Vampire nth Ed

[Baeraad]

That's interesting, what don't you like about randomisers?

Er... the randomness? Things should happen because they make sense within the game world and because they provide interesting choices for the players, not because a piece of plastic happened to stop one way instead of another.

How do you take part in this hobby and hate randomisers?

With much aggrevation and constant compromises, thank you for asking.

I understand what Baeraad is saying. If by going diceless you cut off such an important part (hunger), than the game doesn't really have a "diceless mode", which is what he wanted. Aka: You can't play it 100% diceless.

Baeraad , out of curiosity: what diceless games do you like most?

None of the existing ones, which is why I had hopes for this one. They're all either too barebones (Amber Diceless) or too weird (Nobilis, Chuubo's).

There are discussions on how to play freeform (diceless) with Hunger in the game too. The Hunger still needs to be tracked, but you don't need to roll dice to do this, and depending on the level it is you just roleplay the vampire as it fits. There are several methods outlined in the game to play Hunger without dice.

This game spends a long time discussing modes of play, and yes, it is possible to play the whole game without dice. It's just many groups like the dice systems to evoke an element of drama, including Hunger. Different groups can choose how much of a balance they want for themselves, and whatever they choose it is fully supported within the game system.

Okay, that on the other hand sounds promising.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Er... the randomness? Things should happen because they make sense within the game world and because they provide interesting choices for the players, not because a piece of plastic happened to stop one way instead of another.

Sounds like you have no solution to "bang! You're dead!" vs "Yah boo, yah missed me!"

In other words, sometimes things happen that you didn't expect. If everything in life proceeded according to a narrative and with outcomes that only make sense in terms of the story, how do you explain all the things that happen out of the blue, unexpectedly and that go completely wrong for no apparent reason?

 

[Séadna]

Er... the randomness? Things should happen because they make sense within the game world and because they provide interesting choices for the players, not because a piece of plastic happened to stop one way instead of another.

I'm just asking this because I'm curious, not to "disprove" diceless systems as I enjoy them myself.

Let's say one throws a spear at an enemy. Obviously one has stats for the the spear handling ability of the PC and the armour and dexterity of the enemy. These stats only determine the result so far, additional unknown variables (wind, aim being slightly off, etc) will influence the result do some unknown degree. The unknown degree being represented by the randomness generated by the dice. You'd even have this randomness in actual simulations of battles (and many other things).

So I assume this is a preference for how PCs being able to make completely informed choices rather than randomness being "unrealistic".

 

[Baeraad]

Sounds like you have no solution to "bang! You're dead!" vs "Yah boo, yah missed me!"

I have a theoretical solution. The solution is, an action succeeds if a character has sufficient skill to succeed at it under the current circumstances. If it could reasonably go either way, the GM picks the result that would make things the most interesting.

What I don't have is either a published game that handles task resolution that way, or the skill to write one of my own.

In other words, sometimes things happen that you didn't expect. If everything in life proceeded according to a narrative and with outcomes that only make sense in terms of the story, how do you explain all the things that happen out of the blue, unexpectedly and that go completely wrong for no apparent reason?

I explain that by life being stupid and incoherent. I mean, you're perfectly right, real life is ridiculous in how random it is. What I like about fiction is that it's supposed to make consistent sense. I'd like there to be more games that emulated fiction rather than real life in that respect.

I'm just asking this because I'm curious, not to "disprove" diceless systems as I enjoy them myself.

Let's say one throws a spear at an enemy. Obviously one has stats for the the spear handling ability of the PC and the armour and dexterity of the enemy. These stats only determine the result so far, additional unknown variables (wind, aim being slightly off, etc) will influence the result do some unknown degree. The unknown degree being represented by the randomness generated by the dice. You'd even have this randomness in actual simulations of battles (and many other things).

So I assume this is a preference for how PCs being able to make completely informed choices rather than randomness being "unrealistic".

More a preference for the GM getting to arbitrate based on what is reasonable and interesting instead of being bullied by the dice. The "interesting" part the GM can handle on their own, of course, but I'd like a game that actually provided the framework for helping determine what was "reasonable." Many games partly does that (you can play partly diceless D&D by having the players automatically Take 10 on all skill checks outside of combat, for instance) but there's always some part (usually combat) that just breaks down and becomes ridiculous without randomisers.

 

[Stevethulhu]

I have a theoretical solution. The solution is, an action succeeds if a character has sufficient skill to succeed at it under the current circumstances. If it could reasonably go either way, the GM picks the result that would make things the most interesting.

What I don't have is either a published game that handles task resolution that way, or the skill to write one of my own.

Seems to me that as long as you have a way of defining a reasonable skill under the current circumstances, you've got a house rule that should work

 

[Lessa]

None of the existing ones, which is why I had hopes for this one. They're all either too barebones (Amber Diceless) or too weird (Nobilis, Chuubo's).

Interesting. I asked the question because, coming from Undying in excitement last year, I was eager to try all those diceless games I've missed. Then as you say, Amber turned to be a glorified Mother may I, which is not something I like, and Chuubo/Nobilis... well I couldn't read those books without falling asleep. The author writing is impenetrable to me (though I would gladly play them with a vet GM to see how it's like in play).

Have you tried Hillfolk? Other than Undying it seems the only good diceless option I've found so far. Never played it myself but sounded good from the text and Let's Plays I've seen.

There are discussions on how to play V5 freeform (diceless) with Hunger in the game too. The Hunger still needs to be tracked, but you don't need to roll dice to do this, and depending on the level it is you just roleplay the vampire as it fits. There are several methods outlined in the game to play Hunger without dice.

If that's the case then cool. I'll have a look at it. Thanks.

 

[TristramEvans]

Is that the extent of your experience with Diceless games? Because I can recommend several others

 

[Lessa]

Yep. I think Amber proved so unsatisfying that I stop looking, being the most popular and all that. But sure, go ahead and tell me about other games. I'm all ears.

(maybe a new thread would be better as to not polite this fine V5 discussion?)

 

[Baulderstone]

Have you tried Hillfolk? Other than Undying it seems the only good diceless option I've found so far. Never played it myself but sounded good from the text and Let's Plays I've seen.

I've played Hillfolk a few times, and it played really well. Beyond liking the game itself, it's subtly informed the way that I set up "talky" scenes in other games.

 

[AsenRG]

Probably in a significant minority here, but I started gaming on VtM. It was the first tabletop game I had ever played, and had instantly captured me. As I've grown up, it's continued to exert great influence, in that urban fantasy/urban horror is my favorite genre of any game or media.

All that said, I'm firmly on the side of 2ed NWoD (CoD). I have been the storyteller for a group that has been mainlining first and second edition CoD for over 10 years (with only little breaks for other games). It is, in my opinion, the most solid toolbox for creating a coherent, consistent, World of Darkness, across all splats. I would not go back. And despite picking up all of the V5 stuff I can, I can't see it providing anything meaningful enough to our particular group to warrant us moving on.

(edited for run-ons. Far too passionate about WoD.)

FWIW, I also prefer nWoD/CoD, so you're not alone.
But it's not such a strong preference that I wouldn't play VtM, or V5 if anyone else is running them.

Yep. I think Amber proved so unsatisfying that I stop looking, being the most popular and all that. But sure, go ahead and tell me about other games. I'm all ears.

(maybe a new thread would be better as to not polite this fine V5 discussion?)

I'd recommend taking a good, hard look at the Stalker RPG. Thematically, it fits.
And there are some pools that you spend to avoid things going sideways when your overestimate your abilities. You can make them a blood pool with minimum effort!

 

[CRKrueger]

Anyone run the numbers on what Hunger actually looks like?

For example, in WFRP2 and the FFG40K games, magicians/psykers have such a high chance of bad things happening that if anyone attempted the use of magic anywhere near the level as depicted in the games and other media, their universes would only consist of major demons and insane mages/psykers.

It kinda of sounds like if you do anything remotely vampiric, you start the Hunger spiral which ends up with you winning the Blood Splattering Gold Medal in the Sabbat Olympics. Very flavorful and thematic, but if the reality at the table then becomes “No one ever acts Vampiric” then why not just play Diplomacy or Dallas.

I can see the Cost Benefit Analysis threads starting already, calculating which powers are actually worth the Hunger cost.

 

[Séadna]

I'll post some numbers from simulations tomorrow or so if I get the time.

 

[Baulderstone]

It kinda of sounds like if you do anything remotely vampiric, you start the Hunger spiral which ends up with you winning the Blood Splattering Gold Medal in the Sabbat Olympics. Very flavorful and thematic, but if the reality at the table then becomes “No one ever acts Vampiric” then why not just play Diplomacy or Dallas.

I think that would only be a problem if you played with turtles. In my experience, getting people to enter the deadly dungeon isn't a big deal when running old school D&D. Similarly, people keep investigating the Mythos in my Call of Cthulhu games despite the likely poor outcome. I expect that people that choose to play Vampire are going to want to do vampiric things even if is risky.

 

[AsenRG]

Very flavorful and thematic, but if the reality at the table then becomes “No one ever acts Vampiric” then why not just play Diplomacy or Dallas.

Because Diplomacy is the actual cut-throat game of broken friendships, and we're here to play a game with friends? And because while J.R. was called a bloodsucker a number of times, most vampire fans prefer to be more literal-minded on that matter?

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

I have to admit - sometimes I enjoy Doc Sammy's rants on Vampire. Not necessarily because I agree with his take - but because I love the passion of his vision.

But I'm 180-degrees away from playing it anything remotely like Doc's idea. And while I giggle at it, I admire that he loves it in his own unique way. I would never dissuade him that he *can't* approach it in that manner (and no one here is either), but it cracks me up when he goes on these rants about it.

Doc Sammy reminds me a lot of Skeloric. That was a guy who hang out on the WW and Shadownessence fora and was very hungup on nWoD and mostly on Mage the Awakening. He missed the cyberpunk elements from Mage the Ascension and the pulpy art style from oWoD (cover)art. Always ranting and of course all the intolerant WW fanboys were constantly dogpiling him, because they couldn't wrap their head around the fact that he wasn't a hater but he was just pure and honest. I like those honest people a lot even though I might not agree with their taste.

 

[Trippy]

Anyone run the numbers on what Hunger actually looks like?

For example, in WFRP2 and the FFG40K games, magicians/psykers have such a high chance of bad things happening that if anyone attempted the use of magic anywhere near the level as depicted in the games and other media, their universes would only consist of major demons and insane mages/psykers.

It kinda of sounds like if you do anything remotely vampiric, you start the Hunger spiral which ends up with you winning the Blood Splattering Gold Medal in the Sabbat Olympics. Very flavorful and thematic, but if the reality at the table then becomes “No one ever acts Vampiric” then why not just play Diplomacy or Dallas.

I can see the Cost Benefit Analysis threads starting already, calculating which powers are actually worth the Hunger cost.

One of the diceless possibilities mentioned in the book is to just give people a dot of Hunger for every forty minutes of game time that they go without feeding. Your Hunger will go up if you use powers and so on too, but it’s not a question of avoiding doing vampiric things - you are a vampire, and your Hunger will increase one way or another. The question is how will you manage it. It’s a marked difference in how Blood points operated previously.

 

[Baulderstone]

Because Diplomacy is the actual cut-throat game of broken friendships, and we're here to play a game with friends? And because while J.R. was called a bloodsucker a number of times, most vampire fans prefer to be more literal-minded on that matter?

You have a point. If you want to a play a game where nobody flies into a frenzy and kills somebody, Diplomacy is a poor choice.

 

[Mankcam]

As on old VtM fan, I am really liking what I am reading with V5

I wonder how well it is going in terms of sales?

It would be nice to see it boom in popularity again
(just as long as we get more resource and campaign books, not the 'splat' book situation of late '90s WoD)

 

[Trippy]

As on old VtM fan, I am really liking what I am reading with V5

I wonder how well it is going in terms of sales?

It would be nice to see it boom in popularity again
(just as long as we get more resource and campaign books, not the 'splat' book situation of late '90s WoD)

In terms of sales, it's Modiphius' best selling game (which explains why they were happy to take over the management of the game line under license). The last two quarters had Vampire being a Top 5 selling game in retail stores - although the main value of the IPs I suspect are with the computer games. I don't know whether it will ever get back to the point of challenging D&D, and really the line is still only a year old.

The upcoming line is going to include Chicago by Night from Onyx Path, which I think is set for an imminent release to Kickstarters, a London based chronicle, a sourcebook for The Second Inquisition (an organised hunting group), a Starter set and a Player's Handbook (which will detail all the other Clans not detailed in the corebook from my understanding). There is no plans for Clanbooks - with the Camarilla and Anarch books the closest to being 'splat' books. I guess they may get round to doing a Sabbat book perhaps, but it's going to be way down the line I think. I suspect the next thing Modiphius may be thinking about after they get through the current release list will be Werewolf.

I'm particularly looking foward to the London Chronicle (London Burning?), having lived there and it being such an ancient and cosmopolitan city.

 

[Mankcam]

Sounds great!

Shifting to London as a campaign setting is pretty cool, and I would love if they had go a step further and set it in Continental Europe - Vienna, or Prague would be ideal

I'll see how I go whether to get the Camarilla and Anarch books yet

 

[Baulderstone]

It would be nice to see it boom in popularity again
(just as long as we get more resource and campaign books, not the 'splat' book situation of late '90s WoD)

The release of the new video game next year should be an opportunity for the game to get more attention, not that it is doing badly.

 

[Trippy]

Modiphius have just announced a new miniature line for Vampire today.

 

[Séadna]

Modiphius have just announced a new miniature line for Vampire today.

They got the Homeworld setting as well.

 

[TJS]

They got the Homeworld setting as well.

Soon they shall have everything.

 

[Séadna]

Soon they shall have everything.

Survivor's Diary: Day 546

Modiphius took the coast two weeks ago at 2:14 Eastern Time. We tried to use our missiles against them, but the fuckers had the license on the missiles. The rebellion failed when we couldn't rebel for copyright reasons: They had licensed every post-apocalyptic uprising based setting.

 

[Trippy]

Modiphius have just announced they bought Disney.

Although they didn't include the rights to Spiderman, they bought Sony too to be sure.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

The release of the new video game next year should be an opportunity for the game to get more attention, not that it is doing badly.

They've also announced that Big Bad Wolf (the people behind The Council) are doing a game which should be great for getting the Telltale type players into the setting.

 

[Mankcam]

Modiphius just bought the rights to Mars yesterday