D&D: is it the gateway game for the rest of the hobby?

[DeadBob]

My minis solution back during the brief period that I ran D&D 3.0 and 3.5 was to create the tabletop equivalent of VTT tokens. I'd make a Word document full of pictures, print it on label paper, punch out the individual pictures using a circle punch, and then stick the labels on 1" plastic counting chips.

Cheap, relatively quick, quite durable, and super easy to store. I did the same thing if I wanted to use minis in games like Savage Worlds or GURPS.

It's a really good solution for when you want the positional/space/time/maneuver aspects, but only want a bit of the tactile and inspirational art aspects.

It also travels well, which is important if you're the GM and going elsewhere to run the game, and can be done on a not too huge budget.

It reminds me a bit f the thick cardboard pieces that came with FASERIP TSR MSH.

ETA:
Putting aside that I like miniatures for miniatures (and not merely markers) for a moment, I really do feel like games that are really pushing TotM should...push it. As in, design with the idea that there is going to be either no map and verbal description only (or a very simple map that is never meant to have markers paced on it).

OTOH, if you are going to design with very specific movement and ranges and areas of effect and so on, lean into that too and shamelessly.

Also, really consider whether all of that miniatures stuff needs to be quite so finicky. There are far less finicky-ass mechanics in both board games that use miniatures and straight miniatures skirmish rules. Even TSR's MSH knew how to do functional area movement/fighting, for example. That WotC has gone back to a 1" grid is...ewwww.

I will say that, from an advertising by visual appeal aspect, minis or nice boardgame positional components are appealing.

Taking the rules, ignoring bunches of that related stuff isn't wrong-wrong, but it is coming from an advanced/evolved/experienced place in the hobby. A beginner product should probably go one way or the other (all-in or all-out on that stuff).

 

[carpocratian]

These days, when it comes to minis, I go for the easy-to-transport-and-store option. I have two sets of these in two colors - red and blue - so 40 total:

Amazon product

I made a set of little foldover templates for appropriately-sized creatures (humanoids, large humanoids, large but long critters, etc.) in Microsoft Publisher, put pictures on them (found online), and put little sequential numbers along the bottom to make them easier to reference during battles. I print them out on cardstock, cut them out, and fold them over. I can get 21 double-sided 28mm-ish humanoid ones on a single sheet of cardstock. I even did a set that was just big numbers, without pictures, for oddball things. I put them all into groups using alligator clips and have them in a little plastic box in my game bag. If I need an orc group/army, I just pull out the orc set and set up as many as I need. The same for gnolls, soldiers, goblins, and other common critters. I have a couple of big ones (ogres, dragons, etc.), too. That way I can carry around hundreds and hundreds of minis at a time in a single pocket of my game bag.

I only use minis and grid mats for battles, and even then only if there are a lot of opponents and the game is the type that gives definite bonuses for exact positioning (ex. 5E). Outside of that, I do all theater of the mind.

 

[Telok]

My minis solution back during the brief period that I ran D&D 3.0 and 3.5 was to create the tabletop equivalent of VTT tokens. I'd make a Word document full of pictures, print it on label paper, punch out the individual pictures using a circle punch, and then stick the labels on 1" plastic counting chips.

Cheap, relatively quick, quite durable, and super easy to store. I did the same thing if I wanted to use minis in games like Savage Worlds or GURPS.

I did something similar. Took the .bmp files from an old shareware dungeon crawler, increased size, sorted them onto a page size, color printed, then glue stick them onto a bunch of 1"x1" balsa wood flats from the local hobby store. Stick a number in a corner to track individuals, color swaps for differences in you need more.

Still have them. Biggest benefit I found was flipping them over when they went down. It tracked the pile of bodies on the floor in a way nothing else could. Made players feel better and after three of them I declared it difficult terrain. Although if they got over six in a hex and stuck their mini on top they got the higher ground bonus.

 

[Voros]

There are cool paper minis on DTRPG:

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

The fellow who runs the Printable Heroes blog also creates cool paper minis and most of them are free:

Printable Heroes

Printable Heroes is a place to find free, original, print & play character and monster miniatures for tabletop gaming. Miniature Catalog

www.tumblr.com

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[deflagratio]

The key things about gateways is they need to be easy to get through, or you have gatekeepers instead. For any hobby, a gateway needs to be a low cost and low effort way for people to experience the hobby and decide if it's right for them. Low effort has two components: discovery, and engagement. It needs to be easy to learn that the hobby exists and it needs to be easy and cheap to get started. RPG's in general have a tough time with discovery as most RPG's are only available through specialty retailers and only discussed in hobbyist circles. The only chance for organic discovery is with people already involved in nerd culture visiting specialist shops and specialist events. There's only so much that can be done to help with the ease of engagement, because not only does someone need to decide they are interested, but they also need to convince 2-4 friends they are also interested. The other common gateway is an experienced friend brings them in. This seems to be the universal story for everyone who started with a game other than D&D.

D&D is the gateway by virtue of ease of discovery. It's place in the pop culture zeitgeist is undisputed and WoTC encourages this with products like the various starter kits that provide lower cost and simplified rules creating lower effort engagement. It's better to spend $20 and 4-5 hours and learning you don't like something versus spending $85 on 3 tomes and a week to learn the same. D&D Also acts as a gateway by virtue of some of it's flaws. Because it focuses on a very specific genre, it leads to people seeking out ways to play other genres. In todays world that leads to the internet where at the very least all conversations will include mention of Pathfinder, and now the existence of an entire industry is revealed. The 3rd party market does keep many people from ever leaving the D&D Sphere because they answer the question of how to play something else besides high fantasy dungeon crawler, but they learn that there are people making games beyond just WoTC.

 

[Acmegamer]

These days, when it comes to minis, I go for the easy-to-transport-and-store option. I have two sets of these in two colors - red and blue - so 40 total:

Amazon product

I made a set of little foldover templates for appropriately-sized creatures (humanoids, large humanoids, large but long critters, etc.) in Microsoft Publisher, put pictures on them (found online), and put little sequential numbers along the bottom to make them easier to reference during battles. I print them out on cardstock, cut them out, and fold them over. I can get 21 double-sided 28mm-ish humanoid ones on a single sheet of cardstock. I even did a set that was just big numbers, without pictures, for oddball things. I put them all into groups using alligator clips and have them in a little plastic box in my game bag. If I need an orc group/army, I just pull out the orc set and set up as many as I need. The same for gnolls, soldiers, goblins, and other common critters. I have a couple of big ones (ogres, dragons, etc.), too. That way I can carry around hundreds and hundreds of minis at a time in a single pocket of my game bag.

I only use minis and grid mats for battles, and even then only if there are a lot of opponents and the game is the type that gives definite bonuses for exact positioning (ex. 5E). Outside of that, I do all theater of the mind.

Amusing, me too. Last set I snagged was in 2016.

 

[TJS]

I bought the 4e starter box cheap on ebay specifically for the included pogs.

 

[Mankcam]

Although I love the look of painted minature figurines and terrain, I rarely use them in a game as they break immersion for us.
They are great in wargames and board games, but not for me when I run rpgs.
In fact I don't own any minis, the only time we have used them was when friends brought their minis over.

The closest thing I have is blank plastic tokens that I can write on with a non-permanent marking pen; they do the job just as well.
This is what I occasionally use: 'Tactical Tokens'

I wouldn't use these mini tokens for more than 10% of my sessions, I'm just not a tactical GM, I'm more on the narrator-end of things.
I don't think minis (figurines or tokens) have really added much to any of my group's rpg experiences, including D&D. It just tends to remind us that we are in a game, rather than an immersive story

 

[raniE]

Harsh in what way? I enjoy discussing different ways to do things in game and see different ways people do things, I actually play exclusively theather of the mind with basically every other game I play, I actually don't even have normal miniatures aside from paper ones because they are expensive and I would rather keep my kidneys for important stuff like the new edition Runequest.

I already got one person to put me on ignore in this thread, I'd like to avoid more people doing it.

 

[Degeneration roller]

I already got one person to put me on ignore in this thread, I'd like to avoid more people doing it.

I can handle different opinions just fine, besides I'm not even an experienced GM, I've only ran OSE a couple of times with a couple of Masquerade one shots, hearing a different take is always useful.

 

[Degeneration roller]

Although I love the look of painted minature figurines and terrain, I rarely use them in a game as they break immersion for us.
They are great in wargames and board games, but not for me when I run rpgs.
In fact I don't own any minis, the only time we have used them was when friends brought their minis over.

The closest thing I have is blank plastic tokens that I can write on with a non-permanent marking pen; they do the job just as well.
This is what I occasionally use: 'Tactical Tokens'

I wouldn't use these mini tokens for more than 10% of my sessions, I'm just not a tactical GM, I'm more on the narrator-end of things.
I don't think minis (figurines or tokens) have really added much to any of my group's rpg experiences, including D&D. It just tends to remind us that we are in a game, rather than an immersive story

I mostly use paper ones, they are cheap and won't make me hallucinate my wallet calling me an asshole if they are lost or damaged, I'm trying to get the hang of roll20 for map making but it is proving excedingly difficult for my limited brain capacity, I think I will just draw the maps myself and then scan them, it will be faster than trying to learn to use mapmaking software.

I prefer storytelling myself, truth be told I never liked tactics or combat in general in games (although I will say that rolling 10 successes on a soak roll in masquerade, never fails to give me a boner, I know I'm weird), seeing how the story goes is always the most interesting part.

 

[Rogerdee]

Not read the rest of the thread, but yes, 5e, is certainly a good vehicle for entry into playing RPG's due to its lighter ruleset than previous editions, and also that it allows GM fiat more so than other versions. Looking at you Pathfinder 1e, which had a rule for well everything. Plus all the different settings help, in that there are a wide array of different types of games, whether S&S, High Fantasy, and Science Fiction. And there are a ton more coming out - so it is all good.

On a slight tangent, and I know we love these here.

The think the only two issues I have are the classes, in that there do not need to be that many. And that spell slots hinder the actual feel of some genres of games especially when you want fantasy supers meaning you have to steer towards other 5e settings which do away with this, e.g. Aeltaltis which gives each level of magic-user so many points, as well as allowing players to caste above their level - albeit with penalty. Or other D20 products like M&M in which PP is not present. Personally I feel like a combination of say 5e, SotDL stats, and maybe classes, in that there are various tiers. That would be a vast improvement, and removing magic from all the classes. In that it only becomes available at certain tiers. That said if you remove Rage magic from a Barbarian, you essentially have a fighter that may be a beserker.

Overall I feel 5e is a vast improvement over the old, and we also have A5E currently, which is a bit crunchier than standard 5e for those that want more on that score. Plus the classes are more interesting, removing certain aspects present in 5e.

 

[TJS]

I don't think there's any doubt that 5e is a very big gate that sees a lot of traffic.

The problem for the rest of the hobby is that almost everyone who comes through seems to spend just about all their time hanging around in the gatehouse.

 

[sharps54]

If people aren’t interested in other games there isn’t much you can do to change their mind. If you Google Tabletop Roleplaying Game other games come right up. I do think one of the things that helped back in the day was that TSR published a variety of games with different systems so we were perhaps more conditioned to be open to other ideas. I don’t know if it is in WotC’s best interests to expand into other games and divide their customer base like Paizo has or say Cubicle 7 has with multiple versions of Doctor Who.

I think the other question is do we want to see even more games on the market further diluting the player pool or would the market be better off concentrating on the great games that are out there. This is where I’m at, I’d rather play the great games we have then keep buying all the new ones that are continually coming out.

Call of Cthulhu gets plenty of press, maybe some actual plays should start using Bureau 13 instead. Perhaps Critical Role should use Palladium Fantasy next season instead of D&D?

 

[Rogerdee]

Perhaps Critical Role should use Palladium Fantasy next season instead of D&D?

Maybe they might manage to fix it

 

[Degeneration roller]

I have actually seen a fair bit of interest in Call of Cthulhu and Cyberpunk Red, the OSR scene is also booming and there is quite a bit of people getting into it, yes most people stick with dnd (I think it also has to do with the price of the books, this is not a cheap hobby) but it's not like people aren't trying other things.

Also I'm pretty sure Critical Role had a CoC series at some point.

 

[TJS]

If people aren’t interested in other games there isn’t much you can do to change their mind. If you Google Tabletop Roleplaying Game other games come right up. I do think one of the things that helped back in the day was that TSR published a variety of games with different systems so we were perhaps more conditioned to be open to other ideas. I don’t know if it is in WotC’s best interests to expand into other games and divide their customer base like Paizo has or say Cubicle 7 has with multiple versions of Doctor Who.

I think the other question is do we want to see even more games on the market further diluting the player pool or would the market be better off concentrating on the great games that are out there. This is where I’m at, I’d rather play the great games we have then keep buying all the new ones that are continually coming out.

Call of Cthulhu gets plenty of press, maybe some actual plays should start using Bureau 13 instead. Perhaps Critical Role should use Palladium Fantasy next season instead of D&D?

I'd like to play the great games of the 2020s rather than the great games of the 80s. I've played the latter to death.

 

[Dyrnwyn]

If people aren’t interested in other games there isn’t much you can do to change their mind. If you Google Tabletop Roleplaying Game other games come right up. I do think one of the things that helped back in the day was that TSR published a variety of games with different systems so we were perhaps more conditioned to be open to other ideas.

I also wonder how much seeing other games next to D&D, whether it be in a store, a catalog, etc., influenced things too back in the day. On the one hand, it's much easier to learn about other games (and buy them) than it was back then, but at the same time, it's also easy to just stick to certain corners of the hobby where a person won't be exposed to as much.

 

[SavAce]

Not read the rest of the thread, but yes, 5e, is certainly a good vehicle for entry into playing RPG's due to its lighter ruleset than previous editions, and also that it allows GM fiat more so than other versions. Looking at you Pathfinder 1e, which had a rule for well everything. Plus all the different settings help, in that there are a wide array of different types of games, whether S&S, High Fantasy, and Science Fiction. And there are a ton more coming out - so it is all good.

On a slight tangent, and I know we love these here.

The think the only two issues I have are the classes, in that there do not need to be that many. And that spell slots hinder the actual feel of some genres of games especially when you want fantasy supers meaning you have to steer towards other 5e settings which do away with this, e.g. Aeltaltis which gives each level of magic-user so many points, as well as allowing players to caste above their level - albeit with penalty. Or other D20 products like M&M in which PP is not present. Personally I feel like a combination of say 5e, SotDL stats, and maybe classes, in that there are various tiers. That would be a vast improvement, and removing magic from all the classes. In that it only becomes available at certain tiers. That said if you remove Rage magic from a Barbarian, you essentially have a fighter that may be a beserker.

Overall I feel 5e is a vast improvement over the old, and we also have A5E currently, which is a bit crunchier than standard 5e for those that want more on that score. Plus the classes are more interesting, removing certain aspects present in 5e.

B/X D&D is like 64 pages of rules, I dunno if we can call the 1,000 pages plus of 5e "lighter than previous editions" in comparison, or more open to GM fiat.

 

[TristramEvans]

Maybe "lighter than previous WotC editions" - every TSR edition, even AD&D, I'd probably consider lighter and definitely more open to/encouraging of GM Fiat.

 

[Toadmaster]

This is where I’m at, I’d rather play the great games we have then keep buying all the new ones that are continually coming out.

Understand the sentiment, and I do gravitate to the same handful of older games, but there is some really great newer stuff out there. While it can be confusing, I just can't see the plethora of games available today as a bad thing.

 

[AsenRG]

I have actually seen a fair bit of interest in Call of Cthulhu and Cyberpunk Red, the OSR scene is also booming and there is quite a bit of people getting into it, yes most people stick with dnd (I think it also has to do with the price of the books, this is not a cheap hobby) but it's not like people aren't trying other things.

Well, depends on how long you use them. For the price of a couple new books, you could get possibly years of weekly entertainment. That actually compares favourably to going to the movies and buying overpriced popcorn...

Also I'm pretty sure Critical Role had a CoC series at some point.

Really? Got a link?

 

[AsenRG]

Understand the sentiment, and I do gravitate to the same handful of older games, but there is some really great newer stuff out there. While it can be confusing, I just can't see the plethora of games available today as a bad thing.

Neither can I. If anything, it's a good thing in my book.

 

[Bunch]

There are good tables in the 5e DMG to generate adventures and dungeons for new DMs.

Super late to the party and playing catch-up.

That's book 3 of the core. I mean if I'm new I probably hear "You have to have the Players Handbook!". It's true you do. If that doesn't do a good job of telling me how to run a game (and I've no experience with RPGs) I don't see how you get someone to drop down 2x more money to get the MM and DMG.

 

[Voros]

Super late to the party and playing catch-up.

That's book 3 of the core. I mean if I'm new I probably hear "You have to have the Players Handbook!". It's true you do. If that doesn't do a good job of telling me how to run a game (and I've no experience with RPGs) I don't see how you get someone to drop down 2x more money to get the MM and DMG.

That is inherent imo to the idea of 3 core books which goes back to 1e. It has always been a bad idea.

 

[David Johansen]

Maybe "lighter than previous WotC editions" - every TSR edition, even AD&D, I'd probably consider lighter and definitely more open to/encouraging of GM Fiat.

Yeah, 5e is a nasty, complex mess of racial abilities, class abilities, feats, skills, and spells. Significantly more complex than Rolemaster at its worst. Don't get me wrong, it's got a tight core that's clean and clear but then they just pile on the cruft until it's a nightmare.

 

[Voros]

Yeah, 5e is a nasty, complex mess of racial abilities, class abilities, feats, skills, and spells. Significantly more complex than Rolemaster at its worst. Don't get me wrong, it's got a tight core that's clean and clear but then they just pile on the cruft until it's a nightmare.

Right...

 

[Bunch]

That is inherent imo to the idea of 3 core books which goes back to 1e. It has always been a bad idea.

I don't think 1e did it as a design goal. They had a hot game on their hands and the order they released them in played into what worked at that moment. Monsters were a hit and something lightly covered in OD&D and Basic. PHB added more classes etc to the OD&D Basic world even if they didn't match in perfectly. DMG was the new system.

We do it now as a a legacy like it was the right thing from the beginning but it was always a hack in my opinion.

 

[David Johansen]

Yeah, I think the one book starter would be the way to go. A particularly fantastic boxed set with miniatures could just contain the book and the minis.

 

[TJS]

I think people expect a pretty big variety of monsters and magic items so you probably need a separate book for DMs.

You could include some of these things in a basic core rulebook - but people always complain that's not enough anyway.

There's no need for magic items and monsters to be in separate books though. Put them together in the same place.

 

[Simlasa]

It has always been a bad idea.

Why?
It's one of the D&Disms that never bothered me at all.

 

[TJS]

I also wonder how much seeing other games next to D&D, whether it be in a store, a catalog, etc., influenced things too back in the day. On the one hand, it's much easier to learn about other games (and buy them) than it was back then, but at the same time, it's also easy to just stick to certain corners of the hobby where a person won't be exposed to as much.

I think one of the issues with the hobby right now is that there aren't a lot of big recognisable alternatives to D&D with reasonably wide player bases.

I think that's why Call of Cthulhu seems to be doing so well in recent years. It's benefitted from a virtous cycle of player support and recognisability.

In the 90s there were White Wolf games, Legend of the Five Rings, Shadow Run, Cyberpunk, maybe 7th Sea. Reasonably big and present games with playerbases and, into the 000s, web presence. There's not really all that much now in that 2nd tier.

There's lots and lots of alternatives and good games but they tend to be much smaller, and while that's not an issue for established groups that are looking for new games to try together, it is an issue for players who want to find a group to play a particular game that may have caught their interest (especially if they specifically want to play rather than GM).

 

[Voros]

Why?
It's one of the D&Disms that never bothered me at all.

I prefer the core rules be one book.

Due to the way D&D has developed with extensive spells, magic items and monsters that may no longer be feasible.

 

[David Johansen]

The thing is that all those spells, magic items, and monsters aren't needed for a point of entry. After all, you want to sell more books later.

 

[raniE]

B/X D&D is like 64 pages of rules, I dunno if we can call the 1,000 pages plus of 5e "lighter than previous editions" in comparison, or more open to GM fiat.

That's just the B part, the X book is another 64, together they come out to 128 pages. The basic 5e rule books clocks in at 180 pages, that's very comparable. Compared to say AD&D 2e on the other hand, 5e is often lighter. For instance there are no rules for different damage types effectiveness against armor, travel speed is just affected by terrain being difficult or not rather than by many different types of terrain and weather, everything is handled by the same kind of roll rather than many different ones etc. Sometimes 5e is more complicated too, the classes are definitely one of those, with all 5e classes being a lot more complex than most AD&D classes. Of course compared to 3.x 5e is a lot simpler.

 

[DeadBob]

That's just the B part, the X book is another 64, together they come out to 128 pages. The basic 5e rule books clocks in at 180 pages, that's very comparable.

Err, I just grabbed the 5e PH and it clocks in around 300 pages alone.

What comparison is being made again?

 

[DeadBob]

The thing is that all those spells, magic items, and monsters aren't needed for a point of entry. After all, you want to sell more books later.

I don't even really disagree with this. I own several games (non-D&D) where I bought expansions later and really liked them.

Staying to a small tight core does allow for later sales and keeps the individual item prices down, making each one an easier to justify purchase.

 

[raniE]

Err, I just grabbed the 5e PH and it clocks in around 300 pages alone.

What comparison is being made again?

The comparison is to the basic rules. The 5e PHB is the equivalent of the AD&D PHB. The basic rules are the equivalent of B/X, and is a 180 page book covering characters, rules, magic, monsters, treasure and magic items and such. The 5e basic rules are found here, as a free pdf download, and are what's powering the starter sets.

 

[DeadBob]

The comparison is to the basic rules. The 5e PHB is the equivalent of the AD&D PHB. The basic rules are the equivalent of B/X, and is a 180 page book covering characters, rules, magic, monsters, treasure and magic items and such. The 5e basic rules are found here, as a free pdf download, and are what's powering the starter sets.

Gotcha. Okay, that seems a decent point of comparison then. Needless to say, I was initially very confused.