Caesar Slaad
Legendary Pubber
- Joined
- May 15, 2017
- Messages
- 548
- Reaction score
- 1,369
Being the first in the series of discussion I jotted down when bored at work. I started this rumination when my Pathfinder 2e books arrived. Though I've had it for a bit now, I’m not even sure if I’ll ever play it. And why is that?
I am not going to delve too deeply into that specific case, but I thought it would be interesting to examine the more general process of decision making of whether to start running a new edition of a game you are already playing. This is far from my first rodeo. There have been many games for which I have made the decision either to move forward (AD&D->2e->3e, CT->MT, etc.), and other games where I have decided not to follow course (MT->TNE, 3.x->4e).
Reasons to transition:
1 - It’s the version the company is currently putting out.
I thought I’d put this up front because taken by itself, I think it’s the most value-absent reason to update editions, with the important caveat that I am not talking about other facts that often come with this fact (current support, etc.) There seems to be a large body of players for whom this is reason enough. Call it brand loyalty, etc., but I think that absent other factor, it’s not sufficient value.
2 – Current support
Most game companies adopt a new system and never look back. If new content is something that drives your games (or your obsession to consume content you might not ever use, if you have that malady), that can be a significant and well-justified decision point.
3 – Addresses problems I have with the game
As far as I am concerned, this is THE primary reason to go with a new edition. If you love the idea of a game, but find that some major bugaboo is impeding your enjoyment, and the new edition fixes it, then it seems like a no brainer.
4 – Does something exciting and new
This one’s a bit riskier. If the game is getting stale, try something new! Sadly, I find this is a miss more than a hit.
Reason to stay:
1 – Current campaigns
Probably the #1 reason to forestall edition changes at least temporarily is that you are currently running a campaign using the rules. Unless the new rules-set is highly portable, it’s rarely worth the time and effort to transition systems IME. Indeed, in some systems, new editions can effectively invalidate existing character or make them unplayable/undesirable, even if they aren’t necessarily abusive.
2 – Philosophical difference with changes
In many cases, what the designers think deserve design attention, or the solutions they choose to apply, are not what you want or need out of a game. This is a big thing that kept me away from D&D 4th edition. Even as early as D&D 3.5, I disliked rules that made the map more of a boss than a facilitator when it changed the cover rule from a DM call about what was happening in the world to tracing lines on a battlematt. 4e continued this trend of making the battlematt key.
3 – Actual steps backwards
Sometimes the designers aren’t as clever as they think they are, or don’t understand the functional benefit of systems they have chosen alter or replace. Now I admit that the difference between this and the previous one may be a matter of perception, but the ends of that spectrum seem pretty clear to me.
4 – Absence of support of new system
So let’s say you like what the designers are doing with the new edition and you want to play. If the system is one that previously enjoyed a lot of supporting material (character option books, adversary/monster books, equipment books, adventures), you immediately find yourself without that material. In some cases, the system is highly portable and you can use the old material with few adjustments. But the sorts of games for which this is typically true are the sorts of systems for which many critics agree that not enough was done to actually improve the game (Call of Cthulhu, I am looking at you).
One happy exception for me here seems to be Traveller. I can use CT products with MT, and use either of those with MgT1e or even for T20 for everything but characters.
In many cases, this issue tends to vanish after time after the company has had a chance to put out new material, though in many (most?) cases, the same sourcebooks/adventures never get reprinted. But if the general idea of support is something you need, sometimes it’s enough to simply wait a year or two for it to materialize.
4b – Electronic Support
Systems that allow or even rely on third party support in some form seldom get the same sort of support through edition changes. This is particular issue in software support, since most game companies that enjoy it rely on third parties to achieve it.
That’s exactly what I was experiencing with Pathfinder. Hero Lab was a superlative tool that helped me tame the beast that was Pathfinder 1st edition. But Hero Lab has fully committed to the notion of “cloud support” for their newer version of the tool. When I ran Starfinder (the first game to be supported fully by their cloud model), it became clear to me how unrealistic that model was. Too many places I might find myself gaming (FLGS, Hotel, Convention Center, Friend’s House) do not have reliable internet connections yet, and that’s not an obstacle I care to put up with when running a game.
4b – Reduction of options
If you have an option-rich game, and the shift in editions is not largely backwards compatible, you will find yourself having to make new characters with what seems like a much more limited palette of character options. This might limit flexibility in character design in general, or remove a specific favored option that a player enjoys playing.
This is probably the issue most Pathfinder fans were grappling with.
4c – Setting Dead Ends
This mostly applies to D&D, though if you can think of other examples I’d be interested to hear it. D&D has variant settings like Planescape and Dark Sun that were fan favorites. Wizards never re-released those settings in full, and half-measures like Dragon articles to port them to new editions have never done them justice.
5 – Indoctrinating players
Even if a game has mostly worthwhile changes, the table time taken to teach players the changes in the system may not be worth it.
6 – Cash and time investment (or “What I have works”)
Games can be a big investment in terms of both acquisition and learning time. Games don’t stop working just because the rules are less than perfect. How much is it worth to you to grab a whole new set of books for your game?
This is where I sit with Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition. It seems like it’s a nice game with better art and some nice modern features. Yet, I have already accumulated a somewhat expensive collection on first edition books which, while they have some problems, fundamentally do what I want from session to session.
7 – (Meta)Setting shift
Some games have explicit settings that may shift due to “pushing the timeline forward”. Others game may just have implied setting elements, but add or shift setting elements that make the game “about” something modestly different than what you were running before.
In some cases the rules support a world with changes you aren’t interested in including. In other cases, the book creates expectations among players that you don’t want to fight against. I spent years in D&D 3.x telling players I would not be using the Forgotten Realms deities included in the PHB; I wasn’t looking forward to turning down a gaggle of players who wanted to play dragonborn because they didn’t fit in any existing culture in my game world.
This was one of the reasons that I didn’t shift in the case of both 3.x->4e and MegaTaveller->Traveller: The New Era.
Third option: jumping ship!
A new edition of a beloved game comes along. You understand the shortcomings of the game that the new edition is trying to address, yet you don’t like where the designers are going. What is a gamer to do?
One last option is neither! There are plenty of sexy games out here, and if your current game is wearing thin, and the next edition isn't lighting your fire, the coming of a new edition might just be the thing to get you to make the jump and embrace a different game you have been intrigued by for a while.
Maybe now is the time to try something new, or port a favored setting to a system with its own strengths and weaknesses. This is sort of the path that many D&D 3.x fans took when 4e came along.
I am not going to delve too deeply into that specific case, but I thought it would be interesting to examine the more general process of decision making of whether to start running a new edition of a game you are already playing. This is far from my first rodeo. There have been many games for which I have made the decision either to move forward (AD&D->2e->3e, CT->MT, etc.), and other games where I have decided not to follow course (MT->TNE, 3.x->4e).
Reasons to transition:
1 - It’s the version the company is currently putting out.
I thought I’d put this up front because taken by itself, I think it’s the most value-absent reason to update editions, with the important caveat that I am not talking about other facts that often come with this fact (current support, etc.) There seems to be a large body of players for whom this is reason enough. Call it brand loyalty, etc., but I think that absent other factor, it’s not sufficient value.
2 – Current support
Most game companies adopt a new system and never look back. If new content is something that drives your games (or your obsession to consume content you might not ever use, if you have that malady), that can be a significant and well-justified decision point.
3 – Addresses problems I have with the game
As far as I am concerned, this is THE primary reason to go with a new edition. If you love the idea of a game, but find that some major bugaboo is impeding your enjoyment, and the new edition fixes it, then it seems like a no brainer.
4 – Does something exciting and new
This one’s a bit riskier. If the game is getting stale, try something new! Sadly, I find this is a miss more than a hit.
Reason to stay:
1 – Current campaigns
Probably the #1 reason to forestall edition changes at least temporarily is that you are currently running a campaign using the rules. Unless the new rules-set is highly portable, it’s rarely worth the time and effort to transition systems IME. Indeed, in some systems, new editions can effectively invalidate existing character or make them unplayable/undesirable, even if they aren’t necessarily abusive.
2 – Philosophical difference with changes
In many cases, what the designers think deserve design attention, or the solutions they choose to apply, are not what you want or need out of a game. This is a big thing that kept me away from D&D 4th edition. Even as early as D&D 3.5, I disliked rules that made the map more of a boss than a facilitator when it changed the cover rule from a DM call about what was happening in the world to tracing lines on a battlematt. 4e continued this trend of making the battlematt key.
3 – Actual steps backwards
Sometimes the designers aren’t as clever as they think they are, or don’t understand the functional benefit of systems they have chosen alter or replace. Now I admit that the difference between this and the previous one may be a matter of perception, but the ends of that spectrum seem pretty clear to me.
4 – Absence of support of new system
So let’s say you like what the designers are doing with the new edition and you want to play. If the system is one that previously enjoyed a lot of supporting material (character option books, adversary/monster books, equipment books, adventures), you immediately find yourself without that material. In some cases, the system is highly portable and you can use the old material with few adjustments. But the sorts of games for which this is typically true are the sorts of systems for which many critics agree that not enough was done to actually improve the game (Call of Cthulhu, I am looking at you).
One happy exception for me here seems to be Traveller. I can use CT products with MT, and use either of those with MgT1e or even for T20 for everything but characters.
In many cases, this issue tends to vanish after time after the company has had a chance to put out new material, though in many (most?) cases, the same sourcebooks/adventures never get reprinted. But if the general idea of support is something you need, sometimes it’s enough to simply wait a year or two for it to materialize.
4b – Electronic Support
Systems that allow or even rely on third party support in some form seldom get the same sort of support through edition changes. This is particular issue in software support, since most game companies that enjoy it rely on third parties to achieve it.
That’s exactly what I was experiencing with Pathfinder. Hero Lab was a superlative tool that helped me tame the beast that was Pathfinder 1st edition. But Hero Lab has fully committed to the notion of “cloud support” for their newer version of the tool. When I ran Starfinder (the first game to be supported fully by their cloud model), it became clear to me how unrealistic that model was. Too many places I might find myself gaming (FLGS, Hotel, Convention Center, Friend’s House) do not have reliable internet connections yet, and that’s not an obstacle I care to put up with when running a game.
4b – Reduction of options
If you have an option-rich game, and the shift in editions is not largely backwards compatible, you will find yourself having to make new characters with what seems like a much more limited palette of character options. This might limit flexibility in character design in general, or remove a specific favored option that a player enjoys playing.
This is probably the issue most Pathfinder fans were grappling with.
4c – Setting Dead Ends
This mostly applies to D&D, though if you can think of other examples I’d be interested to hear it. D&D has variant settings like Planescape and Dark Sun that were fan favorites. Wizards never re-released those settings in full, and half-measures like Dragon articles to port them to new editions have never done them justice.
5 – Indoctrinating players
Even if a game has mostly worthwhile changes, the table time taken to teach players the changes in the system may not be worth it.
6 – Cash and time investment (or “What I have works”)
Games can be a big investment in terms of both acquisition and learning time. Games don’t stop working just because the rules are less than perfect. How much is it worth to you to grab a whole new set of books for your game?
This is where I sit with Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition. It seems like it’s a nice game with better art and some nice modern features. Yet, I have already accumulated a somewhat expensive collection on first edition books which, while they have some problems, fundamentally do what I want from session to session.
7 – (Meta)Setting shift
Some games have explicit settings that may shift due to “pushing the timeline forward”. Others game may just have implied setting elements, but add or shift setting elements that make the game “about” something modestly different than what you were running before.
In some cases the rules support a world with changes you aren’t interested in including. In other cases, the book creates expectations among players that you don’t want to fight against. I spent years in D&D 3.x telling players I would not be using the Forgotten Realms deities included in the PHB; I wasn’t looking forward to turning down a gaggle of players who wanted to play dragonborn because they didn’t fit in any existing culture in my game world.
This was one of the reasons that I didn’t shift in the case of both 3.x->4e and MegaTaveller->Traveller: The New Era.
Third option: jumping ship!
A new edition of a beloved game comes along. You understand the shortcomings of the game that the new edition is trying to address, yet you don’t like where the designers are going. What is a gamer to do?
One last option is neither! There are plenty of sexy games out here, and if your current game is wearing thin, and the next edition isn't lighting your fire, the coming of a new edition might just be the thing to get you to make the jump and embrace a different game you have been intrigued by for a while.
Maybe now is the time to try something new, or port a favored setting to a system with its own strengths and weaknesses. This is sort of the path that many D&D 3.x fans took when 4e came along.
?
!
) and we have pre-ordered 3, 3.5, 4 and 5th Edition D&D.
