Irrational Hatreds in RPGs

[Savage Schemer]

It's funny, I distinctly remember, quite a few years back now, on another forum, there was this big thread where this guy was fretting over the correct way to apply the rules in this specific situation in his game. And it was pages of people giving these longwinded analysis of the rules of the game, and I just chipped in with "why not just roll a die, high roll do this,low roll do that, and get on with the game". And the reaction I got was just horror and anger. I got accused of being a "cheater", posters giving long-winded diatribes about "how they can always tell when a GM is fudging things".

I was bewildered. It was my first encounter of this complete shift in the gaming culture of that forum.

Such people would hate me. You basically just described my GM decision making process.

No. I totally disagree with that. I like FATE and Traveller but I find both of their fan bases excruciatingly annoying, each in their own special ways.

This I can agree with. Traveller has to be one of my all-time favorite games. But it became clear to me that other Traveller players on the internet play a totally different Traveller game than I do - and they're rigid and hyper-defensive about it, and there's no way for me to reconcile with them.

 

[Villein]

This I can agree with. Traveller has to be one of my all-time favorite games. But it became clear to me that other Traveller players on the internet play a totally different Traveller game than I do - and they're rigid and hyper-defensive about it, and there's no way for me to reconcile with them.

I have Traveller but have only played it briefly and know nothing about the fanbase, what is this different version?

 

[Savage Schemer]

I have Traveller but have only played it briefly and know nothing about the fanbase, what is this different version?

I mean it's become clear to me that I interpreted the game and play it differently than the vast majority of online fandom. I'd paint them as gearheads, more interested the more militaristic side of the game. They read the rules as holy writ, full of absolutes and Thou Shalts that shall never be deviated from. By contrast I play Traveller as a high pulp, action-oriented game of guys and gals getting into endless trouble out in the universe. I view literally ever last written word as something closer to suggestion. Everything in the book from character creation to the moving of cargo to the usage of ships, whatever, as guidelines to be played with and experimented upon -- or even left out altogether. Some folks have a hard time wrapping their head around that. They'll insist I'm not playing Traveller if / when I violate some sacred cow or another. I just shrug and keep on playing.

 

[Nobby-W]

[ . . . ]
This I can agree with. Traveller has to be one of my all-time favorite games. But it became clear to me that other Traveller players on the internet play a totally different Traveller game than I do - and they're rigid and hyper-defensive about it, and there's no way for me to reconcile with them.

My dissatisfaction with Traveller fanboys goes back quite a long way. For historical reasons mainly related to the way Traveller was distributed in Australasia, my hometown was something of a hotbed of Traveller fandom - it spawned several major fan contributors in TML, HIWG and COTI circles. By the beginning of the 1990s I had already concluded that most of the local Traveller players were taking themselves far too seriously.

At that point I did a homebrew system based on a hacked about version of Twilight:2000 1e and ran 4 campaigns with that. The last Traveller game I enjoyed playing in was about 1996 (and I handn't played it for some years before that). None of the players were Traveller regulars but at that point even admitting to being a Traveller player was something of an embarassment outside of hardcore fan circles.

The last Traveller game I played in was 2001 or 2002 and I gave up role playing for the better part of 15 years after that. After getting out of a rather unhealthy relationship in 2014 I decided to get back into role playing as I needed something to do.

I think there's more to it than just the internet; there's something about the system - perhaps the tinkerables and wargamey stuff around the fringes - that seems to appeal to folks who want to take themselves too seriously. The internet exacerbates it by providing an echo chamber but it's not the root cause.

I think the psychology of the obnoxious end of FATE fanboy-ism is different. It appears to stem from the some of the cultish stuff the designers did - use of FATE-specific jargon and emphasising a 'new' way of gaming. This sort of thing appeals to folks who want to feel superior in much the same way as evangelical religions do. Essentially it's tribalism driven around telling folks they have a new and better way of doing things. As above, I think it's much the same mechanism that makes Agile fanboys insufferable; the evangelical smugness and unshakeable belief in the innate superiority of their way of doing things. I've never had much in the way of dealings with PBTA fanboys but I imagine it's much the same process.

 

[Numidius]

Before we get into Is too/Is not...go to definitions of ”meta”.

U mean I should define, or go read something on this board? Excuse me, but I'm not English mother tongue ;)

I sit in my mid-40's.
I actually have a pair of D6's always nearby that I frequently just roll in an absent-minded, nervous habit sort of way.

Me too.
Funny, my pair of d6 I toy with are made of stone.

 

[E-Rocker]

I also don't care to hear how their latest hack is infinity superior to system x... but they like the setting.

Infinity +1.

 

[Faylar]

Infinity +1.

New phone... @#$#@

 

[E-Rocker]

My irrational hatred is Steampunk. I just don't get it.

Flowing from that is a rational, I think, annoyance: nearly every Weird West setting I've encountered has Steampunk elements. Can I please just have cowboys fighting vampires & suchlike without your stupid clockwork gadgets?

 

[Faylar]

My irrational hatred is Steampunk. I just don't get it.

Flowing from that is a rational, I think, annoyance: nearly every Weird West setting I've encountered has Steampunk elements. Can I please just have cowboys fighting vampires & suchlike without your stupid clockwork gadgets?

Omfg yes. This is one I dare not say at home. My wife likes Steampunk but... I hates it my precious!

Edit: its not irrational though. Its form without substance and well... grinds my gears.

Why put a cog and sprocket in your eye socket? WHY?????

 

[Stevethulhu]

Infinity +1.

I'll see your infinity +1 and raise you an infinite hotel.

 

[Faylar]

I'll see your infinity +1 and raise you an infinite hotel.

 

[Numidius]

My irrational hatred is Steampunk. I just don't get it.

Flowing from that is a rational, I think, annoyance: nearly every Weird West setting I've encountered has Steampunk elements. Can I please just have cowboys fighting vampires & suchlike without your stupid clockwork gadgets?

Teslapunk West is the solution! XD

 

[Faylar]

Teslapunk West is the solution! XD

That seems shockingly dry

 

[Lessa]

TBF I kind of feel like OSR games and D&D in general is the same way. You always get the "This game is perfect for everything" type folks.

I actually hear more fans of older games (D&D, GURPS, etc) saying "this game is perfect for everything" than fans of newer games like Fate or Pbta. But then I don't frequent many boards. Lately I just hang around here and the RPGCodex, both communities being pretty reasonable and ecletic overall.

 

[TristramEvans]

I actually hear more fans of older games (D&D, GURPS, etc) saying "this game is perfect for everything" than fans of newer games like Fate or Pbta. But then I don't frequent many boards.

Ugh, there was a period of a few years where you couldn't have any thread on TBP about looking for a game system or adapting a property to a game, without a steady chorus of JehoFate Witnessess, even if in the OP you specifically stated "not interested in Fate" or "anything but Fate". They'd even drop into discussions of other game systems to tell people they should just convert to Fate. Seriousl;y, it was endemic.

 

[Faylar]

Ugh, there was a period of a few years where you couldn't have any thread on TBP about looking for a game system or adapting a property to a game, without a steady chorus of JehoFate Witnessess, even if in the OP you specifically stated "not interested in Fate" or "anything but Fate". They'd even drop into discussions of other game systems to tell people they should just convert to Fate. Seriousl;y, it was endemic.

It drove me to drink... so here I am at the pub.

Was it fate? Or was it just a roll of the dice?

 

[E-Rocker]

Ugh, there was a period of a few years where you couldn't have any thread on TBP about looking for a game system or adapting a property to a game, without a steady chorus of JehoFate Witnessess, even if in the OP you specifically stated "not interested in Fate" or "anything but Fate". They'd even drop into discussions of other game systems to tell people they should just convert to Fate. Seriousl;y, it was endemic.

That's not the main reason I left that place, but it was definitely a factor.

 

[Lessa]

Yeah, I can totally see that happening over there.

I only rarely visit RPGnet these days. It's good for getting to know the new fads, but I can't really follow that place. It seems like things move too fast over there.

 

[Necrozius]

In those types of games, like 2d20, the GM usually is restricted so that he CAN’T just fiat everything, he has to play by the rules.

There’s lots of people who find this type of adversarial play liberating as a GM. The rules that restrict them let them play the game to the hilt and be as ruthless as they can be...within the rules. The chains set them free, etc. etc.

That actually makes a lot of sense. It's not for me, but I understand the concept. My sister would be a fan of this.

 

[Gabriel]

Ugh, there was a period of a few years where you couldn't have any thread on TBP about looking for a game system or adapting a property to a game, without a steady chorus of JehoFate Witnessess, even if in the OP you specifically stated "not interested in Fate" or "anything but Fate". They'd even drop into discussions of other game systems to tell people they should just convert to Fate. Seriousl;y, it was endemic.

I seem to recall Savage Worlds fans being like that too, I guess back in the mid 00s.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Ugh, there was a period of a few years where you couldn't have any thread on TBP about looking for a game system or adapting a property to a game, without a steady chorus of JehoFate Witnessess, even if in the OP you specifically stated "not interested in Fate" or "anything but Fate". They'd even drop into discussions of other game systems to tell people they should just convert to Fate. Seriousl;y, it was endemic.

Well then the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.

 

[Nobby-W]

Omfg yes. This is one I dare not say at home. My wife likes Steampunk but... I hates it my precious!

Edit: its not irrational though. Its form without substance and well... grinds my gears.

Why put a cog and sprocket in your eye socket? WHY?????

I don't mind steampunk but it's totally not necessary for a wild west setting. That was perhaps the most annoying thing about Wild, Wild West (the movie with Will Smith). It just didn't need the steampunk machines.

 

[E-Rocker]

Obligatory "GURPS Could Do That (tm)."

Please note that I actually think it's awesome that GURPS could do that, and it's awesome how very helpful GURPS fans are about explaining exactly how GURPS could do that. I just hate when "GURPS could do that" is given as an answer to a question that wasn't asked.

 

[TristramEvans]

I seem to recall Savage Worlds fans being like that too, I guess back in the mid 00s.

There was a rotating concept of "RPGnet darlings"

 

[Numidius]

That's why both my games have GM roll only

You mean "Players roll only"?

I can spend a lot more time thinking about what the foes of PC's do rather than rolling. (I'll note that Hearts & Souls has a HUGE amount of in character engagement on villain side for named villains at least.) You have to monologue and banter for them! That takes more work than rolling dice.

Right. Also the discreet and continued use of Gm fiat.

I like Shadowrun 6E so far

How so? I'm not familiar with 6e.

 

[Gabriel]

There was a rotating concept of "RPGnet darlings"

Yep. There was a little bit of a difference between the RPGnet Darlings and the Cults of Conversion, though. An RPGnet Darling didn't necessarily result in wandering bands of posters trying to get everyone to convert everything to a specific system. At least I don't recall the Exalted crowd jumping into every topic and suggesting converting everything over to it.

 

[TristramEvans]

Yep. There was a little bit of a difference between the RPGnet Darlings and the Cults of Conversion, though. An RPGnet Darling didn't necessarily result in wandering bands of posters trying to get everyone to convert everything to a specific system. At least I don't recall the Exalted crowd jumping into every topic and suggesting converting everything over to it.

True, Nobilis was a darling for a long time too, and I don't recall a similar fervour to the Fate advocates,

 

[Antiquation!]

Obligatory "GURPS Could Do That (tm)."

Please note that I actually think it's awesome that GURPS could do that, and it's awesome how very helpful GURPS fans are about explaining exactly how GURPS could do that. I just hate when "GURPS could do that" is given as an answer to a question that wasn't asked.

Given the bolded above, haven't you already answered your own question?

 

[Gabriel]

Obligatory "GURPS Could Do That (tm)."

Please note that I actually think it's awesome that GURPS could do that, and it's awesome how very helpful GURPS fans are about explaining exactly how GURPS could do that. I just hate when "GURPS could do that" is given as an answer to a question that wasn't asked.

That was how I felt at the game shop in the late 80s.

The guy who ran the place was named Gary. He was a GURPS fan before there was GURPS. When the original 1e box set launched, it was a big deal at his shop.

But Gary wasn't the problem. He was cool about it. The problem was some of his patrons. This included my best friend of the time who I occasionally rant about. For them, GURPS was the absolute pinnacle of gaming and everything must be converted to GURPS. No other games could be played. No other games were worthy of being played. All shall love GURPS and despair! They would seriously come into game rooms with games being run and start telling everyone that the game should be converted to GURPS.

 

[Antiquation!]

GURPS is my go-to game and by far my most-run/played RPG (not that I haven't played and liked many others), but as with any generic system you get a certain obnoxious fraction of the hardcore fanbase who go overboard on recommendations and "here is why my system is better, why aren't you listening to me?!" syndrome. I mean, certainly it *can* happen with non-generic RPGs but IME it's much less common.

The thing I do like about the GURPS community, however, is that (anecdotally of course) they overall seem more willing to engage in calm and earnest discourse about the system's boons and pitfalls and explain recommendations more regularly/thoroughly than some other generic system communities. Not that you don't get the stereotypical one-word response "GURPS" as a recommendation fairly regularly (which itself has become a bit of a meme over the years), just that there seems to be a slightly more favorable signal:noise ratio overall.

I think I have more bones to pick with blanket Fate recommendations versus campaign type than I do with GURPS recommendations versus campaign type; i.e. I (anecdotally) believe I've seen many more "Best system for a gritty war campaign featuring cheap death, strong/realistic vehicle rules and hit locations?" "Why Fate of course! And what REALLY does 'gritty' mean anyway? Consequences can describe hit location damage! Vehicles are just characters dude. Realism is all in your mind's eye really. Here, let me explain to you why your core premise and definitions are flawed and why Fate will work perfectly and breezily..."
than something like:
"Best system for super anime jet girls fighting skyscraper-sized shapeshifting kaiju?" "GURPS just homebrew it bro"

Of course, this could just be my personal distorted perception since I'm on the inside looking out and I'm simply as kooky as the rest. Though in my defense, I spent a good deal of time weaving my way through the Fate crowd too.

Savage Worlds I don't seem to see mis-recommended much, it's usually targeted pretty well and appropriate for the request. Genesys I'm lukewarm on in general so I roll my eyes a bit whenever it comes up in regards to basically anything. FUDGE is sort of a tragic case as I like it a lot and I'm glad to see it get occasionally recommended, but with the knowledge that the likelihood of new people picking it up approaches zero...

EDIT: I should say, this is all based almost purely on online discourse. I have yet to meet more than a handful of GURPS fans face-to-face... aside from all those players I've personally converted to the cult, that is.

 

[Faylar]

My GURPS interactions have been more or less good. One guy insisted that we drop Shadowrun and port it to GURPS... like every. Single. Session.
We just stopped inviting him.

 

[E-Rocker]

The thing I do like about the GURPS community, however, is that (anecdotally of course) they overall seem more willing to engage in calm and earnest discourse about the system's boons and pitfalls and explain recommendations more regularly/thoroughly than some other generic system communities.

The GURPS community seem, to me, like people who really like to get under the hood and tinker with things and figure out exactly how and why things work. Which is a neat mindset for me interact with, since my mind works very differently than that.

 

[tenbones]

I seem to recall Savage Worlds fans being like that too, I guess back in the mid 00s.

As a Savage Worlds fan (relatively newly minted) I'm very conscious of this myself. I like SW a *lot*... but it is for a very specific type of play. There are certain genres I would never use it for. And there are genres I do use it for that I would never try shoe-horn it in.

Basically it's just a good serviceable pick-up-and-play system with very good range of playstyle and scalability. But it's not the one-all-be-all a lot of people pretend it is.

It's why I'm currently looking at some heavier crunch (Mythras) to change things up a bit at my table.

 

[Antiquation!]

My GURPS interactions have been more or less good. One guy insisted that we drop Shadowrun and port it to GURPS... like every. Single. Session.
We just stopped inviting him.

LOL! You know, GURPS junkies are a very real danger. My brother's one; any time I try to pitch another system to him he suggests we just do it in GURPS. Sadly, so far rehab does not seem to be taking...

The GURPS community seem, to me, like people who really like to get under the hood and tinker with things and figure out exactly how and why things work. Which is a neat mindset for me interact with, since my mind works very differently than that.

Yeah, some of them are highly analytical and well-studied. I'm very much not, so frequently over at the SJgames forums I struggle to keep pace and sometimes get lost entirely. Oh well! I'm happy to continue on being the village idiot.

 

[Antiquation!]

As a Savage Worlds fan (relatively newly minted) I'm very conscious of this myself. I like SW a *lot*... but it is for a very specific type of play. There are certain genres I would never use it for. And there are genres I do use it for that I would never try shoe-horn it in.

Basically it's just a good serviceable pick-up-and-play system with very good range of playstyle and scalability. But it's not the one-all-be-all a lot of people pretend it is.

It's why I'm currently looking at some heavier crunch (Mythras) to change things up a bit at my table.

Mythras and M-Space are ones I've been dying to try for a while now. Super polished and they read as really gameable.

 

[Numidius]

These things. A solution in search of a problem.

View attachment 15506

Those have always been mandatory in our d100 games.

As an example, the Conan 2d20 game. Players roll 2d20, but can buy up three additional dice but each die gives the GM a Doom Point. The GM can use Doom to:

• Change a minion NPC to a regular NPC if he wants to make an encounter more dangerous.
• Use Doom to summon reinforcements.
• Use Doom to power many abilities. If the players have carefully starved you of Doom, then Thoth-Amon isn’t going to be able to use his abilities to the fullest.
• Etc.

The ”Narrative Throttle” is in the hands of the players. If they want to be crazyass S&S heroes, they give you the power to be as dangerous as you can...within the rules. If they just use standard probability and only roll 2d20, then the game will be much less heroic.

Thanks for the concise and comprehensive summary. Now that I read it, I'm starting to like it. Might give that undreamed Conan a try.

Well what is the point of having a GM if players are so concerned about "GM Fiat"?

Otherwise that player pretending to be a GM is just an accessory to an elaborate boardgame at best. What purpose do they actually serve other than to call one's self a "GM"... I'd call it a Boardgame Janitor... a BJ.

People with such "trust issues" probably shouldn't be playing RPG's. I certainly wouldn't want players at my table that didn't trust me as an actual GM.

Crass joke, but you have a point. I have an rpg table of heavy boardgamers and a structure to root roleplay in is important for them, to "trust" the gm.
Or a table of old friends that know each other and the specific setting perhaps too well: not a matter of trust, but of need to share content authority.
A board of janitors with the Gm primus inter pares. To the point of rotating Gms. It's not so out of the world as a concept.

It's not deep philosophy at all. The GM's job is to facilitate the world in which the PC's engage in to the best of their ability.

As above. Sometimes the job is facilitated by clear rules for everybody at the table.

 

[Endless Flight]

Now that I read it, I'm starting to like it. Might give that undreamed Conan a try.

 

[Dammit Victor]

At least I don't recall the Exalted crowd jumping into every topic and suggesting converting everything over to it.

Maybe not, but there was a solid decade where I couldn't describe what I wanted from D&D, or what I was trying to do with D&D, where the first and last and every single response wasn't "just play Exalted" when... well... Exalted isn't D&D and it only does a very small fraction of what I need my D&D game to do.

 

[Numidius]

Ah ah! You forumers detest it so much that already started to grow on me as an undesired side effect out of simple curiosity ;)

 

[Savage Schemer]

Ah ah! You forumers detest it so much that already started to grow on me as an undesired side effect out of simple curiosity ;)

I'm actually pretty ok with it. The 2D20 system may not be my absolute favorite, but I don't think it's bad at all. I want to say it really comes down to whether or not you're ok with metacurrency, but I can't say for sure. It's just what makes me think I get the 2D20 hate because, without that, I come up with nothing.