How badly has D&D been mismanaged?

[rumble]

So is John Travolta going to play The Beyonder?

Didn't he already do that in Battlefield: Earth?

 

[TristramEvans]

Didn't he already do that in Battlefield: Earth?

The Lady Gaga Biopic?

 

[lategamer]

That’s a loss no matter how fuzzy Hollywood gets with their math.

Box Office figures don’t count dvd and blue ray, streaming and online purchases, tie-in merch, video games and book adaptations.

The way movie financing works, even if people don’t go to the cinema, it’s barely a big loss. I mean, Disney and Apple are considered to be losing if they don’t make astronomical wins. Law of big numbers applies.

Same can be said of WoTC.

The guy who makes the food in the canteen of LateGaming is subsumed into the cost here but the equivalent at WotC is an additional cost. Same with the water coolers. WOTC has to make a lot of money just to keep the lights on.

(There’s a thread on TBP about how Disney should make a Duck Tales RPG. Apparently “leaving money on the table”. It was one of the Gregs (Costikyan I think) who said: wanna know how to make a million dollars in the RPG industry? Start with two.

I want a movie that takes place in a D&D style dungeon. 5 official Dungeons & Dragons films released in my lifetime so far, and NONE of them have done that. I don;t understand either, because seems like it'd be cheap as hell to make.

You would think that would be obvious. I mean, the “dungeon” parts of Raiders of the Lost Ark are pretty gripping. And again showing people how to play. They could do the whole movie straight fantasy - dungeon, dragon, orcs, … and then in the post credits scene show the gaming group wrapping up, chatting, finishing up snacks.

 

[Sable Wyvern]

This thread has convinced me that, probably, the only real mistake that has been made is assuming that there is more money to be made (and then flailing about futilely, trying to work out how to gather it all up).

 

[lategamer]

This thread has convinced me that, probably, the only real mistake that has been made is assuming that there is more money to be made (and then flailing about futilely, trying to work out how to gather it all up).

That there's more money to be made is assumed (and correct).

But the better assumption is that if it was not mismanaged, the product would be better (subjective I know). We only have some measures for that (purchases is one, number of online games is another, percentage of people who identify as a nerd)

I'm with TristramEvans - give us a Dungeons and Dragons movie that has Dungeons in it for once.

 

[Chris Brady]

Oh I’m well aware of that, but that somehow is being left out of the conversation.

Add to this a studio does not get 100% of the cut at the box office, the theater gets a chunk.

Point being Disney took a massive bath in 2023.

The rule of thumb is that a movie NOW needs to make 3x the LISTED budget (Remember, they don't couint Marketing, any reshoots, which all movies seem to need of late and other extra fees) in GROSS income to be considered profitable.

2.5x is considered the Break Even point.

Net income is what we'd need to see how much they actually make, but they never report that.

 

[Chris Brady]

Box Office figures don’t count dvd and blue ray, streaming and online purchases, tie-in merch, video games and book adaptations.

Those are not considered in the income, as they're AFTER the screenings. And if the movie doesn't do well in theatres, the odds of it getting additional merch lessens or stretches out the period of time that they get a release on physical media.

 

[lategamer]

Those are not considered in the income, as they're AFTER the screenings. And if the movie doesn't do well in theatres, the odds of it getting additional merch lessens or stretches out the period of time that they get a release on physical media.

Yeah, I don't care that much but when we start moving in additional costs, we might as well move in additional revenues. The Mouse doesn't lose out.

In some cases we get merch before the screening. But hey, I'm done talking about MCU specifically. It was an example of a well run franchise and an example of how individuals may fatigued with franchises or don't watch the movies but the mob is plainly not.

 

[Chris Brady]

Yeah, I don't care that much but when we start moving in additional costs, we might as well move in additional revenues. The Mouse doesn't lose out.

In some cases we get merch before the screening. But hey, I'm done talking about MCU specifically. It was an example of a well run franchise and an example of how individuals may fatigued with franchises or don't watch the movies but the mob is plainly not.

Actually, the Maus Haus has. They're stock is not doing so hot as of yesterday's investment call. Not to mention that GOTG3, that everyone praises, apparently DIDN'T MAKE MONEY! There's some incredible amount of mismanagement.

I think they could give Hasbro lessons on how bad it could get.

 

[lategamer]

Actually, the Maus Haus has. They're stock is not doing so hot as of yesterday's investment call.

I really don’t want to get into this but suffice to say that they made 30 billion in profit last year, 29 billion the year before, 28 billion the year before that.

Stock prices are nothing to do with reality. My guess is that the profit isn’t growing big enough to satisfy transient stock buyers.

Not to mention that GOTG3, that everyone praises, apparently DIDN'T MAKE MONEY! There's some incredible amount of mismanagement.

GoTG3 was the only profitable Disney movie of 2023 based on the 2.5 multiplier that Hollywood applies on the budget. It made 35% above the line.

(These multipliers are some creative accounting )

I think they could give Hasbro lessons on how bad it could get.

 

[Sable Wyvern]

That there's more money to be made is assumed (and correct).

But the better assumption is that if it was not mismanaged, the product would be better (subjective I know). We only have some measures for that (purchases is one, number of online games is another, percentage of people who identify as a nerd)

I'm with TristramEvans - give us a Dungeons and Dragons movie that has Dungeons in it for once.

The whole point of my post is that I think it's wrong to assume there is any significant amount of additional money to be made. You can claim that this is wrong, and there is more money out there, but I find the people in this thread who have suggested otherwise have much more compelling arguments than you stating it to be otherwise.

It is absolutely subjective. And kind of pointless, as far as I'm concerned. The quality of D&D as a game is of little to no consequence to me, but that it's good enough to dominate the market is clear.

I would love well-done dungeoneering movie that embraces OSR aesthetics but, if it happens, it won't be associated with the D&D brand.

 

[lategamer]

I would love well-done dungeoneering movie that embraces OSR aesthetics

2,000,000%

but, if it happens, it won't be associated with the D&D brand.

And that's the tragedy.

Rather than "Honor Among Thieves" we should have got Keep on the Borderlands.

 

[sharps54]

2,000,000%



And that's the tragedy.

Rather than "Honor Among Thieves" we should have got Keep on the Borderlands.

But is that what the public wants? Gamers are a small part of the audience, they want to bring in the Marvel audience not just D&D players and Keep narrows it down to older D&D players. Would a D&D ‘Descent’ style horror movie do well? Actually if they could keep the budget down it could but they would have to keep the budget tiny so they could have room for profit

 

[lategamer]

But is that what the public wants? Gamers are a small part of the audience, they want to bring in the Marvel audience not just D&D players and Keep narrows it down to older D&D players.

People don’t know what they want and it’s a fatal mistake to ask them.

Honor Among Thieves doesn’t bring in the marvel audience. I don’t quite know what you’re objecting to.

If we had got KotB, at least people could have googled it. It would have drawn people to the game resources.

Would a D&D ‘Descent’ style horror movie do well?

I wouldn’t go horror at the start.
That doesn’t mean there couldn’t be Tomb of Horrors later.

Actually if they could keep the budget down it could but they would have to keep the budget tiny so they could have room for profit

Dungeons are cheap in terms of locations.

 

[carpocratian]

The whole point of my post is that I think it's wrong to assume there is any significant amount of additional money to be made.

I agree with this. I think they could have made SOME extra money, in a variety of ways, had they been smarter about everything, but not to the degree that Hasbro envisions.

"Dungeons and Dragons" as an overall IP has name recognition, but that alone isn't enough to make it a good target for mass expansion into media of all sorts. Even popular videogames that have built-in characters and stories have had really mixed results when it comes to expanding into other media, particularly if the target audience isn't children.

 

[lategamer]

I agree with this. I think they could have made SOME extra money, in a variety of ways, had they been smarter about everything, but not to the degree that Hasbro envisions.

The OP wasn’t just about squeezing pennies. It’s about delivering products that don’t make sense. They invested 150M in that movie that didn’t do anything. 5e was already selling well (hard to measure if it was selling close to potential as there’s no baseline)

"Dungeons and Dragons" as an overall IP has name recognition, but that alone isn't enough to make it a good target for mass expansion into media of all sorts.

Based on?
It wasn’t done? That’s mismanagement. They’ve had 50 years and just got comfortable in the niche as the biggest fish in this tiny pond.

Some folk mentioned how MTG is better ROI. Well, spin it out. But realising an asset does take effort and its their corporate duty to the owners.

Even popular videogames that have built-in characters and stories have had really mixed results when it comes to expanding into other media, particularly if the target audience isn't children.

The point of a media enterprise is to create stories and characters. They bungled it in D&D: HAT

And it taught nothing about the game. It used the brand but, IMO, they were ashamed of the origin.

 

[AsenRG]

But is that what the public wants? Gamers are a small part of the audience, they want to bring in the Marvel audience not just D&D players and Keep narrows it down to older D&D players.

I keep seeing this line of thinking, and I keep thinking it's fishy. Not you, S sharps54 specifically, but I think you've bought into a line that's simply wrong.
What's about the Keep of the Borderlands keeps non-gamers from liking it, in your opinion? I haven't ran KotB, sure, but I do know how to write movie scenarios! (As I've said before, usually in narrative threads, I treat writing as a separate hobby from RPGs).

So I just googled KotB's plot in order not to go from hearsay.
According to Wikipedia it has the keep which serves as a base, Caves of Chaos which house multiple species of vicious humanoids, monsters, and plot twists - which I'm omitting, but they're totally sufficient for a movie...

...so no, by all means, a Keep of the Borderlands is quite sufficient for a D&D movie that would appeal to non-gamers as well. It just wouldn't necessarily attract them.
That's the job of the monsters, and the hermit.

And hey, if WotC wants to talk about it, I can provide a scenario for a small fee!

 

[sharps54]

I could be totally off base, perhaps they should dive into it and. It try to make something without the idea of appealing to the general audience. Thats what we got with The Northman, mind you it was a box office disappointment from what I remember. Also Dredd which also failed to break even at the box office.

I still think if they make an ‘authentic’ D&D movie, whatever that means, they are best served with a fairly low budget so there is room for it to make money and if it does well a lot of money. The only way these things get financed is if they make money.

 

[lategamer]

Also Dredd which also failed to break even at the box office.

Which was brilliant but maybe under the shadow of the Stallone movie?

I still think if they make an ‘authentic’ D&D movie, whatever that means, they are best served with a fairly low budget so there is room for it to make money and if it does well a lot of money.

Absolutely. The opener is an entrance to the dungeon. We spend a little time getting to know the PCs. They fight their way through, we see more personality. They find the Big Bad and end them. Camera backs off and transposes the victory view into the map on the tabletop. We see the players wrapping up.

Enclosed sets are cheaper. Stick to humanoid (masked) monsters.

The only way these things get financed is if they make money.

If remotely interested, look at the amount of money the European MEDIA fund pumped into the Human Centipede movies.

 

[AsenRG]

If remotely interested, look at the amount of money the European MEDIA fund pumped into the Human Centipede movies.

I've sometimes been wondering whether we two could make an RPG-inspired movie together...

 

[lategamer]

I've sometimes been wondering whether we two could make an RPG-inspired movie together...

Write a movie, pitch a movie, get a movie made, laugh all the way to dying penniless in the gutter.

Aye, ok. Add that to the PubCollab

 

[AsenRG]

Write a movie, pitch a movie, get a movie made, laugh all the way to dying penniless in the gutter.

Yeah, I'd admit that that is part of the things that worry me!

 

[Willmark]

The rule of thumb is that a movie NOW needs to make 3x the LISTED budget (Remember, they don't couint Marketing, any reshoots, which all movies seem to need of late and other extra fees) in GROSS income to be considered profitable.

2.5x is considered the Break Even point.

Net income is what we'd need to see how much they actually make, but they never report that.

Point being several hard facts the Mouse can’t ignore:

1. Their budgets are massively bloated.

2. Movies are underperforming relative to the peak of Marvel. Despite the claims in this thread phase 4 & 5 have underperformed relative to previous.

3. The SW fan base has been fractured since the release of TLJ. No matter which side anyone comes down on, there is no stuffing that genie back in the bottle.

Related outside of maybe Andor? The TV stuff has been bad.

Marvel TV stuff? Yeah….

4. Disney has been antagonizing the fans and blaming them for their failures. No Disney, that’s 100% your fault. You work for the customers money, not the other way around.

ETA: as I recall the last time a Marvel movie crossed 1 billion was 2019. Point being that billion dollar movies was a possibility previously. Now? It’s telling nothing has crossed recently.

More to the point? Anyone pointing out how profitable the MCU is? Yes it was. Now? No where near what it was.

 

[sharps54]

Deadpool and Wolverine will break a billion or I’ll eat my hat. That said I do believe it’s inevitable success has nothing to do with Disney and will not be proof of them turning things around.

 

[Willmark]

Deadpool and Wolverine will break a billion or I’ll eat my hat. That said I do believe it’s inevitable success has nothing to do with Disney and will not be proof of them turning things around.

I’m in complete agreement. It should be a monster hit.

One can write the online reviews now about how “Disney is back!” Or is that their bot farms pumping up the Acolyte?

 

[sharps54]

Disney and their fans will definitely claim the win but I expect a drop off when Thubderbolts and Captain America hit the theaters. Which is a shame, I like Mackie and would like to see him get a fair chance in the role.

 

[xanther]

Internet rumor, and I’m willing to admit to being wrong. However the end result - that the company that produced BG3 to great acclaim and success will not be producing any further D&D-branded games - is still true, regardless of which side made the decision.

I'm convinced that wearing a suit and tie leads to stupid business decisions...I think it must be the tie cuts off oxygen to the brain

Could be a lot of "valid" reasons for this though; successful but not enough to recoup costs or make enough profit, maybe any license increased, the game makers go too big a cut, etc., etc. Basically greed kills deals

 

[xanther]

I thought that was The Expanse

True that.

 

[T. Foster]

At some point a decade or so ago I outlined the plot of a D&D movie that I think could’ve been pretty good. It was formulaic “save the cat” stuff but that’s true to both what Hollywood wants and what most D&D games are like, so excusable in this context.

Similar to the first Mission:Impossible movie or Death Proof it starts out introducing a group of archetypal D&D pro adventurers who’ve found a treasure map or other macguffin-clue leading them into the dungeons of Undermountain for big loot. We see them gather their gear (weapons, torches, rope, spikes, etc) and go to the Yawning Portal and descend into the dungeon. We follow them through a couple rooms and hallways as they scare off some bugs or rats or whatever and find a secret door that takes them down a stairway deep into the dungeon to some creepy evil shrine where they trigger some trap and get TPK’d.

Roll opening credits and then introduce the real cast who are young and inexperienced and have more traditional motivations - they need treasure to save their family farm, looking for lost sibling, etc. They fumble their way around the city and meet NPCs and learn exposition and eventually make their way to the Yawning Portal and into the dungeon and back to the same room where the last group died, but through luck they manage to survive and retrieve the treasure but in doing so they come to the attention of the Big Bad Guys and they have to flee the city and there’s a big multi-location chase and they meet Elminster in Shadowdale who gives them the exposition they need to complete the quest before the bad guy army descends on the place and burns his house and kills him (seemingly) and the party barely escapes into the forest and they end up in the ruins of Myth Drannor and there’s a big finale with a happy ending and setup for sequel and then mid-credits we cut to the actors sitting around a table with dice snd minis and a sweet Dwarven Forge type setup of the scene of the final battle and they’re all high-fiving and celebrating their victory, except the guy who died, who’s player is grumpily rolling the dice to generate a new character. And the DM (played by the actor who played tye main villain) is like “same time next week, guys?”

Coming up with that (the original version went into a bit more detail on acts 2 & 3) took me like half an hour tops. It wouldn’t have required any more budget (probably less) then the movie they actually made and would’ve been more iconically D&Dish.

 

[xanther]

Evidence if the MCU franchise is that it's made a bundle and will continue to. Recent falls, like The Marvels, were more likely due to lack of promotion (from the writers/actors industrial action) ...

I'd say this on The Marvels, I saw next to zero pre-release marketing on this versus compared to all the other Phase 5 movies which couldn't avoid. Not alone in this. Didn't even know The Marvels was out until heard how it disappointed at the box office. Would have seen it, and certainly watched it as soon as on-demand and know that is the same for others.

 

[Voros]

Point being several hard facts the Mouse can’t ignore:

1. Their budgets are massively bloated.

2. Movies are underperforming relative to the peak of Marvel. Despite the claims in this thread phase 4 & 5 have underperformed relative to previous.

3. The SW fan base has been fractured since the release of TLJ. No matter which side anyone comes down on, there is no stuffing that genie back in the bottle.

Related outside of maybe Andor? The TV stuff has been bad.

Marvel TV stuff? Yeah….

4. Disney has been antagonizing the fans and claiming them for their failures. No Disney, that’s 100% your fault. You work for the customers money, not the other way around.

ETA: as I recall the last time a Marvel movie crossed 1 billion was 2019. Point being that billion dollar movies was a possibility previously. Now? It’s telling nothing has crossed recently.

More to the point? Anyone pointing out how profitable the MCU is? Yes it was. Now? No where near what it was.

On TV, Bad Batch was excellent.

I think the fandom continues to overestimate their influence at the box office. Of course that's a narrative that plays to their sense of importance so they desperately cling to it as an explanation for everything. Some of the films they hate do well and they rationalize the numbers away as this thread clearly demonstrates, a film they like underperforms and they studiously ignore it, a film they dislike underperforms and they bray that it was because the film didn't cater to them.

These recent films have underperformed for a whole host of reasons, a small but vocal part of the 'fanbase' online complaining about things that the average moviegoer cares nothing about is a very small part of those reasons.

 

[AsenRG]

I'd make the adventurers arrive in the Keep of the Borderlands aiming to gain money and fame and start their own barony, maybe. Traditional D&D motivation FTW!

Then I'd have them wonder around the caves, meeting monsters and gaining treasures. Back at home, they're interacting with...

Spoiler: Spoiler for a 50yo adventure! WARNING!

...the traitorous NPC, and others.

It goes over their heads, until on the next foray, they meet the mad hermit. Something he says cues them off that there shall be a counterattack by the humanoids, so they abandon everything and come back to the base, in time to prevent a bigger slaughter.
However, an NPC that they've been romancing has been kidnapped. The movie ends with the party gearing up to save the NPC.

Cue final credits, because we need a set-up for Part Two.

and then mid-credits we cut to the actors sitting around a table with dice snd minis and a sweet Dwarven Forge type setup of the scene of the final battle and they’re all high-fiving and celebrating their victory, except the guy who died, who’s player is grumpily rolling the dice to generate a new character. And the DM (played by the actor who played tye main villain) is like “same time next week, guys?”

Also, this.

I mean, what part of this wouldn't happen in a campaign?

 

[EmperorNorton]

Every single time people talk about cutting to the table of people playing at the end of a movie I just think "Jesus christ that is hokey."

Idk, I don't know what would make a financially successful D&D movie, but I'm also pretty sure none of you guys do either.

 

[AsenRG]

Every single time people talk about cutting to the table of people playing at the end of a movie I just think "Jesus christ that is hokey."

Idk, I don't know what would make a financially successful D&D movie, but I'm also pretty sure none of you guys do either.

Inside jokes are going out of favour, I see...

 

[Voros]

Every single time people talk about cutting to the table of people playing at the end of a movie I just think "Jesus christ that is hokey."

Idk, I don't know what would make a financially successful D&D movie, but I'm also pretty sure none of you guys do either.

No offense to anybody but none of the ideas pitched in this thread have sounded like particularly good ideas to me.

A lot of high concept ideas but nothing that would have commercial success or even be very good artistically either.

Making movies is hard, making a commercially successful film is harder. If anyone knew the secret to making a hit we wouldn't get all these sequels, reboots, etc. That is done so much because familiarity is a warm blanket that promises but doesn't always deliver a predictable result.

 

[Dyrnwyn]

Making movies is hard, making a commercially successful film is harder. If anyone knew the secret to making a hit we wouldn't get all these sequels, reboots, etc.

And even the people who are really good at it don't get it right 100% of the time.

 

[sharps54]

And even the people who are really good at it don't get it right 100% of the time.

Exactly, look at the Scott brothers, very hit and miss.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Also, I'm going to be honest. I love the cognitive dissonance I am getting from this thread. Normally this forum is the first to point out that being the most financially successful doesn't necessarily mean the highest quality: IE: D&D isn't the best RPG just because it makes the most money.

But with the MCU movies, the fact that they are making less money is turned into a indictment of the quality of the films. Mostly because it fits with the person's preconceived notions.

Yeah, the movies have been doing worse at the box office after Endgame.

You know what happened after Endgame? Just saying as someone who still likes the MCU movies, I have been to the theater like... twice since the start of the pandemic.

I think also the issue is that we are back in a setting up phase, and everyone is used to the climax portion. Everything before Endgame builds up to Endgame. But now that we are passed Endgame we have to reestablish again to build up to something new.

 

[Urdlen's best boy]

I don't understand why they insist on trying to make some sort of high prod hollywood style movie when they'd get 1000x more their money's worth paying north koreans to make some sort of monster of the week dungeon anime

I'd watch a D&D movie by Uwe Boll tho

 

[Chris Brady]

One can write the online reviews now about how “Disney is back!” Or is that their bot farms pumping up the Acolyte?

People might think you're being funny, but most of the various social media promotion and 'fans' of Disney (as well as most other major studios) are actually Bots.