My final WotC purchase.

[Andrew J. Luther]

I couldn’t help the long post…

I haven’t bought anything D&D since, well, a few days before Christmas.

I mean, my son asked for a few books on DnDBeyond for Christmas, I wasn’t gonna say no.

Thinking back to 2014, I was completely uninterested in 5E. Literally nothing I heard about it sounded worth the investment in a new edition. I mean, all the buzz said they were going back and embracing the play style of older editions, and I had original AD&D and B/X right there.

I didn’t even look at it until late 2019 when one of my son’s friends got the starter kit for his birthday and asked me to teach them how to play. So I downloaded the basic rules and read them over and thought it was okay. Not amazing, but okay.

And then the pandemic happened. And my son asked me to run a weekly online 5E game for him and his friends so they could do that together.

So I bought the book bundle on DnDBeyond and started a campaign for them. And since the online tools worked rather well, I got a second online game going for my own friends who are scattered all over and can rarely gather all in one place.

My son’s game ran two years, and my “old man” game will hit four years in May.

But, having run a pretty old-school campaign in 5E (using the Majestic Wilderlands books that robertsconley remastered), I’m now hitting my D&D limit.

I’m going to wrap up this campaign in a few months and move over to a modern occult espionage game using Mythras, and it’s quite possible I may never return to a level-based game again.

And now that I know I’m moving on, there will be no more WotC purchases for me. And probably no more D&D-related purchases from anyone.

It’s weird to think I’ll probably never run another D&D campaign. It’s been more than four decades.

 

[Bunch]

My boys like 5e so I'll keep purchasing unless that changes. I think the only book I purchased this year was Planescape.

 

[Doctor Wombat]

I think my last purchase from WotC was in 2012. It's not some principled stand against the evil corporation, I'm just not very interested in anything they've produced.

If I were to introduce my nephew to D&D at some point, I think I'd use one of the OSR versions. If I wanted to run a D&D-like game for my current gaming group, I'd likely go with either Savage Worlds or Mythras Classic Fantasy.

I'd probably be willing to play any version of D&D, but there's very little chance that any of the other GMs in my group would want to run it.

 

[Kage2020]

I've played more D&D in the past two years than in the previous 30 and, yeah, it is what it is. I keep on reminding myself that RPGs are emergent and not necessarily dependent on the rules that are used to play them.

Still, it's also more gaming than I've done in a while so, six of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[Sharrow]

While I do understand the current anti-WotC/Hasbro sentiment, if one of my friends wants to run the new edition, I'll buy the Player's Handbook. Because I like having and reading the rulebook for games I play.

Personally I've never actually stopped liking D&D. I got burned out running 3e and wouldn't run that edition nor Pathfinder again. If I want to run a D&D like game, I would just use Savage Worlds. But playing is a different matter. Any edition except 3e/Pathfinder is fine with me for playing. Even 3e/Pathfinder could be fine, as long as I'm not expected to do that dreaded plan your character all the way to level 20 thing.

Funnily enough, despite that 'feature' of 3.x and PF1, I'll be playing in a D&D3.5 game in a bit, and I expect to enjoy it in a way I wouldn't enjoy D&D5. I know the pitfalls and so on of 3.5, but I'd have to read up on 5e, so the former is lower effort and as I've been there, broken the game, etc., already I'll have less temptation to do so this time round. I'll wait and see what the other players roll as characters, and take a class of similar rank that complements their choices, and enjoy the ride.

 

[Raleel]

I’m going to wrap up this campaign in a few months and move over to a modern occult espionage game using Mythras, and it’s quite possible I may never return to a level-based game again.

There are some bits about investigations and interrogations in Destined that might be useful for this, not to mention all the modern equipment and a slightly more streamlined system. I know some folks were working on spy stuff for Mythras, but I’m not sure where that is in the pipeline. I’ve not heard much on it in a while.

I don’t know how much I’ll buy. I’m just not interested in 5e. I’m far more excited for 13th age 2e. I’ve made my bitches known so I won’t reiterate. I’ve bought very little 5e. It largely fits in an uncanny valley between a uniform tactical game and an rpg and doesn’t really fit either particularly well to me. But who knows, they may come out with a supplement that is interesting to me.

 

[TristramEvans]

Uh, my final purchase from Hasbro was the D&D cartoon characters action figure line I think.

I mean, it might not be my final. Hasbro is in my, "don't go out of my way to support nor deny myself" tier of companies, after the OGL debacle. I think they resolved it enough to return to the just below the "meh" tier they'd existed in before that point. I wouldn't say I forgive Hasbro for OGLgate, but I consider that situation over and they capitulated fairly, if a bit weaselly. I have a permanently lower opinion of them as a company, but I am mostly not their target audience though. Don't like their aesthetic visions for D&D, and not a big toy collector. So I have no expectations for them to suddenly want to tap into my demographic.

Hell, even the cartoon character action figure line git a reputation for low quality quickly online and only lived long enough to complete the original main characters group, then got shunted to Super 7. And Super & are making awesome 7" ones with a bunch of alternate heads and hands and great sculpts, but, like, I'm just kinda OK. I was filling a wish from my childhood, and I did that, and that hole is filled. I don't need to pay $75 plus shipping to get all these characters again, even if a bunch of characters we never got are included (the first wave is Hank, Shiela, The Shadow Demons, and a Skeleton knight guy).

 

[Baulderstone]

I'm not completely boycotting Hasbro, but I will never buy another RPG product from them again. I'm fine with them continuing to make board games and toys, but I'd be happy if they decided RPGs weren't profitable and got out of the field entirely. While they backed off the OGL changes, nobody took personal accountability and nobody resigned. We just got their ridiculous non-apology about how they listened to the fans and "we all won". The people whose goal is to destroy vast swathes of the hobby are still there even if they were thwarted this time. Gaming is a hobby, and it is best supported by a cottage industry, not publicly-traded companies that you can't drink a beer with at a convention.

 

[Andrew J. Luther]

There are some bits about investigations and interrogations in Destined that might be useful for this, not to mention all the modern equipment and a slightly more streamlined system. I know some folks were working on spy stuff for Mythras, but I’m not sure where that is in the pipeline. I’ve not heard much on it in a while.

I actually pitched an espionage book to Loz a number of years ago that I wanted to publish under the gateway license, but he told me that they were already working on one. I had done some work on it already, but I set it aside because I figured I would buy their book anyway.

But I saw on the TDM forums that they were putting their espionage book on the back burner for a while to focus on other stuff.

Now I wish I had kept working on mine so I could release it under the ORC license.

But this next campaign of mine will use Mythras as the base with some elements from Delta Green and Night’s Black Agents woven in, so it wouldn’t be publishable anyway.

 

[AsenRG]

5e PH and SCAG were the last for me. I understand not buying anything WOTC. I'm thoroughly confused as to why anyone buys GW still.

Yeah, that's about how I feel as well.

Then again, my last purchase from WotC might have been CHAINMAIL, before the OGL debacle. So there's no "last hourrah" from me!

Piracy does nothing to them, ultimately.

Starve them. Don't talk about their stuff, don't play it, don't introduce it to people. Just treat them as if they don't exist.

They're dependent on The Algorithm these days, and The Algorithm rewards all engagement the same. Take all of it away from them.

...and that's what I'm trying to promote as well.

The library I run games at is asking me to run "DnD" as a second game and has even offered to purchase the books (to keep at the library of course), but I'm torn on having them do that. I'm inclined to recommend Worlds Without Number (which I'm WAY more likely to decide to run) but I get why they want "DnD" even though they have no idea that actually means. I also think they should hold off with a newish edition right around the corner.

Well, you should tell them that WWN is "D&D done right"...

As for Piracy, who said Piracy? I thought that was the Try Before You Buy Guy.

...of course it was, wasn't it?!?

Uh, my final purchase from Hasbro was the D&D cartoon characters action figure line I think.

I mean, it might not be my final. Hasbro is in my, "don't go out of my way to support nor deny myself" tier of companies, after the OGL debacle. I think they resolved it enough to return to the just below the "meh" tier they'd existed in before that point. I wouldn't say I forgive Hasbro for OGLgate, but I consider that situation over and they capitulated fairly, if a bit weaselly. I have a permanently lower opinion of them as a company, but I am mostly not their target audience though. Don't like their aesthetic visions for D&D, and not a big toy collector. So I have no expectations for them to suddenly want to tap into my demographic.

Hell, even the cartoon character action figure line git a reputation for low quality quickly online and only lived long enough to complete the original main characters group, then got shunted to Super 7. And Super & are making awesome 7" ones with a bunch of alternate heads and hands and great sculpts, but, like, I'm just kinda OK. I was filling a wish from my childhood, and I did that, and that hole is filled. I don't need to pay $75 plus shipping to get all these characters again, even if a bunch of characters we never got are included (the first wave is Hank, Shiela, The Shadow Demons, and a Skeleton knight guy).

You're in a much more forgiving mood than me, or Baulderstone and Ladybird for that matter.

As the former of those said, that non-apology followed by zero resignations isn't what I'm calling a "capitulation".
That said, amusingly, you are doing the same thing as me, basically, so the above is just hair-splitting, as befits our forum!

 

[MoonHunter]

several of you express a "dislike" of the D&D Brand no matter who owns it.

see, my hate for D&D runs honest. I have disliked it since it was TSR with it's high priced books and many books required to play. (There were rumors of distributors and shops not getting products (or products in a timely) if they carried other things.) Then the attitude of the company (and many players) of this being "The Only Game". Having always been an "other gamer", I have felt it. so I will collect them, but always after market.

 

[AsenRG]

several of you express a "dislike" of the D&D Brand no matter who owns it.

see, my hate for D&D runs honest. I have disliked it since it was TSR with it's high priced books and many books required to play. (There were rumors of distributors and shops not getting products (or products in a timely) if they carried other things.) Then the attitude of the company (and many players) of this being "The Only Game". Having always been an "other gamer", I have felt it. so I will collect them, but always after market.

Well, I started in 1999, and while that was AD&D2e, I switched to GURPS3/4e and Acsiom 16 after only a few sessions...

So it's only ever been WotC on my radar. I basically never knew anything about TSR while the company existed, so I never gave them a thought!

Basically, my point is that I can't express a dislike for the brand regardless of owner, because I've only ever been aware of one owner.

Edited to add: also, what I dislike isn't so much the brand as a) the mechanics and b) the position of practical-monopolist, which IMO shouldn't exist in a hobby like ours, and is a major detriment to it.

 

[Raleel]

I actually pitched an espionage book to Loz a number of years ago that I wanted to publish under the gateway license, but he told me that they were already working on one. I had done some work on it already, but I set it aside because I figured I would buy their book anyway.

But I saw on the TDM forums that they were putting their espionage book on the back burner for a while to focus on other stuff.

Now I wish I had kept working on mine so I could release it under the ORC license.

But this next campaign of mine will use Mythras as the base with some elements from Delta Green and Night’s Black Agents woven in, so it wouldn’t be publishable anyway.

Well, if there’s any of that you want to release, I’m sure others would like to see it, as well as myself.

 

[bleys21]

Like some others here, my kid is interested in gaming, and gaming to the younger generation means "D&D." Now, my son technically knows that's not true (he's seen the bookshelves in my office, natch lol) but all his friends, that's what they want to play. I convinced them to try Pirate Borg instead, but they're still pining for D&D. But I really don't like any of the newer versions (i.e. 3rd Edition forward) so if forced to do "D&D", I'm going to push them hard into DCC or Shadowdark, or maybe even Savage Worlds Fantasy....just anything not 5th Edition.

To stay mildly on target, I haven't purchased anything from them since the 5th Edition main books were released, and I haven't seen any reason to buy anything since.

 

[sharps54]

No son, you don't want to play baseball. Dad plays football so you have to as well.

 

[AsenRG]

No son, you don't want to play baseball. Dad plays football so you have to as well.

...if you want to play with Dad, or have him Refereeing a game for you, that is.

 

[bleys21]

No son, you don't want to play baseball. Dad plays football so you have to as well.

That's a fair analogy, and I'm certainly not stopping them from enjoying 5th edition if they want to. But if I run 5E, it certainly won't meet their expectations that they built up by watching games run on the internet, since I don't run (any) games that way.

So at this point, it's a fair question as to whether they want A) D&D style fantasy game, or B) Very specifically the 5E D&D ruleset. I'll figure it out, one way or another

 

[sharps54]

That's a fair analogy, and I'm certainly not stopping them from enjoying 5th edition if they want to. But if I run 5E, it certainly won't meet their expectations that they built up by watching games run on the internet, since I don't run (any) games that way.

So at this point, it's a fair question as to whether they want A) D&D style fantasy game, or B) Very specifically the 5E D&D ruleset. I'll figure it out, one way or another

That makes sense, I just know I made it a point to try what my son was interested in because I knew he was going to seek it out one way or another.

 

[Rogerdee]

Someone has already mentioned Everyday Heroes, which is pretty good.

My issue is that most of the rules are game mechanics, instead of having any narrative weight to them.

There is The Spy Game, which was pretty good.

And of course Ultramodern, which was I guess D20 Modern v2. There is Affinity (it was a KS), Neurospasta, Apex etc. Not bad, but it was okay.

I sent for The Book Of Many Things tonight. It is the last book with new character and monster info before D&D 2024 is released. Which pretty much ends my dealings with new WotC product. The last hurrah for me.

I saw a mate's pdf and I thought it was awful.

 

[TristramEvans]

You're in a much more forgiving mood than me, or Baulderstone and Ladybird for that matter.

As the former of those said, that non-apology followed by zero resignations isn't what I'm calling a "capitulation".
That said, amusingly, you are doing the same thing as me, basically, so the above is just hair-splitting, as befits our forum!

I wouldn't call it forgiveness as much as "already having low expectations". Hasbro/WoTC is not a company that I trust, they simply aren't an active concern to me. I didn't expect (or even want because I'd consider it meaningless) an honest apology from them to begin with. During OGLgate I was pretty actively up their ass online, pretty hardcore off of the Pub. But this was essentially me during that time:



And, like Andre Linoge there, I got what I wanted from them and I went away.

If I was at all interested in D&D I probably would have ceased it there as well, but since I wasn't, I didn't really have any connection to WoTC. The big effect it had on me as a customer is that I simply ignored the new D&D film. No way that I'd enjoy it with that bitter taste still in my mouth.

 

[Kage2020]

My issue is that most of the rules are game mechanics, instead of having any narrative weight to them.

I will say that when I skimmed them after buying the Humble Bumble, I did feel reminded of how GURPS 3e treated its licensed properties.

 

[sureshot]

I may buy some titles I am missing though probably not going to purchase DnD Beyond. All the new material leaves me cold.

If I want to run a more complex version of D&D I will use Pathfinder 1E. If I want to run an easier edition it will be 5E. I tried Pathfinder 2E and I found it more complex than 1E.

 

[BlindAudelay]

The 5e starter set was my last WotC purchase, I believe. Turned to the OSR after that...

 

[Brander]

No son, you don't want to play baseball. Dad plays football so you have to as well.

More like "I played hockey and baseball, your Mom played volleyball and was a cheerleader, if you want something else, we'll find you a mentor." I'm not planning on running DnD for my kids, because it would be obvious I didn't like it and there are people out there who do. When my daughter came to me and asked if I could run DnD for her I said "I'll be happy to run Savage Worlds for you, but we can probably find you a DnD game nearby" which she found before I did. She also organized our Savage Worlds game and I found out the library was happy to host it (and advertise it, but I'm full for now, though looking to add a second game (see below)).

That makes sense, I just know I made it a point to try what my son was interested in because I knew he was going to seek it out one way or another.

That's what relatives and friends are for. If my kids want to learn hockey or baseball, they can come to me. If they want to learn football (which I loathe) or the other football (which I never played), there are two uncles for football and two aunts for soccer, just for starters. And Mom would be happy to help her with volleyball.

I run Savage Worlds at the library even though half the players and essentially all the staff STILL call it DnD after multiple sessions. My daughter was able to find a 5E game run by another kid's mom and we live outside a town of just over 1000 people. I may run Worlds Without Number for the library if they want an advertised public game we can call "DnD Inspired" or something as an open game. I'd love to get that kids mom to run DnD at the library but she can only run once a month and while she occasionally uses the library, she's not interested in running a more open game. I may end up training one of the librarians in how to run RPGs, she can then do DnD. My wife doesn't run RPGs, but she might eventually be willing to start up a Battletech league or something.

 

[Billy Bones]

I may buy some titles I am missing though probably not going to purchase DnD Beyond. All the new material leaves me cold.

If I want to run a more complex version of D&D I will use Pathfinder 1E. If I want to run an easier edition it will be 5E. I tried Pathfinder 2E and I found it more complex than 1E.

I run PF2e games mostly on Foundry VTT and the automation and support is incredible to the point that even a doofus like me can run games. Highly recommended.

 

[Dr Jack]

I might buy the 6e books if it seems like they contain anything interesting, but I'm not playing any D&D at the moment and I'm not really expecting to start in the near future so I have no reason to buy anything otherwise. 5e is okay, certainly my preferred edition of D&D, but it's not a system I have any great fondness for. Like, playing 5e is better than not roleplaying, so I'll play or run if other people want but that's all.

 

[Rogerdee]

I will say that when I skimmed them after buying the Humble Bumble, I did feel reminded of how GURPS 3e treated its licensed properties.

I mean the Immortal rules basically say they are only using film lore, then refer to the Buzz which was explicitly a series term.

It would have been better having slightly different rules for both, and appendix for combining them - kind of like how Wold Newton tried with Highlander in its own canon.

My mate will likely let me read The Vault so I can compare and take in all the rules.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

I’m starting to get the feeling that D20 Modern 2nd edition isn’t coming out anytime soon.

Looks that way... But wouldn't it be glorious if they did just dump a pure d20 core book on the market in 2024. No sneak peeks, no previews, nothing. Just... Bang! D20 modern revised

 

[SJB]

There are some bits about investigations and interrogations in Destined that might be useful for this, not to mention all the modern equipment and a slightly more streamlined system. I know some folks were working on spy stuff for Mythras, but I’m not sure where that is in the pipeline. I’ve not heard much on it in a while.

I don’t know how much I’ll buy. I’m just not interested in 5e. I’m far more excited for 13th age 2e. I’ve made my bitches known so I won’t reiterate. I’ve bought very little 5e. It largely fits in an uncanny valley between a uniform tactical game and an rpg and doesn’t really fit either particularly well to me. But who knows, they may come out with a supplement that is interesting to me.

Did the Casting the Runes conversion from Gumshoe to Mythras fall off the Design Mechanism radar?

 

[Raleel]

Did the Casting the Runes conversion from Gumshoe to Mythras fall off the Design Mechanism radar?

I’ve not heard a peep about it.

 

[Zeroth_Law]

With the arrival of my copy of Worlds Without Number I am firmly in the "done with official D&D" camp. I have played 5e since early 2015, pretty much since launch. It was my first edition of the game, and it wasn't long before I realized that I had stepped my toes into the shallow tidal pools of a ginormous ocean. I didn't get to run my own fully fledged campaign until 2022, and if I wasn't burned out on 5e by then I definitely was after. Wotc just really doesn't care about making a quality product. They're too worried about profit and maintaining the "brand" to put any love into their game, which is sad. I actually kind of like 5e circa 2016-18. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes and Volo's Guide to Monsters are excellent expansions of the Monster Manual. I know it's a little bit of nostalgia talking, since it was the first adventure I ever ran, but I love Lost Mines of Phandelver. Learning DnD with 5e was kind of an uphill battle, but it was ultimately the thing that got me into RPGs and for that I am eternally grateful. I will always hold that little stapled adventure with the utmost reverence. Shame what's become of Wotc.

 

[Neon]

Thank God that closes out the 5e product line.... I can finally start buying 6e stuff now!

 

[StonesThree]

This thread has reminded me that I have some 5e books I should sell while they are still worth something.

Technically my last WOTC purchases were POD copies of Gamma World 4th Ed and Boot Hill. My last DnD purchase may have been the Players Guide to the Sword Coast back in the pre-covid days when I was giving the local 5e scene a try. Not really seen much else released by them to tempt me following that. Might get some paperback POD copies of the AD&D2e rulebooks at somepoint, but I don't really need them.

Does kinda feel that 5e is going out with a whimper. Surprised that haven't gone down the DC Comics route of having some massive campaign that breaks the Realms (again) making it ready for 6e.

 

[Dr Jack]

Does kinda feel that 5e is going out with a whimper. Surprised that haven't gone down the DC Comics route of having some massive campaign that breaks the Realms (again) making it ready for 6e.

They're still trying to pretend that 6e isn't different from 5e, so they can't give it a send-off.

 

[Triumvir]

This thread has reminded me that I have some 5e books I should sell while they are still worth something.

I can imagine a 5e nostalgia trade emerging in a few years and pushing values back up, especially once some people get sick of 6e.

By the way, I am sure 6e will be a roaring commercial success because I suspect WotC has built brand loyalty in the same inexplicable way GW has, but that's veering into another topic.

 

[Dr Jack]

By the way, I am sure 6e will be a roaring commercial success because I suspect WotC has built brand loyalty in the same inexplicable way GW has, but that's veering into another topic.

The majority of people who play RPGs today, play 5e, and to many of those people the experience of playing 5e and the experience of playing D&D are effectively synonymous. RPGs are great. It's not really surprising that the majority of 5e players have very positive views of the brand.

 

[Gabriel]

I think the last thing I purchased was the Spelljammer set. The last thing I received was the Dragonlance set.

I was unhappy with both. And I was dissatisfied enough to decide to swear off WotC products.

 

[Zeroth_Law]

The majority of people who play RPGs today, play 5e, and to many of those people the experience of playing 5e and the experience of playing D&D are effectively synonymous. RPGs are great. It's not really surprising that the majority of 5e players have very positive views of the brand.

I think there's an interesting psychological phenomenon going on here. 5e is often called "rules light" (which... let's not beat a dead horse here...) or "beginner friendly" (I actually kind of agree with this one) but the reality is three rulebooks (O.K., two and a half - the DMG is almost useless) is a lot to parse. There are a lot of weird interactions in 5e that make mastering it really quite an undertaking. How many spells can you cast on a turn? Can a paladin actually hear or smell alignment? Can a warlock with the Devil's Sight holding a torch see properly? The list goes on. So when people finally feel competent playing 5e, they have kind of convinced themselves that all RPGs must be as obtuse and weirdly written as this. Then there's the sunken cost fallacy -- the core rules for 5e are (at MSRP) $150 not counting tax. I know they said the idea was to go back to the roots of DnD but that didn't have to account for inflation! So you have this entire generation of gamers who have Stockholm Syndrome (Crawford Syndrome?) and it makes a little bit of sense why it's so hard to get over the hump and get them to play other games.

 

[Acmegamer]

I don't know, I feel that the core of DnD 5e is pretty simple and rules light. I kinda feel that folks expect to master things much too quickly with little to no effort these days.

Also, the price for the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and DMG, for the price are pretty reasonable, when taken into account inflation and the price of other hobby items. Heck for the matter the trio of books for the AD&D 1st edition when you take into account inflation add up to around the same cost as these three core DnD 5e books.

Edit: I mean, I'm kinda annoyed because I don't want to defend WotC or DnD since I'm over all not a big fan of either company or mechanics. But the facts are the facts.

 

[Baulderstone]

I don't know, I feel that the core of DnD 5e is pretty simple and rules light. I kinda feel that folks expect to master things much too quickly with little to no effort these days.

Also, the price for the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and DMG, for the price are pretty reasonable, when taken into account inflation and the price of other hobby items. Heck for the matter the trio of books for the AD&D 1st edition when you take into account inflation add up to around the same cost as these three core DnD 5e books.

I do have to add that AD&D 1E was way more expensive than most RPGs in the '80s. Especially when you also needed a Basic Set to have any hope of understanding it.