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TristramEvans said:
2) though it's been identified as linked to "Black Lives Matter", a movement that I don't know a lot about (not living in the States), but I understand is controversial for some reason(s),
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Just want to highlight this as a sidepoint. It's worth reminding American posters that a lot of us genuinely aren't going to understand some of the nuances of US domestic stuff. In the same way as I'm pretty sure that most non Brits don't really get what a "lexiter" is and nobody knows anything about Australia. Does it even exist? Nobody knows.

(I leave out Canada because nobody cares).
 
noman said:
No one here is strident, except you, just now.
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I do not feel this is a fair assessment. Check my word count on the subject. Then check yours, and other posters’.

noman said:
T The Butcher
You seem to be under the impression that Dumarest, myself, and others who've argued against fundraising for political groups on the Pub, are acting from some political acrimony. This is not the case, as can be demonstrated by actually reading anything any of us have read on this forum, ever.
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While the issue at hand may be a valid topic of debate, it’s been going on for far too long and on vehement enough terms that I feel well within my rights to suspect that there’s a dash more to it than enforcing forum neutrality.

Further compounding my suspicions are the speed and tone with which you and that other poster responded. Hence “Q.E.D.”

noman said:
Nor have any of us engaged in personal attacks, but you're doing so now.
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I am sorry that you feel “attacked” because that statement was deliberately formulated to be as vague as possible, so that no one had to feel personally attacked. But hey, if the boot fits.

noman said:
I ask you to please stop. I like you and you're a great poster. Please don't let misunderstanding undermine the fun to be had between us on this forum.
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This paragraph is the sole reason I am responding to you. Thanks for the kind words; I appreciate most of your posts as well. And don’t worry; I don’t intend to mince words on the subject any further, as long as no else is trying to paint me as the bad guy here.

Bunch said:
T The Butcher how's life as a doctor in the worlds hottest spot for coronovirus in a completely overwhelmed healthcare system and a completely unsupporting government? Stressful?

Edit:. This isn't intended as an attack. Mostly I wanted people to consider the stresses on people's lives when considering responses.
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To be perfectly honest it’s not been quite as bad as I expected. Restrictions on family life have been stressing me worse than work stuff. Government, well, that’s a no-no here.

I appreciate the sentiment, and thank you for your sincere concern for my well-being. But there’s no need to chalk this one up on stress: I had a pretty good Sunday with the family.

I’m not one for causing a ruckus but what’s been going on here is bullshit. This level of “no politics” policing has every bit as much potential to tear the forum apart as RPGnet’s openly political stance. Not to mention that this thread went far deeper into political territory than the issue that spawned it.

In fact, banning a seller because of their politics is pretty damn close to RPGnet’s banning of debate on Autarch and ACKS.
 
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I just want to know why points 1,2,3 and 5 are in arabic numerals and point four is in roman.
 
The Butcher said:
I do not feel this is a fair assessment. Check my word count on the subject. Then check yours, and other posters’.
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Word count has absolutely nothing to do with intent.

The Butcher said:
While the issue at hand may be a valid topic of debate, it’s been going on for far too long...
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We've been debating this at pretty much the same length of any other subject, including RPG related discussions. And again, word count and the length of a discussion have nothing whatsoever to do with anything.

The Butcher said:
...and on vehement enough terms...
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Where is this vehemency you talk about? I've been nothing but polite, even apologetic!

The Butcher said:
...that I feel well within my rights to suspect that there’s a dash more to it than enforcing forum neutrality.
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And this is what upsets me. I'm not ashamed to admit that this hurt my feelings. This entire post of yours, and the one before it, accuses me of coming from some imagined agenda that I don't possess. You've either not read my earlier posts on this topic, failed to understand them, or simply chose to dismiss them in favor of attributing to me whatever your ideological bugbear is.

So let me lay it out for you, Butcher, since you seem to think I'm coming from partisan position and hate BLM or whatever. I deliberately didn't talk about this because of the no politics rule. But here I've got one of my favorite posters popping off on me like I was selling MAGA hats or something.

I lost ten years of my life to the corruption and incompetence of law enforcement. Ten fucking years. I spent the first five living off the grid. The rest was spent getting my life back together, from being homeless to getting a roof over my head and rejoining society. My life since has been about repairing and building from there. While most here have had an uninterrupted lifeline, I've had to to do a hard reset.

And that's not the worst for me. The worst for me is the most precious thing a cop can have is trust with other officers. It's as rare and valuable as love. I had a crew I worked with that I trusted with my life. They're all gone. Two vanished, the same as me. I don't know where they are or even if they're alive. The rest are dead. My mentor died of a heart attack. The guy I was mentoring died of cancer. The rest shot themselves or died in car accidents. Of my original crew, as far as I know, I'm the only one still alive.

I don't have the ability to articulate how much police incompetence and corruption has taken from me.

That's why I fully support BLM. There's a sickness in law enforcement, and it needs to be treated.

I live in Los Angeles, Butcher. I was on the street with these people last week!

And you have the gall to accuse me of a political agenda! You don't even know me. You haven't even taken the time to try. You just showed up, completely misunderstood where I was coming from, and vomited your ad hominems all over this thread. You didn't even have the courtesy come at me with coherent argument.

What the hell, man!

The Butcher said:
Further compounding my suspicions are the speed and tone with which you and that other poster responded. Hence “Q.E.D.”
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Jesus fucking Christ. I've always been fast on the draw here. I post from a PC, keep one tab open to I can see my alerts, and do my actual real world work in another workspace.

The Butcher said:
I am sorry that you feel “attacked” because that statement was deliberately formulated to be as vague as possible, so that no one had to feel personally attacked. But hey, if the boot fits.
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There is no boot! The only boot here is the one you're trying to force on me! It's like some neurotic, ideological version of Cinderella.

The Butcher said:
This paragraph is the sole reason I am responding to you
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Well gee, Butcher, thanks for taking the time out of your day to double down on your accusations.

And didn't Baulderstone ask we refrain from personal attacks? Good to see that's being enforced. Oh wait, it's me, and I'm voicing an unpopular opinion.

Upthread, I said this, in regard to feeling like walking on eggshells:

noman said:
This is pretty much how I feel here. I'm not concerned with the mods so much as I'm concerned about some other poster I've never even interacted with before who gets upset over something I wrote in good faith.
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Well, here I am. Again.

I'm not walking on eggshells anymore. I'm walking on a frittata of sadness.

I take a break, let things cool down, and return, changing my approach. Less anime and more RPG posts, no direct attacks unless attacked first, that kind of thing. Nothing I do works. It's like trying to make it work out with a verbally abusive boyfriend.

Funny I don't have this problem on Reddit.

It's one thing if some new poster pops off at me for some fabricated offence, but you Butcher. Dude you and I were here from the beginning. I get that I can be off putting sometimes, but I never imagined you'd think I'd act in bad faith here. That hurts me, man.

What it comes down to for me is if I'm not having fun, why am I here? If I'm biting my nails because I'm worried I'm going to have to spend hours dealing with someone who gets offended for reasons that can't even be objectively proven, then why am I here?

I'm here because I really did like this place, for a while. I really had a lot of fun here, for a while.

As far as the issue of IT'S A FUCKING BUNDLE YOU ASSHOLE! posting, linking, and by extension, endorsing obvious political groups in a forum that was supposed to be non-political, my arguments stand as they are. I'm no longer invested, partly because I know what the outcome here will be, and partly because the bombardment of accusations I've received for my attempts to preserve the no politics rule.

You can do what you want. I'm done. I will not be returning.

Peace, and I wish all of you the best.
 
noman said:
Word count has absolutely nothing to do with intent.



We've been debating this at pretty much the same length of any other subject, including RPG related discussions. And again, word count and the length of a discussion have nothing whatsoever to do with anything.



Where is this vehemency you talk about? I've been nothing but polite, even apologetic!



And this is what upsets me. I'm not ashamed to admit that this hurt my feelings. This entire post of yours, and the one before it, accuses me of coming from some imagined agenda that I don't possess. You've either not read my earlier posts on this topic, failed to understand them, or simply chose to dismiss them in favor of attributing to me whatever your ideological bugbear is.

So let me lay it out for you, Butcher, since you seem to think I'm coming from partisan position and hate BLM or whatever. I deliberately didn't talk about this because of the no politics rule. But here I've got one of my favorite posters popping off on me like I was selling MAGA hats or something.

I lost ten years of my life to the corruption and incompetence of law enforcement. Ten fucking years. I spent the first five living off the grid. The rest was spent getting my life back together, from being homeless to getting a roof over my head and rejoining society. My life since has been about repairing and building from there. While most here have had an uninterrupted lifeline, I've had to to do a hard reset.

And that's not the worst for me. The worst for me is the most precious thing a cop can have is trust with other officers. It's as rare and valuable as love. I had a crew I worked with that I trusted with my life. They're all gone. Two vanished, the same as me. I don't know where they are or even if they're alive. The rest are dead. My mentor died of a heart attack. The guy I was mentoring died of cancer. The rest shot themselves or died in car accidents. Of my original crew, as far as I know, I'm the only one still alive.

I don't have the ability to articulate how much police incompetence and corruption has taken from me.

That's why I fully support BLM. There's a sickness in law enforcement, and it needs to be treated.

I live in Los Angeles, Butcher. I was on the street with these people last week!

And you have the gall to accuse me of a political agenda! You don't even know me. You haven't even taken the time to try. You just showed up, completely misunderstood where I was coming from, and vomited your ad hominems all over this thread. You didn't even have the courtesy come at me with coherent argument.

What the hell, man!



Jesus fucking Christ. I've always been fast on the draw here. I post from a PC, keep one tab open to I can see my alerts, and do my actual real world work in another workspace.



There is no boot! The only boot here is the one you're trying to force on me! It's like some neurotic, ideological version of Cinderella.



Well gee, Butcher, thanks for taking the time out of your day to double down on your accusations.

And didn't Baulderstone ask we refrain from personal attacks? Good to see that's being enforced. Oh wait, it's me, and I'm voicing an unpopular opinion.

Upthread, I said this, in regard to feeling like walking on eggshells:



Well, here I am. Again.

I'm not walking on eggshells anymore. I'm walking on a frittata of sadness.

I take a break, let things cool down, and return, changing my approach. Less anime and more RPG posts, no direct attacks unless attacked first, that kind of thing. Nothing I do works. It's like trying to make it work out with a verbally abusive boyfriend.

Funny I don't have this problem on Reddit.

It's one thing if some new poster pops off at me for some fabricated offence, but you Butcher. Dude you and I were here from the beginning. I get that I can be off putting sometimes, but I never imagined you'd think I'd act in bad faith here. That hurts me, man.

What it comes down to for me is if I'm not having fun, why am I here? If I'm biting my nails because I'm worried I'm going to have to spend hours dealing with someone who gets offended for reasons that can't even be objectively proven, then why am I here?

I'm here because I really did like this place, for a while. I really had a lot of fun here, for a while.

As far as the issue of IT'S A FUCKING BUNDLE YOU ASSHOLE! posting, linking, and by extension, endorsing obvious political groups in a forum that was supposed to be non-political, my arguments stand as they are. I'm no longer invested, partly because I know what the outcome here will be, and partly because the bombardment of accusations I've received for my attempts to preserve the no politics rule.

You can do what you want. I'm done. I will not be returning.

Peace, and I wish all of you the best.
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Aww man don't run off - we all like you and you were one of the first here. You and I don't agree politically but I ALWAYS enjoy hearing from you. It would be a loss to me and others if you don't come back. And as for Butcher - hes a nice guy. He may not have said something artfully or maybe he was just having a bad day. Please don't get offended!
 
Ronnie Sanford said:
Tristram thinks so but would be suprised that there are more Americans working in the MIddle East that claim to be Canadian than there are actual Canadians in the world....
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We are a rare subspecies of subthermal demihumans, tis true.
 
TristramEvans said:
We are a rare subspecies of subthermal demihumans, tis true.
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What city are you from Tristram? In the nineqties I practially lived in Toronto and have visited most of the big cities. Still need to go to Novia Scotia though. Heard its beautiful in the Fall.
 
noman said:
This entire post of yours, and the one before it, accuses me of coming from some imagined agenda that I don't possess.

It accuses you of nothing. You stepped up and quickly fired off three responses. You felt

So let me lay it out for you, Butcher, since you seem to think I'm coming from partisan position and hate BLM or whatever. I deliberately didn't talk about this because of the no politics rule. But here I've got one of my favorite posters popping off on me like I was selling MAGA hats or something.

I lost ten years of my life to the corruption and incompetence of law enforcement. Ten fucking years. I spent the first five living off the grid. The rest was spent getting my life back together, from being homeless to getting a roof over my head and rejoining society. My life since has been about repairing and building from there. While most here have had an uninterrupted lifeline, I've had to to do a hard reset.

And that's not the worst for me. The worst for me is the most precious thing a cop can have is trust with other officers. It's as rare and valuable as love. I had a crew I worked with that I trusted with my life. They're all gone. Two vanished, the same as me. I don't know where they are or even if they're alive. The rest are dead. My mentor died of a heart attack. The guy I was mentoring died of cancer. The rest shot themselves or died in car accidents. Of my original crew, as far as I know, I'm the only one still alive.

I don't have the ability to articulate how much police incompetence and corruption has taken from me.

That's why I fully support BLM. There's a sickness in law enforcement, and it needs to be treated.

I live in Los Angeles, Butcher. I was on the street with these people last week!

And you have the gall to accuse me of a political agenda! You don't even know me. You haven't even taken the time to try. You just showed up, completely misunderstood where I was coming from, and vomited your ad hominems all over this thread. You didn't even have the courtesy come at me with coherent argument.

What the hell, man!



Jesus fucking Christ. I've always been fast on the draw here. I post from a PC, keep one tab open to I can see my alerts, and do my actual real world work in another workspace.



There is no boot! The only boot here is the one you're trying to force on me! It's like some neurotic, ideological version of Cinderella.



Well gee, Butcher, thanks for taking the time out of your day to double down on your accusations.

And didn't Baulderstone ask we refrain from personal attacks? Good to see that's being enforced. Oh wait, it's me, and I'm voicing an unpopular opinion.

Upthread, I said this, in regard to feeling like walking on eggshells:



Well, here I am. Again.

I'm not walking on eggshells anymore. I'm walking on a frittata of sadness.

I take a break, let things cool down, and return, changing my approach. Less anime and more RPG posts, no direct attacks unless attacked first, that kind of thing. Nothing I do works. It's like trying to make it work out with a verbally abusive boyfriend.

Funny I don't have this problem on Reddit.

It's one thing if some new poster pops off at me for some fabricated offence, but you Butcher. Dude you and I were here from the beginning. I get that I can be off putting sometimes, but I never imagined you'd think I'd act in bad faith here. That hurts me, man.

What it comes down to for me is if I'm not having fun, why am I here? If I'm biting my nails because I'm worried I'm going to have to spend hours dealing with someone who gets offended for reasons that can't even be objectively proven, then why am I here?

I'm here because I really did like this place, for a while. I really had a lot of fun here, for a while.

As far as the issue of IT'S A FUCKING BUNDLE YOU ASSHOLE! posting, linking, and by extension, endorsing obvious political groups in a forum that was supposed to be non-political, my arguments stand as they are. I'm no longer invested, partly because I know what the outcome here will be, and partly because the bombardment of accusations I've received for my attempts to preserve the no politics rule.

You can do what you want. I'm done. I will not be returning.

Peace, and I wish all of you the best.
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Wow.

What can I say?

I am sorry I misjudged you, and I am sorry that you felt attacked.

My post might have been strongly worded but was not made in a combative spirit. I honestly would rather not know the political positions of anyone involved. I do take a very dim view of the whole “where’s our RPG money going?” angle because I think that way madness lies. But I did not mean to offend anyone, which is why no names were named.

I am also sorry I didn’t make this a private message exchange.

I had no clue of your life story. I am sorry that you went through so much hardship that I don’t know if I would survive in your place, and I suppose I understand now why you might feel so strongly on the subject.

But I had no way of knowing.

All I had to go by is what was posted here before.

Don’t leave. I’d rather I leave, if it makes you stay. I post very little these days.

And maybe Bunch Bunch is right. Maybe my current circumstances are getting to me more than I care to admit. Which does not make for an excuse, but signals I might not be a great fit for the forum right now.
 
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OK, I'm going to rant for a sec...

I'm noticing a trend. I first had a mental note of the idea when reading the "Storyteller and common usage of RPG terms" thread last week. This statement was made, an idea I've seen made often on these forums and garunteed to show up anytime anyone brings up RPG terminology:

Whenever I've heard someone use the term storygame or trad game its generally to bash the other camp
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I get it, I've been there for the flamewars, I spent enough time in the House of "everyone who doesn't play make believe like me is Swine", but my first thought in reading that was - "well, it's going to keep on like that as long as people keep making that assumption".

This statement, while it may come from experiences, does not reflect anything that I've ever seen on The Pub. In none of our various threads where discussions of "RPG theory" or "RPG terminology" came up, have I seen anyone blatantly putting down another playstyle. It's just an ingrained assumption.

Then, we have the situation where Chris Brady basically only mentions that one of the characters in the Dune film has been gender-flipped, and we have someone showing up calling the conversation misogynystic, and then a bunch of posts here talking about the thread where it's seemingly taken for granted "I know what he meant".

And now, we have lost noman noman , one of our oldest Pubbers and a fellow I quite like, over an assumption.

I'm sure everyone can see where I'm going with this.

I know we've all been cursed to live in *Interesting Times*. I know stresses are plentiful across the board. I know The World Out There seems more and more divided and tribal everyday.

But couldn't The Pub be a place where we give the benefit of the doubt? Can't we interact with the assumption of good faith? Can we not just stop acting and interacting based on assumptions? Because it's starting to drive me nuts.

I love the community of posters we have at The Pub. I care about each and every one of our regulars and I greet our new posters with enthusiastic optimism. This is, the complete opposite of the way I interact or view my interactions with people IRL or anywhere else online. And sure, a few of you annoy the fuck out of me from time to time, and yeah there's That One Guy that I really just want to ban, and am simply waiting util his next round of bullshit. But even so, That One Guy aside, I consider everyone here a friend, and I enjoy interacting with you.

So, couldn't we act more like friends? Couldn't we stop with the assumptions and just put a bit of faith into the community here?
 
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Ronnie Sanford said:
What city are you from Tristram? In the nineqties I practially lived in Toronto and have visited most of the big cities. Still need to go to Novia Scotia though. Heard its beautiful in the Fall.
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I spent my early childhood in Nova Scotia and then lived in Ontario for years - Kingston, mainly, but had family in Ottawa and Toronto , so spent a good deal of time in both cities. These days I live on the West Coast, in Vancouver. I was on Bowen Island for a while, now I'm in Kits.
 
The Butcher said:
And maybe Bunch Bunch is right. Maybe my current circumstances are getting to me more than I care to admit. Which does not make for an excuse, but signals I might not be a great fit for the forum right now.
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Oh, don't you run off too!

C'mon, the world is f-ed up right now, at the very least we can extend some patience and understanding when people are a bit more on edge. And yes, I have noticed a distinct change in your demeanour on the Pub in recent times, but that's not a reason to exile yourself, rather lean on the friends you have when you need to lean. That's why we're here.

 
TristramEvans said:
I spent my early childhood in Nova Scotia and then lived in Ontario for years - Kingston, mainly, but had family in Ottawa and Toronto , so spent a good deal of time in both cities. These days I live on the West Coast, in Vancouver. I was on Bowen Island for a while, now I'm in Kits.
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I went to Vancouver a few years back. Spent three days there and two days in Victoria. Beautiful place and wonderful people!
 
TristramEvans said:
Oh, don't you run off too!

C'mon, the world is f-ed up right now, at the very least we can extend some patience and understanding when people are a bit more on edge. And yes, I have noticed a distinct change in your demeanour on the Pub in recent times, but that's not a reason to exile yourself, rather lean on the friends you have when you need to lean. That's why we're here.

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I don’t know, man. Appreciate the sentiment but would rather not stink up the place.

Besides, what’s really ailing me is very, very political.

noman noman if you’re still reading, my offer stands: I’ll voluntarily exile if you remain.

Fuck, I was actually happy noman was back.
 
Ronnie Sanford said:
I went to Vancouver a few years back. Spent three days there and two days in Victoria. Beautiful place and wonderful people!
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I still haven't been to Victoria. They have a miniatures museum there I'd love to check out.

Vancouver, though I've been here close to a decade, still doesn't feel like home. I've just never been able to integrate into West Coast culture - I have an ingrained longing for brownstones and...distinct seasons...

But it is a beautiful city. I took a photographic log of my walk home from wwork a while back...

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FWIW (i.e. nothing), I agree with and support the decision which has been made. Better to trust common sense whenever possible, and if you can't trust it anymore, the battle is lost already anyway.
 
TristramEvans said:
Oh, don't you run off too!

C'mon, the world is f-ed up right now, at the very least we can extend some patience and understanding when people are a bit more on edge. And yes, I have noticed a distinct change in your demeanour on the Pub in recent times, but that's not a reason to exile yourself, rather lean on the friends you have when you need to lean. That's why we're here.

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I'd appreciate if no one ran off as well. My point in the post I deleted was I thought I knew the stresses T The Butcher might be under and thought "hey why don't we give each other some slack" however I was about off on that and I know nothing about what stress others are under. So like TristramEvans TristramEvans is saying can we all please just cut each other some slack. Similar to the politics comments if someone leaves you a rat trap just don't take the bait.
 
noman noman . T The Butcher . You're both great posters and it would be a shame to lose either of you - and just like T The Butcher , I was happy to see noman noman back. There's a lot of stress in the air and tempers are easily frayed, but we all have the same basic goal here; swo, hating geese, and maybe a bit of RPG discussion. Let's try not to break friendships over misunderstandings.

But even if you do decide not to stay, if you end up in Aberdeen, Scotland, hit me up for a drink.
 
I must have typed out and deleted five or six posts to respond to this thread.

I'll just say this. If anybody here needs to talk about anything, my door is open. I might not be able to tell you what you want to hear, I might not be able to tell you everything that's on my mind that you might want to know, but I will lend you my ears. If you need somebody to talk to, send me a PM. I was again reminded recently that just talking to somebody, anybody, when you are stressed out is better than keeping it inside. And sometimes you don't necessarily want to talk to your family about it, for whatever reason. I get it. The door is open if you need it.
 
The Butcher said:
I don’t know, man. Appreciate the sentiment but would rather not stink up the place.

Besides, what’s really ailing me is very, very political.

noman noman if you’re still reading, my offer stands: I’ll voluntarily exile if you remain.

Fuck, I was actually happy noman was back.
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I'd suggest that both of you sleep on it for a day or two before coming to any decision.
 
Endless Flight said:
I must have typed out and deleted five or six posts to respond to this thread.

I'll just say this. If anybody here needs to talk about anything, my door is open. I might not be able to tell you what you want to hear, I might not be able to tell you everything that's on my mind that you might want to know, but I will lend you my ears. If you need somebody to talk to, send me a PM. I found out recently that just talking to somebody, anybody, when you are stressed out is better than keeping it inside. Any sometimes you don't necessarily want to talk to your family about it, for whatever reason. I get it. The door is open if you need it.
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You are SUCH a nice guy! I take back half the things I have said about you!
 
Endless Flight said:
The irony is that this conversation about the link possibly being political is worse than the link itself. Members here have already got enjoyment out of that bundle but in this thread we have people getting agitated. I agree with what Baulderstone Baulderstone said earlier. Still pondering this though.
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It is pretty clear to me, advertising bundles is done here if the recipient of the bundle is allowed to be made the focus of discussion instead of the RPG content.

Almost every bundle is a fund raiser for something, so every bundle is potentially offensive to somebody and violates the no politics rule. The bundle advertising has been successful to this point because individual posters have been allowed to decide for themselves if they are ok with their money going to the stated cause without a debate of the organization pro or con on the forum.

While I can appreciate the point of noman and others, in reality singling out this particular bundle it is politicizing all of the bundles. I agree the initial thread title was an issue and in the future all bundles should be under a blanket thread to avoid giving the impression some are specifically being supported by the forum.

While many of the past bundles have supported fairly safe charities such as animal shelters, suicide prevention and the RPG creators relief fund they have also supported groups that are potentially more political in nature such as Human Rights Watch, the ACLU and various LGTB organizations.


The bundle in question is raising money for the Black Lives Matter Foundation and the National Bail Fund Network both of which are classified as 501(c)3 charitable organizations, not the Black Lives Matter Movement which by definition is a movement not a single organization. BLMF of course as the name suggests has direct ties to the movement, but the NBFN supports a variety of causes well beyond the BLM protesters.


It appears we are at a baby with the bath water moment here.
 
Toadmaster said:
I agree the initial thread title was an issue and in the future all bundles should be under a blanket thread to avoid giving the impression some are specifically being supported by the forum.
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I think this is a fair solution.
 
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