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CRKrueger said:
Kind of surprising you need to bring it up based on the recent Noman event. He was an ex-cop who was against police brutality and corruption who supported BLM yet was practically called a racist because he thought the way the Bundle was being handled broke the No Politics rule due to its overt nature.
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I'd have to go back and read those posts again, but I don't recall anyone calling Noman a racist, practically or otherwise. The end result of that debacle, if you recall, was me apologizing and saying that I handled it badly.

we all know that RPGs specifically designed as politics are going to be coming from one side only
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Pretty sure that's been disproven just in the last page.
 
I find it strange that folks have to suss out game designers’ political views, even if they don’t make them public, basing it on something they wrote somewhere or a way they phrased something. I don’t want to know and I don’t care.
 
I basically agree with CRKrueger CRKrueger here. But I'm against banning discussion of Stigmata for a reason that might only apply to me..
I don't want to grant the author an opportunity to claim being persecuted:shade:!
 
TristramEvans said:
I'd have to go back and read those posts again, but I don't recall anyone calling Noman a racist, practically or otherwise. The end result of that debacle, if you recall, was me apologizing and saying that I handled it badly.



Pretty sure that's been disproven just in the last page.
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”Designed as Politics”? Proven, huh?

The fragged guy being conservative doesn’t mean his game contains an ounce of his politics.

Ken Hite’s leans a little center right, where’s his “This Signal Boosts Fascists” game? He doesn’t have one, and hangs out with some of the most publicly left people in gaming.

Pundit makes his persona raging against the insertion of left politics, not the insertion of right politics. These are not the same thing, as you know.

Renaming the Catholic Church so as not to have everyone bring their baggage with them wasn’t political, we all know Pundit isn’t a Catholic and has very little use for organised religions.

Like I said, the current catalog of RPG as pure politics has two items. RaHoWa and Sigmata.
 
AsenRG said:
I basically agree with CRKrueger CRKrueger here. But I'm against banning discussion of Stigmata for a reason that might only apply to me..
I don't want to grant the author an opportunity to claim being persecuted:shade:!
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I wouldn't actually have an issue with that, as long as we ban any designer who uses culture war stuff as a major part of their marketing strategy. (Which as has been fairly pointed out would include Dan Fox).

So either would be fine with me. I just don't have a lot of time for the idea that we should convienently pretend that political marketing campaigns aren't part of what makes a rpg political.
 
CRKrueger said:
Like I said, the current catalog of RPG as pure politics has two items. RaHoWa and Sigmata.
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Serious question. Have you read Sigmata? I ask because it really doesn't come across as "pure politics" when you read the game, at least to me. And the interview with Dan Davenport would seem to bear that out. The designer describes it as a

SIGMATA: This Signal Kills Fascists” is a cyberpunk tabletop role-playing game about ethical insurgency against a fascist regime, taking place in a dystopian vision of 1980’s America.
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.

(I know this risks being an appeal to authority, but I also suspect Dan would be entirely disinterested in something that was nothing more than a political screed).
 
CRKrueger, since you feel there are no examples of an RPG with a right-wing disposition, and that any examples of such a game would be censored, and this is a bad thing, that leads to the inescapable question...

What exactly would the hypothetical subject matter of this right-wing RPG be?
 
Think Starship Troopers as the book was written - Fascist. Not dragging real politics into this place but you "can" have some damn nasty cultures in an RPG. Ringworld RPG has some very nasty subtexts about gender, trading and subservience.
 
Black Leaf said:
I wouldn't actually have an issue with that, as long as we ban any designer who uses culture war stuff as a major part of their marketing strategy. (Which as has been fairly pointed out would include Dan Fox).

So either would be fine with me. I just don't have a lot of time for the idea that we should convienently pretend that political marketing campaigns aren't part of what makes a rpg political.
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Eh, no, I'd be against that. We'd have too many corner cases. And I'd be against banning designers, just particular games:thumbsup:.
Like, I suppose the author of Sigmata can produce other games that might be interesting, and I'd prefer being able to discuss them. But Stigmata's setting is, to me, exactly as much beyond the pale as the Myfarog setting.

Again, I'm not running the forum, so this is just my opinion for the information of any interested parties:shade:.
 
Gabriel said:
CRKrueger, since you feel there are no examples of an RPG with a right-wing disposition, and that any examples of such a game would be censored, and this is a bad thing, that leads to the inescapable question...

What exactly would the hypothetical subject matter of this right-wing RPG be?
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I don’t think such a game being censored would be a bad thing. If the game is highly politicized, then it may, in and of itself, violate the No Politics rule. I have no idea what a Right-Wing RPG would look like.
I just know there will likely be an ever more extreme string of Left Wing RPGs and to talk about them because we’ll also allow the theoretical Right Wing RPG that will never materialise is...an odd stance to take.
No Politics doesn’t mean “allow discussion of games specifically designed for a political purpose because people like those politics”.
 
If you break down some very successful RPGs to their barest bones you might be surprised by what you get. I’m not going any further. People see what they want to see.
 
CRKrueger said:
Ok, catalog of three. RaHoWa was 2001, Myfarog 2013. You really think you’re going to see a Conservative/Right Wing RPG anytime soon?
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Ouch, can we not conflate White Nationalism with Conservative/Right Wing? I know the US has it's own... thing going on right now, but in my neck of the world, being against fascism is a conservative position.

To answer your question: I have no idea. I don't see any reason to assume that will always be the case.
 
Peter the Sane said:
Think Starship Troopers as the book was written - Fascist. Not dragging real politics into this place but you "can" have some damn nasty cultures in an RPG. Ringworld RPG has some very nasty subtexts about gender, trading and subservience.
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But are the makers of the Starship Troopers RPG detailing the world of the book or the movie?
Was Chaosium intending to promote the beliefs of Larry Niven and H.P. Lovecraft, or were they making games about people in those settings?
Intent matters, especially when there is no secret and the intent is clearly stated.
 
CRKrueger said:
Ok, catalog of three. RaHoWa was 2001, Myfarog 2013. You really think you’re going to see a Conservative/Right Wing RPG anytime soon?
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Sure. Why not? The barrier to entry is so incredibly low. As I've pointed out, you can even be an r p g dot net darling and put out an explicitly right-wing game.

But there's a difference between a game that is about...

wikipedia said:
Right-wing politics holds the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics, or tradition. Hierarchy and inequality may be viewed as natural results of traditional social differences or the competition in market economies. The term right-wing can generally refer to "the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system".
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...and a game that's about extreme right-wing politics...

wikipedia said:
Far-right politics can lead to oppression, violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing and even genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority, or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group, nation, state, national religion, dominant culture, or ultra-conservative traditional social institutions.
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You could probably make a solid argument that 3:16 features extreme-right-wing politics (It's literally a genocide simulator), and modern 40k pretty uncritically presents an extreme right-wing government as humanity's only hope - indeed, there are a few games where you explicitly play as it's secret police.

Meanwhile, SLA Industries covers the less extreme right-wing - hypercapitalism and a strict social order - and many post-apocalyptic games focus on keeping you and yours safe to the exclusion of others, in various ways. Games like Vampire can also easily shift when the PC's become strong enough to become the establishment, rather than rebelling against it.
 
The purpose of the "no politics" rules is simply to avoid divisive arguments. An attempt to define a list of the kinds of games that can hypothetically be talked about are exactly the kind of arguments the rule is seeking to avoid. Even if a game has a stated political agenda, I'm fine with it being discusses here as long as people don't get into arguing that agenda. And if they do, I'd rather mod the posters doing so than maintain a list of banned games that might be a problem one day in the future. That seems to invite endless debate about what games need to go on the list, with fresh arguments as new games come out. It would be a never-ending shit show, a political one at that.

Rather than talking about games without getting into politics, it invites people to find the politics in games to get them added to the list.
 
Ok, at the point where 40k is being put forth seriously as a Pro-Right Wing game, to compare to the political authorial intent of Sigmata, I’m done.

Thank God the Dalwhinnie isn’t all gone.
 
Ladybird said:
Sure. Why not? The barrier to entry is so incredibly low. As I've pointed out, you can even be an r p g dot net darling and put out an explicitly right-wing game.

But there's a difference between a game that is about...



...and a game that's about extreme right-wing politics...



You could probably make a solid argument that 3:16 features extreme-right-wing politics (It's literally a genocide simulator), and modern 40k pretty uncritically presents an extreme right-wing government as humanity's only hope - indeed, there are a few games where you explicitly play as it's secret police.

Meanwhile, SLA Industries covers the less extreme right-wing - hypercapitalism and a strict social order - and many post-apocalyptic games focus on keeping you and yours safe to the exclusion of others, in various ways. Games like Vampire can also easily shift when the PC's become strong enough to become the establishment, rather than rebelling against it.
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sorry, but that wikipedia entry is absolute nonsense. If you check the sources that they cite for that statement, it's very clear it was written by a heavily prejudiced member of the opposing side.
 
TristramEvans said:
sorry, but that wikipedia entry is absolute nonsense. If you check the sources that they cite for that statement, it's very clear it was written by a heavily prejudiced member of the opposing side.
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It lacks nuance, but I really only wanted a few quick sentences about right and extreme right; I was going for the same sort of thing as your post...

TristramEvans said:
Ouch, can we not conflate White Nationalism with Conservative/Right Wing? I know the US has it's own... thing going on right now, but in my neck of the world, being against fascism is a conservative position.
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...but I guess I didn't make that clear enough.
 
Dumarest said:
Just to be clear, is discussion of Toon verboten now? I mean, have you read between the lines of that game...?
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Absolutely. It has a clear political bias in favour of mice and against cats.
 
Ladybird said:
Fair point, but I really only wanted a couple of quick sentences to compare
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Well, here is the only common denominator seperating Right/Left Wing universally (all social and economic beliefs are subject to time period, location, and subgroups in charge, hence the reason that stances on social issues like racism have bounced between the parties over the years): The fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing ideologies center around the the rights of individuals vs. the power of the government.

So a game where government has absolute power and the game is against that is essentially Rightwing in essence (Sigmata, SLA industries, Shadowrun, Tribe 8, etc), whereas a game where there is a beneficial overall authority in charge of people's lives and that is presented as a good thing is essentially Leftwing in essence (40K if it wasn't a parody, Blue Rose, Starship Troopers if it doesn't adopt the satire of the film, etc).
 
Dumarest said:
Just to be clear, is discussion of Toon verboten now? I mean, have you read between the lines of that game...?
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Toon murders babies and suicides teens. It warps the minds of our children, and weakens the resolve of our allies.
 
TristramEvans said:
Well, here is the only common denominator seperating Right/Left Wing universally (all social and economic beliefs are subject to time period, location, and subgroups in charge, hence the reason that stances on social issues like racism have bounced between the parties over the years): The fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing ideologies center around the the rights of individuals vs. the power of the government.

So a game where government has absolute power and the game is against that is essentially Rightwing in essence (Sigmata, SLA industries, Shadowrun, Tribe 8, etc), whereas a game where there is a beneficial essential overall authority in charge of people's lives and that is presented as a good thing is essentially Leftwing in essence (40K if it wasn't a parody, Blue Rose, Starship Troopers if it doesn't adopt the satire of the film, etc).
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We're really down the rabbit hole now, but I don't think that's the case. I don't have much time for the actual political compass test, but I think the four axis model they use is broadly the right one. Libertarian/Authoritarian is separate to left/right. (Complicated by the fact hadly anyone identifies as authoritarian).
 
Black Leaf said:
Libertarian/Authoritarian is separate to left/right. (Complicated by the fact hadly anyone identifies as authoritarian).
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Only because of , as I said, issues of current trends, social issues, and ideaological groups in charge of the parties. Thats why being Rightwing in the early part of the 20th century is completely different than the later part. If you strip away all current hotbutton social issues, all ideologies, religious motives, etc, then what you are left with is a simple divide between the role of government.
 
On the Pub we've discussed Paranoia, Comrades, The Price of Freedom, Grim's John Norman game, Winninger's Underground, Dragonraid and DC Heroes Watchmen supplement, all games with overt politics with no issues because we're all adults with real-world perspective interested in having a conversation rather than scoring points with our tribe.

CK is trolling as usual, ignore him.
 
fuck, see, I'm arguing politics now.


My deepest apologies, it's very easy to slip into that mode and not even think about it these days. The Pub is supposed to be a respite from that.


I'm going to take a break for a while, get my head together. I'm not acting like The sort of Pubber that I want to be...
 
Voros said:
On the Pub we've discussed Paranoia, Comrades, The Price of Freedom, Grim's John Norman game, Winninger's Underground, Dragonraid and DC Heroes Watchmen supplement, all games with overt politics with no issues because we're all adults with real-world perspective interested in having a conversation rather than scoring points with our tribe.
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I treat everyone here the same way I would treat someone in the “real world”. I rarely talk politics unless I am acutely aware of how rational the other party is. This is one of the things that drives me crazy about other sites. I very much doubt those people have those types of conversations offline. If they do, I’m sure three letter words are not being uttered in every paragraph.
 
Endless Flight said:
I treat everyone here the same way I would treat someone in the “real world”. I rarely talk politics unless I am acutely aware of how rational the other party is. This is one of the things that drives me crazy about other sites. I very much doubt those people have those types of conversations offline. If they do, I’m sure three letter words are not being uttered in every paragraph.
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You need to stay inside. It's getting weird out there
 
TristramEvans said:
fuck, see, I'm arguing politics now.


My deepest apologies, it's very easy to slip into that mode and not even think about it these days. The Pub is supposed to be a respite from that.


I'm going to take a break for a while, get my head together. I'm not acting like The sort of Pubber that I want to be...
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Well, speaking for myself, I think you're fine. :smile: I don't see clarifying the abstract differences between political philosophies quite the same as "arguing politics." In any case, I'll let you off with a warning ... ;)
 
Dumarest said:
Hmm...the, and, for, are, but, not, you, all, any, can, had, her, was, one, our, out, day, get, has, him, his, how, man, new, now, old, see, two, way, who, boy, did, its, let, put, say, she, too, use! :clown:
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All better than what I’m thinking of.
 
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