Mod+ Ai generated content in RPGs

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Voros said:
Rob, you are not a copyright lawyer, please stop playing one on the internet.

Actual experts in the field disagree across the spectrum on this. That's why it will have to be decided in the courts and despite what some claim politics and economic power will have an outsize influence on what is decided.

The confidence with which you are making pronouncements is completely misplaced.
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I didn't make this pronouncement the copyright office did by publicly rejecting several copyright applications for ai-generated art.

I am not dispensing legal advice; I am giving my opinion on what I think the appropriate course of action should be for certain legal issues.

But I had people come to me for advice. And I always tell them to talk to an attorney. But I also tell them to maximize your money when you do that do the following.

  • Figure out what it is exactly you want to do.
  • Read up on your rights and responsibilities before the meeting.
  • Listen to what the attorney had to say especially about risks.
  • Ask about your options and their levels of risk to you.
  • Keep in mind that your attorney's job is to look out for you, so in general, they advise the most conservative approach with the least amount of risk.
This is based on my experience with my attorney.

When it comes to open content, I refer them to the licensed text the work uses and tell them to talk to the author of the work if they can about their intentions and to ask questions. I get them all the time with Blackmarsh, and it generally ends up with a variant of "Yes, I really mean it and it OK to use it for your project. Just make sure you put in the credit that I asked for (if is using the CC-BY license). Or that you make your work open content (if using
the OGL version) and update your section 15 correctly. And if they don't like making their work open content, I remind to use the CC-BY license.

So, I don't play a copyright lawyer on the internet. But I do give people the benefit of what I experienced. But I do have strong opinions on how various legal issues ought to be decided and will write about it. And if that irritates you, then so be it.
 
Voros said:
Sorry, your comparison makes zero sense. This isn't an ethical complaint about using low-wage workers, this is about lying and pretending your tech can do something it can't actually do.
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You said if the tech relies on low labor (with no restrictions in your original comment) then it is a scam and not tech.

The AI requires a clean dataset to train against. That doesn't in any way take away from the technology. That dataset is done by low paid labour. It doesn't make the technology a scam.

Voros said:
The Amazon store was literally faked and false claims were made to the public and media. If you have to lie and fabricate, that doesn't suggest good things about your tech, to put it mildly. The case of Theranos comes to mind.
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This is a more valid complaint but is also the first time as far as I can tell it's been talked about in this thread so not at all related to anything we have been talking about.
 
The whole data scraping included taking the users of art sites by surprise with TOS changes to take their stuff, and only afterward "opt out" mechanisms where put in place. It was and still is completely dishonnest, and that how supposedly the tech makes "advances".

The initial thrust of artist support was also a manufactured manipulation. For non 3D visual arts about the only thing it does that"s worth something to an actual artist is generating the equivalent of ink blots (a RL technique), so when that was the tech artists where accepting. It turned out that was a mass bait and switch.

The "tech" of "AI images" is mostly fake and completely fraudulent. As it stands robertsconley robertsconley has shown chatGPT can be a moderately accurate index maker if you have messy folders that you have to check afterwards - a more fancy ctrl+f. That's the extent to which you can now use the actual tech (unless you're a scammer, then there's many applications). A far cry from the revolutionary tool it's purported to be.

No one else has chosen to propose an actual concrete example of integrating "AI" as part of actual problem solving within a creative workflow, because most of it is false. It's not good for texturing, or any of the claims about visual arts applications. The only ones I actually know of is the ink blot, and populating 3D environments with repeating assets (eg grass) - both which are already handled by existing tech. And spamming low quality illustrations. But within any medium (eg a digital painter wanting to improve their digital painting), it doesn't help unless you're unaware of the better tools and methodology - or you want quantity over quality.

And then there's all the unsubstantiated predictions these compagnies purport and fearmongering they do - such as baseless statements about "enhanced" creatives outperforming other techniques. When a compagny sells you not on what the product is now but hallucinating claims about future godlike capabilities and ultimatums that is also inherently fraudulent. ESp when combined with the deceit about current capabilities, baiting and switching, TOS abuse required to build it...

Now, I don't think phones required any of that to sell. Even comparing to photoshop is completely misguided as digital illustration has only gained traction among artists, not this weird bait and switch then losing it, precisely because it was always evident how it is still applying techniques and can help improve a workflow. Not that it's without issues, but there's no comparison.
 
Schrodingers AI: Shit, doesn't work, low quality, lacking originality and also replacing people's jobs. :shock:
 
Yes frauds destroy economies and bring nothing of value. That's not really quantum science :clown:
 
I'll just continue using ChatGPT for the things I've found it useful for.

What things? Some images I've used at game night. Helping me with some Javascript debugging. Bouncing some ideas back and forth with it while brainstorming. Using it for foreign language (Spanish) practice. I'm sure there are other ways I could play with it to do interesting things as well.

Call it a fraud, call it useless, call it whatever. I'll just keep using it and enjoying it for what it does. Its use to me is not contingent upon convincing others.
 
I'd like to reiterate that I am merely responding to extraordinary claims about professional efficiency and the creative process and saying they require extraordinary evidence, which is not there.

Many scams rely on having good rapport with low level users, which then will do PR for them. That's the reality behind the "hunbot" phenomena, where regular people will be made to defend unethical multi level marketting based on sunk cost falacy and user-product identification.

And like with any scam, end user/private use is not the concern. Some people got their money's worth from tupperwares, good for them. The goal of scam awareness is not to shame users but to shed critical light of unethical practices and fraudulence of compagnies. If you're informed that a compagny uses false advertisement and other unethical practices and still want to use their service and product that is your personal choice.
 
lategamer said:
This is kinda interesting because I'm currently reading Golgotha by Greg Saunders which is littered with AI art (from Midjourney).
Now I wouldn't be interested in this but surely this could mean anyone could copy out these art pieces and re-use them?
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yes, absolutely. assuming it hasn't been shopped like robertsconley robertsconley said. Or at least, shopped enough to be called transformative, which is a complete and total crap shoot and whoever tries to push it will end up taking the case to the supreme court.
 
Haven’t gone through the entire thread but there are issues with AI that make copyright and artwork way lower on the hierarchy of concerns IMO.

I say this as someone who works in IT. Right now it’s copilot not auto pilot.

Is Skynet becoming self aware tomorrow? Not likely but there are some very real concerns. I’ll simply leave it at that as it’s bit OT here but my two cents.
 
Willmark said:
Haven’t gone through the entire thread but there are issues with AI that make copyright and artwork way lower on the hierarchy of concerns IMO.

I say this as someone who works in IT. Right now it’s copilot not auto pilot.

Is Skynet becoming self aware tomorrow? Not likely but there are some very real concerns. I’ll simply leave it at that as it’s bit OT here but my two cents.
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Unless it's something to do with politics, (because of the no politics rule), I for one would like to hear about these concerns.
 
The Mad Hatter said:
Unless it's something to do with politics, (because of the no politics rule), I for one would like to here about these concerns.
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Not politics but more concerns with where it’s going but probably a different thread.
 
Willmark said:
Haven’t gone through the entire thread but there are issues with AI that make copyright and artwork way lower on the hierarchy of concerns IMO.

I say this as someone who works in IT. Right now it’s copilot not auto pilot.

Is Skynet becoming self aware tomorrow? Not likely but there are some very real concerns. I’ll simply leave it at that as it’s bit OT here but my two cents.
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lol, I have many concerns about the future of this tech, but "Skynet" aint one of them.

These programs are "AI" in the same way that X-Ray glasses ordered from the back of a twentieth century comicbook are really "X-Rays"
 
TristramEvans said:
lol, I have many concerns about the future of this tech, but "Skynet" aint one of them.

These programs are "AI" in the same way that X-Ray glasses ordered from the back of a twentieth century comicbook are really "X-Rays"
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With very similar ad copy as well, now that you mention it. Long on big claims.
 
Not exactly Skynet but Palantir technologies is advertising research in military "AI machine learning" applications, including target identification.



I still don't think actual AI like in sci-fi is possible (at least not in the near future), but ASFAIK machine learning has real applications for facial recognition and other surveillance technologies. Eg "teaching" what a human or face is to the computer via image generators & building databases of faces. Which you can also use for target identification. They are very insistant about human input being required to actually fire on target... But technologically that'd be really easy to automate too.

Wont further comment on that since anything else I'd like to say about it would be just opinions and speculations. But if you are worried about this sort of developpment it might be wise to keep an eye on it.
 
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Art's Puzzlebox said:
All that legal stuff aside, if you are OK with artists being replaced (because lets face it, you do want to use professional-grade art, but you just don't want to pay for it), here is a story from an anonymous source who had to work with prompters for their job at a large studio. Consider it a cautionary tale of what can happen when traditional artists with training & experience are replaced by prompters at a studio.

The quoted text below is taken from a facebook post.

////////////////////--->


"Posting this on behalf of a member who would like to remain anonymous:

I'm an art director and supervisor for a large studio. The studio heads had the bright idea before I started to hire prompters. Several bros were brought onto the film project. I absolutely hated myself for not quitting on the spot but stuck with it because it's mercenary out there. Have a family to feed etc. I decided to use this time wisely. Treat them as I would any artist I had hired. First round of pictures of a sweeping Ariel forest landscape comes through and it's not bad. They submit a ton of work and one or two of the 40 are ok. Nearly on brief. So first round feedback goes through and I tell them about the perspective mistakes, colour changes I want, layers that any matte painting would be split into.

Within a day I get 5 variants. Not changes to the ones I wanted but variations. Again. Benefit of the doubt I give them another round of feedback making it clear. Next day it's worse. I sit there and patiently paint over, even explaining the steps I would take as a painter. They don't do it, anomalies start appearing when I say I want to keep the exact image but with changes. They can't. They simply don't have the eye to see the basic mistakes so the AI starts to over compensate. We get people starting to appear in the images. These are obviously holiday snaps.

"Remove the people"

"What would you like them changed to?"

"…grass. I just don't want them there"

They can't do it. The one that can actually use photoshop hasn't developed the eye to see his mistakes, ends up getting angry at me for not understanding he can't make specific changes. The girl whose background was a little photography has given me 40 progressively worse images with wilder mistakes every time. This is 4 days into the project.

I'm both pissed about the waste, but elated seeing ai fall at the first hurdle. It's not even that the images are unusable, the people making them have no eye for what's wrong, no thicker skin for constructive criticism and feedback, no basic artistic training in perspective and functionality in what they're making.

Yes the hype is going to pump more money into this. They won't go anywhere for a while. But this has been such a glowing perfect moment of watching the fundamental part fail in the face of the most simple tasks. All were fired and the company no longer accepts Ai prompters as applicants. Your training as an artist will always be the most important part of this process and it is invaluable. I hope this post gives you a boost in a dark time."

For anyone who claims that being able to drop a few words into a plagiarism machine makes you an artist, read that. Then read it again. Having the skills to create art, change art, manipulate it to brief...understanding of color, perspective, etc...these are just some of the skills required to be an artist. If you don't have those skills, you're not an artist. It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect writ large."
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This is probably the best example of someone not understanding how AI image generators work that I have seen so far. And also a great example of "double speak", i.e. trashing the technology while at the same time fearing that it will take away their job.

Current AI generation of images is impressive but limited. It is impossible for it to understand and implement the very explicit directions that this person asked for like perspective changes. It is however a great tool for churning out concept art and illustrate different approaches, mood, color choices etc. These could then be refined by an actual artist. Great if you are a freelancer who wants to show their client quick options without a ton of effort.
 
Sometimes I need images for a personal project that is never going to be sold or published, like the campaign doc I'm currently putting together for an Acid Death Fantasy/ Ultraviolet Grasslands/ Shadowdark mashup. There's no chance I'm hiring an artist to illustrate that sort of thing. I'm either grabbing images off the net or producing them via AI.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Sometimes I need images for a personal project that is never going to be sold or published, like the campaign doc I'm currently putting together for an Acid Death Fantasy/ Ultraviolet Grasslands/ Shadowdark mashup. There's no chance I'm hiring an artist to illustrate that sort of thing. I'm either grabbing images off the net or producing them via AI.
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Economics is another important aspect. For many projects, especially in our hobby and doubly so for private use like gaming, it is not economically viable to hire artists. This technology allows these creators to produce products with illustrations that are good enough, thereby improving the overall product. In the last decades, we have seen many technological improvements that have allowed people to create things without heavy upfront investment, e.g. desktop publishing technology for magazines or books, smartphones and YouTube for self-made videos, software and hardware to create and publish electronic music, print-on-demand for books, boardgames, merchandise, you name it. This has led to a high increase in output (including an ocean of bad stuff) but also allowed independent small creators to produce amazing stuff.

On the other hand, if you are a large corporation like WotC, you might want to be sure of the copyright of the art that you include in your products and are in a position to afford it.
 
Art's Puzzlebox said:
Well that is all the time I have today, I will check in tomorrow folks.

In the meantime, this vid was entertaining, enjoy.

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Seeing this I fully support total robot supremacy, let the artswine starve so I can give every NPC a unique portrait in a consistent style.
 
Bunch said:
What are your prompts? I'm trying to do anthropomorphic scifi people for a Justifiers like campaign idea.
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I can't open my chat history until I get to work tomorrow, but as far as I remember the prompt was this: fantasy comic book, anime influenced, lizardman rogue wielding dagger, flowing robes, black background, pen and ink line drawing in the style of Frank Frazetta, ar 3:4 niji 6

I don't know exactly how much the Frazetta bit or the aspect ratio and niji style prompt at the end help. It was my first go so I'm still honing my prompts too. The other ones had hyenaman scavenger instead of lizard man and specifics about the big ass backpack. I tend to hit on prompt sets I like and then just play with content details.'

edit: high contrast may have been in there somewhere.
 
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