The Oscars: Chris Rock and the Fresh Prints of Bel-Air

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Oh, boy. We finally got those breads and circuses they forgot to throw at us for 4 weeks of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
 
I still don’t know why Smith had a smile on his face as he was walking away from Rock.
 
David Johansen said:
There's a problem in the world where people can say things and then hide behind the law to avoid the consequences.
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Eeeehhh who defines the line that can get crossed? This invisible subjectivity line of “he deserved getting assaulted for words” is kind of dangerous and potentially victim blaming.

I’m not defending anyone in this charade for upper-class narcissistic scientologists, however.
 
chuckdee said:
We'll have to agree to disagree. When you have a condition that you have no control over, mocking that condition is punching down.
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I agree that the joke was in bad taste and hackish but can't get too worked up over it compared to the behaviour of Smith. At least he has now apologized, which is what he should have done in his speech. The whole incident is a mixture of nasty, absurd and pathetic.
 
Necrozius said:
Eeeehhh who defines the line that can get crossed?
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Isn't the answer there "we all do on an individual level, applying our own personal views and morality system"? The world is murky.
Necrozius said:
This invisible subjectivity line of “he deserved getting assaulted for words” is kind of dangerous and potentially victim blaming.
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I'd agree, but the "self defense only" position is equally dangerous.

I'm not someone who believes that words are violence, merely that there are times when it's an appropriate response to words.

If a kid has been verbally bullied for two years, is he really to be condemned for lashing out at his tormentors?
Voros said:
I agree that the joke was in bad taste and hackish but can't get too worked up over it compared to the behaviour of Smith. At least he has now apologized, which is what he should have done in his speech. The whole incident is a mixture of nasty, absurd and pathetic.
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The thing for me is that the joke has more ramifications than just the weird rich bubble that is the worlds of Rock and Smith.

Jeff Woytovich, founder of the Children’s Alopecia Project, said Smith’s conduct divided opinion.

He said: “The thing is, somebody said something that was negative to somebody who had a medical diagnosis of alopecia … and that happens to kids all over the world, every single day.” Woytovich said Rock’s comments were more than a harmless joke.

Woytovich said Rock’s “GI Jane” joke could be used by children to bully others.

“GI Jane could be used as a derogatory remark to a little girl with alopecia, and I just thought to myself [that] something as simple as a little joke could actually have such impact,” said Woytovich. He said the focus on Smith hitting Rock has taken away attention from raising awareness about the autoimmune condition.
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( From https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/29/chris-rock-will-smith-jada-pinkett-smith-alopecia )

That is the real issue here. What gets said on television ends up in the playground. (And from my perspective at least, the last line is the one thing that has actually made me think that Smith's behaviour was outrage worthy).
 
Necrozius said:
Eeeehhh who defines the line that can get crossed? This invisible subjectivity line of “he deserved getting assaulted for words” is kind of dangerous and potentially victim blaming.

I’m not defending anyone in this charade for upper-class narcissistic scientologists, however.
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Even if the words are "come at me bro?"

I think, sometimes, fist fight would make more sense than what goes on these days. The lawyers like the current system for some reason so you know that can't be good.
 
Black Leaf said:
I'm not someone who believes that words are violence, merely that there are times when it's an appropriate response to words.

If a kid has been verbally bullied for two years, is he really to be condemned for lashing out at his tormentors?
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That feels like it's heading down the road to justifying school shootings. Which I don't think is your intention, of course. But once the norm has been broken, it's hard to de-escalate.
 
One of the local news anchors this morning said that Chris Rock had no idea about Jada Pinkett Smith's medical issue.
 
Apparition said:
One of the local news anchors this morning said that Chris Rock had no idea about Jada Pinkett Smith's medical issue.
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I find that hard to believe. But even if so, you're being paid to write material that is potentially offensive. It seems that comedians should be held to higher standards to research their material when writing it. It was just a joke is not a valid excuse IMO.

George Carlin knew how to offend without making it personal. I really miss George Carlin.
 
Voros said:
I agree that the joke was in bad taste and hackish but can't get too worked up over it compared to the behaviour of Smith. At least he has now apologized, which is what he should have done in his speech. The whole incident is a mixture of nasty, absurd and pathetic.
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Like I said. Agree to disagree.

Black Leaf said:
( From https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/29/chris-rock-will-smith-jada-pinkett-smith-alopecia )

That is the real issue here. What gets said on television ends up in the playground. (And from my perspective at least, the last line is the one thing that has actually made me think that Smith's behaviour was outrage worthy).
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“In a world where bullying [and] suicide is prevalent, we have to stop acting like ableist jokes aren’t violent/harmful. We have to stop using black women for publicity punch lines as if we don’t have feelings. We can be fragile, vulnerable, [and] just be trying to make it to tomorrow too.”
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QFT from the article above.
 
chuckdee said:
George Carlin knew how to offend without making it personal. I really miss George Carlin.
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I love Carlin, but I'm also pretty sure he personally offended a lot of people (or would have, if they knew what he said). He may not have been one for going after specific individuals, but he could be pretty caustic towards certain groups.
 
The more I think about it, the more I don't think being rich has anything to do with it beyond that it's the only reason we're aware of it. Will Smith didn't get charged because Chris Rock didn't press charges, end of story.
 
Dyrnwyn said:
I love Carlin, but I'm also pretty sure he personally offended a lot of people (or would have, if they knew what he said). He may not have been one for going after specific individuals, but he could be pretty caustic towards certain groups.
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When I say personal, I mean just that. There's a way to do it without making it person-targeted.
 
chuckdee said:
When I say personal, I mean just that. There's a way to do it without making it person-targeted.
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Sorry, Carlin targeted people all the time in his comedy. Course they tended to be people like Nixon and Reagan (including Nancy) and politicans are the ultimate legit target but let's not pretend his attacks weren't overtly personal and very nasty.

And his attacks against those of different politics and in particular religion are smug and often very nasty. But like a lot of when we hear someone say things we agree with, no matter how falsely framed, we 'don't see the problem.'

That's one of my issues with the attempt to create 'acceptable' comedy using the punch up/down paradigm.

Although I largely agree with it in principle and don't have time for the standup excesses of Eddie Murphy, Andrew Dice Clay or more recently Chappelle, what exactly is up and what is down depends on your perspective and context. It isn't always as simple to determine as some claim.

For example, when Ishmael Reed as a black satrist mocked the black power movement is he 'punching down' or 'across?'

Or the Indigenous writer Gerald Vizenor and his fiction and non-fiction satire and criticism of some of the self-declared leaders in that community?

Some would say they are punching down (and how they dare so and be such traitors!), others 'across' or even arguably 'up' as these targets actually have a lot of undeclared power, especially within their community.

A similar question arises with the satire of a more recent writer like Torrey Peters.

Some find it offensive and 'punching down' others from the very communities they are part of don't.

The punch up/down paradigm can be weaponized by those within such communities to try and shutdown dissident voices who may be rightly mocking hypocrisy or outright grifters and charlatans within that community. Or just irony, ambiguity and complexity in art in general.

What is punching up/down/across is ultimately much more a matter of debate in many cases and even just taste and as someone said good taste is the enemy of art.

It is another example of a perfectly fine frame for discussion (like the Bechel 'test') being distorted by overly dogmatic application.

And in terms of Carlin, people have made him some kind of stand-up saint but I'm not buying it. Like a lot of political standups, Lenny Bruce and Bill Hicks are other examples, he also became very preachy later on and forgot to keep his rants funny.

To me Richard Pryor is a much better standup, never got the OTT Carlin love.
 
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I'm too tired of this and RL for a long reply, but I'll leave it with punching up and down is a really simple concept if you have empathy, which I think is one of the things comedians tend to leave at the door. Making it not a simple thing is really just obfuscation IMO.
 
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So I'm not going to post my opinion of the situation. However, I just saw this article that claims Rock dissed Smith backstage about playing Muhammed Ali, and not hitting him that hard. Figured I'd share and throw some new logs on the fire :clown:
 
Black Leaf said:
That is the real issue here. What gets said on television ends up in the playground.
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“You see, children? Sometimes violence IS the answer! Punching or slapping someone on behalf of someone else who’s been verbally insulted IS the right thing to do, especially if you have a vast audience watching! Don’t worry about getting into any trouble, or the moral/ethical dilemmas of eye-for-an-eye if YOU personally interpreted what they said as an invitation to attack them. What matters is that YOU are upset. Punch away.”

Also, violence never escalates the situation, amirite? Just like in the movies, you get up, deck the asshole and everyone applauded, right? Credits roll and the sun sets.
 
Necrozius said:
“You see, children? Sometimes violence IS the answer! Punching or slapping someone on behalf of someone else who’s been verbally insulted IS the right thing to do, especially if you have a vast audience watching! Don’t worry about getting into any trouble, or the moral/ethical dilemmas of eye-for-an-eye if YOU personally interpreted what they said as an invitation to attack them. What matters is that YOU are upset. Punch away.”

Also, violence never escalates the situation, amirite? Just like in the movies, you get up, deck the asshole and everyone applauded, right? Credits roll and the sun sets.
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Did you think Zangief Kid (or whatever the meme was back in the day where you were) was in the wrong? Of course, violence is not always the right answer. But to say it's always de facto wrong is equally absolutist. (Although I do respect full pacifists on this, who are consistent).

Also, again, a punch and a slap really aren't the same thing. I'd agree the former would have been a step too far.
 
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Black Leaf said:
Also, again, a punch and a slap really aren't the same thing. I'd agree the former would have been a step too far.
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Yesterday I was listening to Kevin Hart and his friends on Sirius Radio's "Straight from the Hart". One of them pointed out that to Black people, there are three things that are the absolute worst thing you can do to them:

1) Use the 'N' word
2) Spit on them
3) Slap them

They were saying that all three go back to the days of slavery, when each of those was a common experience. They claimed that a slap is far worse than a punch, as it was a straight-up sign of disrespect.

Another one shared an interesting anecdote: he had read Will Smith's biography and said that in the early chapters Smith explained how he grew up in a home where his father beat his mother. He felt like a coward as he never intervened, even though his siblings did. This person then said that perhaps some of this is what caused Smith to snap.
 
Majestic said:
Another one shared an interesting anecdote: he had read Will Smith's biography and said that in the early chapters Smith explained how he grew up in a home where his father beat his mother. He felt like a coward as he never intervened, even though his siblings did. This person then said that perhaps some of this is what caused Smith to snap.
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I can see that. What struck me (and people read it differently) was that when the joke hit, Will sat there gave a polite laugh and a polite clap. Then the media panned to Jada, and he saw on the huge screen how much it affected her. And he snapped. And in that moment, he reacted inappropriately.
 
Fuck that noise. The Godfather tribute made me want to see the theatrical te-release something fierce. (Even though I’ve see the first two movies literally dozens of times.)
 
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