Mythras--how do you get into combat and attack?

[Charlie D]

I'm going to try Mythras again (superheroes this time). All you Mythras people out there, how do you get into combat and attack?

You have 2 action points. I have 2 AP. If I move up to you (1 AP) you could then attack me (1 AP). I Parry (last AP). You attack me again (your last AP) and I can't parry.

How does this work at the table? It really turned my group off of the game. Charge requires running ahead and isn't just an attack and move. How do you guys run this?

 

[Charlie D]

I think I'll let them use Outmaneuvering to Evade to get into position. If they win, they can attack. I know it is against groups normally, but I think it will work. And the opponent has to spend an AP to get to roll Evade.

 

[Baragei]

The rules of engagement are as follows:
You can only Move if you're not engaged. Thus if you are able to use the Move-action, you are not within melee-reach and only under threat by missiles or potentially wild-eyed chargers.
It is inferred, and I believe even spelled out, that movement into engagement - the range where an opponent can lunge out to hit you and vice versa - is not a separate action. Until the hitting starts, APs are not counted unless there is some tactical movement, spell prep or whatnot beforehand. Even so, combatants don't get to "save up" on their action points. For every action there is a reaction, so if combatant A uses one action point to move on his turn/cycle, it will stand to reason that combatant B does something that turn as well. And if they're not engaged yet B can do a lot of things, but gaining an AP-advantage is not one of them.
Using "reverse Outmaneuverering" to get into a fight with someone who doesn't want to fight is a perfectly fine ruling (because I do it, so of course it is). Using it to initiate every scrap might be a bit cumbersome.

 

[Charlie D]

I inferred a free move into combat to start initiative too. But if you down one opponent in combat and then want to move to another (while the combat still rages) I didn't think combat initiative would reset.

I just wish it was plainly spelled out. As complicated as the combats are, this rule seems really important.

So I'm back to winging it.

 

[Baragei]

In your example it kinda depends on whether the new victim is so close that you rule them as already engaged or not. If they are, then the hitting commences. Alternatively you could rule that the distance is big enough to demand using a (or several) turn to cover it. The poor sap would still not have much of an advantage just because he saw the the attacker approach.
If it makes you feel any better, it took a good while and then some to coax an official answer out of Loz regarding this little detail.

 

[Charlie D]

Is that the official answer? Seems like this would have come up many times and gone in as a rule.

 

[Bunch]

Raleel we summon thee!

 

[Bilharzia]

Raleel is the one to answer this, when we did our podcast episode on movement, he identified this from RQ6 as the most useful:

From 'Tactical Movement' which was somehow omitted from Mythras in the move from RQ6. For clarity I have removed references to charging.

Fundamentals of Movement
There are three basic concepts behind detailed tactical movement:

- Moving is not an independent act in its own right, and for the purposes of Tactical Movement is dropped as a Combat Action. Instead characters can freely move at the same time as performing other actions, although the gait (walking, running and sprinting) may restrict what can be performed at that speed.

- All movement is considered to be occurring simultaneously. Thus movement doesn’t occur in a jerky concertina but is resolved between all moving characters at the same time, extraneous to their actual Turn.

Tracking and Resolution of Movement
To keep track of Tactical Movement, two new elements are added to the structure of a Combat Round:

1. The declaration of movement at the start of the cycle
2. The execution of movement at the end of the cycle.

Each round is now resolved thus:
1. At the start of the first Cycle, the Games Master calls for the declaration of any character who wishes to Sprint, Run or Walk.
2. The first cycle is resolved, each character taking their actions as per normal.
3. At the end of the first Cycle, anyone who stated they were moving, moves up to half the distance permitted for their declared gait.
4. At the start of the second Cycle, the Games Master asks if anyone not running or sprinting wishes to Walk.
5. The second cycle is resolved, each character taking their actions as per normal.
6. At the end of the second Cycle, anyone moving, again moves up to half the distance permitted for their declared gait.
7. Any remaining cycles proceed as normal. No more movement occurs until the next round.

Actual execution of movement only happens at the end of each cycle. Since it is simultaneous it does not specifically matter in which order each character is moved, but using Initiative order can avoid oversight or unnecessary confusion.

There is more but I hope this helps. If you are using a map and distances, you may want to double movement rates, otherwise characters tend to crawl around the map, unless they are running or sprinting in which case they zap around like a pinball, but can barely take any actions.

 

[Raleel]

Baragei has been doing this longer than me! He’s at least as official, and probably more

You have 2 action points. I have 2 AP. If I move up to you (1 AP) you could then attack me (1 AP). I Parry (last AP). You attack me again (your last AP) and I can't parry.

I don’t let them spend action points until they are within a point where they could engage. Then the “move” becomes free and part of the attack. If the move from outside of this range, I don’t let the person they move to attack until AFTER the cycle is done - I.e. not until the other person gets a turn.

I just wish it was plainly spelled out. As complicated as the combats are, this rule seems really important.

So I'm back to winging it.

Yes, I agree, but I think it’s. A bit of a product of freeform rules and a very high granularity. It particularly hits folks who are used to moving and acting on their turn, like many d20 players and other lower granularity systems.

I inferred a free move into combat to start initiative too. But if you down one opponent in combat and then want to move to another (while the combat still rages) I didn't think combat initiative would reset.

It doesn’t, but if they are not engaged, they are still free to move. The time still needs to happen, though.

really, the tactical rules in RQ6, despite being different, illustrate the mindset a little better. Actions happen then movement happens, and the movement happens simultaneously.

 

[Raleel]

Actual execution of movement only happens at the end of each cycle. Since it is simultaneous it does not specifically matter in which order each character is moved, but using Initiative order can avoid oversight or unnecessary confusion.

This part is the critical piece. It solves so many of the issues. It also feels very wargamey, and can be a bit of an issue in the other direction for folks used to moving an acting on their action. But it’s logically consistent, and it does work nicely.

 

[Bunch]

Baragei has been doing this longer than me! He’s at least as official, and probably more


I don’t let them spend action points until they are within a point where they could engage. Then the “move” becomes free and part of the attack. If the move from outside of this range, I don’t let the person they move to attack until AFTER the cycle is done - I.e. not until the other person gets a turn.

Yes, I agree, but I think it’s. A bit of a product of freeform rules and a very high granularity. It particularly hits folks who are used to moving and acting on their turn, like many d20 players and other lower granularity systems.


It doesn’t, but if they are not engaged, they are still free to move. The time still needs to happen, though.

really, the tactical rules in RQ6, despite being different, illustrate the mindset a little better. Actions happen then movement happens, and the movement happens simultaneously.

Well they do a better job of flying under the radar as Mythras shill so good for them. Now everyone can see the power of marketing vs just being good at your job.

 

[Charlie D]

Um, I appreciate all the help, I really do, but these rules really hurt my head. I really want to like Mythras but my brain doesn't work like the rules in Mythras.

So if movement happens at the end of the cycle I don't have to use an AP to move?

So I parry (1 AP) and attack back (last AP) and down my foe. The cycle ends, so I can run over to the next guy? Then the next cycle starts? And if he runs towards me, we meet in the middle.

I can do that, but that doesn't make sense with the rule that movement costs 1 AP.

And, of course, that guy I move towards to attack could in turn just move away as I approach even if I have the initiative. And I'd be chasing him forever without ever catching up.

 

[Winterblight]

these rules really hurt my head. I really want to like Mythras but my brain doesn't work like the rules in Mythras.

I've just started to read Mythras for the 3rd time... I have to say I've struggled so far.

 

[Charlie D]

I'm going to pretend I found a simple and elegant solution in Mythras; hey look at this rule I found:

You can move and make a Hard attack (-20) for 1 AP or if you only move you move double the distance for 1 AP.

 

[Bilharzia]

Movement does not cost any action points, very simple.

This is what tactical movement implies, and is the way Classic Fantasy does it. You can add extra complications as you see fit.

 

[Mankcam]

I think maybe moving during a combat scene costs an AP, and if you are making an attack that same round you have a mod according to distance ( -20%/-40%). Otherwise it's free if you are close, but if you are covering alot of ground, then that costs another AP or something like that

 

[Mankcam]

I'm going to pretend I found a simple and elegant solution in Mythras; hey look at this rule I found:

You can move and make a Hard attack (-20) for 1 AP or if you only move you move double the distance for 1 AP.

ok yeah, I initially didn't see this, but it's pretty much a bit what I thought,
I will hunt down my rulebook in a sec

 

[Charlie D]

Movement does not cost any action points, very simple.

This is what tactical movement implies, and is the way Classic Fantasy does it. You can add extra complications as you see fit.

I'm going to pretend I found errata:

Movement does not cost any Action Points.

 

[Charlie D]

Movement does not cost any action points, very simple.

This is what tactical movement implies, and is the way Classic Fantasy does it. You can add extra complications as you see fit.

Classic Fantasy is exactly what I need. I'll use those combat rules. Thanks.

 

[Loz]

Here's the Move Combat Action quoted fully from the rules:

Move

Provided he is not engaged with an opponent, the character can move any distance the Games Master deems suitable for the situation. The Move Combat action is not required for every instance of movement during combat.

One does not need to spend an Action Point on Move to engage an opponent. For instance, a character crossing an open field to engage a group of archers would spend 1 Action Point to cover the distance. He would not, though, need to spend a further Action Point to initiate combat with one of the archers when he reaches their vantage point. He may use his next turn solely for his attack roll.

To summarise, use the Move Combat Action for:

Moving up towards a combat
Perform a dramatic action within combat (swing from a handy chandelier, for example)

Move is not necessary to engage an opponent.

So...

You have 2 action points. I have 2 AP. If I move up to you (1 AP) you could then attack me (1 AP). I Parry (last AP). You attack me again (your last AP) and I can't parry.

It works like this. You spend 1 Action Point in moving up to AND attacking the opponent. The character is now Engaged. The opponent spends 1 AP parrying, and on his/her next turn, spends an AP to retaliate. Your character still has 1 AP left to defend. Combat continues until Engagement is somehow broken. Let's assume that Charlie's character has felled his opponent and wants to swivel round to help his friend who's losing their own engagement. Let's assume this new opponent is just a couple of metres away. Charlie's character can now spend 1 AP to move across to the enemy hacking at Charlie's comrade AND engage him - using that 1 AP move over AND hit. The distant isn't great, and Charlie's character is no longer Engaged, so it's a seamless thing to do.

However, if Charlie's character instead wanted to run to assist another comrade who is 30 metres away with another foe, the GM can rule that this requires a Sprint (5x Movement rate, Mythras p69) and requires Charlie's next two Turns to be consumed with the Sprint. This would therefore cost Charlie's character 1 Action Point form part of the Sprint, but on the second Turn, his Action Point is used to complete the 30 metre dash AND strike at the distant opponent.

The rules are structured and worded as they are to prevent Combat Teleportation, with characters whizzing around at will, dealing out damage regardless of distance. Once you're actively engaged in exchanging blows, your movement is heavily restricted until that engagement can be broken so that you're free to move again. However, moving into a new engagement isn't meant to be a multi-AP spend; it's intended to be fluid, while retaining some degree of realism.

If you prefer movement that's more tactically precise, and uses a higher degree of regulation for movement, then I'd suggest using the Tactical Combat rules found in the Mythras Companion. These are developed from the battlegrid movement system used in Classic Fantasy, and you may find them to significantly aid your understanding of how the combat system flows.

We're also developing a new Mythras Combat Training module for unarmed combat and bar-room brawls. We'll ensure this deals with movement, showing how it works, explaining how to use it effectively, and how to get the most from it.

I hope the above helps.

 

[Charlie D]

Here's the Move Combat Action quoted fully from the rules:



So...



It works like this. You spend 1 Action Point in moving up to AND attacking the opponent. The character is now Engaged. The opponent spends 1 AP parrying, and on his/her next turn, spends an AP to retaliate. Your character still has 1 AP left to defend. Combat continues until Engagement is somehow broken. Let's assume that Charlie's character has felled his opponent and wants to swivel round to help his friend who's losing their own engagement. Let's assume this new opponent is just a couple of metres away. Charlie's character can now spend 1 AP to move across to the enemy hacking at Charlie's comrade AND engage him - using that 1 AP move over AND hit. The distant isn't great, and Charlie's character is no longer Engaged, so it's a seamless thing to do.

However, if Charlie's character instead wanted to run to assist another comrade who is 30 metres away with another foe, the GM can rule that this requires a Sprint (5x Movement rate, Mythras p69) and requires Charlie's next two Turns to be consumed with the Sprint. This would therefore cost Charlie's character 1 Action Point form part of the Sprint, but on the second Turn, his Action Point is used to complete the 30 metre dash AND strike at the distant opponent.

The rules are structured and worded as they are to prevent Combat Teleportation, with characters whizzing around at will, dealing out damage regardless of distance. Once you're actively engaged in exchanging blows, your movement is heavily restricted until that engagement can be broken so that you're free to move again. However, moving into a new engagement isn't meant to be a multi-AP spend; it's intended to be fluid, while retaining some degree of realism.

If you prefer movement that's more tactically precise, and uses a higher degree of regulation for movement, then I'd suggest using the Tactical Combat rules found in the Mythras Companion. These are developed from the battlegrid movement system used in Classic Fantasy, and you may find them to significantly aid your understanding of how the combat system flows.

We're also developing a new Mythras Combat Training module for unarmed combat and bar-room brawls. We'll ensure this deals with movement, showing how it works, explaining how to use it effectively, and how to get the most from it.

I hope the above helps.

Thanks. That helps a lot.

 

[Mankcam]

Well that beats me checking my book!

 

[Charlie D]

I realized what happened. We played quite a while with Mythras Imperative. And that quoted text from Loz wasn't in there that I could find. Here's what is in MI:

Proactive Actions The following are activities a character can attempt on his Turn by spending an Action Point. Note that some actions such as spell cast‐ ing or reloading may take several turns to complete; each turn cost‐ ing its own Action Point.

Move: Provided he is not engaged with an opponent, the character can move any distance the Games Master deems suitable for the situation.

My players would have had quite a different experience with the full rules.

Well, good news is we're playing Mythras again tonight and we will use the full rules for moving.