Nu-TSR suing WotC: Schadenfreude is back on the menu, boys!

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Endless Flight said:
These sorts of people have always existed. They just didn’t have the internet as their megaphone when we were youngsters.
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Internet has done wonders in helping people with obscure interests find each other and talk about things. Which is amazing when it is stuff like "wow, I finally found other people who will sit and talk about the 90s cartoon Exo-Squad with me", but sucks major ass when it is that they've finally found people to help reinforce their hatred of black people/jews/etc.
 
I have to wonder if they actually like and use this kind of stuff, or if they're pandering to what they think their target audience would find appealing. I'm inclined to the former, but neither one speaks well of them at all.
 
Appealing, appalling, certain circles are not so much into nuance or spelling.

:blah: I was going to joke this is the new song that never ends, but my happy memories of Lambchop forbids me.
 
You know, through all of this, I just always come back to how much this sucks for the rest of the Gygax family. I know Luke Gygax has said he tried to reach out to Ernie, but at this point it just must suck cause it's like, what do you even do.
 
Gringnr said:
This is an exchange released by Tenkar:
View attachment 47717
I'm starting to think "Matt Lock, Esq." was real...
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JEESES!!!

This is the dumpster fire that keeps on burning. Just when you think they're out of trash more burning trash appears beneath it. Tenkar's reply is PRICELESS! These people are next level stupid.
 
EmperorNorton said:
You know, through all of this, I just always come back to how much this sucks for the rest of the Gygax family. I know Luke Gygax has said he tried to reach out to Ernie, but at this point it just must suck cause it's like, what do you even do.
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Luke made a kind of cryptic tweet the other day about (paraphrasing here) not engaging with people that keep doing maddeningly dumb stuff. I feel for him, too.
 
EmperorNorton said:
You know, through all of this, I just always come back to how much this sucks for the rest of the Gygax family. I know Luke Gygax has said he tried to reach out to Ernie, but at this point it just must suck cause it's like, what do you even do.
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Yeah. I get that Ernie has 'issues' but there comes a point where if you constantly insist on hanging around with a bunch of wankers I'm not going to stop to question whether you're that group's token non-wanker.
 
Picaroon Jack said:
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Maybe, I'm getting jaded in my old age, but... So what? No, seriously. So what? It's a fictional race in a fictional game setting that you can easily change as per your personal conceits. House rule the thing to death. And this is assuming you even get the game in the first place. I won't, so I don't care.

This has only enough meaning as the person being offended by it wants it to have. And frankly, to ME is more an indictment of them than the actual creator. I'd be more interested in the readability and the cohesiveness of the rules. As it is, there's been nothing to get my attention.
 
Chris Brady said:
Maybe, I'm getting jaded in my old age, but... So what? No, seriously. So what? It's a fictional race in a fictional game setting that you can easily change as per your personal conceits. House rule the thing to death. And this is assuming you even get the game in the first place. I won't, so I don't care.

This has only enough meaning as the person being offended by it wants it to have. And frankly, to ME is more an indictment of them than the actual creator. I'd be more interested in the readability and the cohesiveness of the rules. As it is, there's been nothing to get my attention.
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Chris, the race is called “negro”! What’s fictional about that??? I know people are very sensitive about certain subjects in the RPG community and people get knee-jerky, but this is flat out wrong by any metric! I don’t even have to go into the whys.
 
Endless Flight said:
Chris, the race is called “negro”! What’s fictional about that??? I know people are very sensitive about certain subjects in the RPG community and people get knee-jerky, but this is flat out wrong by any metric! I don’t even have to go into the whys.
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Not to mention it makes the hobby look bad. I can see the headlines now "Son of Dungeons and Dragons founder tied to racists"
 
Chris Brady said:
Maybe, I'm getting jaded in my old age, but... So what? No, seriously. So what? It's a fictional race in a fictional game setting that you can easily change as per your personal conceits. House rule the thing to death. And this is assuming you even get the game in the first place. I won't, so I don't care.

This has only enough meaning as the person being offended by it wants it to have. And frankly, to ME is more an indictment of them than the actual creator. I'd be more interested in the readability and the cohesiveness of the rules. As it is, there's been nothing to get my attention.
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Well, it has the meaning that the author is blatantly, obviously racist. That I'm not so can change that or not buy the game seems rather besides the point. I mean, there's a lot in life that I'm "so what?" about, but blatant bigotry just isn't one of those things - it crosses the line for me to "not socially acceptable under any crcumstances". I won't even say that I'm offended, I think it's too stupid for me to actually take offense, but I do find it morally repugnant.
 
Giganotosaurus said:
Not to mention it makes the hobby look bad. I can see the headlines now "Son of Dungeons and Dragons founder tied to racists"
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I've been told I'm not allowed to bring that up, but... And I apologize and accept any punishment because I sincerely believe I deserve it. But THEY ALREADY ARE.

The only thing I can think of this is doing is drumming up attention for the product. The writer is clearly trying to get some sort of buzz, negative or positive, cuz outside of D&D, no one talks about any sort of RPG outside of the circles like the Pub.

I'm not going to give this any attention beyond rolling my eyes. If people want to think I'm an X, well, too late they probably already do, and there's nothing I'm going to say nor do that'll convince them otherwise. So fine, I'm going to be over here playing my games my way with my friends.

Honestly, I only jumped in here because I'm curious about how the potential court case is going but there doesn't seem to be any filings or counters. Unless i missed something... Wouldn't be the first time.
 
Endless Flight said:
Chris, the race is called “negro”! What’s fictional about that??? I know people are very sensitive about certain subjects in the RPG community and people get knee-jerky, but this is flat out wrong by any metric! I don’t even have to go into the whys.
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Yeah this really isn't a case of I have to stretch to look sideways to see the way this could be taken as racist. It's pretty much from the manual of how to view white supremacy. Dark skinned people are muscular but inferior. White people are better. Just so you don't have to wonder lets use an outdated term that has strong association with legalized segregation to drive the point home.

Now I think you're right on the point that we should probably stop amplifying this stuff. At this point it's gone from freak show train wreck watching to helping them get publicity.
 
EmperorNorton said:
It's like they are aiming for the title of "Worst RPG Ever Made".
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FATAL looks askance at the new challenger and starts asking about its anal circumference stats...:shade:

Clearly, it's going to be resolved by an extreme wrestling match, winner takes all, FATAL ruleset*:skeleton:.

*Due to some wrinkles in said ruleset, attendance of the event is strictly 18+ and TVs are well-advised to only translate it in the late-night spot:devil:.
Bunch said:
Yeah this really isn't a case of I have to stretch to look sideways to see the way this could be taken as racist.
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Yeah...you all probably know how I'm all for keeping fictional races fictional and not going out of our ways to draw real-world analogues. We've been on this forum for long enough that I've probably bored you to near-comatose states by this argument.
I still subscribe to it, BTW:thumbsup:.
And yet, that Negro race crosses the line even in my book...there's "fictional", and then there's "too many coincidences to be fictional:fu:".

I mean, I thought nobody would manage to get me to condemn a fictional race, but people seem to be endlessly inventive these days...:shock:

Bunch said:
It's pretty much from the manual of how to view white supremacy. Dark skinned people are muscular but inferior. White people are better. Just so you don't have to wonder lets use an outdated term that has strong association with legalized segregation to drive the point home.
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Ayup...and the cap on Intelligence is just moronic beyond belief:thumbsdown:.

Bunch said:
Now I think you're right on the point that we should probably stop amplifying this stuff. At this point it's gone from freak show train wreck watching to helping them get publicity.
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Might be for the better.
 
Black Leaf said:
Yeah. I get that Ernie has 'issues' but there comes a point where if you constantly insist on hanging around with a bunch of wankers I'm not going to stop to question whether you're that group's token non-wanker.
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I was listening to Tim Krask ramble on his channel, and he severely distances his "old guard' crowd" from the supposedly "old guard crowd" at Lake Geneva these days.
Tim has refered to his ongoing connection with Luke Gygax several times, and has mentioned more than once that Luke Gygax wants to distance himself quite a bit from Ernie Gygax.
This was on Tim's channel last year when Ernie was drumming up noise about the so-called D&D Museum in Lake Geneva, and was also ignoring all queries regarding long overdrawn crowdfunded project.
Tim was also very bitter that Ernie and his crowd (LaNasa etc) had the potential to get many camps in the rpg industry misconceived as bigots, racists and such, so this latest reveal on Tenkar's site seems to see this prediction come to light.

yeah it's all very sad and kinda pathetic
 
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AsenRG said:
FATAL looks askance at the new challenger and starts asking about its anal circumference stats...:shade:

Clearly, it's going to be resolved by an extreme wrestling match, winner takes all, FATAL ruleset*:skeleton:.

*Due to some wrinkles in said ruleset, attendance of the event is strictly 18+ and TVs are well-advised to only translate it in the late-night spot:devil:.

Yeah...you all probably know how I'm all for keeping fictional races fictional and not going out of our ways to draw real-world analogues. We've been on this forum for long enough that I've probably bored you to near-comatose states by this argument.
I still subscribe to it, BTW:thumbsup:.
And yet, that Negro race crosses the line even in my book...there's "fictional", and then there's "too many coincidences to be fictional:fu:".

I mean, I thought nobody would manage to get me to condemn a fictional race, but people seem to be endlessly inventive these days...:shock:


Ayup...and the cap on Intelligence is just moronic beyond belief:thumbsdown:.


Might be for the better.
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I mean that's the thing. A lot of us here are not looking for ways to be inflamed. We'll give the benefit of the doubt. This you can't not see it or accidentally miss the connection.
 
Chris Brady said:
The only thing I can think of this is doing is drumming up attention for the product.
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I mean, anyone who hears this stuff about the product and is like "oh yeah, that's what I want from an RPG" is already "in that camp" , as it were. RPGs don't turn people racist, it's somethig they bring to it on their own.
 
It has to have been done on purpose. Either to generate publicity (roll +2 Edgelord) or to signal to other racists that this is the game for them ("Buy Star Frontiers, the game for the anti-woke!").
 
Stumpydave said:
It has to have been done on purpose. Either to generate publicity (roll +2 Edgelord) or to signal to other racists that this is the game for them ("Buy Star Frontiers, the game for the anti-woke!").
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You're giving them too much credit, I suspect.
 
Chris Brady said:
Maybe, I'm getting jaded in my old age, but... So what? No, seriously. So what? It's a fictional race in a fictional game setting that you can easily change as per your personal conceits. House rule the thing to death. And this is assuming you even get the game in the first place. I won't, so I don't care.

This has only enough meaning as the person being offended by it wants it to have. And frankly, to ME is more an indictment of them than the actual creator. I'd be more interested in the readability and the cohesiveness of the rules. As it is, there's been nothing to get my attention.
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Chris, sorry, but no. Just no.

I hate everything to do with woke as much as anyone but a "negro" of limited intelligence subrace of a superior race of blonde-haired blue eyed ubermensch is just *A TAD* too on the nose. If you do that, you're either going for a "The Producers"-like satire, or you're a fucking genuine neo-nazi.
 
Luca said:
I hate everything to do with woke as much as anyone but a "negro" of limited intelligence subrace of a superior race of blonde-haired blue eyed ubermensch is just *A TAD* too on the nose. If you do that, you're either going for a "The Producers"-like satire, or you're a fucking genuine neo-nazi.
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Yeah, exact same here...and also applies to Stumpydave Stumpydave (sorry, man, but the idea that you're either pro-woke or racist is...the middle called and wants you to stop excluding it:thumbsup:).
 
AsenRG said:
Yeah, exact same here...and also applies to Stumpydave Stumpydave (sorry, man, but the idea that you're either pro-woke or racist is...the middle called and wants you to stop excluding it:thumbsup:).
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I didn't read Stumpydave Stumpydave 's statement that way, I think he was just postulating that this was possibly a ploy to signal to people who use the anti-woke/politically incorrect label as an excuse to cover up their racism(I'll refrain from examples, but I'm sure we all know the type).

That said, I'd prefer we not bring "woke" or any othersynonyms into the conversation, as I think NuTSR's racism is blatant enough to stand on it's own , speaking as, like you, a member of the oft-excluded middle.
 
Mankcam said:
I was listening to Tim Krask ramble on his channel, and he severely distances his "old guard' crowd" from the supposedly "old guard crowd" at Lake Geneva these days.
Tim Krask has refered to his ongoing connection with Luke Gygax several times, and has mentioned more than once that Luke Gygax wants to distance himself quite a bit from Ernie Gygax.
This was on Tim Krask's channel last year when Ernie was drumming up noise about the so-called D&D Museum in Lake Geneva, and was also ignoring all queries regarding long overdrawn crowdfunded project.
Tim was also very bitter that Ernie and his crowd (LaNasa etc) had the potential to get many camps in the rpg industry misconceived as bigots, racists and such, so this latest reveal on Tenkar's site seems to see this prediction come to light.

yeah it's all very sad and kinda pathetic
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I feel for Luke, it's got to be hard to have to turn one's back on one brother,, especially coming from a family already so divded.

Definitely the correct choice, but can't be a easy one. Though it's highly unlikely, I kinda wish there was a redemption arc for Ernie in the future, before one of them passes and it's too late.
 
TristramEvans said:
I didn't read Stumpydave Stumpydave 's statement that way, I think he was just postulating that this was possibly a ploy to signal to people who use the anti-woke/politically incorrect label as an excuse to cover up their racism(I'll refrain from examples, but I'm sure we all know the type).

That said, I'd prefer we not bring "woke" or any othersynonyms into the conversation, as I think NuTSR's racism is blatant enough to stand on it's own , speaking as, like you, a member of the oft-excluded middle.
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Maybe I've misread him, and besides, you're right. Let's move on...:thumbsup:

TristramEvans said:
I feel for Luke, it's got to be hard to have to turn one's back on one brother,, especially coming from a family already so divded.

Definitely the correct choice, but can't be a easy one. Though it's highly unlikely, I kinda wish there was a redemption arc for Ernie in the future, before one of them passes and it's too late.
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If there is, we'll see how narrative his life could get:shade:!
 
TristramEvans said:
I didn't read Stumpydave Stumpydave 's statement that way, I think he was just postulating that this was possibly a ploy to signal to people who use the anti-woke/politically incorrect label as an excuse to cover up their racism(I'll refrain from examples, but I'm sure we all know the type).

That said, I'd prefer we not bring "woke" or any othersynonyms into the conversation, as I think NuTSR's racism is blatant enough to stand on it's own , speaking as, like you, a member of the oft-excluded middle.
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<points up> This.
 
TristramEvans said:
I didn't read Stumpydave Stumpydave 's statement that way, I think he was just postulating that this was possibly a ploy to signal to people who use the anti-woke/politically incorrect label as an excuse to cover up their racism(I'll refrain from examples, but I'm sure we all know the type).

That said, I'd prefer we not bring "woke" or any othersynonyms into the conversation, as I think NuTSR's racism is blatant enough to stand on it's own , speaking as, like you, a member of the oft-excluded middle.
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As someone who finds "Woke" to be incredibly exhausting, I concur with Tristan and Dave here.

One of the reasons this NuTSR situation sucks so very, very much is that it's going to validate some of the worst actors and lead to them becoming even more aggressive.
 
Torque2100 said:
As someone who finds "Woke" to be incredibly exhausting, I concur with Tristan and Dave here.

One of the reasons this NuTSR situation sucks so very, very much is that it's going to validate some of the worst actors and lead to them becoming even more aggressive.
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Well the good thing about that is they will help everyone to see who they are and we’ll know to avoid them in the future. Every community has shitbirds and the RPG community has more than its share, on both sides of the ideological aisle, so while I had written these clowns off long ago this just confirms that was a good decision.

As far as making the hobby look bad I admit it sucks but realistically there isn’t a ton to do about it. The problem with a joint statement condemning them is that the people that don’t sign get painted as Nazis. I suppose every single company or person on social media can openly condemn them but that seems like a lot more effort then these asshats deserve, best to totally ignore them and let them sink it in obscurity.
 
sharps54 said:
As far as making the hobby look bad I admit it sucks but realistically there isn’t a ton to do about it. The problem with a joint statement condemning them is that the people that don’t sign get painted as Nazis. I suppose every single company or person on social media can openly condemn them but that seems like a lot more effort then these asshats deserve, best to totally ignore them and let them sink it in obscurity.
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This is a big point for me. A bunch of idiots made an idiotic race-bait RPG, and the rest is out there if you care enough to look. Finding ways to center them into conversations about the hobby beyond sharing this simple and credible opinion gives too much credit to them, and too little credit to just about everyone else.
 
AsenRG said:
Yeah...you all probably know how I'm all for keeping fictional races fictional and not going out of our ways to draw real-world analogues. We've been on this forum for long enough that I've probably bored you to near-comatose states by this argument.
I still subscribe to it, BTW:thumbsup:.
And yet, that Negro race crosses the line even in my book...there's "fictional", and then there's "too many coincidences to be fictional:fu:".
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Indeed. There's no plausible deniability here, there's no dog whistles, it's just straight up "Fido, come here Fido!".

And it's bad in isolation, but combined with the rest of the text, the game's target audience is entirely clear.
 
JamesV said:
This is a big point for me. A bunch of idiots made an idiotic race-bait RPG, and the rest is out there if you care enough to look. Finding ways to center them into conversations about the hobby beyond sharing this simple and credible opinion gives too much credit to them, and too little credit to just about everyone else.
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This isn't even a new thing. Remember the magic items in FATAL?
 
Torque2100 said:
As someone who finds "Woke" to be incredibly exhausting, I concur with Tristan and Dave here.

One of the reasons this NuTSR situation sucks so very, very much is that it's going to validate some of the worst actors and lead to them becoming even more aggressive.
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...alas, I agree on both counts.

Stumpydave said:
<points up> This.
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OK, sorry for misunderstanding you:thumbsup:!

Ladybird said:
Indeed. There's no plausible deniability here, there's no dog whistles, it's just straight up "Fido, come here Fido!".

And it's bad in isolation, but combined with the rest of the text, the game's target audience is entirely clear.
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...to be entirely honest, I didn't see much point in bothering with the rest of the text. I kinda don't see myself buying it, even if there were decent odds that I'd find something actually interesting mechanically:shade:.
 
Endless Flight said:
Chris, the race is called “negro”! What’s fictional about that??? I know people are very sensitive about certain subjects in the RPG community and people get knee-jerky, but this is flat out wrong by any metric! I don’t even have to go into the whys.
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Pretty much. I roll my eyes hard at a lot of this nonsense, but this is pretty much the first I've seen one of these complaints and turned out to be actual racism/bigotry, rather than people wanting to find "-isms" everywhere.

I get second hand embarrassment watching this nuTSR trainwreck unfold. Not only have they completely FAILED to produce anything of value in years of trying to wrestle the "TSR" brand from WotC, while talking a big game and threatening to sue everyone. But they finally managed to give actually racism to the people desperately looking for it everywhere.

This is beyond pathetic!
 
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