GaryCon XII cancelled :(

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Bunch said:
I'm going to assume that all the paid people (convention hall,etc) are equally aware that simply saying "FU not my problem" is perhaps legal but I'll advised if you want return business. I hope they are all working with Luke to come up with something to mitigate the situation. No one's going to be made whole I'm guessing.
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Unless I read the announcement wrong, the venue already let them cancel without paying.
 
Magister said:
I read the announcement as saying guest room reservations were cancelled; meeting rooms may be a different matter.
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ah, that may be it, but I'd be surprised if the venue did one and not the other
 
If the official position of GaryCon is no refunds because fuck you, you should’ve read the fine print, then I suppose that’s technically their legal right but in that case fuck them too.

If the position is that refunds can’t be given because the money has already been spent then I’d like to see more details about how it was spent and how much of it is refundable. If the Grand Geneva isn’t giving them a refund then the audience deserves to know that. If guests demanded up-front payment then we deserve to know that too.

The latest official post on the GaryCon Facebook group mentions a bunch of capital investments in computers, printers, iPads, scooters, and draperies. It seems weird that enough of those investments would have been made in a single year to eat up $200K in badge revenue, that even if it was that a significant portion of it couldn’t be returnable, and even if it’s not that all of it couldn’t be used next year to significantly reduce the costs of running that con (allowing at least a substantial discount to be offered for next year). They also mention costs of creating merch, which I’m not too sympathetic too since they’re still planning to sell that merch, and gift bags, which I’m completely unsympathetic to because everybody receiving one of those gift bags paid at least $100 beyond the base badge price, and I very strongly suspect the contents of those bags cost substantially less than $100 apiece (and if they don’t then what the fuck is GaryCon doing giving out gift bags at a loss?). They do also mention a couple items that look like legitimately sunk costs - printing event guides (estimated at $4-8K) and airline tickets for the con staff. It sucks for them that they’re out those costs, but I’ve also seen enough people say that they don’t want a refund that I suspect even if they did offer full refunds to everyone who wanted one they’d be able to make that up.

If they’re telling me they can’t offer a refund because all the money has already been spent then I feel I deserve to know how it was spent and what steps were taken to get refunds. If the answer is that they rolled over and a hotel is being made whole for a bunch of work it’s not doing and guests are being made whole for appearances they’re not making, and so forth, and because of that we all have to suck it up and be the only ones in the chain to suffer a loss then that’s a pretty shitty result, and makes me feel disrespected and taken for granted and makes sure I won’t repeat my error of being taken for a sucker.
 
Ideally, everyone involved should eat some of the cost since we’re in a Global Pandemic and a National State of Emergency, as well as a Wisconsin State of Emergency.

If the only people to eat the cost are the convention goers themselves with the Venue, Staff, and Con all staying in the black, that’s just shitty.

If they’re gonna leave people hanging, they should have the detailed numbers to claim why.
 
EmperorNorton said:
Why?

In all seriousness, almost every other cancelled event I've seen is getting refunds. It sucks. It really does suck for organizers. In fact, I sympathize with them (and think they need to actually sit down and explain exactly where the money went so people can understand that it doesn't exist).

But just pointing to a policy that says "no refunds" to explain why you aren't giving refunds when that policy is CLEARLY about the attendee backing out and not the event being cancelled is just not the way to go about it.

Or to me more exact: Why should the attendee just have to suck it up, but the convention shouldn't have to?
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The convention "sucked it up" when they had to cancel, whether the authorities compelled them to call it off, or whether they used their own best judgement in a matter of public safety. It's like if the venue burned down weeks before the convention, or if Al Qaeda blew up the town. Not only would there be no legal obligation for refunds, there'd be no moral obligation either. As for insurance, even if the convention had it, most policies specifically exclude acts or war, terrorism or other calamities.

Now, as a matter of customer satisfaction, the promoters might try to offer some sort of consolation prize, but personally I'd feel pretty goddamned ghoulish wrangling over a relatively small amount of money that might have been lost because of a deadly plague.
 
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Gronan of Simmerya said:
The part I keep wresting with is "What part of NO REFUNDS do people not understand?" If I buy a no refund airline ticket and the airport is snowed in, I eat the ticket.
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Uh. No. That's not how it works. Airlines are required by law to refund tickets for flights that are canceled, even for non-refundable tickets.

In point of fact, GaryCon is almost certainly violating Wisconsin law which requires tickets to canceled entertainment events to be refunded. It's probably why they're trying to claim that "Virtual Gary Con" is actually the same event and that anyone who can participate in Virtual Gary Con (which previously required no admission fee and is clearly not the event paid for) is actually paying for that now.

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Those who don't understand the first thing about contracts, the law, or contract law always seem to have the strongest opinions. Here's some actual relevant reading material under the circumstances, but as always you'll never have a definite answer until someone decides it's worth the time and money to file a lawsuit and it wends its way through the courts:
 
For reference, this is the post for Conpulsion (A localish con next month, formerly Scotland's biggest) which has been cancelled. Full refunds, ASAP.
 
Dumarest said:
Here's some actual relevant reading material under the circumstances
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Not really? That case doesn't involve ticket sales. Insofar as we define a deposit paid to rent an entire cruise ship to be a "ticket" (which we don't), the case further involves the "ticket" buyer cancelling the reservation; not the cruise ship owners cancelling the "event." That's literally the exact opposite of what's actually being discussed.
 
Ladybird said:
For reference, this is the post for Conpulsion (A localish con next month, formerly Scotland's biggest) which has been cancelled. Full refunds, ASAP.
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Student National Roleplaying Championships are still officially going ahead.

I suspect they'll only cancel if the university suggests it.

(Issue there is likely to be that the organisers are students and have no money and neither do most of the attendees!)
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
...but it says "no refunds"...

* cries * I thought words meant things...
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If we're to assume that the language of the tickets was legal, then I agree that there is no requirement to refund the purchasers. However, a lack of legal obligation doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do morally or smart from a PR point of view.

I'd say that if the money can't be refunded without going into the red, then Luke should say that and provide evidence. But if he's going to still make a profit on the convention, that would be pretty hard for people to stomach, legal or not. He should go out of his way to show that's not the case, assuming that he can.

Either way, it's just smart to offer some kind of future discount. The economy is going to be hurting after COVID-19 is contained, and people are going to think hard about where they spend their money for a while.
 
Honestly, I kinda gave up on Luke Gygax "doing the right thing" after the Mentzer debacle.

But I'm not going to pretend I would have attended Garycon anyways, so I'm not going to spare any faux outrage on this series of events. If he honestly doesn't have the money to refund, I think fans will accept that, and honestly I don't think they are even entitled to see his accounting documents. I don't think anyone believes this was a purposaeful scam, and these are customers, not investors.

But regardless of the blow to finances from his end, I do think the ethical course in this case would be to honour those tickets the next year, even if that means paying out of his pocket. I'm sure he could do fundraisers and the like in the meantime that con-goers would gladly support, and I'm sure there are probably even a large percentage of fans who would gladly pay again or pay to "upgrade their tickets"
 
Black Leaf said:
Student National Roleplaying Championships are still officially going ahead.

I suspect they'll only cancel if the university suggests it.

(Issue there is likely to be that the organisers are students and have no money and neither do most of the attendees!)
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For now, but the way things are going, I expect that to change by the end of the week. The university needs to protect it's staff and students.

It's a pity because I was REALLY looking forward to it this year. Some of my team have said we'll go anyway for a holiday, but it's not the same.
 
My university is transitioning to online classes only on Wednesday. Shit just got real.
 
TristramEvans said:
My university is transitioning to online classes only on Wednesday. Shit just got real.
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Welcome to the party?

It is interesting how much this feels like watching switches get flipped. Not saying you're one but so many see this as nothing right up until it's REAL.
 
Bunch said:
Welcome to the party?

It is interesting how much this feels like watching switches get flipped. Not saying you're one but so many see this as nothing right up until it's REAL.
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Oh, I still think the wrong people are making a big deal out of this in the wrong way. Honestly, I love going out now, because the stores and streets are dead. There was like 3 people besides me at the grocery store last night. I do think that the minute this became an issue, Canada should have cancelled all incoming flights from Asia (and possibly instituted a quarintine period for anyone entering the country) - but they still have not done that. Meanwhile the populace are treating it like it's the Black Plague. And I still have no idea why Toilet Paper is the thing everyone is after.
 
I think one thing to contrast is to see how other conventions, expos, events, etc., both large and small, are handling things. From what I've seen online with conventions and expos, they are either cancelled or postponed. In cases from around here (New England), things like concerts and conventions have been given a new date 3-6 months from now. I am a little surprised GaryCon doesn't have a contingency plan--they could have planed to reschedule it for the Fall, for instance. A lot of cons make sure a lot of the funds are in escrow, for instance, to prepare for this.

GaryCon is smaller than GenCon, but it is no longer a tiny con, either. This would have been its 12th year, and it keeps getting bigger. As such, they should be getting better with professionalism. And customer service is considered part of that. (It's not just this, the online registration system seems to always have problems every year and hasn't gotten better). This kind of thing doesn't send a really good message on how the financials of the con work.

Of course, this is an unusual situation, and we probably haven't seen any of this type of mass closings for a long time. I'm not unsympathetic to the situation.

Bunch said:
I have no idea how much insurance to cover something like this would be. The no refunds is to some extent an indication that insurance is likely limited or missing.
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Apparently, while there is insurance to cover such events, it's a fuzzy area when it comes to things like a pandemic. Usually, this insurance would clearly cover a natural disaster or something else, but telling people to stay home during a virus might not count as "force majure". This article from the Hollywood Report goes into the messy areas of that:

www.hollywoodreporter.com

The Big Reason Why Show Business Isn’t Prepared to Tackle a Coronavirus Pandemic

Far from a saving grace, the entertainment industry’s insurance situation may discourage big precautionary measures.
www.hollywoodreporter.com www.hollywoodreporter.com
 
Justin Alexander said:
Not really? That case doesn't involve ticket sales. Insofar as we define a deposit paid to rent an entire cruise ship to be a "ticket" (which we don't), the case further involves the "ticket" buyer cancelling the reservation; not the cruise ship owners cancelling the "event." That's literally the exact opposite of what's actually being discussed.
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Except in this case the event organizers didn't cancel the event. Circumstances out of their control forced them too. Wisconsin law does include the concept of force majeure. How it specifically is applied in this case you will have ask a Wisconsin lawyer.
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
Really, it doesn't matter. The web site has CLEARLY stated "no refunds" since last summer. If one doesn't like the provisions of the sale, one does not have to buy.
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That doesn't matter though, they have a right to their money back. And it's not just the convention, some of those people are coming from all over the country, and some might even be coming from outside the U.S. That costs more money than just the price of the admission. Hotels, housing, gas/rentals, not cheap.

This is effectively theft of their money. The good news is that no one will sue, because it's not worth it. So Garycon can do it again! And get away wit it. This is not endearing me to visit this place.
 
I don’t think it’s right to just attack Luke and and Garycon and call them thieves. The con would have happened if the Coronavirus did not exist. There was no nefarious plan to steal people’s hard-earned money here. This is an unprecedented event in our lifetime and even our governments have had to make decisions seemingly by the hour, sometimes contrary to what they previously said, and what they do affects actual people living or dying. This is a convention for roleplaying games that has been cancelled. Give Luke some time to get his shit together and see what happens. Maybe he hasn’t gotten proper legal counsel yet.
 
Chris Brady said:
That doesn't matter though, they have a right to their money back. And it's not just the convention, some of those people are coming from all over the country, and some might even be coming from outside the U.S. That costs more money than just the price of the admission. Hotels, housing, gas/rentals, not cheap.

This is effectively theft of their money. The good news is that no one will sue, because it's not worth it. So Garycon can do it again! And get away wit it. This is not endearing me to visit this place.
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Yeah, because cancelling because of a pandemic is so lame and arbitrary, and really is just like stealing your money.
 
I spend too much time herding lawyers during my day job to pretend at being one here. I'd like to think if I were doing an event like this that I would get an umbrella insurance policy which would help with the sunk costs (such that I could give at least partial refunds) and that a force majeure wouldn't invalidate that. However, I don't know if either of those things are true.

What I do know is that this is something of a marketing/PR mistake.
  • Luke is making a mistake in preemptively leveraging the no-refunds clause as his inoculum from critique, as having the legal right to do so (regardless of whether that is true) does not change that the future of Garycon's in the future is contingent on the goodwill of his customer base. Coming forward with a transparent 'here's our situation, here's why I can't refund much money' form of dialogue-initiation would produce much greater favorable attitude towards Luke/Garycon even if the same end result were to occur.
  • This thread made the mistake of attempting to initially frame, through force of will, the framing that the people who disagreed with the thread starter were the ones being irrational whiners. This too was a marketing mistake that could have been avoided.
In the end, I doubt highly that Luke is sitting on a huge amount of unspent cash that he could be handing right back to people but won't. I have no idea how good a businessperson he is, but even a bad one would recognize that as eating his seed corn. I hope as this develops he refines his message and engages in a forthright discussion and negotiation about what might possible for everyone involved.
 
Oh, and from an actual attorney:

"First, there is no “right to a refund” per Wisconsin’s Administrative Code as long as the “no refund” policy is clearly stated. It is and was clearly stated so that is as it is. "

Also, I love all the "I've never been within a thousand miles of the place but I'm sure not going now!" Good. The fucking con is too crowded anyway. Stay the fuck home.
 
Chris Brady said:
That doesn't matter though, they have a right to their money back. And it's not just the convention, some of those people are coming from all over the country, and some might even be coming from outside the U.S. That costs more money than just the price of the admission. Hotels, housing, gas/rentals, not cheap.

This is effectively theft of their money. The good news is that no one will sue, because it's not worth it. So Garycon can do it again! And get away wit it. This is not endearing me to visit this place.
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No that's not fair. Look this is not some shady shit being pulled. They shut it down to save lives during a global pandemic. They owe an explanation of why they can't and from what little I've read they've explained it but not in great detail.
I believe they are doing their best vs having seen this as an opportunity of some sort.
 
Chris Brady said:
and some might even be coming from outside the U.S.
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Most of whom were shut out the moment a travel ban by the US government was put into effect. The ban is in effect when the con was supposed to take place, so they wouldn't be able to attend regardless of whether or not it still took place. That must hurt even worse for them
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
Oh, and from an actual attorney:

"First, there is no “right to a refund” per Wisconsin’s Administrative Code as long as the “no refund” policy is clearly stated. It is and was clearly stated so that is as it is. "
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This reminds me of those C-list dvds where they have quotes on the back ("like a real move"! Honest!), but no attribution.

Here's a quote from an actual Judge: "You're Guilty!"

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Also, I love all the "I've never been within a thousand miles of the place but I'm sure not going now!" Good. The fucking con is too crowded anyway. Stay the fuck home.
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I don't think it's going to be very crowded this year.
 
CRKrueger said:
Even though I wasn’t going to go, I’m glad it’s cancelled. The old beards from the days of yore are 60+ at least. The virus breaks out there, we could lose a few of those who carry the living history of the hobby all at once.
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True. We must compile their 1st hand accounts while we have them to disambiguate what really happened then. :thumbsup:

:hehe: Which reminds me...:grin: Hey Gronan, how is that memoir book coming along? Do you think you have the time to write faster than George R.R. Martin lately?:clown: /runs off of Gronan's lawn:hurry:
 
Gronan of Simmerya said:
Oh, and from an actual attorney:

"First, there is no “right to a refund” per Wisconsin’s Administrative Code as long as the “no refund” policy is clearly stated. It is and was clearly stated so that is as it is. "

Also, I love all the "I've never been within a thousand miles of the place but I'm sure not going now!" Good. The fucking con is too crowded anyway. Stay the fuck home.
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They may well be legally in the clear. But there's a difference between legal and moral, and people don't usually respond to "sorry, no event and no refunds, it's all legal" with "oh well that's okay then, see you next year".
 
robertsconley said:
Except in this case the event organizers didn't cancel the event. Circumstances out of their control forced them too. Wisconsin law does include the concept of force majeure. How it specifically is applied in this case you will have ask a Wisconsin lawyer.
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Funny, I actually was thinking of "termination due to Force Majeure", but wasn't sure whether it applies to US law and how it interacts with state law in this case:smile:.

That said, they might want to try and handle that a bit better from the PR side. A detailed explanation why they couldn't offer refunds would help with at least some of these people. I don't know whether such was provided, since there was a-snowball's-chances-in-a-fiery-hell odds of me being able to attend, anyway.

And then there would be those that would never stop asking for the money they feel they're owed, because da feelingz outweigh law, evidently:wink:. So an effort/results estimate would have to be made as well, and some people's negative opinion should have to be accepted as the inevitable cost of actually taking the decision to save some people's lives.
Possibly that might include the lives of the complainers, for added irony:shade:!
 
Lots missing from this discussion! Here's the post from LG. Salient quotes:
Luke Gygax said:
  1. All attendees with a GCXII (2020) badge will receive a discount for GCXIII (2021) badges. We have to assess the financial impacts before we can tell you what the discount percentage will be for 2021. If you bought this year’s badge via a GM credit, we will roll over your badge credit for GCXIII.
  2. Gold, Platinum and Diamond badge holders will be guaranteed first access to their current badge level. For example, if you were a gold badge this year, you will get priority registration for next year’s gold badges. We have to figure out the best way to do this so bear with us.
  3. We will mail swag bags to Gold, Platinum, and Diamond level badge holders if we have an address. We are going to bring in a part of the GC Staff to work over the weekend of March 26-28 to pack and ship the items. We will use the most economical shipping to do so, so it may be some time before packages arrive. For this reason, we are asking all attendees to update their badge information on TTE to include their address. To do this, please log into TTE, click your name in the top right corner, scroll to click your badge for Gary Con, then click “Edit” and select “Yes” for sharing private information, then enter your address. If you have trouble with this, please fill out this form instead.
  4. We will reimburse those attendees who paid additional funds for events, such as for RPEX.
  5. We will get all GCXII swag up on the Bazaar by March 17th. We will have big discounts on Gary Con merchandise, so please make sure to go the website and shop at the Bazaar. It’s one of the ways to help us recover from the damage inflicted by the cancellation and you get cool swag.
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So everyone is getting out of joint because Gronan is representing this as "look at these morons who didn't read the fine print of their tickets...why don't they understand that they get nothing?" And everyone is assuming this means they got nothing. Well, that's not what's happening. Gygax is not an abject moron, fortunately.

In the comments below, there is exactly one person asking about refunds, and Luke replies very reasonably:
Melf! said:
There are no refunds for a badge after December 31st, 2019. The revenue was used to operate the company, pay for production of signs, printed material, licenses, services, Art, design, gift baskets, travel expenses and even hand sanitizer and cleaning supplies. These expenses are non-recoverable. We are providing virtual gaming options for all badge holders. You can participate by going to VTT.garycon.com. We are going to give a percentage discount for next year as stated, and we are also looking into the possibility of making an exception to policy for partial refunds for those who are unable to participate in virtual gaming. The coronavirus has impacted many businesses negatively. We are working to bring the best solutions possible for our attendees, vendors and sponsors while ensuring we can keep Gary Con going into the future.
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...and there are no follow-up complaints.

So I'm not sure what the issue even is. Maybe somewhere else people are losing their shit, or maybe Luke is just a bit stressed and mentioned somewhere that there are a couple of people who don't get it. But I'm not seeing any shitstorms at least on the official announcement, which is where you'd expect such things.

So where are these complainers, Gronan of Simmerya Gronan of Simmerya? If it's worth talking about, then you should post supporting materials so people know what you're talking about. And don't post it all like "See????" because you should have lead with that.
 
Edgewise said:
So I'm not sure what the issue even is. Maybe somewhere else people are losing their shit, or maybe Luke is just a bit stressed and mentioned somewhere that there are a couple of people who don't get it. But I'm not seeing any shitstorms at least on the official announcement, which is where you'd expect such things.

So where are these complainers, Gronan of Simmerya Gronan of Simmerya? If it's worth talking about, then you should post supporting materials so people know what you're talking about. And don't post it all like "See????" because you should have lead with that.
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To be fair--the biggest "issues" people have are not on a blog post, but a few folks on the forum and Facebook.

forums.garycon.com

Gary Con XII Cancelled

It’s with a heavy heart that I make this announcement. I know it will be critiqued by many but I can assure you it was done after much thought and...
forums.garycon.com forums.garycon.com

www.facebook.com

Gary Con | After much thought and consideration we have decided that is in the best interests of our at large to cancel Gary Con | Facebook

After much thought and consideration we have decided that is in the best interests of our at large to cancel Gary Con. I am saddened by this situation but I know that we will gather together next...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com

However, this gets into something I wanted to say in my last post, but didn't want to add it until now.

Luke has said very little about this, and has been respectful--I'm sure he's still figuring out what to do.

But what I don't like is all of these fans, including Gronan, injecting themselves and getting into arguments at the very few folks who have offered criticism to the way it's being handled. If you look at the Facebook post, the few people who have expressed disappointment at not getting refunds have (usually) been a lot more respectful and decent that the fans who are shouting them down or trying to give them a guilt complex. It's a bit of a cult-like mentality.

It's disturbing because people keep lecturing about the "letter of the contract", yet some of the same folks were pleading and hoping that the Grand Geneva lets GaryCon out of their contract. I see people actually started new threads to lecture the few folks who were critical of the situation to explain the law, etc. People are saying if you can't afford to lose the badge money, you must be poor--but they ignore the fact that GaryCon is an LLC--businesses have more option for capital and to operate at a loss. People here have made some good points about the refund situation.

I get it. It's a fun con. But people need to check themselves on this. GaryCon needs to be see as a business, not a religion. And I think when the fans go crazy shouting down dissenting opinions, they by proxy tarnish the convention itself.
 
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JRT said:
But what I don't like is all of these fans, including Gronan, injecting themselves and getting into arguments at the very few folks who have offered criticism to the way it's being handled.
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I'm going to take your word on the tenor of those threads and keep out of it. As if there's not enough terrible stuff going on that people have to manufacture third-hand strife to get outraged about.
 
AsenRG said:
Funny, I actually was thinking of "termination due to Force Majeure", but wasn't sure whether it applies to US law and how it interacts with state law in this case:smile:.
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I'm going to mostly throw this comment out here because I feel people are being generally misled in ways that might be harmful to them beyond the issue of Gary Con: IANAL, but everything I have ever done with contracts in the U.S. would indicate that in order to claim force majeure you need to have a contract with a force majeure clause in it.

Possibly Wisconsin is some sort of special snowflake where force majeure clauses aren't required, but I've seen no evidence to that effect.

No one should walk away from this thread thinking that they shouldn't include force majeure clauses in their contracts. It's one of the most common errors in business contracts and it can be absolutely ruinous. (If Luke Gygax hadn't included a force majeure clause in his contract with the venue for Gary Con, for example, he would have been completely at the venue's mercy.)
 
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