OSR: what is it even

[JoeNuttall]

From my personal perspective, coming back to RPGs in 2010 I decided to run D&D for my children. Looking at 4E it just wasn't D&D. Pathfinder was an option, and I bought the books, but it was over complex. I decided to run B/X and discovered through play that a mix of OD&D, B/X, and AD&D worked fantastically where later versions added little. Looking online for help I found the OSR blogs.

It turned out that something similar was happening to a lot of people.

So, to me, it seemed the complexity of 3E made a small number of people look back to early editions (some of course had never stopped), the OGL made it possible for retroclones to exist, then 4E forced people away from the latest version so they went to look for alternatives, and since WOTC had removed the pdfs some landed on Pathfinder, some landed on TSR era D&D - and some of those people used retroclones. People played a lot and talked a lot about this online, and that was the OSR.

Agree on the OSR. I don't understand the motivation to include other games than D&D evolved and I although they are "old" I wouldn't consider any BRP based game OSR.

Agreed. The influence of the OSR spread outside of D&D, but OSR-influenced does not equal OSR. When I'm thinking of playing 1E Rolemaster, it's not OSR - but my decision was influenced by my OSR experience.

It's also not true that OSR was never a specific playstyle, any more than D&D ever had a specific playstyle, nor a philosophy any more complicated than "I'm having fun playing old versions of D&D".

 

[JoeNuttall]

Since I was trashing Rahasia, it only seems reasonable to comment on the fact that when people talk about

Modern milestone xp is similar, in that goals are set that don't require combat all the time.

and

I played loads of D&D with gold as xp and it was all hack n' slash until we got older and found combat increasing boring and a grind and wanted different things from the game.

That, getting older and wanting different things from the game, shaped play far more than a rule that was largely taken for granted and unexamined until the arrival of the many optional xp rules in 2e.

it's interesting to note that Rahasia was actually one of the earliest dungeons to include XP rewards for achieving goals other than collecting gold and killing monsters. You get points for freeing captives, and more points for capturing the villain than for killing him.

But this isn't actually the first - Tournaments awarded points for good play, and some awarded points for acting as the character would, and taking this concept further The Beholder published a series of "Competition Dungeons" starting with The Pyrus Complex a month earlier than Rahasia, in April 1979. You got points for things such as "Gamble with an elephant in the Mite's treasury" or "Survive the Death Barge". The suggestion was to turn these points into XP if you played it as part of a campaign.

It's always interesting when a modern concept predates the DMG!

 

[SJB]

Looking online for help I found the OSR blogs.

The influence of the OSR spread outside of D&D, but OSR-influenced does not equal OSR. When I'm thinking of playing 1E Rolemaster, it's not OSR - but my decision was influenced by my OSR experience.

I made the same journey around the same time. My memory is that some bloggers were happy to include other rule systems under the OSR banner. Grognardia took a close interest in Traveller and T&T, and noted that RQ was merely a personal blindspot. More recently I thought “Classic Traveller: Out of the Box” from Tales to Astound was about the most OSR series I’ve read.

 

[T. Foster]

The OSR was always supposed to be about more than D&D. It just got sidetracked because 1) D&D has always (except for maybe a couple years in the mid-90s) been the 800# gorilla that dominates conversation, and 2) the OGL and SRD made “cloning” D&D and releasing your own stuff commercially viable in a way that wasn’t true (at least early on) for other games (Cepheus Engine etc. came along later). And then once it became established that “OSR = D&D” it became self-reinforcing and now it’s too late, at least as far as using it as a label for commercial products.

You can still talk about an “osr” playstyle that is applicable to lots of different games, not even necessarily old ones, but “OSR” as a marketing tag for commercial products is pretty much synonymous with D&D-derived rules, even moreso than it is with “osr” playstyle (I.e.there’s plenty of “OSR” D&D-derived stuff that commits all the trad-style sins of linearity and railroading, Mary Sue NPCs, excessive read-aloud text, irrelevant backstory, etc. that “osr” was originally defined in opposition to).

 

[Acmegamer]

Huh, here I thought OSR (Old School Revival) was some sort of summoning/raise dead spell used to bring us old grognards back from the tabletop rpg graveyard. It isn't? I mean look at someone like me, gamed heavily from 1978 until 2000 and then while obviously drunk thought that the genre was dying and that the future was with online mmorpgs.

(Stupid me, it was kinda looking like it was online but not for another 15 years and not in the way I thought, not mmorpgs) Deciding while once again obviously drunk that give away almost all of my rather extensive gaming library to an old military buddy was the best choice.

Ten years later waking up from my deluded ten year stumbling drunken phase to figure out that I was terribly wrong. Heeding the high level OSR Grognard summoning Spell I stumbled right back into the fray. Yep, that's what I feel OSR is and you can't make me think differently. Everything else is just mental masturbation.

OSR = Bring back old gamers into the fold and convince them to spend disgusting amounts of money collecting old material and falling in love with new. So there! And I won't hear anything to the contrary!

 

[JoeNuttall]

I made the same journey around the same time. My memory is that some bloggers were happy to include other rule systems under the OSR banner. Grognardia took a close interest in Traveller and T&T, and noted that RQ was merely a personal blindspot. More recently I thought “Classic Traveller: Out of the Box” from Tales to Astound was about the most OSR series I’ve read.

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

 

[ffilz]

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

There has been a RuneQuest renaissance. It was started by the Kickstarter re-releasing almost all the RQ1 and RQ2 products. It then continued with the new edition being based on, and largely compatible with, RQ2. Combined with a community content license that allows people to publish in Glorantha with acceptable terms, there's quite a renaissance.

I would also say that Classic Traveller is having a renaissance with the general interest in original games and the production of Cepheus to provide a route to publishing.

 

[JoeNuttall]

There has been a RuneQuest renaissance. It was started by the Kickstarter re-releasing almost all the RQ1 and RQ2 products. It then continued with the new edition being based on, and largely compatible with, RQ2. Combined with a community content license that allows people to publish in Glorantha with acceptable terms, there's quite a renaissance.

I would also say that Classic Traveller is having a renaissance with the general interest in original games and the production of Cepheus to provide a route to publishing.

Yes, there were indeed later renaissances in these. Which was my point!

 

[SJB]

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

”Tenkar: Even those of us ass deep in Old School D&D and it's derivatives and offspring have a special place in our hearts for other Old School RPGs. It's OK. Really. You can have more than one true love.

For me, the other Old School systems that hold that special place for me are Tunnels & Trolls and RuneQuest - 5e and the Chaosium versions respectively, but I can make allowances for later editions. Oh, and Traveller too. Not Mega, not 2300AD, but the true Traveller of the little black books.

Dyson Logos: Where do you draw the "old school" line?

Tenkar: it's a very indistinct line ;)

Purple Duck: More of a smudge really.“

 

[Toadmaster]

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

Oh there is an ongoing revival, but those games were already near perfection so it is harder to notice.

Honestly I think Traveller and RQ/BRP are about as popular as they ever have been.

Really a lot of the old classics have gone through their own updates, many similar to what is happening with D&D. Traveller has seen 5 editions with GDW / Mark Miller, but there are also "clones", mostly based around Classic Traveller, Mongoose Traveller and Cepheus Engine being the two main side branches. Runequest / BRP has a whole host of variants Mythras, Legend, Renaissance, Open Quest, and of course a revival of RQ2 now back under Chaosium.

I think this is awesome, as I like these games I just don't subscribe to calling these OSR because to me they are completely different things and lumping every revival of an old game under the same umbrella is confusing.


Now my opening line in this post was kind of a joke, but it also isn't. I'm not looking for the same kind of changes in other older games as I am in D&D. To me D&D is a flawed game with tons of potential. Once I found other games I was never really happy with any of the TSR / WOTC versions. I liked many of the ideas but there were always some major flaws.
I like the relative simplicity of the TSR era D&D games, but they tended to be a bit too rigid, and not quite to my preferred style.
3E simply missed the mark for me, not a terrible game but there are so many other games I like that do the same thing only better. I feel the same about Pathfinder.
4E I didn't even go there, as it seemed to do something I wasn't interested in.
I probably could have been mostly satisfied with 5E for my "D&D" fix, but I came late to it and by that time WOTC was already screwing around with its future, talking about a 6E, then One D&D and then they started doing stuff as a company that I have no interest in supporting.

Then we come to the clones and here I have been pleased. Yes there are a ton of them, some better than others, but here I am finding some games that hit a sweet spot when I'm in the mood for a game of that general complexity.
Far from just copy and paste there are some very creative games using the principles established under D&D, but then going on to establish their own unique take on it. For me I see OSR to D&D as similar to the way d100 is often used to describe games influenced by RQ / CoC / BRP.

 

[T. Foster]

It makes me very happy both that other old-school games like RQ/BRP and Traveller and Fighting Fantasy have their own fan-driven renaissances now and that more “OSR-identified” stuff is less mechanically beholden to D&D while still retaining at least something of its old-school spirit. That’s much closer to what I had in mind when I started talking about an “old-school revival” 20 years ago than the status quo of a decade ago when it was a bunch of guys on Google+ endlessly rehashing 1,001 flavors of BX D&D.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

I think Rob has touched on this before, but the other issue is that there aren't the same conditions that required a renaissance in the way D&D did. Aside from a handful of stalwarts, old D&D pretty much had gone away pre OSR. And the new editions are different enough that it's arguable whether they're the same game.

Take something like Tunnels & Trolls. You could take a player from 1975, drop them into a 2024 game and it would be instantly recognisable. That's not really true of the difference between D&D editions.

The only real renaissance other lines have needed is new editions/supplements. Advanced Fighting Fantasy has seen a small resurgence again. New content (so I assume it sells well enough to justify that), a place for fan content with The Warlock Returns and games inspired by it like Troika and Warlock!. What it hasn't seen is a retroclone because there would be no point when the fanbase is happy with the new edition.

Also, a fair bit off stuff is happning off people's radars I suspect. We've actuallly seen solid growth in the En Garde! community with *gasp* some players under 40 getting involved and at least 8 current games running. (Small beans from a D&D perspective and not like the glory days of PBM, but good from our small pond perspective). But hardly anybody is going to be aware of that, probably because the lack of a commerical aspect gives people less motivation to really self promote like the OSR.

 

[T. Foster]

It’s also worth a reminder that in its original usage the OSR wasn’t necessarily intended to be commercial and certainly wasn’t intended to be about new “clone” versions of old games.

The idea of new people playing old games, old people returning to those games, people who never stopped playing the old games having more of an audience to share their hobby with, and ideally for people designing new games to do so with more of the spirit and approach of those old games, was the whole point of the OSR. Getting WotC to reprint OD&D and AD&D (and Gamma World and Boot Hill), Marc Miller to reprint Classic Traveller and T2K, Flying Buffalo to reprint T&T, Chaosium to reprint RQ & BRP, Steve Jackson to reprint TFT, FGU to reprint all their games, and so on, was the goal. Using the OGL to clone AD&D was a workaround/fallback/safety net because WotC at the time didn’t seem interested in doing so.

The OGL was seen a convenient safe harbor to minimize the risk of receiving a C&D for releasing a D&D-compatible product the way TSR had done in the 90s (and fans of Necromancer Games, Hackmaster, C&C, etc. - all the “not quite AD&D” games of the early 00s - insisted would definitely happen if someone tried to release “new” 1E content), not necessarily as a money-making venture, and though the idea of maybe making a couple hundred $ from Lulu didn’t suck.

What none of us suspected at the time, even after the release of OSRIC, was that there was pent-up demand for a seemingly-endless variety of D&D-derived clone games, not just one or two but dozens and dozens of them with very minor differences from each other. I didn’t understand it then and I still don’t understand it now, but the demand is clearly still there - people are still releasing new D&D clone-games and pulling in 6 figures on Kickstarter.

The idea behind the OSR was to encourage people to play and to create and share stuff for a type of RPGs that had fallen out of fashion. That it would evolve into everyone producing and selling D&D-clone games and content of mostly dubious quality, and that there would be enough money there to attract sleazy grifters, was an unintended (at at least IMO unfortunate) side-effect. I know that some OSR stuff is really popular and critically acclaimed and at least a few people have made a nice profit selling it, but I still feel like it was a wrong turn, a hijacking of the original intent that lasted for a good decade+ and is only now kind of coming back around to something more like what it always should have been.

 

[robertsconley]

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

Google Cepheus RPG, TAS Drivethru, Mythras Imperative, BRP ORC, Openquest, and Jonstown compendium.

 

[lategamer]

Oh there is an ongoing revival, but those games were already near perfection so it is harder to notice.

Honestly I think Traveller and RQ/BRP are about as popular as they ever have been.

Ok. Time for an unpopular take.

“It’s really an old school revival or are people just taking advantage of good open source material and publishing it as their own?”

The principle that mechanics can’t be patented (only the expression trademarked) has led to a thousand OSR clones. Clones. Not brand new innovations. Just endless repetition of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA as if that was some holy grail.

Now we have had some good innovative content. Some as new takes on old material and some really clever. But that’s separate from the cloned mediocrity of the system.

 

[Sable Wyvern]

Ok. Time for an unpopular take.

“It’s really an old school revival or are people just taking advantage of good open source material and publishing it as their own?”

The principle that mechanics can’t be patented (only the expression trademarked) has led to a thousand OSR clones. Clones. Not brand new innovations. Just endless repetition of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA as if that was some holy grail.

Now we have had some good innovative content. Some as new takes on old material and some really clever. But that’s separate from the cloned mediocrity of the system.

In addition to the Mythic Earth series, I see 11 separate channels in the Mythras discord for alternative settings. Plus there are some others floating around that don't have channels. Plus fan conversions, on top of the more professional stuff. And this is just Mythras, being reported by someone who isn't really even paying attention. I'm not sure how much more you'll find in the wider BRP-sphere.

This is all gameable material, detailed settings, mechanics adjusted to match the genre, setting and style, not just "here is another set of the same rules, but with my four favourite house rules thrown in."

It might not be formal revival but, as Toadmaster is implying, there is a thriving community that doesn't really need "reviving".

 

[lategamer]

It might not be formal revival but, as Toadmaster is implying, there is a thriving community that doesn't really need "reviving".

I think BRP is definitely in that position. With RQ, COC, DG, Mythras - I’ve never seen the BRP “community” stronger.

 

[JoeNuttall]

See https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/04/other-old-school-renaissances.html?m=1

"None of this is to suggest that there couldn't be Traveller or RuneQuest renaissances in the future -- I hope there are! -- but, right now, if they're happening, they're happening very quietly and well off my radar."

Google Cepheus RPG, TAS Drivethru, Mythras Imperative, BRP ORC, Openquest, and Jonstown compendium.

That was a quote from Grognardia from 2010 to illustrate that at that point, when the OSR was in full swing, the most popular OSR blogger didn't think there was an renaissance at that point in Traveller or Runequest.

I think some of the games you reference postdate this quite seriously (Cepheus was 2016, Johnstown Compendium 2019) so I don't know how they but go to support my point.

One at least predates it (Openquest was 2009), but that appears to be simply a simplified version of Mongoose RQ based upon their SRD - not a rejection of (then) current RQ or a ralying call to original RQ.

Note that in contrast to D&D, later versions of RQ and Traveller remained very much feeling like RQ and Traveller, a similar thing was going on with Rolemaster. They weren't bought out by a faceless megacorp, replaced by a poor imposter, and then ridiculed by their new owner.

 

[robertsconley]

Traveller, Runequest OR Glorantha didn’t need renaissances in the same way as classic D&D did at the time Grognardia wrote that. He wasn’t aware of what the hobby were doing in those communities. At the time he wrote that Mongoose had released OGL licensed SRDs for both Runequest (a clone that led to Legends and Mythras) and Mongoose Traveller 1e.

While both weren’t like the OSR until later in the decade it also wasn’t like classic D&D was in the early 2000s. Both had open content under open licenses at the time that was written.

 

[Mankcam]

When people whose rpg origins did not include D&D heard the term 'Old School Renaissance', they used to initially think of their rpgs from an earlier era.
People who started with D&D heard the same term, they naturally thought of their early D&D editions (the vast majority of rpgers).
Perhaps the more correct term for the current OSR could have been something like 'TSR-Revival', 'OTSR', 'ODDR' etc, but that horse has long bolted

 

[SavAce]

Ok. Time for an unpopular take.

“It’s really an old school revival or are people just taking advantage of good open source material and publishing it as their own?”

The principle that mechanics can’t be patented (only the expression trademarked) has led to a thousand OSR clones. Clones. Not brand new innovations. Just endless repetition of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA as if that was some holy grail.

Now we have had some good innovative content. Some as new takes on old material and some really clever. But that’s separate from the cloned mediocrity of the system.

Is this a take or just a question? It looks like a question.

As for the question... it's one of those questions that has "Or" in it, like one side is true or the other, but there is nothing about one side of the statement that would make it exclusive of the other side. Wouldn't we expect any scene or movement or revival to have some good innovative stuff and piles of derivative stuff that is not that innovative or interesting? Oh, it's a punk rock revival. How many of those bands would be innovators, and how many would be kids dressing up like a punk and cosplaying a punk and all the rest? It's a golden age hip hop revival? How many are taking the material from the time and pushing in new interesting directions, while piles of others use the same ol' samples and cosplay being from the streets in some well-worn boring way?

In short, I don't think it's a take, but a question. And also, the answer to the question is "Yes"

 

[lategamer]

Is this a take or just a question? It looks like a question.

It has a question mark but that doesn't mean it isn't a take.

How many are taking the material from the time and pushing in new interesting directions, while piles of others use the same ol' samples and cosplay being from the streets in some well-worn boring way?

Well, that is the question. I guess I see too much where it's not homage, it's just milking a market. I see a lot where it's not a hot take. And I see a heap where...if they'd done a little more....it could have been great.

(for example, I was very disappointed that Over The Wall didn't deliver what it promised. It's a D&D reskin and there wasn't much to learn from it)

In short, I don't think it's a take, but a question. And also, the answer to the question is "Yes"

You are a meanie.

 

[sharps54]

(for example, I was very disappointed that Over The Wall didn't deliver what it promised. It's a D&D reskin and there wasn't much to learn from it)

Do you mean Beyond the Wall? It brings innovative, collaborative character creation and world building to an OSR game.

Edit to add it might not seem like a big deal to you but for people that are only in the old school headspace it is a huge change

 

[lategamer]

Do you mean Beyond the Wall? It brings innovative, collaborative character creation and world building to an OSR game.
Edit to add it might not seem like a big deal to you but for people that are only in the old school headspace it is a huge change

Probably.

I went there for the Earthsea and promises and ran away when I saw it was just D&D. Yes, I had perhaps VERY high expectations but there was nothing usable for me.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Ok. Time for an unpopular take.

“It’s really an old school revival or are people just taking advantage of good open source material and publishing it as their own?”

The principle that mechanics can’t be patented (only the expression trademarked) has led to a thousand OSR clones. Clones. Not brand new innovations. Just endless repetition of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA as if that was some holy grail.

Now we have had some good innovative content. Some as new takes on old material and some really clever. But that’s separate from the cloned mediocrity of the system.

Surely the last sentence negates the second? If there's good innovative content being put out, then no people aren't *just* republishing open source material. And I'd suggest that's a separate thing from your dislike of the D&D system. (In fact seeing what stuff like DCC have done with that system have made me interested in the D&D system again in a way I hadn't been since 1989).-+

 

[sharps54]

Probably.

I went there for the Earthsea and promises and ran away when I saw it was just D&D. Yes, I had perhaps VERY high expectations but there was nothing usable for me.

That’s like this mini review of Runhammer’s Crown & Skull, really just of character creation and combat. The things that seem like revelations to players with experience of a small number of games are just old hat to the reviewer who has broader experience.

Gibbering Mouther Proto-Blog - Crown and Skull: Initial Impressions

Alright, as we dive in here, do remember that I've spent very little time with the book (PDF, really) to this point... I might be out to lunch with these observations and thoughts. It's been known to happen. First things first, let's first set the stage a little...

sites.google.com

 

[DeadBob]

In an earlier time period, a lot of what comes out as near clones may have been as viable as magazine articles.

Beyond the Wall might have been a bit long for that, but over maybe two or three issues? Sure, why not?

As for the complaint about everything being near-clones?

Eh? I mean, I've come to appreciate why different mechanics can give a different feel from game to game and why that's important.

OTOH, I also remember being a kid when B/X was out and wishing that those other games I was buying from TSR had mostly the same core system as D&D, just with genre-variation. Not only would it have made cross use of characters and adventures vastly easier (I don't care what the 1e DMG says about mashing Gamma World, Boot Hill and AD&D together, it's a janky mess at best), it would have also made teaching the other games and cross recruiting players easier.

 

[StubbornMule]

The principle that mechanics can’t be patented (only the expression trademarked) has led to a thousand OSR clones. Clones. Not brand new innovations. Just endless repetition of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA as if that was some holy grail.

If they were truly old school they'd be STR/INT/WIS/DEX/CON/CHA...

 

[robertsconley]

Well, that is the question. I guess I see too much where it's not homage, it's just milking a market. I see a lot where it's not a hot take. And I see a heap where...if they'd done a little more....it could have been great.

If "we" in the OSR (all caps) are doing it wrong, then everything is there for you to use to show us how to do it right.

My reply may seem sarcastic, but it is something that most don't get about the OSR. Unlike most niches in the RPG industry, anybody unhappy with the state of affairs in the OSR has everything they need to realize their creative vision and show the rest of the OSR how to do it "right". And most of the time, this vision can be realized in the time and budget one has for a hobby. Plus, often, there are more than a few willing to help the creator get their stuff out there. Covering things like art, editing, and layout that may not be the creator's strong suit.

In short, the OSR is shaped by those who do. Something that I have been pointing out for 15 years.

Those who do and the Old School Renaissance

This is because of the low barriers to publishing. Most OSR authors don't care about critical opinions of their work; they are going to do what they are going to do, and if anybody tells them differently, their reaction is to tell folks to f*** off.

There are best practices. Things that certain OSR folks can do that make the chance of success more likely whether it is playing, promoting, or publishing. They are not specific to the OSR, but because there are so many involved, the outliers, both good and bad, stand out more.

 

[lategamer]

This is because of the low barriers to publishing. Most OSR authors don't care about critical opinions of their work; they are going to do what they are going to do, and if anybody tells them differently, their reaction is to tell folks to f*** off.

As an author I'm thick skinned about my stuff too.

There are best practices. Things that certain OSR folks can do that make the chance of success more likely whether it is playing, promoting, or publishing. They are not specific to the OSR, but because there are so many involved, the outliers, both good and bad, stand out more.

There seem to be two ways to ensure success in small press publishing.

1. Be beloved
2. Be a c**t.

(I definitely trend to the latter but success...well....depends who's asking)

 

[Endless Flight]

Sure, most of the rules sets in the OSR amounts to house rules. The truly innovative stuff is on the fringes, basically the farther out you go, the less it’s referred to as OSR, such as DCC.

 

[robertsconley]

Sure, most of the rules sets in the OSR amounts to house rules. The truly innovative stuff is on the fringes, basically the farther out you go, the less it’s referred to as OSR, such as DCC.

I disagree; innovation happens all the time, regardless of where the work falls within the OSR. However, because it is so idiosyncratic, different folks wind up having different opinions about the nature of innovation and how useful the differences or changes are to them.

 

[DeadBob]

Sure, most of the rules sets in the OSR amounts to house rules. The truly innovative stuff is on the fringes, basically the farther out you go, the less it’s referred to as OSR, such as DCC.

Is it terrible that I'm less interested in innovative and more interested in flavor change while keeping majority compatibility and ease-of-learning?

For example, I didn't love Top Secret 1e system wise bitd, but I was really pleased when someone pointed me to White Lies a few years back.

 

[sharps54]

Is it terrible that I'm less interested in innovative and more interested in flavor change while keeping majority compatibility and ease-of-learning?

For example, I didn't love Top Secret 1e system wise bitd, but I was really pleased when someone pointed me to White Lies a few years back.

Yes, you are a terrible person and should feel bad

 

[Endless Flight]

Is it terrible that I'm less interested in innovative and more interested in flavor change while keeping majority compatibility and ease-of-learning?

For example, I didn't love Top Secret 1e system wise bitd, but I was really pleased when someone pointed me to White Lies a few years back.

No, that’s fine. Flavor can make a world of difference. I’d love to see a Top Secret/S.I. clone.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Sure, most of the rules sets in the OSR amounts to house rules. The truly innovative stuff is on the fringes, basically the farther out you go, the less it’s referred to as OSR, such as DCC.

The interesting thing about DCC on top of that is a) quite how good the modules are (especially Harley Stroh) and b) how its then lead to more spinoffs of DCC; I prefer Unamerica to Mutant Future and Weird Frontiers (Old Westerns meet Lovecraft) is very good indeed.

 

[sharps54]

No, that’s fine. Flavor can make a world of difference. I’d love to see a Top Secret/S.I. clone.

It isn’t a clone but I do think Covert Ops is a spiritual successor to Top Secret SI

 

[AsenRG]

Is it terrible that I'm less interested in innovative and more interested in flavor change while keeping majority compatibility and ease-of-learning?

Not terrible at all, but you certainly can't claim is that your preferences are driving innovation/making the designers comfortable with trying out innovations, can you?

I mean, you want what works for you, same as all of us. But some preferences favor innovation more than others.

For example, I didn't love Top Secret 1e system wise bitd, but I was really pleased when someone pointed me to White Lies a few years back.

Out of curiosity, how close are the systems between those two?

 

[sharps54]

Not terrible at all, but you certainly can't claim is that your preferences are driving innovation/making the designers comfortable with trying out innovations, can you?

I mean, you want what works for you, same as all of us. But some preferences favor innovation more than others.


Out of curiosity, how close are the systems between those two?

White lies 1E was OSR, I think S&W, based where Top Secret 1E is a unique percentile system. They redid White Lies and 2e is not OGL so I can’t comment on it

 

[Savage Schemer]

They redid White Lies and 2e is not OGL so I can’t comment on it

It's still "OSR," and the d20 lineage is still very much front and center. It's just not a clone anymore. It's got different attributes now, with the rating of each attribute directly affecting your die roll. So, for example a Toughness of +1 rather than a Toughness of 13 that you then translate into a +1. The dice mechanic is d20 + attribute + rank (character level), where rank is only added if the character has the appropriate qualifications (think like proficiency). You roll and try to beat the GM-assigned TN, which will usually be either 10, 15 or 20. It's actually a very well done modern espionage game where I (surprisingly) don't mind that it's a class & level system.