Exalted: Essence

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Universal Charms are up. Looking pretty good overall. Still not the full picture and there is some tidying up to do. But this is looking promising.
 
Skywalker said:
Agree it’s not rules lite. It distills what we had in the previous editions, rather than taking a new approach. Thats cool for me as I like the core of the ruleset for the most part.

It looks to be about as light as 1e was with a number of the things that added lots of complexity in play removed (flurries, initiative, and combos) and a couple of things added to fill gaps (social influence).

I am pretty happy with it overall. I could explain all the systems to my wife in under 5 minutes and she says she got it :grin:
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Sounds like a very sensible approach. I think when people say they want a more "rules light" version of a game like Shadowrun or Exalted, often what they really mean is "rules lighter" - they don't want to crank the dial all the way back to a very minimalist system, they want to have the same sort of feel but with some of the complexity filed off. (Indeed, neither system is really all that difficult in terms of the core mechanic; it's just the stuff that gets bolted onto it that starts to feel burdensome.)
Rich H said:
... Makes me wonder if it's a revised edition by the back door.
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OP seem to be insisting that it isn't intended as one, but...
Psychopomp said:
I wonder if OPP has done any brainstorming on what to do if Essence proves to be the more popular system by far.

I don't think that scenario is outside the realm of possibility.
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Yeah, whether not the intent at OP is for Exalted: Essence to replace Ex3 as the main rules of the game or not is to some extent irrelevant: if Exalted: Essence is embraced by a wide audience (especially if it can hook people who like Ex3 but kind of want something lighter from time to time, people who walked away from Exalted specifically because of the bloat, and people new to the game who found Ex3 too daunting but Exalted: Essence much more approachable), then it might become the de facto new edition, simply by virtue of the fact that more people end up playing it.

And if that happens, OP and White Wolf (who IIRC still own the rights) would be absolute swivel-eyed, money-spurning, business-wrecking goofballs to not factor that into the plans for the line going forwards. Plus there's this factor...

Skywalker said:
I am not suggesting that OP do anything TBH. If they continue as they have over the last 5 years, as they look like they are intending to do, good for them.

But that doesn't change the observation that OP will need to continue on this current course for another 15+ years at its current pace if it is to release all of the main Exalted books. I can't think of any RPG that has managed to sustain itself over that length of time, so that would be an impressive achievement.
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Yeah, by contrast 15 years is the entire lifespan of D&D 3.X and 4E and the start of the 5E era. Unless OP can hit on a way to seriously speed up the release schedule, Essence is going to look like a much more "complete" game than Ex3, which is only going to drive people to Essence. They might sort the pipeline out and start putting those Ex3 books out faster, though - but is this the sort of thing where to get "fast" you need to sacrifice "good" or "on-budget"?

The major wrinkle I can think of is whether any of the outstanding books for Ex3 are Kickstarter project commitments. If that's the case, OP are in an unhappy position because - especially since some of those projects ran under older versions of the Kickstarter terms of service which had less "out" clauses - admitting that a product might be cancelled could potentially put them on the hook for refunds and/or, if a disgruntled backer had deep pockets and was angry enough, some sort of breach of contract action.

On the other hand, handing people $X amount of DriveThruRPG credit on Onyx Path products is an easy way to pay off anyone who raises a stink.

On the third hand, if there's a hard core of disgruntled Ex3 fans who get super mad about a switch of emphasis to Essence, that might be a headache - you don't want that sort of edition warring stinking up a scene you want to attract new customers to.

So I don't think the decision at OP/WW's end will be quite as simple as "is Essence selling appreciably better/getting appreciably more actual play in the wild than Ex3?", there's reasons to keep the lights on for Ex3 for at least the medium term future. But there's got to be a tipping point somewhere, a point where if Essence ends up being sufficiently more successful than Ex3, it will become worth the pain to just pull the plug on Ex3 and reframe the line around Essence as the flagship. (Again, a 4E where something like Essence is provided by the core rules and a line of "Advanced Solars/Dragonblooded/etc." sourcebooks could be a way to go here.)
 
Warthur said:
(Again, a 4E where something like Essence is provided by the core rules and a line of "Advanced Solars/Dragonblooded/etc." sourcebooks could be a way to go here.)
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Though it isn't likely to happen and TBH Essence is really best of all worlds for me these days, I have been thinking about what an new edition of Exalted could have looked like for Exalted. I think consolidating the splats would be a way to go, though not as far as Essence, possibly along the following lines:

1. Solars, Dragonblooded, and Exigents - corebook with primary protagonists and their antagonists plus Blessed Isle and the Threshold
2. Lunars, Sidereals, and Getimian - Celestial Exalted plus Bordermarches and Yu Shan
3. Infernals, Abyssals, and Liminals - Corrupted Solar Exalted plus Underworld and Malfeas
4. Alchemicals and Fair Folk - "outside of Creation" weirdness and the Wyld
 
Warthur said:
OP seem to be insisting that it isn't intended as one, but...
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The IP owners wouldn’t go for that as an official line, but I can see a lot of fans already embracing it as such. Also, OPP doesn’t want an Exalted edition war on their hands, as WW-related edition wars start at nuclear armageddon and escalate from there. So officially it’s an alternative 3e, while in practice it’s whatever fans choose to see it as. There’s good reason to believe Essence will prove the more appealing version for the most people, and that’s probably part of the pitch that allowed them to make it in the first place.

Warthur said:
The major wrinkle I can think of is whether any of the outstanding books for Ex3 are Kickstarter project commitments. If that's the case, OP are in an unhappy position because - especially since some of those projects ran under older versions of the Kickstarter terms of service which had less "out" clauses - admitting that a product might be cancelled could potentially put them on the hook for refunds and/or, if a disgruntled backer had deep pockets and was angry enough, some sort of breach of contract action.
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OPP doesn’t commit to future books in Kickstarters. Just the main one and maybe an overflow companion book or two. And after the original Ex3 debacle they don’t crowdfund anything that doesn’t at least have a first draft already written.

The main thing driving the Exalted release schedule up to this point has been consumer expectations, with the other thing being developer interests. But it’s been a known problem for a while now that in every edition, one or two fan-favorite character types won’t be released until that edition is already on the way out. So yeah, the old practice of releasing one hardcover per exalt type every couple of years, with hundreds of unique charms in each, probably isn’t sustainable at the best of times.

I suspect Essence’s way of doing things will have to become the standard for the line in the long run, even allowing for the fact that the heavy-crunch mainstream of Ex3 has its dedicated fans, if only because the mechanics take for freaking ever to design, write, edit etc. Having a common pool of powers and a simple format for adapting them makes the whole endeavor a hell of a lot easier on everyone. If there’s an official Ex4 in the future, I expect it to look more like Essence in a number of respects.
 
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Roseblack said:
I suspect Essence’s way of doing things will have to become the standard for the line in the long run, even allowing for the fact that the heavy-crunch mainstream of Ex3 has its dedicated fans, if only because the mechanics take for freaking ever to design, write, edit etc. Having a common pool of powers and a simple format for adapting them makes the whole endeavor a hell of a lot easier on everyone. If there’s an official Ex4 in the future, I expect it to look more like Essence in a number of respects.
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So Ex4 would follow my recommendations for Ex3:tongue:?
Well, one can always hope:grin:!
 
Back in the day, the White Wolf release schedule managed to put out around two hardback fatsplats per year, so you could get 6 playable Exalts (including the corebook w/ Solars), the Fair Folk, and maybe a player's guide out in about 4 years. 3e has the logistical nightmare of struggling to get one hardback out per year (as we've gotten what, the core and two fatsplats out since 2016?) plus 10 playable Exalt types. I honestly don't think 3e is going to hold up under that kind of extended timeframe, especially with such a slipshod corebook.

I think Essence might become the default 3e, at least in practice if not in name, with the current corebook mainly in use by people who already feel an investment (or a sunk cost) with that version. Even setting the easier to use, better presented ruleset, I think such adoption could occur simply due to Essence presenting a more complete game as a starting point.
 
Psychopomp said:
I think Essence might become the default 3e, at least in practice if not in name, with the current corebook mainly in use by people who already feel an investment (or a sunk cost) with that version. Even setting the easier to use, better presented ruleset, I think such adoption could occur simply due to Essence presenting a more complete game as a starting point.
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That may be the key factor.

Imagine this: Essence has come out and it is broadly in lines with how it's currently expected to look, and no part of it is especially badly botched. Someone comes into an Exalted discussion and asks whether they should pick up Ex3 or Essence for their gaming group - none of whom is especially invested in any specific Exalted edition - to get started with.

Can you think up any really compelling argument for that group to choose Ex3 or Essence which you wouldn't be totally embarrassed to present? I just can't see myself encouraging people new to Exalted to opt for the more complicated, more difficult to navigate rulebook which only covers a fraction of the exalt types available in Essence right out of the gate.
 
The final manuscript preview dropped this morning, and the Antagonists and Charm creation/edition conversion Appendix sealed the deal for me. I've upped my pledge to a standard hardback + ST screen. This is an edition of Exalted that I can and will run, and may even enjoy more than 1e or 2e.
 
Warthur said:
Can you think up any really compelling argument for that group to choose Ex3 or Essence which you wouldn't be totally embarrassed to present? I just can't see myself encouraging people new to Exalted to opt for the more complicated, more difficult to navigate rulebook which only covers a fraction of the exalt types available in Essence right out of the gate.
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Maybe if they rebranded mainstream Ex3 as Exalted: Hardmode, it would appeal to a certain demographic who don’t want to be seen as filthy casuals. :devil:

But no, I wouldn’t recommend a new player pick it over Essence. Essence is already crunchy enough to appeal to most people, and while I acknowledge there will be people who prefer the main Ex3 rules, I can’t claim to understand that point of view from a first-hand perspective.
 
Psychopomp said:
The final manuscript preview dropped this morning, and the Antagonists and Charm creation/edition conversion Appendix sealed the deal for me. I've upped my pledge to a standard hardback + ST screen. This is an edition of Exalted that I can and will run, and may even enjoy more than 1e or 2e.
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The antagonist chapter is really good. I like how you can run NPCs without charms and just qualities, or add 1 or 2 charms where appropriate.
 
Skywalker said:
The antagonist chapter is really good. I like how you can run NPCs without charms and just qualities, or add 1 or 2 charms where appropriate.
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They've taken a hint from Feng Shui 2, then:grin:?
 
It actually reminds me more of Godbound with a splash of D&D5e but all RPG developments are related in some way.
 
As someone who never cared for 1E (Lunars sounded more fun) is there anything here for me? I'm not a huge fan of the game, though I did buy it. I've played a little 2E (a friend ran) but it felt pretty system-heavy for my tastes. Is this lighter than 2?
 
Silverlion said:
As someone who never cared for 1E (Lunars sounded more fun) is there anything here for me? I'm not a huge fan of the game, though I did buy it. I've played a little 2E (a friend ran) but it felt pretty system-heavy for my tastes. Is this lighter than 2?
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I'm getting the impression that it's just a bit lighter.
 
Silverlion said:
As someone who never cared for 1E (Lunars sounded more fun) is there anything here for me? I'm not a huge fan of the game, though I did buy it. I've played a little 2E (a friend ran) but it felt pretty system-heavy for my tastes. Is this lighter than 2?
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2 was a vicious bitch. This is a lot less painful.

The whole manuscript's up to look at. All you gotta do is back. You can always un-back if you don't like it.
 
Silverlion said:
As someone who never cared for 1E (Lunars sounded more fun) is there anything here for me? I'm not a huge fan of the game, though I did buy it. I've played a little 2E (a friend ran) but it felt pretty system-heavy for my tastes. Is this lighter than 2?
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This is definitely lighter than 2e, which was a nightmare of a system. Though system weight is somewhat subjective, based on what a person finds tedious, I’d say 2e > 3e > 1e > Essence, though you might also say Essence is like 1e with the crunch in the right places.
 
Skywalker said:
The antagonist chapter is really good. I like how you can run NPCs without charms and just qualities, or add 1 or 2 charms where appropriate.
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Which is pretty much how I ended up running 1e and 2e anyway. My players never knew how many baddies they triumphantly overcame were just a 14 dice pool with Excellencies and one or two thematic Charms.
 
Voros said:
I like that the art has moved away from the anime look. So less of this...

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And more this...

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I'd like to get a look at the new rules but not sure I want to back at even that low level yet.
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As always different strokes for different folks.

But I like both of those pictures. The art is one thing about Exalted that had little issue with except some of the insane (and frankly clumsy) censoring that came later (And seemed driven by some factors best not discussed on TRGpub), I like that its art had a variety of styles and flavor as imagined that the game had many sources and ways to play. I could see the art depicting more action oriented scenes, be more risque or even full 'adult' but that is just how I see the setting.
 
Silverlion said:
As someone who never cared for 1E (Lunars sounded more fun) is there anything here for me? I'm not a huge fan of the game, though I did buy it. I've played a little 2E (a friend ran) but it felt pretty system-heavy for my tastes. Is this lighter than 2?
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Much lighter than 2e. It’s similar in complexity to 1e (even with its 10 Exalted types) with some new mechanics to fill holes in the system (influence, extras and battle groups) and some of the more painful mechanics replaced with something simpler (initiative, combos, flurries, antagonists).
 
Ultimately I'm passing on Essence because it's still too crunchy for me, and certain aspects of the tone rub me the wrong way, but both of those are very de gustibus. Luckily there's a zillion light fantasy RPGs out there and the setting material in the main line is as strong as it's ever been, even if (or, more likely, because) it's coming out so slow.
 
Mostly that it leans towards a very straightforwardly heroic presentation, relative to how I like to see the game. But of course that’s always been an element, so I don’t want to present my own taste as a law of objective fact!
 
Matthias said:
Mostly that it leans towards a very straightforwardly heroic presentation, relative to how I like to see the game.
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I'll put on my Niggling Hat and ask... how do you mean that, 'straightforwardly heroic presentation'?
'Heroic' is one of those words that different folks give different meanings to... some just use it as shorthand for 'the good guys'... others for PCs with plot armor (what I'd call 'protagonists')... and I, in my own head, think of 'heroic' as people who will fight for their cause even when the odds are against them.
 
I'm going to knock your Niggling Hat off your head with my Demurement Cane and say "this is a subtle subjective thing such that you're better off reading the manuscript and trusting your own vibes rather than mine," but I think it's a bit of both good guysisness and plot armor? The Great Curse is totally voluntary and can be freely ignored, death can only happen by GM fiat, GMs are advised to avoid allowing PCs to fail in a way that makes characters look incompetent, and the splat descriptions seem to lean in a pretty good-guysy direction.

But again, someone else could read it and zoom in on other details. It's subjective! Don't parry my Demurement Cane!
 
Matthias said:
The Great Curse is totally voluntary and can be freely ignored, death can only happen by GM fiat, GMs are advised to avoid allowing PCs to fail in a way that makes characters look incompetent, and the splat descriptions seem to lean in a pretty good-guysy direction.
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OK, good enough explanationing... that approach sounds like not my cuppa joe... but I'm guessing it could be ignored/subverted/disobeyed?

I've never played Exalted but I've found myself repeatedly drawn to some of its elements (anime fantasy demigods)... similar to my attraction to Anima Beyond Fantasy... but the systems to both remain opaque to me, despite my curiosity.
 
Simlasa said:
OK, good enough explanationing... that approach sounds like not my cuppa joe... but I'm guessing it could be ignored/subverted/disobeyed?
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I read it more as permission to bring someone/the whole Circle to Incapacitated, then go, and "As you lie there, clutching your wounds and counting the circling birdies, you're vaguely aware of being jostled as you are relieved of your gear and dragged inside and down into the Satrap's dungeons," as opposed to, "Well, I guess you're all dead now?"

The advice not to let PCs fail in a way that makes the PCs look incompetent I haven't gotten to in my reading, but I've always run Exalted as a game where a failure on that Athletics check means you almost got to the top of the wall but slid back down the slick stone, as opposed to smacking off the wall and taking fall damage. Demigods should only pratfall when context and story make it the most interesting...and amusing.
 
Simlasa said:
OK, good enough explanationing... that approach sounds like not my cuppa joe... but I'm guessing it could be ignored/subverted/disobeyed?
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Totally.
Simlasa said:
I've never played Exalted but I've found myself repeatedly drawn to some of its elements (anime fantasy demigods)... similar to my attraction to Anima Beyond Fantasy... but the systems to both remain opaque to me, despite my curiosity.
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Essence has an involved combat minigame and nine billion exception-based powers, so it's too crunch for me, but it's definitely lighter than 3e, so I'd say you should at least take a look.
 
Matthias said:
The Great Curse is totally voluntary and can be freely ignored, death can only happen by GM fiat, GMs are advised to avoid allowing PCs to fail in a way that makes characters look incompetent, and the splat descriptions seem to lean in a pretty good-guysy direction.
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Pretty much how it’s always been, except that the Great Curse is a negotiation now instead of a thing people start ignoring altogether because it only pops up at the least appropriate times and in ways that don’t make contextual sense because you picked X at character creation. The splats have always seen themselves as the heroes of the story, with interesting questions arising from the tension between their different takes on heroism.

The rest seems mostly designed to remind people that players don’t buy into a game of shining demigods in order to experience a series of humiliating pratfalls and other indignities. Exalted is never really a gritty game for the PCs, and failure means they don’t get the outcome they want, not that they trip over themselves like chumps. It should be obvious, but experience tells me it isn’t, so it doesn’t hurt to spell it out.

There are no real good guys, though. The subtext is richer than the text in this case. For example, it’s telling that a “creature of darkness” is defined entirely by a list of beings your divine patron dislikes.
 
Skywalker said:
System and Storyteller chapters are up. Not many shockers in here, which is actually a good thing IMO. It seems very much a distilled version of the system that underlies Exalted in all its versions. The concept of Power and withering/decisive attacks are there from 3e as was signaled.

Social combat has been pared back but is still more involved than most RPG systems. Mass combat has bare bones system, but we may see more in the antagonists chapter.

The Storytelling chapter is a nice touched, and will no doubt be appreciated by newcomers.
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Where are these notes and art samples?
 
AsenRG said:
[Citation needed]
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The fact that A) It's about Demigods. B) It's inspiration is larger than life mythological and fantasy characters. C) The blurb was always about megalomania, when they talked about having 'Epic' motivations.
 
Chris Brady said:
The fact that A) It's about Demigods. B) It's inspiration is larger than life mythological and fantasy characters. C) The blurb was always about megalomania, when they talked about having 'Epic' motivations.
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Come on, man, get real:grin:!

Demigods and larger-than-life mythological characters (some of which are also demigods) are amongst the grittiest and darkest in all of mythology. Stories about megalomaniacs basically trump that, too...
All the versions of Exalted until this one have been recognizing that fact, too, and striving to implement it. Tragedy comes with the territory, here!

Basically, you don't even have narrative justification:shade:.
 
AsenRG said:
Come on, man, get real:grin:!

Demigods and larger-than-life mythological characters (some of which are also demigods) are amongst the grittiest and darkest in all of mythology. Stories about megalomaniacs basically trump that, too...
All the versions of Exalted until this one have been recognizing that fact, too, and striving to implement it. Tragedy comes with the territory, here!

Basically, you don't even have narrative justification:shade:.
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You keep usng that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
 
Chris Brady said:
You keep usng that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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You're going to tell me Herakles' history sounds non-gritty to you? The Illiad and Odyssey? Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?
You know what is the exactly the same in all of these? They were all brought down by their own shortcomings:devil:!
Yeah, sure, it's not gritty at all:thumbsup::shade:!
 
You’re using a very different definition of “gritty” than what people usually mean by it. Yes, these mythic stories are often tragic, but the fact remains that the protagonists don’t suffer the ordinary indignities and vulnerabilities of everyday humans. Their capabilities are on another level, and do are the obstacles they face.

Similarly, the Exalted don’t suffer from the effects of aging, normal disease, blood loss, or bad hair days. They have always been exempt from the gritty realities of mortal life.
 
Roseblack said:
You’re using a very different definition of “gritty” than what people usually mean by it. Yes, these mythic stories are often tragic, but the fact remains that the protagonists don’t suffer the ordinary indignities and vulnerabilities of everyday humans. Their capabilities are on another level, and do are the obstacles they face.

Similarly, the Exalted don’t suffer from the effects of aging, normal disease, blood loss, or bad hair days. They have always been exempt from the gritty realities of mortal life.
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So let me see...:shade:
Philoctetes didn't get a festering wound that smelled so badly he got stranded because of it.
Menelaus didn't get his wife stolen away because a goddess decided to give her to her favorite hero.
Ajax the Great didn't suffer a bout of madness which made him kill indiscriminately. This didn't make him forfeit his honour. He wasn't driven to suicide over it.
Patrocles didn't get killed like the inexperienced youth trying to get fame...which he was... by a much more experienced warrior.
Achilles didn't get his loot confiscated by a king. Neither was his friend killed in battle, causing him to make a choice that he knew would end in his death.
Odysseus didn't lose his ships and his friends due to the revengefulness of a capricious godling. He didn't encounter monsters that nearly killed him over that.
...yeah, we can have none of this:devil:!

Sure, the Exalted don't suffer the rules for bloodloss (though tell that to Philoctetes...:gunslinger:). But they do suffer many of the other dangers that await mortals...or they wouldn't even be relatable as protagonists.
Chris Brady said:
Tragic is not grit.
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But grit often leads to tragedy. And in those cases, it often does - see above:thumbsup:!
 
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