D&D: is it the gateway game for the rest of the hobby?

[Fenris-77]

Just to throw this out there, I think that past WotC the company that's really doing a great job as a gateway to various games is Free League. The quality of their games and their canny acquisition of some famous IPs has garnered them quite a following. Beyond that they have their core Year Zero Engine which makes it easier for new players to flip between their core games without having to learn completely new mechanics. They've also publish non-YZE stuff like Mork Borg and Into the Odd that are the sorts of games that would have probably past unremarked (or less remarked) had they been published by a smaller company.

Edit: This was meant as an index to what WotC could be doing but isn't in that same regard.

 

[DeadBob]

Weird tangent, but thinking about it, if something were meant as a gateway game, making it balanced for 1player (possibly 2 players)/1 GM and the offering Party Play as an advanced variant would make a certain amount of sense.

 

[SavAce]

That's just the B part, the X book is another 64, together they come out to 128 pages. The basic 5e rule books clocks in at 180 pages, that's very comparable. Compared to say AD&D 2e on the other hand, 5e is often lighter. For instance there are no rules for different damage types effectiveness against armor, travel speed is just affected by terrain being difficult or not rather than by many different types of terrain and weather, everything is handled by the same kind of roll rather than many different ones etc. Sometimes 5e is more complicated too, the classes are definitely one of those, with all 5e classes being a lot more complex than most AD&D classes. Of course compared to 3.x 5e is a lot simpler.

Aye, you are right that B/X is 128 pages. Oops. I still feel B/X is the lighter option over the WotC "Combat encounters and classes built to pop off powers during those encounters" approach, and it somehow feels like a more complete game, but I'm solidly into personal opinion territory.

 

[AsenRG]

Aye, you are right that B/X is 128 pages. Oops. I still feel B/X is the lighter option over the WotC "Combat encounters and classes built to pop off powers during those encounters" approach, and it somehow feels like a more complete game, but I'm solidly into personal opinion territory.

Do these 128 pages include the DMG material, or do they require an extra book?

 

[raniE]

Aye, you are right that B/X is 128 pages. Oops. I still feel B/X is the lighter option over the WotC "Combat encounters and classes built to pop off powers during those encounters" approach, and it somehow feels like a more complete game, but I'm solidly into personal opinion territory.

I think B/X is definitely a more rules light game than full 5e, but that was true when comparing it to AD&D during the 80s as well. Compared to the basic rules, the comparison is less clear, though I think B/X is still a more rules light game, it isn't as clear cut (B/X definitely has more stuff in it about dungeon design and wilderness adventure than the 5e basic rules do though).

 

[Voros]

Err, I just grabbed the 5e PH and it clocks in around 300 pages alone.

What comparison is being made again?

Here's a thread about the wordcount of different editions and games, a much more accurate metric than page count since that doesn't take into consideration artwork, font size, etc.

It doesn't tell you how well written, clear or well designed the game is but the mere comparison of pages is not an accurate metric of that either.

RPGs Charted by Word Count

A great chart sorting various RPGs by word count showing that some of the OSR complaints about modern rule sets being overwritten are...let's say, selective. I'm not just posting the chart here so people have to actually read the context and other considerations (PF doesn't include the bestiary...

www.rpgpub.com

 

[Moonglum]

One of my (many!) favorite things about OSE is the relative restraint when it comes to word count, blather and general text bloat. It is exceptionally direct and streamlined in its approach, and the payoff is a set of books that are actually useful at the table.

 

[dragoner]

I see D&D sets at walmart here, it is fairly ubiquitous.

 

[Voros]

One of my (many!) favorite things about OSE is the relative restraint when it comes to word count, blather and general text bloat. It is exceptionally direct and streamlined in its approach, and the payoff is a set of books that are actually useful at the table.

One advantage that OSE has is it assumes the reader is familiar with rpgs and D&D in particular, so it is largely designed for reference.

Whereas other games attempt to explain the game in more basic terms, there's always a tension between these kind of rpgs as a teaching tool and as a gaming at the table tool.

I think B/X does a better job than most at explaining the game AND it manages to be concise and clearly written. But in terms of a teaching tool it was trumped by the Red Box imo.

That's why some companies, including the aforementioned Free League have been smart to release starter boxes. Although I have a sneaking suspicion that many, perhaps even the majority, of those purchasing those 'starter' sets are experienced tabletop gamers.

 

[sharps54]

Do these 128 pages include the DMG material, or do they require an extra book?

They are all inclusive, PHB, DMG and MM

 

[lategamer]

I see D&D sets at walmart here, it is fairly ubiquitous.

That’s kinda what I mean.
It’s the only rpg available in many cases, it has a movie, references in popular TV, hit podcasts and literally celebrities playing it.
And it’s 60% of the market.

which makes me think that it’s not as good as it thinks it is and people who get into it, stay in it.

 

[sharps54]

So basically this whole thread was complaining that you don’t like other people’s choices?

 

[Telok]

So basically this whole thread was complaining that you don’t like other people’s choices?

Isn't that something like 2/3rds of the forums & blogs internet these days?

 

[AsenRG]

They are all inclusive, PHB, DMG and MM

Then the right comparison is NOT with the PHB, much less the restricted starter document, but with the entire three books of PHB, DMG and MM.

 

[rumble]

So basically this whole thread was complaining that you don’t like other people’s choices?

That's pretty much the point of every thread, TBH.

 

[AsenRG]

That's pretty much the point of every thread, TBH.

Err, I fail to see how a lot of the threads on the first page here wouldn't put the lie to that...
A lot of threads, sure.

 

[dragoner]

That’s kinda what I mean.
It’s the only rpg available in many cases, it has a movie, references in popular TV, hit podcasts and literally celebrities playing it.
And it’s 60% of the market.

which makes me think that it’s not as good as it thinks it is and people who get into it, stay in it.

Do they? I mean it is what it is, my interactions with people today is someone showed my book (cepheus engine/traveller) to a nurse and she said it looked too complicated for her. I don't know if that is true, though is is information dense like an engineering document. Another friend texted me a game they are playing, pbta, and we messaged about it. I am pretty sure D&D brings money into the hobby so we have the things that we do like dtrpg, and stuff like gencon. In some ways I am ambivalent about it as a system, I prefer the older versions, my Holmes with the other versions as attachments. Though I think it is interesting to see the rise of the 5e grognard, repeating things about OneD&D that were said about earlier versions. D&D takes up less of my gaming time though, and last time I ran a D&D module, I ran it with Mythras:

 

[raniE]

Then the right comparison is NOT with the PHB, much less the restricted starter document, but with the entire three books of PHB, DMG and MM.

No it isn’t, the correct comparison is with the aforementioned basic rules of 180 pages. That’s a full game, it’s the modern day B/X the same way the full PHB, DMG and MM is the equivalent of AD&D.

 

[lategamer]

I am pretty sure D&D brings money into the hobby so we have the things that we do like dtrpg, and stuff like gencon.

I know what you mean and those are good things.
But I think D&D funnels money out of the hobby into bigger, wider ovens.
This is why they think D&D is undermonetised. Making that statement after a surge in popularity, imminently before a worldwide movie release (that actually looks decent) … is a strange position.

D&D the brand is probably adequately monetised.
D&D the actual game itself is probably almost a loss leader in comparison to other Hasbro lines.
I have no evidence for this. Just my gut.

 

[TJS]

But I think D&D funnels money out of the hobby into bigger, wider ovens.

What are these?

 

[Bunch]

I know what you mean and those are good things.
But I think D&D funnels money out of the hobby into bigger, wider ovens.
This is why they think D&D is undermonetised. Making that statement after a surge in popularity, imminently before a worldwide movie release (that actually looks decent) … is a strange position.

D&D the brand is probably adequately monetised.
D&D the actual game itself is probably almost a loss leader in comparison to other Hasbro lines.
I have no evidence for this. Just my gut.

I would be D&D is a net money into the system. From a game stores perspective I'm only going to add tier 2 systems to my RPG section if tier 1 is selling well. And tier 3 only if tier 2 sells well.
Dice for D&D means more dice options for every other standard dice system. Minis likewise, dice towers, etc. D&D as a major line is like Magic. It pays rent so I can try other things to make money.

 

[dragoner]

I know what you mean and those are good things.
But I think D&D funnels money out of the hobby into bigger, wider ovens.
This is why they think D&D is undermonetised. Making that statement after a surge in popularity, imminently before a worldwide movie release (that actually looks decent) … is a strange position.

D&D the brand is probably adequately monetised.
D&D the actual game itself is probably almost a loss leader in comparison to other Hasbro lines.
I have no evidence for this. Just my gut.

I have a degree in business? Management, and am a certified financial manager. Under-monetized sounds like loot crates or NFT's. I don't know, it's probably just a nice sound bite for stockholders and investors, restating the fact they are exploring ways to make more money, which every business is already doing. Afaik D&D is one of their better lines, they are probably looking at selling more licensed products. I don't really have a lot of feelings about it. I'm sure they are netting millions of that starter set in walmart, it's a prime: product, price, placement everything. It has inertia now, I don't think it is going anywhere, even if they screw it up they can back pedal to 5e.

Gateway sounds like the old drug wars jargon, I know they called pot the gateway drug, and it probably was; I mean I saw "Sex, Drugs, and Democracy" about Amsterdam. Totally trying to sell how pot had built a wall against harder drugs, though once in Amsterdam, you could see people shoot up in public, and buy lines of coke at bars for 10 guilders, so there was no wall. If D&D is the gateway here, I don't think there is a wall, I think there is just less of a lifestyle around the other games.

 

[TJS]

I would think WotC's business people are looking at the sheer amount of activity being generated by D&D - youtube videos, streaming games, art being posted on reddit, general internet discussion and advice etc.

That's an awful lot of activity. I suspect from a business perspective they are probably looking at that and thinking for all that activity most people involved aren't spending all that much money on D&D or at least, if they are it is not going to WotC.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that people who spend that much energy and time engaged with D&D might also be willing to spend more of their money on it as well so long as you can find something for them to spend that money on.

Just think about how much money people involved in organised sporting activities often fork out over the course of a year.

 

[dragoner]

From looking at recent hires, it looks like they are going to try to expand in the digital market, though not being a digital company, I think it is a big risk. I did see people set up a dice tray with their phone on a stand and play that way, it looked pretty cool. I'm less enamored of the vtt's and battle-map style of play though, that is just me being old maybe.

 

[TristramEvans]

I'll just note that I have no issue whatsoever with them trying to monetize D&D further, merchandise their asses off if that's what they want.Like why does Hasbro not have a line of D&D action figures? I know the cartoon ones are coming but that's just the gip of the iceberg - Strahd. Drizzle the Dark elf guy. 10-pack of the Heroes of the Lance. Dark Sun figures. Hell. I'd be all-in for some Planescape action figures. Gimme a 8 inch Lady of Pain! Do a Tiamat figure through Haslab.

But get the game right first and foremost. Put out a real Starter Set. Don't try to shove every option into the core rules. And don't try to use the OGL to leach off of other creator's.

 

[dragoner]

There is a lawyer on reddit who says the OGL is practically unenforceable anyways, I bought his IP guide: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/368170/Intellectual-Property-in-RPGs
Corporations are going to corporate, D&D is a corporate product, I think their biggest asset is their distribution network. I am also surprised they do not have more of an official presence at gencon.

 

[Vile Traveller]

I am also surprised they do not have more of an official presence at gencon.

I continue to be surprised that they don't run their own WizardCon.

 

[dragoner]

I continue to be surprised that they don't run their own WizardCon.

It can travel around, be like the Grateful Dead show of cons; I wonder what would be the D&D equivalent of a Deadhead?

 

[Rogerdee]

B/X D&D is like 64 pages of rules, I dunno if we can call the 1,000 pages plus of 5e "lighter than previous editions" in comparison, or more open to GM fiat.

It isn't a 1,000 pages of rules, not really.
There are classes, feats, magic, etc.
The actual rules are far less than that I would say.

What DnD, and PF have another issue with is simply too many monsters. Look at Modern Age, or Fantasy Age - the different planar subtypes is trimmed right down to Celestial, djinn, and demon, with a demon lord. How easy is that?

 

[Rogerdee]

There is a lawyer on reddit who says the OGL is practically unenforceable anyways, I bought his IP guide: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/368170/Intellectual-Property-in-RPGs
Corporations are going to corporate, D&D is a corporate product, I think their biggest asset is their distribution network. I am also surprised they do not have more of an official presence at gencon.

What's All This About The OGL Going Away?

This last week I've seen videos, tweets, and articles all repeating an unsourced rumour that the OGL (Open Gaming License) will be going away with the advent of OneD&D, and that third party publishers would have no way of legally creating compatible material. I wanted to write an article...

www.enworld.org

OGL FAQ

There’s a lot of misinformation here and elsewhere about the current Open Gaming License (things like “it prohibits software” - it does not; and plenty of other things). Anybody can read the OGL. Much of the misinformation shows that some people haven’t actually looked at it...

www.enworld.org

Statement on OGL from WotC

Wizards of the Coast has made a short statement regarding the ongoing rumors surrounding OneD&D and the Open Gaming License. In a short response to Comicbook.com, the company said "We will continue to support the thousands of creators making third-party D&D content with the release of One D&D in...

www.enworld.org

WotC Announces OGL 1.1 -- Revised Terms, Royalties, and Annual Revenue Reporting

There has been a lot of speculation recently about WotC's plans regarding the Open Gaming License and the upcoming One D&D. Today, WotC shared some information. In short, they will be producing a new Open Gaming License (note that the previous OGL 1.0a will still exist, and can still be used)...

www.enworld.org

These are article on it from Enworld.

 

[dragoner]

What's All This About The OGL Going Away?

This last week I've seen videos, tweets, and articles all repeating an unsourced rumour that the OGL (Open Gaming License) will be going away with the advent of OneD&D, and that third party publishers would have no way of legally creating compatible material. I wanted to write an article...

www.enworld.org

OGL FAQ

There’s a lot of misinformation here and elsewhere about the current Open Gaming License (things like “it prohibits software” - it does not; and plenty of other things). Anybody can read the OGL. Much of the misinformation shows that some people haven’t actually looked at it...

www.enworld.org

Statement on OGL from WotC

Wizards of the Coast has made a short statement regarding the ongoing rumors surrounding OneD&D and the Open Gaming License. In a short response to Comicbook.com, the company said "We will continue to support the thousands of creators making third-party D&D content with the release of One D&D in...

www.enworld.org

WotC Announces OGL 1.1 -- Revised Terms, Royalties, and Annual Revenue Reporting

There has been a lot of speculation recently about WotC's plans regarding the Open Gaming License and the upcoming One D&D. Today, WotC shared some information. In short, they will be producing a new Open Gaming License (note that the previous OGL 1.0a will still exist, and can still be used)...

www.enworld.org

These are article on it from Enworld.

Indeed I read those over there when they were posted, and they basically concur with what the lawyer said, the OGL only gives some vague accessibility to saying a game is compatible (if that even) and to copy certain text verbatim. See at the original time it was written, there were rulings, such as tapping magic cards, that were trademarked, however most legal authorities think that was a bad decision. So in reality, as long as one doesn't make a copy of the text, you could make a clone of D&D, because mechanics are not able to be copyrighted or trademarked.

 

[DeadBob]

It isn't a 1,000 pages of rules, not really.
There are classes, feats, magic, etc.
The actual rules are far less than that I would say.

What DnD, and PF have another issue with is simply too many monsters. Look at Modern Age, or Fantasy Age - the different planar subtypes is trimmed right down to Celestial, djinn, and demon, with a demon lord. How easy is that?

To a complete newcomer, at least as I experienced it in the early 80s, even 64 pages of rules is quite daunting.

That you really aren't expected to digest all of that before play begins, or that pretty much all of the core mechanics could be summarized on a one-page QRF, really doesn't change that perception.

(I suspect some of that may be just excuse making for character-only players too)

 

[Rogerdee]

To a complete newcomer, at least as I experienced it in the early 80s, even 64 pages of rules is quite daunting.

That you really aren't expected to digest all of that before play begins, or that pretty much all of the core mechanics could be summarized on a one-page QRF, really doesn't change that perception.

(I suspect some of that may be just excuse making for character-only players too)

Best game for short rules is Lords of Gossamer which is essentially a narrative system based on four attributes.

 

[lategamer]

I have a degree in business? Management, and am a certified financial manager.

I have no idea why this disclosure was made. This isn't AA and it's hardly relevant.

Under-monetized sounds like loot crates or NFT's. I don't know, it's probably just a nice sound bite for stockholders and investors, restating the fact they are exploring ways to make more money, which every business is already doing. Afaik D&D is one of their better lines, they are probably looking at selling more licensed products.

I believe it will hinge on OneD&D. Like how you can't make a character on D&D Beyond without buying digital versions of the supplements needed for the feats or whatever. They want ALL of the D&D games running on their VTT, all charges going through their subscription service. Every player will need their own PHB and Tashas whatever. It's even possible it'll be the ONLY place to buy digital D&D books. Makes me wonder what will happen to the DriveThru/Roll20 merger.

Gateway sounds like the old drug wars jargon, I know they called pot the gateway drug, and it probably was; I mean I saw "Sex, Drugs, and Democracy" about Amsterdam. Totally trying to sell how pot had built a wall against harder drugs, though once in Amsterdam, you could see people shoot up in public, and buy lines of coke at bars for 10 guilders, so there was no wall. If D&D is the gateway here, I don't think there is a wall, I think there is just less of a lifestyle around the other games.

As a metaphor, I used it. non-ironically. It can be a gateway game and, as others said, it can also be a gatekeeper.

My gateway was White Dwarf 55.

 

[Grognard GM]

It used to be, up until about 4E. It was the game that drew most players in, although even then, a good percentage fossilised in to only ever playing D&D.

But for many people it was a gateway to the larger hobby. I grew up in Britain, and although people played D&D, it wasn't the gateway game it is in the states. WFRP 1st edition was what drew me in personally. I know in Japan Call Of Cthulhu is the gateway game.

Unfortunately the people 5E "brings in to the hobby" are not gamers, they're just 5E players. A lot of them can't build a character without software help, never GM, don't even know the rules well. Of course there are people still entering the hobby from 5E, but I'd call them a minority.

My yardstick is "would you have become a gamer when the way in was a middle aged guy with a dusty boxed set, and a strange funk?" If the answer is no, if you'd never play a game that wasn't on CriticalRole, if you own more D&D plushies than you do D&D books, then you're just riding a fad; and when the bubble bursts, 5E books will be swamping Ebay for pennies.

TLDR: D&D 5E is currently a great gateway to D&D 5E, and that's it. The tide raises no other ships.

 

[Fenris-77]

Welcome to the Pub Grognard GM !

 

[Bunch]

I have no idea why this disclosure was made. This isn't AA and it's hardly relevant.



I believe it will hinge on OneD&D. Like how you can't make a character on D&D Beyond without buying digital versions of the supplements needed for the feats or whatever. They want ALL of the D&D games running on their VTT, all charges going through their subscription service. Every player will need their own PHB and Tashas whatever. It's even possible it'll be the ONLY place to buy digital D&D books. Makes me wonder what will happen to the DriveThru/Roll20 merger.



As a metaphor, I used it. non-ironically. It can be a gateway game and, as others said, it can also be a gatekeeper.

My gateway was White Dwarf 55.

I dont think WotC cares if they get everyone on a VTT or subscription but they want as many as they can get. I dont think its going to be something they have to push actually. Lots of people prefer the app and don't really want a bunch of books cluttering up their homes. They prefer apps and electronic delivery. I suspect they wont even require a full Tashas. They will sell individual classes/races like they do now. For some that's going to be a lower barrier to entry. $2 a month or $2 for a partial purchase vs $40 for a whole book. It will get updated automatically like they are used to with everything in their life. I still don't know whether they will exclude other VTTs. For now they are saying existing licenses will continue. I suspect they think their offering tailored specifically to 5e will out compete everyone else. Certainly for new DM's. I think they're probably correct on that.

 

[Grognard GM]

I'd like to play the great games of the 2020s rather than the great games of the 80s. I've played the latter to death.

Serious question, not a troll: How can you play a game to death? The system is just a vehicle for stories, how do you run out of stories?

 

[Nick J]

Serious question, not a troll: How can you play a game to death? The system is just a vehicle for stories, how do you run out of stories?

I think it depends on the mechanics involved. I find some RPG mechanics to be a lot like a puzzle-box, where system mastery and finding all of the hidden optimization (and avoiding trap builds) is half of the design/play goal. As a person who mostly GMs I definitely prefer systems that sort of recede into the background, but I can understand players who like the other style.

 

[Grognard GM]

For me, D&D is like the Ford Model T, Magic Lantern, or the Wright Flyer. I respect it for getting things started, but I much prefer the superior innovations that followed after.