in my opinion, as it is overburdened with metaplot and the setting of Vampire 5E is terrible in my opinion. The rules and text force you to play in a certain very specific style and the text chides you if you want to deviate from that in any way.

There's also the real world political baggage attached to V5, but this isn't the time or place to open that particular can of worms...

Your best bet is to get either Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition or Requiem First Edition.

 

[Trippy]

…..there is always one…...

 

[TristramEvans]

…..there is always one…...

 

[Doc Sammy]

…..there is always one…...

You can't say that 5E isn't a divisive edition of Vampire. A lot of people hated it after it came out, but the ones who do love it (such as you) love it a lot. Nothing wrong with that.

Requiem had a somewhat similar polarized reception upon release, and before you mention the large sales figures that V5 got on release, Requiem also sold like hotcakes during its first year or so before the fans turned on it and it went down as a failure in the eyes of the hobby.

Keep in mind that I like Requiem a lot and that's the game that got me into White Wolf, so I'm not trying to diss Requiem or even V5.

If you're looking for a very specific type of game, then V5 is perfect for it. Although if you want an edition that is more versatile and can support a wide variety of chronicles, then your best bets are either V20 or Requiem 1E, depending on which setting you prefer.

GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade is also awesome.

 

[Trippy]

You can't say that 5E isn't a divisive edition of Vampire.

I can say that your view is that Vampire should be more like "BESM", played to the theme of "Happy Days", and that you weren't born when Vampire 1st edition was released. I'll leave it for others to make their own minds up.

I'd also say that it has been disclosed by both Rich Thomas and others, that neither Vampire Revised (3rd edition) and Vampire Requiem sold as much as they hoped. That said, I'm not really interested in bashing previous editions, beyond pointing out that V5 addresses a number of technical issues and is an oustanding piece of work that reflects Mark Rein-Hagen's original 1st edition vision of the setting and gameplay. He was a major credited contributer to V5.

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[tenbones]

I ran and played 1e./2e/Revised/Requiem for many years.

Cant' speak for GURPS or 5e.

I like the mechanics of Requiem. I like the setting of 1e.

 

[Doc Sammy]

I can say that your view is that Vampire should be more like "BESM", played to the theme of "Happy Days", and that you weren't born when Vampire 1st edition was released. I'll leave it for others to make their own minds up.

I'd also say that it has been disclosed by both Rich Thomas and others, that neither Vampire Revised (3rd edition) and Vampire Requiem sold as much as they hoped. That said, I'm not really interested in bashing previous editions, beyond pointing out that V5 addresses a number of technical issues and is an oustanding piece of work that reflects Mark Rein-Hagen's original 1st edition vision of the setting and gameplay. He was a major credited contributer to V5.

*rolls eyes*

Goths and Punks Fuck Off!



*takes a shot of Jameson*

Now that we got that out of the way, let's get back to the topic at hand...

In all seriousness, I'd recommend Masquerade 1E (either the original rules or the setting with V20's rules) or Requiem 1E overall.

Personally, I feel that V5 is too wrecked by overbearing built-in metaplot changes, baffling mechanical changes, and pretentious stuffy pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

But that's my opinion and feel free to disagree with me on that one.

I'm also inclined to agree with tenbones on Masquerade 1E having the best setting (V5 has the worst) and Requiem 1E having the best mechanics and a great setting of its own as well.

Requiem 2E sucks due to both the setting changes and the complicated and unnecessary mechanical changes, and 1E has a lot more materials to support it (and the 1E New World of Darkness games are a lot easier to do crossovers with, unlike Classic World of Darkness or the Chronicles of Darkness)

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

You can't say that 5E isn't a divisive edition of Vampire. A lot of people hated it after it came out, but the ones who do love it (such as you) love it a lot. Nothing wrong with that.

That's fair, but when people are looking at running or playing Vampire it's probably also useful if you make clear if that's not where you're coming from. (Which, unless things have changed, is the case with you).

That's especially crucial if someone's asking how the mechanics play on the table. If your enagement with Vampire is about whether or not you enjoy reading the canon, you simply don't have the experience to answer that question. It's like me trying to tell someone how to play guitar on the grounds I like listening to music.

 

[Doc Sammy]

That's fair, but when people are looking at running or playing Vampire it's probably also useful if you make clear if that's not where you're coming from. (Which, unless things have changed, is the case with you).

That's especially crucial if someone's asking how the mechanics play on the table. If your enagement with Vampire is about whether or not you enjoy reading the canon, you simply don't have the experience to answer that question. It's like me trying to tell someone how to play guitar on the grounds I like listening to music.

Fair point, but there is an important gameplay consideration to consider with V5 that I should emphasize.

Any and all setting changes aside, I do know that V5 had drastically altered gameplay mechanics similar to those of Requiem 2E. And in all honesty, Requiem 2E's mechanics were pretty bad and needlessly over-complicated

V5 plays very differently from 1E, 2E, Revised, or 20th Anniversary Edition

 

[Voros]

Fair point, but there is an important gameplay consideration to consider with V5 that I should emphasize.

Any and all setting changes aside, I do know that V5 had drastically altered gameplay mechanics similar to those of Requiem 2E. And in all honesty, Requiem 2E's mechanics were pretty bad and needlessly over-complicated

V5 plays very differently from 1E, 2E, Revised, or 20th Anniversary Edition

So does this mean you’ve actually read 5E now?

As someone who read 1E when it came out I didn’t notice any metaplot being enforced via the rules in 5E, one could easily skip the setting material at the beginning and end of the book and still have a full game.

Hunger dice do emphasize that vampires are monsters, but I personally can’t imagine any other way to play them. If one wanted a CW version of vampires there are other excellent games like Urban Shadows for that kind of lighter urban fantasy play.

 

[tenbones]

I'm personally interested in the mechanics I've heard about 5e. I've never adhered to the metaplot of any game - my players tend to ruin that kind of stuff pretty easy. But if the elements work with what I'm doing I can ignore what I don't like.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

The metaplot's probably easier to ignore than it was in earlier editions. Mostly because it's not being enforced mechanically in the same way. (Although it's obviously early days so that could change).

 

[Trippy]

*rolls eyes*

Goths and Punks Fuck Off!

Considering that it was Vampire 1st edition that basically coined the term ‘Gothic-Punk’ as the basis for its setting, your statement here tells us all what your understanding of the game is. It’s a non-sensical view.

The setting of 1e, as penned by Mark Rein-Hagen, is precisely what is being supported by the mechanics and design brief of 5e. He was a credited contributor to both (he wasn’t to VRev or V20). It is a point of fact, not opinion, that the setting and design of V5 is directly based on the vision of the original creator of the 1e.

The ‘meta plot’ aspects of V5 are also pretty much ephemeral too, as others have pointed out - they are not the central point of gameplay (as they were in other editions of the game). You can play 5e with the core book alone and never make reference to any ‘meta plot’ consideration.

 

[Séadna]

Personally, I feel that V5 is too wrecked by overbearing built-in metaplot changes, baffling mechanical changes, and pretentious stuffy pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

The metaplot in V5 is confined to a small intro section and a bit at the end. Most of the book is more concerned with being a sort of a general Gothic/Anne Rice vampire with the Masquerade clans thrown in. More of the book deals with the night to night stuff, humans, surviving. It's focused on city life. Very little metaplot I thought.

V5 plays very differently from 1E, 2E, Revised, or 20th Anniversary Edition

It's different in the sense that it's rules light and somebody actually attempted to encode the genre conceits in mechanics. The other editions mechanically are often oddly designed rules heavy games that say "forget the rules".

Have you actually read the book? Genuine question.

 

[Doc Sammy]

Considering that it was Vampire 1st edition that basically coined the term ‘Gothic-Punk’ as the basis for its setting, your statement here tells us all what your understanding of the game is. It’s a non-sensical view.

The setting of 1e, as penned by Mark Rein-Hagen, is precisely what is being supported by the mechanics and design brief of 5e. He was a credited contributor to both (he wasn’t to VRev or V20). It is a point of fact, not opinion, that the setting and design of V5 is directly based on the vision of the original creator of the 1e.

The ‘meta plot’ aspects of V5 are also pretty much ephemeral too, as others have pointed out - they are not the central point of gameplay (as they were in other editions of the game). You can play 5e with the core book alone and never make reference to any ‘meta plot’ consideration.

Unless you want to play a Ravnos character (my favorite of the clans)

It's one thing to play a Gangrel or Brujah who's in the Camarilla. That metaplot mistake can be undone by invoking Rule Zero. But others are mechanically enforced simply by V5 enforcing and upholding that awful metaplot.

Also, Hunger Dice are terrible, unless you are trying to play in a very specific way (and if you are, then I say go for it!)

Remember that 1E only used words like "Gothic-Punk" and "Personal Horror" as marketing gimmicks for the time. The actual books and modules from 1E and early 2E weren't really all about pretentious wangst or anything like that. Honestly, 1E lends itself better to "Trenchcoats & Katanas/Supers With Fangs" than it does to stuffy personal horror.

That being said, 1E can support both styles, while V5 only supports the latter both via the default setting and more importantly. through mechanics such as Hunger Dice.

I never understood the rabid irrational hatred that the White Wolf purists had for anything remotely related to "Supers With Fangs" or "Trenchcoats & Katanas". It's one thing not to like a style, but to declare that it is the wrong way to play and that there is only "One True Way" to play the game just comes across as very pretentious and fun-hating.

The metaplot in V5 is confined to a small intro section and a bit at the end. Most of the book is more concerned with being a sort of a general Gothic/Anne Rice vampire with the Masquerade clans thrown in. More of the book deals with the night to night stuff, humans, surviving. It's focused on city life. Very little metaplot I thought.


It's different in the sense that it's rules light and somebody actually attempted to encode the genre conceits in mechanics. The other editions mechanically are often oddly designed rules heavy games that say "forget the rules".

Have you actually read the book? Genuine question.

Not in its entirety, although I have read excerpts and some of the free preview stuff from before V5's full release. Needless to say, I'm not impressed and actually kind of disgusted.

 

[TristramEvans]

Seeing someone argue with Doc about goths and punks in Vampire...

 

[Doc Sammy]

Seeing someone argue with Doc about goths and punks in Vampire...

Well, then out of respect for you and the rest of the good people of the Pub, I shall desist. I've made my point and instead I'm going to talk about something else...

Mountain Dew is the best soda ever made.

 

[Séadna]

Not in its entirety, although I have read excerpts and some of the free preview stuff from before V5's full release. Needless to say, I'm not impressed and actually kind of disgusted.

I ask because:

That being said, 1E can support both styles, while V5 only supports the latter both via the default setting and more importantly. through mechanics such as Hunger Dice.

There's optional rules to tweak the style in 5E.

I don't agree that 1E just used Goth and Punk as marketing tools. The fiction writing throughout the earlier cores reinforce a Gothic atmosphere and (yes I know this is cliche to say) "punk attitude" as the intended way of playing. All 5E does is say "Hey what if we did that with the rules rather than tons of fiction".

Seeing someone argue with Doc about goths and punks in Vampire...

Doc Sammy's steadfast refusal to bow to the established orthodoxy is in punk tradition. I suspect he's playing a long con here, helping us to deepen our roleplaying by getting us to act like ossified Camarilla members.

 

[tenbones]

I have to admit - sometimes I enjoy Doc Sammy's rants on Vampire. Not necessarily because I agree with his take - but because I love the passion of his vision.

I'm saying this as someone that has spent a *LOT* of time and money in WoD - at one point I owned everything ever released up to Requiem and NWoD into Geist... (when I sold all my pre-NWoD stuff to my local private used bookstore - they put it out on Social media as "the most complete set of World of Darkness books they'd ever seen" LOL). So I'm saying - I'm not a casual fan of the material.

But I'm 180-degrees away from playing it anything remotely like Doc's idea. And while I giggle at it, I admire that he loves it in his own unique way. I would never dissuade him that he *can't* approach it in that manner (and no one here is either), but it cracks me up when he goes on these rants about it.

While you say you hate personal horror and all that stuff, Doc. Someday if you ever get out of that neck of the woods and make your way to Dallas, I'll have to take a crack at your preconceptions. I'd love to make you cry with terror/horror/joy in my Vampire game hehe.

 

[TristramEvans]

Well, then out of respect for you and the rest of the good people of the Pub, I shall desist. I've made my point and instead I'm going to talk about something else...

Mountain Dew is the best soda ever made.

No worriesDoc, it,s been a while, you’re entitled to your opinion same as any Pubber.If people want to argue with you about it, as long as it doesn’t get personal I,m not going to step into my mod shoes. Shine on you crazy diamond

 

[Doc Sammy]

I have to admit - sometimes I enjoy Doc Sammy's rants on Vampire. Not necessarily because I agree with his take - but because I love the passion of his vision.

I'm saying this as someone that has spent a *LOT* of time and money in WoD - at one point I owned everything ever released up to Requiem and NWoD into Geist... (when I sold all my pre-NWoD stuff to my local private used bookstore - they put it out on Social media as "the most complete set of World of Darkness books they'd ever seen" LOL). So I'm saying - I'm not a casual fan of the material.

But I'm 180-degrees away from playing it anything remotely like Doc's idea. And while I giggle at it, I admire that he loves it in his own unique way. I would never dissuade him that he *can't* approach it in that manner (and no one here is either), but it cracks me up when he goes on these rants about it.

While you say you hate personal horror and all that stuff, Doc. Someday if you ever get out of that neck of the woods and make your way to Dallas, I'll have to take a crack at your preconceptions. I'd love to make you cry with terror/horror/joy in my Vampire game hehe.

I'm gonna start saving up for a road trip to Dallas then...

 

[tenbones]

I'm gonna start saving up for a road trip to Dallas then...

Bring your tissues and Depends underwear.

 

[Doc Sammy]

Bring your tissues and Depends underwear.

But I don't need to buy Depends underwear. I'm not incontinent and haven't been since the 1994 Midterms.

Also, why do you want me to bring tissues? Are we playing a "Magical Realm" sort of chronicle?

 

[tenbones]

Oh it's magical. It's magical world of darkness. so magical. So. Magical.

 

[Doc Sammy]

Oh it's magical. It's magical world of darkness. so magical. So. Magical.

Well, if that's the case, there's something you should know.

I like big butts and I cannot lie.

(Also, futanari chicks are awesome)....I mean, nothing!



Sorry about that, these pretzels are making me thirsty....for based anime girls with dicks.....DAMMIT, WOMAN! I NEED POTASSIUM!

I'm going out to Kroger for some bananas. If I don't come back, avenge me!

 

[TristramEvans]

Oh it's magical. It's magical world of darkness. so magical. So. Magical.

I will pay you to record that game and upload it to Youtube

 

[Doc Sammy]

I will pay you to record that game and upload it to Youtube

If you do that, I'll be sure to wear the Kingdom Hearts ball cap and the bright red sunglasses and talk in the thickest Southwest Virginia accent that is humanly possible.

 

[opaopajr]

An amalgam of 1e and 2e, pretty much like every RPG. It's almost axiomatic!

 

[Gringnr]

How hard would it be to play V5 rules but use the clans/setting/plot of 1&2e? Maybe it's just nostalgia but...

Or should I just bite the bullet and dive into the V5 fluff?