Kickstarters Thread

[Mike Myler]

EN5ider is getting positively Hellenic with today's issue! Delve further to see a proper gladiator archetype, something for warlocks looking to pierce the veil of time, and a domain for the community-minded cleric!

Tomorrow the A Touch More Class Kickstarter goes live but if you can't wait, check out the free previews for the geomancer and savant classes!




Lately on EN5ider:

• #277. Archetypes of Antiquity. Take to the coliseum with the retiarius fighter archetype, a net-wielding combatant perfect for gladiator-style characters! Perhaps instead you might pierce the veil as a warlock of the Oracle patron, foreseeing what is to come just in time to dodge a lethal blow or even reveal to your enemy the final moment of its life? There's also the Family domain for clerics yearning for a sense of community and the means to protect it, as well as a new background appropriate for campaigns in ancient Greece or Rome (the Freed Slave). Written by Takeshi McFinn; illustrated by Marcel Budde.
• #276. Mini-Adventure: Secret Faces of Velsburg. While traveling through the wilderness the adventurers come across a small hamlet plagued by a recent rash or murders committed by 'The Ghost'. The longer the party stay in Velsburg however, the quicker they realize that the supposedly bloodthirsty spirit preying upon the settlement is not the remote village's only mystery. In this sidequest to save Velsburg the PCs are confronted with a shocking truth underpinning it all and are presented with a dire dilemma: is it worth saving? This mini-adventure is for 4-5 PCs of 5th level. Written by Charlie Brooks; illustrated by Savage Mojo; cartography from Dyson Logos.
• #275. Intriguing Organizations: The Osseous Dwarves of Hollow Mountain. In the ancient past the exiles of a dwarven kingdom made their own home by hollowing out a mountain and building a fortress atop it, embracing the defensive measure that saw them cast out by their kin—necromancy. Eventually the world saw their civilization undone but someone (perhaps even the party or someone they know) raided the entrance to their seemingly abandoned city. This trespass has disturbed the slumber of the stout folk and now they rise again as undead, masterless and deluded into believing they live still. The few who know of them call them the Osseus Dwarves for they believe the weapons and armor they forge is made of steel, unaware and unable to see not only their own changed forms, but also that they wield and wear the bones of the dead. This killer entry in the Intriguing Organizations series includes 2 new magic items (bone plate and the bone warhammer), 3 new monsters (Osseous Agent, their leader Blue Helm, and the awesome Siege Mammoth!), and all the details a GM might need to include this group in a game. Thanks to designer Eran Aviram for another brilliantly written article; amazing illustration by the inimitable Indi Martin!
• #274. ZEITGEIST #7 - Schism: Part 1. Finally the party has a chance to infiltrate the Obscurati, master conspirators they've been chasing for much of the adventure path! On a bleak, remote isle, the gathered villains plot the final stages of their grand design. This heavily-guarded affair is the best chance to land a killing blow against the Obscurati, but to get close enough to strike the constables will need an invitation. Fortunately an old enemy of the party is having a bit of an identity crisis.
  Alexander Grappa crafted the mind of the conspiracy's colossus, then was slain when he had second thoughts. But the crafty mage managed to transfer his consciousness into Leone Quital, who is now responsible for ferrying conspirators to the meeting's secret location. If the constables can help Grappa get control of his new body, he can get them into the conclave. This adventure is provides the maps, narration, sidequests, and encounters that a GM needs to get right up to that point!
  For patrons not playing through the adventure path, this PDF includes 5 unique NPCs (including a headless fellow) and 3 railroad-themed maps (a train station, platform, and some rail cars).
• #273. Enchanted Trinkets: Thanks for the Memories. Memory can be a funny, ephemeral thing and today's article has almost a dozen charming little Enchanted Trinkets all revolving around mnemonic themes. When making use of these innocuous magic items not only will your adventurers gain a small bonus or extra ability, they'll briefly experience the memories of others as well. Whether we're talking about the ever-shifting map, flute of the forgotten feast, ivory knights, or plague doctor's mask this is an issue of EN5ider that you won't soon forget! Written by Charlie Brooks and illustrated by Rachel Maduro.

 

[Mike Myler]

Within 4 minutes of launching the A TOUCH MORE CLASS Kickstarter has funded!



Get the 7 revised classes from A Touch of Class, the 9 new ones in A Touch More Class, all 16 in the snazzy Masterclass Codex hardcover, and even a custom tarot deck for playing a cardcaster! Or get some adventuring material too with the War of Burning Sky or ZEITGEIST Starter Sets!

A Touch More Class: 9 New 5th Edition Classes

Monster tamers, gunfighters, tinkerers, savants, and more! These new classes expand your 5th Edition game in exciting new ways!

www.kickstarter.com

 

[Chris Brady]

I will never get the need some people have to compartmentalize every single concept into it's own, hyper focused little 'class' in D&D. But clearly there's a market out there. So, go you!

 

[Mike Myler]

I will never get the need some people have to compartmentalize every single concept into it's own, hyper focused little 'class' in D&D. But clearly there's a market out there. So, go you!

From a blog post that should go up in a week or two:

THAT SHOULD BE A SUBCLASS

This is far and away the most common remark on new classes but before addressing it I want to clarify something that I constantly see people get wrong: Wizards of the Coast did not invent archetypes/subclasses, the golems at Paizo Publishing did that in the first edition of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (or if you like, TSR did it with kits). Please give credit where it is due.

So why isn't everything in ATMC a subclass or series of archetypes? As a handy rule if you've only got one or two original mechanics and central aspects to the class you're building, you probably are building an archetype. There are other considerations (see below) but that should be in the fore of your mind.

That's not a hard and fast rule however, and if you're only introducing one unique and central mechanical concept--like bloodweavers manipulating their hit points to eke out more magic use or the tempo of lodestars in combat--that might fit the bill. Consider this: almost every core class has at least one main mechanic that influences how it is played which is shared across all of its subclasses. Fluid spell resources Sorcerer Points and Metamagic, Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge, Divine Smite, Rage, and so on. These are so focused so that in subclasses players can choose to keep the simplicity and main essence of the class (see Champion or Thief), or they can dip their toes into something more complex (like spellcasting with Arcane Tricksters or Eldritch Knight). If you're building a new class its shtick needs to complement the existing central mechanics of the core classes and work with them, not copy or interfere with them.

 

[Skywalker]

I will never get the need some people have to compartmentalize every single concept into it's own, hyper focused little 'class' in D&D. But clearly there's a market out there. So, go you!

Its low hanging fruit for taking people's dollars, so I am not surprised to see it on KS. I am happy that WotC seems to have wised up to this strategy as not being the best for the product in the long term though.

 

[Chris Brady]

So first off, I am not trying to bash or say your ideas or concepts are wrong. It's just that I don't get the need to do so. To be fair, though, D&D does share some of the blame. It has broad archetypes right beside hyper focused classes that have almost no wiggle room for customization.

Take the simple fighter, fighting style choices can help determine the type of fighter you can be. Two Weapon? City-based swashbuckler or homestead frontiersman. Archery? Village Yeoman, or a sportsman who did the contest circuit and wants more. Two Handed Weapon? Mercenary or Errant Knight. And that's still nothing but a Fighter, not even touching the subclasses.

The Wizard? Even beyond the nine Schools which have their own archetypes within them, like the Enchantress/Seductress, you pick other schools and within some of them you can have multiple archetypes. Divination, a village Oracle who speaks to spirits, a medieval detective or a sage who seeks knowledge because it's there. Transmuters can also be scientists like Alchemists.

Even Clerics, each Domain can either make a gentle village healer, to a traditional Western Monk or Nun, a fire and brimstone avenger and more. And the Rogue? As many types as there are skills. It is literally the Everyman of adventuring.

Some of the other classes like Paladin, Ranger and Bard are slightly more constrictive, but the sub-classes help define them.

And then you get to the problem classes like the Barbarian and the Monk, which are so restrictive in their archetypes that it gives the idea that every class is as restrictive that you need to make a new class for everything. The Barbarian isn't as bad, but even then it's almost always a tribesman/wilderness warrior with anger management issues.

But the problem class is the Monk, whose archetype is so steeped in Asian mythology that it's nigh impossible to make it anything else but, and worst most of the time people don't care about it beyond 'I punch faces for JUSTICE!' It's a one note concept that gives some players I've known the idea that EVERY single concept that they ever thought of MUST be it's own singular class. When in fact, if they looked a little harder they'd find another class that can do what they want.

Except mulit-classers, everyone I have met is a power-gamer who wants to make the game about them, and them only, despite the well known fact that D&D is a team based game, were your friends in different classes are there to shore up any shortcomings.

Again, this is MY stance. You do you, and more power to you. I sincerely hope this works out well for you.

Its low hanging fruit for taking people's dollars, so I am not surprised to see it on KS. I am happy that WotC seems to have wised up to this strategy as not being the best for the product in the long term though.

It may be 'low hanging fruit', but there's clearly a market that's grabbing it by the bucket. So once again, Mr. Myler, good luck and I hope you find success.

 

[Mike Myler]

You should check out the cardcaster (even the old iteration, linked here, is really neat) or the geomancer (same guy designed both; it is free over yonder). These are both valid concepts that the core classes just can't do, or if they try to do it via an archetype, don't do it well. The savant is another good example of that and also has a free thing (and two versions of Sherlock Holmes built using it, I argue to much greater and more accurate effect than what you can get to by multiclassing around rogue/fighter trying to cherrypick abilities for a concept they are not built to sustain).

Also this isn't *my* Kickstarter. It's my boss' Kickstarter, I just commissioned, edited, and developed all the stuff in it. Just popped past $10,000 (in four hours whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat is going on) so I'm burning all the incense over here hoping the pace holds up!

Its low hanging fruit for taking people's dollars, so I am not surprised to see it on KS. I am happy that WotC seems to have wised up to this strategy as not being the best for the product in the long term though.

WotC wised up to "it's insane and unsustainable to release 2 lore books every month". I wasn't really paying much attention during 4E (I know some folks were, but I was not) but did they *ever* produce a lot of original classes? I think Paizo did. I think Paizo steadily released additional 1-20 classes until there were dozens of them over the course of a decade. It's one of the things that makes Pathfinder great (that and the way all those official options plug into their robust organized play effort). WotC's answer to a sustained revenue stream (create a slaughterhouse for potential competitors and tax it) is a much worse answer and since they made their play it's felt like the industry has a drunk driver behind the wheel. :/

 

[Chris Brady]

4e was when WoTC realized that class bloat didn't help. They found that it was simply impossible to make a class to cover every little thing one could do, and you couldn't please most players. So they pulled back and went back to an earlier version of D&D mixed in with what they learned in the past 40 years.

 

[Skywalker]

WotC wised up to "it's insane and unsustainable to release 2 lore books every month". I wasn't really paying much attention during 4E (I know some folks were, but I was not) but did they *ever* produce a lot of original classes? I think Paizo did. I think Paizo steadily released additional 1-20 classes until there were dozens of them over the course of a decade. It's one of the things that makes Pathfinder great (that and the way all those official options plug into their robust organized play effort). WotC's answer to a sustained revenue stream (create a slaughterhouse for potential competitors and tax it) is a much worse answer and since they made their play it's felt like the industry has a drunk driver behind the wheel. :/

I can't say I agree with much of what you say here, and I feel that has been borne out in the trends of both RPGs in the last 5 years. But its does help explain why there are those who will happily back this campaign. Good luck.

 

[Voros]

I'm a collector of tarot sets so that intrigues me.

 

[Moonglum]

Call me when someone puts out a classless version of 5E.

 

[Nick J]

Call me when someone puts out a classless version of 5E.

There is probably some sort of asymptote of division, where you atomize the classes to such a point, that you are basically "classless."

 

[Moonglum]

I have always felt you get to that point as crossing from Chainmail to OD+D. Classless could be fine. Heroes vs. Magicians could be fine. Everything more discretized than that is a bother.

 

[Ladybird]

4e was when WoTC realized that class bloat didn't help. They found that it was simply impossible to make a class to cover every little thing one could do, and you couldn't please most players. So they pulled back and went back to an earlier version of D&D mixed in with what they learned in the past 40 years.

The other way of looking at it is, every time you add a new option, you multiply your balancing work because you have to consider it against every other option in the game, and of course something is going to slip through and be over or under the "intended" mechanical power curve. So there's solid logic in trying to keep the amount of options low enough to be manageable, but high enough to provide variety; a thing I think 5e has done pretty well so far.

Call me when someone puts out a classless version of 5E.

You could probably use the core mechanics - stats, skills, proficiencies, saves - on their own as a perfectly sound game, all the underlying stuff works, but it's classes that really make it exciting.

 

[AsenRG]

Call me when someone puts out a classless version of 5E.

The D&D 5e version of Talislanta: Savage Lands is calling to you!

Full disclosure: I've only read it with tenbones kindly agreement. Personally, I got the Talislanta-system version of TSL.

 

[Voros]

The other way of looking at it is, every time you add a new option, you multiply your balancing work because you have to consider it against every other option in the game, and of course something is going to slip through and be over or under the "intended" mechanical power curve. So there's solid logic in trying to keep the amount of options low enough to be manageable, but high enough to provide variety; a thing I think 5e has done pretty well so far.


You could probably use the core mechanics - stats, skills, proficiencies, saves - on their own as a perfectly sound game, all the underlying stuff works, but it's classes that really make it exciting.

Jeremy Crawford has has exactly this on the D&D Dragontalk podcast, that everytime a new class or feat is introduced it becomes that much more difficult to predict its effect in the game so they want to limit that as much as they can while still trying to give people the variety and options they like.

 

[Chris Brady]

The other way of looking at it is, every time you add a new option, you multiply your balancing work because you have to consider it against every other option in the game, and of course something is going to slip through and be over or under the "intended" mechanical power curve. So there's solid logic in trying to keep the amount of options low enough to be manageable, but high enough to provide variety; a thing I think 5e has done pretty well so far.

That probably was the bigger factor, I will concede (although I freely admit that I don't have proof of it either way, beyond one of the play tests answers mentioning that 4e's classes got ridiculously overspecialized, I just don't recall it being an official answer, or an opinion)

You could probably use the core mechanics - stats, skills, proficiencies, saves - on their own as a perfectly sound game, all the underlying stuff works, but it's classes that really make it exciting.

In my experience, people who want 'classless' are pretty much the same types who want unlimited multiclass. The ability to do it all at the expense of the rest of the table.

 

[Nick J]

In my experience, people who want 'classless' are pretty much the same types who want unlimited multiclass. The ability to do it all at the expense of the rest of the table.

Or they just ditch D&D and go play a classless system. ;)

 

[AsenRG]

Or they just ditch D&D and go play a classless system. ;)

There's always that option, too.

 

[Justin Alexander]

When deciding whether or not to back this campaign, keep in mind that Morrus has a track record of scamming people on Kickstarter.

Back in 2013, I backed this Kickstarter as a Silver Subscriber: "LIFER! A lifetime EN World silver subscriber account. Basically, you'll get PDFs of everything we ever make for if not your lifetime, certainly the lifetime of EN World."

I'm still alive. EN World still exists. I haven't gotten a PDF in 6 years.

After requesting multiple times that I be given access to what I had paid for, Morrus replied by calling me a "jerk" and declaring that he would be ignoring all future communication.

Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Chris Brady]

Or they just ditch D&D and go play a classless system. ;)

I was making an assumption that they were still wanting a D&D experience, otherwise I would assume that they wouldn't be talking about making D&D classless. Also, it's MY experience, anecdotal. I'm sure there are people who aren't trying to metagame the system when they want classless D&D, I've just never met any of them.

 

[Gringnr]

I have never felt the need for more class options than there are in AD&D 1e. But, hey, to each their own.

 

[AsenRG]

When deciding whether or not to back this campaign, keep in mind that Morrus has a track record of scamming people on Kickstarter.

Back in 2013, I backed this Kickstarter as a Silver Subscriber: "LIFER! A lifetime EN World silver subscriber account. Basically, you'll get PDFs of everything we ever make for if not your lifetime, certainly the lifetime of EN World."

I'm still alive. EN World still exists. I haven't gotten a PDF in 6 years.

After requesting multiple times that I be given access to what I had paid for, Morrus replied by calling me a "jerk" and declaring that he would be ignoring all future communication.

Proceed at your own risk.

Are Mike Myler and Morrus the same person?

 

[Justin Alexander]

Are Mike Myler and Morrus the same person?

No. Morrus is Russell Morrissey. This is his Kickstarter. Mike apparently works for him and is listed as a collaborator on the campaign.

 

[Necrozius]

Looks interesting, but whenever I see new classes, whether in a formal KS campaign or free stuff posted on social media, I keep thinking “couldn’t this just be a 3rd level specialization of an existing class?”

Even the specific examples provided to counter this argument (eg, geomancer, cartomancer) I still see them as specialization concepts rather than whole new classes.

Then again, I’m one of those weirdoes who wishes that Cleric, Wizard, Sorceror, Druid and Warlock were all just one big magic user class.

But anyways, I think that this campaign will have a tough time beating the competition: vast free fan-made classes with decent writing and art that are available for free or pretty cheap in existing channels. What makes this more special or unique? Not asking in a mean way: I’m genuinely curious.

 

[OHT]

When deciding whether or not to back this campaign, keep in mind that Morrus has a track record of scamming people on Kickstarter.

Back in 2013, I backed this Kickstarter as a Silver Subscriber: "LIFER! A lifetime EN World silver subscriber account. Basically, you'll get PDFs of everything we ever make for if not your lifetime, certainly the lifetime of EN World."

I'm still alive. EN World still exists. I haven't gotten a PDF in 6 years.

After requesting multiple times that I be given access to what I had paid for, Morrus replied by calling me a "jerk" and declaring that he would be ignoring all future communication.

Proceed at your own risk.

Did you get banned from EN World Justin?

 

[Mike Myler]

Looks interesting, but whenever I see new classes, whether in a formal KS campaign or free stuff posted on social media, I keep thinking “couldn’t this just be a 3rd level specialization of an existing class?”

Even the specific examples provided to counter this argument (eg, geomancer, cartomancer) I still see them as specialization concepts rather than whole new classes.

Then again, I’m one of those weirdoes who wishes that Cleric, Wizard, Sorceror, Druid and Warlock were all just one big magic user class.

But anyways, I think that this campaign will have a tough time beating the competition: vast free fan-made classes with decent writing and art that are available for free or pretty cheap in existing channels. What makes this more special or unique? Not asking in a mean way: I’m genuinely curious.

Each of them started as articles on EN5ider and have benefited from playtesting/critiques/etc. by the 1,000+ Patrons over there. They are also available in awesome print books via this Kickstarter so if you wanted a snazzier physical copy than using a binder, this is the best way to facilitate that (I don't think DnDHomebrew has book printing options amirite?) The original classes also got revisions based on all the feedback I could find on the internet and by all accounts thus far (backers of the first Kickstarter for A Touch of Class) they are much improved!

 

[Justin Alexander]

I have to say that liking the comment of the guy pointing out that EN World's Kickstarters have a history of scamming their backers was not the response I was expecting from the EN World team. Thanks for the endorsement of my comments here, though!

 

[Mike Myler]

I have to say that repeating your spam messages on a Kickstarter after they (the website Kickstarter) delete them is not what I was expecting from someone who's backed so many projects. I'm not sure if they have a high tolerance for harassment (you know that Morrus doesn't!) but you've backed a lot of campaigns so consider this a sober suggestion from someone that's very pro-crowdfunding community that you might want to think about toning it down.

Also to clarify, I do not endorse your crusade against Morrus/EN World. He's been nothing but absolutely wonderful with me in every interaction we've ever had, even when disagreeing (something we do quite often). Thank you for pointing out that he and I are different people though.

 

[Justin Alexander]

Final bastion of the scam artists: Claiming that the real problem is the people talking about how they're scammers.

Fastest way for me to stop talking about how Morrus ripped me off? Tell Morrus to refund my money or send me the product he owes me. It's not rocket science. Only a scammer would be struggling to figure out the right thing to do here. Unfortunately, I see that Mike here shares Morrus' difficulty with basic ethics.

Like I said: Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Mike Myler]

I don't care what you do buddy, but I do care about the projects you might genuinely support in the future not getting your support because you've gotten yourself banned from Kickstarter. Thanks for taking my sober suggestion to not harass people as an opportunity to call my ethics into question!

 

[OHT]

Haha. Justin avoiding a question, what a surprise.

 

[CRKrueger]

1. Congrats Mike Myler on working on a successful Kickstarter.
2. If Morris offered a KS reward and refuses to honor it, he should be held accountable.

 

[Necrozius]

eatingpopcorn.gif

 

[Mike Myler]

1. Congrats Mike Myler on working on a successful Kickstarter.
2. If Morris offered a KS reward and refuses to honor it, he should be held accountable.

1. Thank you! ♥ I've been toiling on this for well over a year now (planning out the ATMC classes and such)
2. Anyone who offers a KS reward they don't deliver should be held accountable. That said, being owed something is not a license to turn into an unrepentant asshole, nor is it justified motivation to harass the person who owes you. Kickstarter isn't a marketplace. You are not buying anything with a pledge. You are making a charitable contribution with an expected but not at all mandatory return (leastwise that's how it works in Pennsylvania). I'm 100% confident that Morrus has fulfilled tens of thousands of Kickstarter rewards to people who did not go out of their way to be a dick to him. I myself have fulfilled thousands of pledges of my own and thankfully I've never had a toxic backer, but I know Morrus and do not begrudge him for finally choosing to ignore one.

(FYI champ here keeps spamming the project's comments with the exact same message, which is literally the first thing Kickstarter tells people not to do)

 

[robertsconley]

Civility is a quality to be prized and encouraged. And not to mince words, Justin is acting like a dick here and as consequence making it harder to resolve the issue by dragging in extraneous issues over his behavior.

The question remains why isn't Morrus fulfilling his pledge here?

From his kickstarter

Rebuilding EN World

We're building a new EN World after we were hacked in December. Please help us do that!

www.kickstarter.com

LIFER! A lifetime EN World silver subscriber account. Basically, you'll get PDFs of everything we ever make for if not your lifetime, certainly the lifetime of EN World.

Are the 199 backers (silver on up) getting every PDF that Enworld makes?

Seem like a simple question to me irregardless of the fact Justin is acting like a dick here. Irregardless of how nice of a person Morrus has been to people or what he has done with other projects.

Has Enworld given a PDF copy of everything they released since February 2013 to these backers?

As a followup is the latest kickstarter a Enworld release or not?

 

[Gringnr]

Regardless of how people think Justin is acting,

a) the squeaky wheel gets the grease

b) I'd be pissed off, too

c) anyone who thinks there is a such thing as lack of accountability on Kickstarter is confusing Kickstarter's ToS with real-life consequences (see Ken Whitman)

d) I may not agree entirely with Justin's tactics here, but calling him "toxic" seems like a cheap attempt to play the victim

e) sure, guilt by association sucks, but for a better way to handle it, see how everyone responded to the Zak S. scandal

Yo, Justin, if you can find anyone else who has been similarly affected, this might gain more traction.

 

[Endless Flight]

I encourage civility in this thread too. Thank you to those who are being constructive!

 

[Mike Myler]

d) I don't think his behavior (pledging to a Kickstarter in order to spam comments, spamming them again after Kickstarter deleted them, hitting up the forum here, and then intentionally misrepresenting me and denigrating who I am) is not-toxic behavior.

+1 for would like to know if there are any other backers who pledged at that level and aren't getting rewards. Apparently 176 people pledged at that level or the next higher-up Lifer reward level. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[robertsconley]

So I looked at the marketing here

A TOUCH MORE CLASS: 9 NEW CLASS FOR YOUR 5th EDITION GAME

Looked the past project that Morrus created

Morrus

Publishing tabletop roleplaying games since 2001, and veterans of over 25 successful Kickstarters totaling over a million dollars with a hard-earned reputation for fast and reliable delivery of rewards, EN Publishing is best known for the leading tabletop RPG news website EN World (enworld.org)...

www.kickstarter.com

Looked at the list of drivethruRPG under EnWorld Publishing sorted by Date Added

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Then looked the release starting after February 2013

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

So my question is has the 199 backers of silver on up received all the PDFs from Enworld Publishing starting with "To Slay a Dragon".

Which included A pdf of a Touch of Class a one point in 2017 but since been removed

DriveThruRPG.com - [5E] A Touch of Class (Revised): 7 New Classes for 5th Edition Reviews

www.drivethrurpg.com

Removed

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com