Star Trek: Discovery

[Voros]

Looking forward to the hairless cat antidote machine.

 

[Baeraad]

Oh dear. Yes, I think I'll be giving that one a miss, actually. I like Tarantino and all, but I don't want him in my Trek.

 

[noman]

So, here's some Star Trek news.

J.J. Abrams and Quentin Tarantino are set to produce a R-rated Star Trek film.

To say that I'm not thrilled by this news would be an understatement.

It's going to be AWESOME!!!*

* It's going to suck diseased donkey balls.

 

[noman]

So, yeah. Watched up to E13.

Spoiler: Lorca

Upthread I predicted that Lorca was being set up as a villain.

Oooh. But not just any kinda of villain. Noooo. He's an racist, war-mongering, sociopathic secret Nazi captain villain!

Saw that coming too.

I hate being right.

 

[Dumarest]

So, here's some Star Trek news.

J.J. Abrams and Quentin Tarantino are set to produce a R-rated Star Trek film.

To say that I'm not thrilled by this news would be an understatement.

You're mistaken; they stopped making Star Trek films in 1991. Did you perhaps mean they are using the brand name to try to get people to watch what they've concocted?

 

[Dumarest]

By the by, I cant believe they went with a name for this show that they knew was going to be acronym-ized as "STD"

Maybe they thought the show would go viral.

 

[noman]

You're mistaken; they stopped making Star Trek films in 1991. Did you perhaps mean they are using the brand name to try to get people to watch what they've concocted?

^ This guy gets it.

Maybe they thought the show would go viral.

Ha!

 

[Llew ap Hywel]

I’m trying to like this show but I just can’t take the mushroom drive seriously...or the Hollyoaks relationship fest that seems to go on amongst...well everyone.

 

[Charlie D]

It burns us my precious.

 

[Baeraad]

So, yeah. Watched up to E13.

Spoiler: Lorca

Upthread I predicted that Lorca was being set up as a villain.

Oooh. But not just any kinda of villain. Noooo. He's an racist, war-mongering, sociopathic secret Nazi captain villain!

Saw that coming too.

I hate being right.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I loved that episode.

Spoiler: Lorca

Though I admit that him wanting to tighten immigration policies and thus make the Empire conspicuous pause glorious again was just a liiiiiittle too much on the nose for me. :p

 

[noman]

You say that like it's a bad thing. I loved that episode.

And that's totes cool. Different folks like different things in different ways, as it should be.

Spoiler: Lorca

Though I admit that him wanting to tighten immigration policies and thus make the Empire conspicuous pause glorious again was just a liiiiiittle too much on the nose for me. :p

I've tried to be fair in my criticisms of this show. I went in knowing there'd be a certain flavor of ideological themes, and checked my own political biases as I went in. At this point, however, it's just too much. Upthread I said that the ideological crap was mostly on the back end, and if you weren't aware of the various political narratives being thrown back and forth for the last few years, you hardly notice it at all. That changed once the mirror universe arc began, and now it's right in your face. I've pretty much had enough.

And no, I'm not going to go into any detail here, as I won't open the political can of worms here that you have to open in order to discuss these problems with the show, but I will state I'm not coming from any political or ideological position here save for not wanting an ideological agenda, of any kind, in my casual entertainment.

Imagine if I ran a game for you guys, and modeled my main villain faction after [insert political faction here], did so obviously, and beat you over the head with it it with that symbolism throughout the campaign. I'd lose players.

 

[The Butcher]

FWIW, Star Trek has always been open (not to say heavy-handed) about its political biases.

That geing said, the current mood (not just in the Anglosphere) does tend to lend political commentary, even when packaged as fiction (a tradition at least as old as The Iliad), a sour note.

 

[Baeraad]

FWIW, Star Trek has always been open (not to say heavy-handed) about its political biases.

That geing said, the current mood (not just in the Anglosphere) does tend to lend political commentary, even when packaged as fiction (a tradition at least as old as The Iliad), a sour note.

This is how I see it too. So many people have spent so much time demanding that everything be politicised that a lot of non-fanatics have grown allergic to even trace amounts of politics in their fiction. I feel that way too, God knows.

But the way I see it is, you can't demand that fiction be pristinely free of politics just like you can't demand that fiction be pristinely free of anything you think is Problematic. Fiction is always going to be a blend of everything the writer has on their mind, including politics. So if I aspire to be sane in an insane world, I need to ignore my bruises and ask, "is the point they're making a reasonable one in itself, if we ignore the real-world subtext?"

For STD, I've consistently found the answer to be yes - aside, yes, from that one self-indulgent dig at a politician. :p Your mileage may of course vary.

(you can also look at it like this: what's going to annoy any would-be demagogues more than refusing to even notice their cleverly crafted allusions and just unironically loving something as a work of fiction? )

 

[noman]

First, I'm tying to be as light with the politics as I can here.

Second, totes respect to Butcher and Baeraad; the arguments that follow are presented in good faith.

FWIW, Star Trek has always been open (not to say heavy-handed) about its political biases.

So what?

I'm not talking about the franchise, I'm talking about STD. Dismissing the ideological bias in STD by pointing out that ST has always had political biases glosses over the fact that that there are significant differences in how said ideology is being presented in STD, compared to the rest of the franchise.

ST wanted to convey an ideological message (SPACE COMMUNISM GOOD!), and that was fine. I didn't mind that at all, nor did most fans save for the most politically sensitive among us. I liked the message of hope and humanism, watching Picard get on his sandbox to preach the gospel of the Federation evey other episode. It was fun, and it instilled a sense of hope for our future. I didn't even mind the writers portraying capitalists as repugnant, misogynistic, little trolls (Ferengi).

The important distinction here is that ST focused its ideological message inward. It was always about them, about humanity, about the Federation. It was a message that said, "We overcame our worst natures and became something better." It also made it clear that they were not perfect; that there was still a lot of work ahead. The focus was on the self, and self-growth, both as an individual as well as a culture. It was sappy, New Agey, and wonderful. I loved it, even when I didn't.

By contrast, STD focuses its ideological message outward. It only references the humanistic message within the context of the Other: The Klingons specifically, and later the Terran Empire. Gone is the message of the individual and culture struggling against itself, aware of its limitations even after overcoming so many. Instead, the humanism of STD is framed as "We're the enlightened, tolerant, and morally just tribe, but those assholes are not." Those assholes being Klingons, and later The Terran Federation. They're framed as "Everything the Federation is not.": Savage, violent, xenophobic, religious fanatics, using torture for fun, etc.

You know, Republicans.

In STD, the Federation's cultural superiority is always framed in the context of those lesser cultures are are against it. And yes, the other franchises did this to a certain extent as well. But the Klingons in TNG and DS9 had some redeeming qualities, such as a culture of honor and heroism. The Romulans were looking for a way out of their own Empire (North Korea), and even the Ferengi got fleshed out and given some depth in DS9:



Each race was shown to have something to them beyond just opposing the Federation.

But STD beats you over the head with this constantly. Us Good, Them Bad. And as far as I can tell, there's not a single redeeming thing about the STD Klingons. And the Terran Federation? The political symbolism here is pretty clear.

And let's not forget that every ST franchise, inclduing DS9, was about seeking out new life and new civilizations. STD? STD is about war, and that war is political symbolism.

Then there's Lorca:

Spoiler: Lorca rant

He's the only human, Caucasian, heterosexual male in The Entire Galaxy, apparently. He's like the inverse Mon Mothma. Turns out he's Worse Than Hitler. So, yeah. No politicla propaganda there at all.

Here's the bottom line for me, Butcher. Even excusing the Space Communism nonsense and just enjoying the show for the sake of the show, the other ST franchises always left me feeling hopeful for our species after I watched them. STD just makes me feel empty.

But hey. At least the Cyborg Girl got some actual dialog in E13. That's got to count for something.

This is how I see it too. So many people have spent so much time demanding that everything be politicised that a lot of non-fanatics have grown allergic to even trace amounts of politics in their fiction. I feel that way too, God knows.

I haven't seen any indication anywhere that anyone wants more ideological horseshit in their media. Certainly not Trekkies. No, I think the ideological elements we're discussing is coming directly from the writers/producers themselves (as they're on record as stating), and not the fan base. I suspect that most people feel the same way you and I do; enough is enough with the politics.

But the way I see it is, you can't demand that fiction be pristinely free of politics just like you can't demand that fiction be pristinely free of anything you think is Problematic.

Agreed. But I can choose not to support such content with my money and attention.

Fiction is always going to be a blend of everything the writer has on their mind, including politics. So if I aspire to be sane in an insane world, I need to ignore my bruises and ask, "is the point they're making a reasonable one in itself, if we ignore the real-world subtext?"

Also agree. I have a similar process to these things. But bear in mind that I did exactly that throughout the series so far, but found it more difficult from E9 onward. By E13, I came to the conclusions I have. It's been like a frog in a boiling pot of derp.

Baeraad, my objection isn't the presence of ideology in fiction, STD or otherwise. Where I draw the line is when said ideology gets in the way of the story. For the most part that doesn't really happen in the earlier ST franchises. By E13 of STD, is has, and the ideology has become the story. This is my complaint.

You know, crap writing.

For STD, I've consistently found the answer to be yes - aside, yes, from that one self-indulgent dig at a politician. :p Your mileage may of course vary.

As you say, mileage may vary. I certainly don't think less of you for enjoying a show I've come to dislike, nor can I fault your assessment of the mildness of STD's ideological messaging. Perspectives are always different, in some way.

(you can also look at it like this: what's going to annoy any would-be demagogues more than refusing to even notice their cleverly crafted allusions and just unironically loving something as a work of fiction? )

Ooh! Ooh! I know the answer to this one: Stop watching their drek. Which is exactly what I'm a gonna do.

 

[Baeraad]

But STD beats you over the head with this constantly. Us Good, Them Bad. And as far as I can tell, there's not a single redeeming thing about the STD Klingons. And the Terran Federation? The political symbolism here is pretty clear.

I see what you mean, and I do think that the Klingons are kind of flat. I do think that ones like Voq and T'rell show admirable qualities, though - loyalty and self-sacrifice, at the very least. I think the problem is mostly that the this series plays everything very seriously, and Klingons are really kind of offputting when they're not played for laughs.

I haven't seen any indication anywhere that anyone wants more ideological horseshit in their media. Certainly not Trekkies. No, I think the ideological elements we're discussing is coming directly from the writers/producers themselves (as they're on record as stating), and not the fan base. I suspect that most people feel the same way you and I do; enough is enough with the politics.

Then you have been more fortunate than I in your indications. I will spare you from the link to a recent review that absolutely drooled over how great The Fifth Season was for revealing how horribly racist we all and how much we should be ashamed of ourselves, and how the reviewer prayed to God that it would inspire a tonal shift in all of science fiction literature away from all that self-serving "fun" crap and towards further examinations of our awfulness. You're just going to have to take my word for that review being a thing that happened.

And even when it comes to this series in particular, I've seen a lot of rage and complaints about how Problematic this, that and the other thing is. Now, I want to point out that I disagree with those complaints just as I disagree with yours - my point is just that they have been made, and with some force. I would love to believe that you're right and most people are as sick of the constant hatefest as I am, but... I just don't see it, alas.

Agreed. But I can choose not to support such content with my money and attention.

You do have that right, to be sure.

Baeraad, my objection isn't the presence of ideology in fiction, STD or otherwise. Where I draw the line is when said ideology gets in the way of the story. For the most part that doesn't really happen in the earlier ST franchises. By E13 of STD, is has, and the ideology has become the story. This is my complaint.

You know, crap writing.

Eh, I still don't see it. The characters all behave like characters, not like caricatures meant to make a point - even the Mirror characters act human and have understandable reasons for what they do. Even in the latest episode, the only political subtext is a throwaway line that may well be absolute bullshit rhetoric by a villain who just wants to be Emperor instead of the Emperor - hardly something I'd consider to be "ideology getting in the way of the story." Replace the rebels' supposed politics with absolutely anything, and not a single thing in the episode changes.

But, as you say - agree to disagree and all.

Ooh! Ooh! I know the answer to this one: Stop watching their drek. Which is exactly what I'm a gonna do.

Heh! Well, feel free, but they can live with that. Unnecessarily alienating people is considered an acceptable win condition for demagogues. I promise that I'll annoy them much more by enjoying myself while completely failing to grasp what they consider the whole point. ;)

 

[noman]

Baeraad, I think we agree more than we disagree, and even if that's not true, I appreciate your reasonable approach to this discussion.

I'm not gonna go into this too much, as I agree with most of what you posted above. I'm just going to comment on this:

Then you have been more fortunate than I in your indications. I will spare you from the link to a recent review that absolutely drooled over how great The Fifth Season was for revealing how horribly racist we all and how much we should be ashamed of ourselves, and how the reviewer prayed to God that it would inspire a tonal shift in all of science fiction literature away from all that self-serving "fun" crap and towards further examinations of our awfulness. You're just going to have to take my word for that review being a thing that happened.

And even when it comes to this series in particular, I've seen a lot of rage and complaints about how Problematic this, that and the other thing is. Now, I want to point out that I disagree with those complaints just as I disagree with yours - my point is just that they have been made, and with some force. I would love to believe that you're right and most people are as sick of the constant hatefest as I am, but... I just don't see it, alas.

If people are still able to civilly disagree about something, as we're doing now, then there's still hope for our nation.

That being said, I'm mostly convinced of two things:

1. Most media outlets that are spewing opinion-based vitriol at the various objects of their discontent, be they Right or Left ideologically, are mostly doing so to a small collective of core, rabid adherents, and themselves. It is, if you'll excuse a crude expression, an ideological circlejerk.

2. Most Americans, regardless of racial, religious, or political identity, are just trying to get by. They want to live their lives, pay their bills, and put food on the table. The people I see who seem to dominate our national discourse with constant negativity strike me as a vocal minority.

At least, this is how I prefer to see things. I've come to treat politics, of any kind, like a HAZMAT situation: best observed from a very long distance away. I find I'm more mellow as a result.

 

[Dumarest]

The people I see who seem to dominate our national discourse with constant negativity strike me as a vocal minority.

A well-paid vocal minority. That is key. There's money to made in that stuff.

 

[noman]

A well-paid vocal minority. That is key. There's money to made in that stuff.

Absolutely correct.

 

[The Butcher]

Here's the bottom line for me, Butcher. Even excusing the Space Communism nonsense and just enjoying the show for the sake of the show, the other ST franchises always left me feeling hopeful for our species after I watched them. STD just makes me feel empty.

I acknowledge and appreciate your respect and good faith and I think I get what ticked you off. Conversely, I also disagree with a few points you've made but I am unable to respond without getting explicitly political.

For the time being I'll say that Discovery's chief failings, to me, are less political than dramatic. But I still derive some enjoyment from it.

 

[Dumarest]

... chief failings, to me, are less political than dramatic...

I have found that I don't need to agree with an entertainment's perspective as long as it is well done. For instance, I enjoy C.S. Lewis and Narnia and it has no effect whatsoever on my atheism; I don't shake my fist in anger over Aslan's resurrection.

 

[noman]

I acknowledge and appreciate your respect and good faith and I think I get what ticked you off.

I appreciate that, but don't misunderstand: I'm not ticked off. Please don't assume that my criticisms are based on my own political biases being offended by the show. I have no political biases beyond Make Evil Great Again, an Undead Army, and the despairing screams of those who'd oppose me in my quest for world domination. You know, noman stuff.

Conversely, I also disagree with a few points you've made but I am unable to respond without getting explicitly political.

Yeah, let's not go there. And it's cool that you disagree.

For the time being I'll say that Discovery's chief failings, to me, are less political than dramatic. But I still derive some enjoyment from it.

I think I understand what you mean, and it's cool you still enjoy the show. I envy you for that.

This is probably all I'm going to write about STD. I've learned what I needed to learn and the show holds no more interest for me. And again, what I wrote upthread still stands: it's still a decent show if you don't care about the ideology. There's no reason why anyone can't enjoy it.

 

[noman]

I have found that I don't need to agree with an entertainment's perspective as long as it is well done. For instance, I enjoy C.S. Lewis and Narnia and it has no effect whatsoever on my atheism; I don't shake my fist in anger over Aslan's resurrection.

The same, despite what one might assume based on what I've written. I'm surprised how much I enjoy Both Lewis' fiction and non-fiction.

But then, his ideology didn't get in the way of this storytelling the way the writers' does in STD, IMO.

 

[Voros]

Strange, I find Lewis’ later Narnia books very heavy handed, The Last Battle in particular. And his rants against ‘humanism’ in That Hideous Strength made me give up reading the book, if I want to be preached to I’ll go to church. I like a number of overtly Christian writers and filmmakers but Lewis has the dogmatism and lack of charity of a convert.

 

[Baeraad]

Yeah, I can't stand Lewis, and I don't think it's because of the Christian allegory in itself. Literature is full of those. He's just so damn condescending about it - all "people who disagree with me are willfully blind."

 

[Shipyard Locked]

I find this thread disconcertingly political / ideological for this site.

 

[noman]

"people who disagree with me are willfully blind."

Yeah, but these words have been repeated by every True Believer of [insert Religion / Ideology here] since the beginning of human civilization. We'll be repeating it until the day we finally extinguish ourselves.

I find this thread disconcertingly political / ideological for this site.

I was in the middle of a longer reply (to this thread) when I saw your post. If that's how you feel, then I have to take that as an indicator that the line is being pushed.

I cut my post short, and I will drop the subject of this thread.

But only for you, Ship.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

But only for you, Ship.

I don't want to be some tyrannical buzzkill, but I do feel there are slippery slope risks here.

 

[noman]

I don't want to be some tyrannical buzzkill, but I do feel there are slippery slope risks here.

You're not a buzzkill, tyrannical or otherwise.

I don't think this discussion is going too far into the political, though I do think we strayed from the STD discussions, nor do I consider a slippery slope argument to be particularly valid, in any context.

However, if someone is feeling uncomfortable with the subject matter of this discussion, I'm obligated to stop participating.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

However, if someone is feeling uncomfortable with the subject matter of this discussion, I'm obligated to stop participating.

Not really, that grants me special shut-down privileges just because I'm upset, which is a bad way to handle public discussions.

Mods, what do you guys think?

 

[noman]

Not really, that grants me special shut-down privileges just because I'm upset

It does not. Because I'm the one that's choosing to withdraw from the topic, not becuse you are 'upset', but out of courtesy to both you and the Pub.

The political line with STD is fuzzy here. I'm as sensitive to not crossing that line as you are, and I think everyone here has done a good job at that. But if some people are feeling uncomfortable, then I have to take that as a sign that maybe that line is being pressed. Thus, I choose to be a gentleman about this and simply withdraw.

 

[Voros]

I don't think this particular line of discussion of STD is going to be fruitful. Some find it too heavy handed, others (like myself) don't find it anymore so than the other Treks. I think the current political polarization in the States are making many, on both sides of the political spectrum, sensitive to any political content in popular culture.

My wife has been loving STD. I do think Martin-Green is a great lead and the cast is fun. I'm hoping they haven't completely dropped Lorca from the series as he brought some serious charisma, swagger and sex appeal for the ladies (and some gents) to the proceedings.

 

[Baeraad]

I'm hoping they haven't completely dropped Lorca from the series as he brought some serious charisma, swagger and sex appeal for the ladies (and some gents) to the proceedings.

Considering that he's got a Mirror equivalent who remains unaccounted for and we've seen that the spirits of the dead can survive in the mycelium network for some time, I think the chances that we've seen the last of him are slim. Besides, Lorca is the kind of bastard who's prone to bouncing back from just about everything.

 

[Dumarest]

I don't want to be some tyrannical buzzkill...

But tyrannical is my favorite type of buzzkill! Shipyard Locked may be a swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood, but he's not soft.

 

[noman]

Considering that he's got a Mirror equivalent who remains unaccounted for and we've seen that the spirits of the dead can survive in the mycelium network for some time, I think the chances that we've seen the last of him are slim. Besides, Lorca is the kind of bastard who's prone to bouncing back from just about everything.

I've been thinking about this.

I think one of the best things they could do is bring Lorca back, either the original copy or the other version we haven't met yet. As far as the original Lorca, I'm giving him 50/50 odds of coming back. If so that'd be awesome. I wouldn't even mind him returning as the villain he ended as, but I'd prefer a sort of twist where he's evil-but-not-evil-but-kinda-evil-but-it's-for the great good kinda thing.

I still think the rest of the cast is boring, though.

Though Tilly is growing on me, and the Totally Not Mary Sue is endearing herself to me due to the actress' superb acting (not snark) and amazing WTF facial expressions (snark).

Also the Cyborg Chick. Have I mentioned her before?

 

[noman]

Also, since I've been such a meany to the show, I'll state I really liked the fact that STD dedicated so many episodes to the Mirror Universe. No other franchise did that, if I recall (I don't think DS9 dedicated as many episodes to its mirror arc, and it was lame anyway).

Somewhat off topic, I contemplate the concept of a mirror universe, and I can only surmise that Bunch is running a Geese Rescue Center, Shipyard actually is a Tyrannical buzzkill, STD is actually a really good show that lives up to its hype, and I'm writing glowing reviews about it.

 

[Baeraad]

Also, since I've been such a meany to the show, I'll state I really liked the fact that STD dedicated so many episodes to the Mirror Universe. No other franchise did that, if I recall (I don't think DS9 dedicated as many episodes to its mirror arc, and it was lame anyway).

Yes, I really liked the portrayal of the Mirror Universe. The ones I've seen in other shows just kind of had it be full of scenery-chewing evil, which is fun and all, but it also felt like it should have collapsed under its own silliness a long time ago. This one felt downright disturbingly real. It's kind of the opposite of the problem with the Klingons I mentioned. Klingons don't work as well when you take them seriously , but the Mirror Universe works much better when you do.

 

[noman]

Yes, I really liked the portrayal of the Mirror Universe. The ones I've seen in other shows just kind of had it be full of scenery-chewing evil, which is fun and all, but it also felt like it should have collapsed under its own silliness a long time ago. This one felt downright disturbingly real. It's kind of the opposite of the problem with the Klingons I mentioned. Klingons don't work as well when you take them seriously , but the Mirror Universe works much better when you do.

Dammit, Baeraad! We can't seem to agree on anything! (/sarc)

I'm the exact reverse of you. I think the Klingons are at their best when they're treated seriously. It's one of the reasons I preferred DS9 and the later seasons of TNG, as they added some much-appreciated depth to the civilization.

The Terran Empire, however, I find to be absurd. It makes a whole lot of assumptions that I'm just not willing to accept, most notably, that the whole of humanity would collectively decide, all at the same time and in the same way, to become rabid, socopathic nutjobs. I mean, hell. We're a species that can't even agree about how to do good things, and I'm expected to believe that in this reality, all of humanity said, "You know what, I want to create a society where being a dick to one another is rewarded, where he who stabs the other in the back first wins, where we treat our political leaders like emperors, and where we routinely imprison and torture people for...no...good...reason..."

Shit.

We're living in the mirror universe, aren't we?

Okay. I stand corrected.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go get really, really drunk.

 

[Baeraad]

See, what did I say? Disturbingly real. :p

Seriously, fascist dictatorships filled with backstabbing and bootlicking are a thing that have existed. There's nothing very unrealistic about that. And the show goes out of its way to point out that the Terrans aren't rabid, sociopathic nutjobs, they're just the products of their society - if you live in a world where everyone is screwing each other over to get ahead, it won't take you long to start thinking, "well, if someone is going to get screwed over anyway, why shouldn't I be the one to get ahead?"

As for all of humanity having decided to be that way? Well, that's how it works in Star Trek, isn't it? Every species always has a single government and a single culture. Sure, it's not realistic, but it's one of the premises you just have to buy into before you start watching. If it helps, you can always imagine that there are hidden cells of semi-nice people throughout the Empire trying to passive-aggressively counteract the dominant ideology. ;)

ETA: As for DS9 Klingons, er... Well, I agree that they added depth to the civilisation, but that depth mostly contained a lot of scenery-chewing drama queens bellowing about honour. :p That's not to say that I didn't like it - like I said, that's exactly how the Klingons are the most fun - but played straight? Er, no. It still depicted a civilisation based on beating people up as delightfully quirky. The reason why the Klingons in STD are so dreary is that their world is portrayed as being as bleak as you'd reasonably expect when everyone has to be a soldier, all the time.

Though I admit that even given that they're trying to be less campy here than in previous installments, I do think that they've overdone it a little. Would it kill them to have the Klingons crack a smile on occasion? People who are at war still make jokes, if only because it's a way of keeping themselves sane.

 

[Dumarest]

So, I assume this show takes place in the nü-Trek Apple Store Enterprise timeline, is that right?

 

[Baeraad]

So, I assume this show takes place in the nü-Trek Apple Store Enterprise timeline, is that right?

No, actually, as far as I understand. It's still the same timeline as the various TV shows.