Star Wars: Solo is doing really badly (and further analysis of Last Jedi)

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The Butcher said:
Ship, what's your angle here?
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Nothing against Solo itself. It might actually be as good as people say. I may in fact watch it someday.

It's pretty transparent and simple really - Last Jedi was a tragic mistake, but the real dealbreaker was the smug, scornful, obtuse attitudes of the filmmakers and media toward any fans who disapproved of it.

Sure, nothing will stop Disney Star Wars now, but I'll gladly relish and disseminate any pratfalls the current showrunners experience while denying them my pitiful handfuls of dollar bills for the foreseeable future.

Irrational? Petty?
Sure, whatever, dismiss me any way you want. That said, if studios and their media buddies don't want millions of fans turning on them and forming headwinds against their franchises, it would behoove them to be more diplomatic with their spin.

And, you know, build on things rather than deconstruct them.
 
I think the fandom reaction to Last Jedi will mystify future film-goers.

The few twists to the narrative so many obsess on are blown out of all proportion in my opinion.

One can certainly dislike the film but the intensity and nit picking is all out of whack.

But I think like many pop culture obsessions, including the current superhero boom, yes even Harry Potter, one day people will watch SW and think ‘this was so big why’?
 
I don’t see why Rian Johnson has to apologize for The Last Jedi. It’s a divisive film that they took some chances with that many fans disagree with but many fans like, myself included. A tragedy would have been George Lucas never filming A New Hope because Alan Ladd wouldn’t fund the project. Disney can do whatever they want with the property they see fit. If enough fans like it, they’ll keep making more movies. I happen to think Solo was marketed poorly and came out at the wrong time of the year. If it was released in December it would have done better.
 
Voros said:
I think the fandom reaction to Last Jedi will mystify future film-goers.

The few twists to the narrative so many obsess on are blown out of all proportion in my opinion.

One can certainly dislike the film but the intensity and nit picking is all out of whack.

But I think like many pop culture obsessions, including the current superhero boom, yes even Harry Potter, one day people will watch SW and think ‘this was so big why’?
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I tend to think the opposite. I think the Marvel and Potter movies will age poorly and Star Wars will age well.
 
Endless Flight said:
I tend to think the opposite. I think the Marvel and Potter movies will age poorly and Star Wars will age well.
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I would agree but long term quality has little to do with it, almost all pop culture fades over time regardless. It is only aficionados who pay attention to the past and remember the great films of the 30s and 40s, or these days even the 1970s.

A friend of mine told a story of teaching a first year film class in university and when he showed them The Terminator they found it ‘cheesy’ because of the clothes and hair and even, stunningly, ‘slow.’ That, sadly, speaks volumes how the average person views films from the past: a familiar mix of arrogance and ignorance.

The assumption by many is that ‘our’ popular culture will somehow last forever and not fade into the background like Martin and Lewis or Flynn’s adventure films.
 
Yeah I would agree with that. That discussion happens with popular music as well. Who will be remembered in a couple hundred years? The Beatles? Dylan? The Stones? Maybe. Never know for sure. “Difficult to see, the future is.”
 
Voros said:
I would agree but long term quality has little to do with it, almost all pop culture fades over time regardless. It is only aficionados who pay attention to the past and remember the great films of the 30s and 40s, or these days even the 1970s.

A friend of mine told a story of teaching a first year film class in university and when he showed them The Terminator they found it ‘cheesy’ because of the clothes and hair and even, stunningly, ‘slow.’ That, sadly, speaks volumes how the average person views films from the past: a familiar mix of arrogance and ignorance.

The assumption by many is that ‘our’ popular culture will somehow last forever and not fade into the background like Martin and Lewis or Flynn’s adventure films.
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I was in a book club with a bunch of much more classic literature heavy gals than myself. What kept hitting me over the head is that the success of the ideas in the novel had caused so many of their radical or significant ideas to become mainstream that the novels themselves now seemed to elicit a 'Duh' reaction from me while reading them. If you fail to put them in context of when they happenwd to be written they often times didn't seem to stand up well.

Then their were also a number of ones that just seemed to be literature circle jerks to me.
 
Heh. I've met this person.

i-PZcFD8Z-2100x20000.jpg
 
I want to see Solo, but honestly, I think the biggest thing to me is that after The Last Jedi, I'm kind of fatigued on Star Wars.

I'm a giant Star Wars nerd. Used to read all the novels and everything. And honestly I liked The Force Awakens. I really liked Rogue One.

The problem is that The Last Jedi is like half a good movie. The half with Rey, Kylo Ren, and Luke is fantastic. The whole rest of the movie is 1. Introducing flaws into characters that they either never had (suddenly Poe is a hothead who doesn't listen to anyone), or 2. that they already got over (Suddenly Finn needs to run away again). And then, I hear about how the movie was made. How basically Rian Johnson was given full whatever to do whatever. It really feels like they have no idea where the hell they are GOING with the trilogy. And that is the part that I think is disillusioning me to the whole thing.

Whatever you think of the Marvel movies, and they do course correct over time, but you can tell that when they are making one, they are thinking of where the hell the storyline is going. Meanwhile, on Star Wars, it feels like they don't care.

Solo looks good. It genuinely looks like something I would enjoy, all the people I trust who have seen it says it is good. But somehow, even after the prequel trilogy... maybe it is just how soon this is after The Last Jedi, maybe if a movie came out right after Attack of the Clones it would have had the same effect, but somehow, I just can't be assed right now to actually go see it.
 
You guys are making me all happy I haven't been able to see the last Jedi yet. I'll see Solo first and then TLJ if I have time.
 
Bunch said:
I was in a book club with a bunch of much more classic literature heavy gals than myself. What kept hitting me over the head is that the success of the ideas in the novel had caused so many of their radical or significant ideas to become mainstream that the novels themselves now seemed to elicit a 'Duh' reaction from me while reading them. If you fail to put them in context of when they happenwd to be written they often times didn't seem to stand up well.

Then their were also a number of ones that just seemed to be literature circle jerks to me.
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To me the ideas in a novel are rarely what I'm interested in, for that I read philosophy, history and essays. I favour intensity and vivid imagery in fiction.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
Nothing against Solo itself. It might actually be as good as people say. I may in fact watch it someday.

It's pretty transparent and simple really - Last Jedi was a tragic mistake, but the real dealbreaker was the smug, scornful, obtuse attitudes of the filmmakers and media toward any fans who disapproved of it.

Sure, nothing will stop Disney Star Wars now, but I'll gladly relish and disseminate any pratfalls the current showrunners experience while denying them my pitiful handfuls of dollar bills for the foreseeable future.

Irrational? Petty?
Sure, whatever, dismiss me any way you want. That said, if studios and their media buddies don't want millions of fans turning on them and forming headwinds against their franchises, it would behoove them to be more diplomatic with their spin.

And, you know, build on things rather than deconstruct them.
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So it’s just a Schadenfreude chaser to more TLJ butthurt. Got it.

I’m sorry you feel that way, ‘cuz it’s a fun little movie.
 
Trippy said:
I like Dune.
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I very recently reread the first 4 Dune novels. I did so with the knowledge that a new film adaption is being attempted. I tried, as I read the first one, to picture how one could go about adapting it - what parts to cut, what to condense, even did some inner casting in my head*. The ultimate conclusion I came to, in regards to the first novel, the actual "plot" is kinda boring. What I find captivating and engaging in the book is all the stuff that is, from what I can tell, barely filmable. How would one go about showing a person's ability to "walk through" potential futures? How do you include the essential philosophical elements while maintaining the pace and rhythm of film that has to go from political subterfuge, escape, and insurrectionist warfare in the span of @2 hours? It seems like you either have the choice of making a very dry, plodding, thoughtful film that would only appeal to people like me (knowing that I represent a minority in tastes), or focus on the "action" of the story at the expense of the subtext of the story, which, as I said, is not really very interesting as a plot.

I think if ANY of the Dune books would make for a good film, it would actually be "God Emperor of Dune". It has a nice blend of visuals, encroaching plot, and philosophical debate that actually pushes the tension in the story forward that I could very easily see it being a successful film.


* - from that point on I continue to picture Gurney as being played by Tom Waits
 
TristramEvans said:
I very recently reread the first 4 Dune novels. I did so with the knowledge that a new film adaption is being attempted. I tried, as I read the first one, to picture how one could go about adapting it - what parts to cut, what to condense, even did some inner casting in my head*. The ultimate conclusion I came to, in regards to the first novel, the actual "plot" is kinda boring. What I find captivating and engaging in the book is all the stuff that is, from what I can tell, barely filmable. How would one go about showing a person's ability to "walk through" potential futures? How do you include the essential philosophical elements while maintaining the pace and rhythm of film that has to go from political subterfuge, escape, and insurrectionist warfare in the span of @2 hours? It seems like you either have the choice of making a very dry, plodding, thoughtful film that would only appeal to people like me (knowing that I represent a minority in tastes), or focus on the "action" of the story at the expense of the subtext of the story, which, as I said, is not really very interesting as a plot.

I think if ANY of the Dune books would make for a good film, it would actually be "God Emperor of Dune". It has a nice blend of visuals, encroaching plot, and philosophical debate that actually pushes the tension in the story forward that I could very easily see it being a successful film.


* - from that point on I continue to picture Gurney as being played by Tom Waits
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Dune is being remade as we speak by Denis Villeneuve (Arrival, Blade Runner 2049, Sicaro). It comes out in 2019 (first part of two films). If there is one current director who could make it work it is him.
 
Trippy said:
Dune is being remade as we speak by Denis Villeneuve (Arrival, Blade Runner 2049, Sicaro). It comes out in 2019 (first part of two films).
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Yeah, thats what I'm referring to.

I read it with the thought "how could this possibly be made into a good film?"

The only answer I could come up with is to completely ignore the book and make a film "inspired by it" like Jodorowsky's plans (or like the original Bladerunner, coincidentally).
 
TristramEvans said:
Yeah, thats what I'm referring to.

I read it with the thought "how could this possibly be made into a good film?"

The only answer I could come up with is to completely ignore the book and make a film "inspired by it" like Jodorowsky's plans (or like the original Bladerunner, coincidentally).
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Thing is, when Jodorowsky was planning to make it in the 1970s, the main frame of reference for any sci-fi movie was 2001: A Space Oddysey (rather than Star Wars, which had yet to be released). While I love this movie, it's main appeal to a sector of the audience lay heavily in the more surreal, psychedelic aspects of it. Looking at Jodorowsky's previous movies (El Topo, The Holy Mountain), it's almost certain that he was amongst this crowd and probably saw the most prominent sci-fi novel of the 60s as a means towards doing something crazily surreal, rather than a more grounded and thematic story.

When David Lynch directed Dune, another very weird, surealist director, he did so primarily as a vehicle towards other projects (Blue Velvet, etc) and has expressed a lack of genuine interest in the sci-fi genre since then too. While the visuals of the movie were striking, again he was more interested in drawing out his own themes and directions rather than those of the book. The movie was also a bit rushed in narration, had difficulties in working out how to present inner monologue, and the director himself lost the right to a 'final cut' when the producers took it over.

Denis Villeneuve, on the other hand, has expressed a real interest in the sci-fi genre and has a track record of making really atmospheric, tightly themed and well rounded, complex movies now. The movie is also being broken into two - as the book itself was - which should make for a bit more breathing time to establish the story and characterisation. It's not a guarantee for quality, but I have my faith in what he can do.
 
The Butcher said:
So it’s just a Schadenfreude chaser to more TLJ butthurt. Got it.

I’m sorry you feel that way, ‘cuz it’s a fun little movie.
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To be honest, I feel as though Shipyard Locked Shipyard Locked has personally attacked me. I dislike that, even though I want to like him.

And note, I actually agree that TLJ is a bad movie! I just think that Shipyard is acting like a bad person by doing what he does! I don't like it as I want to be his friend!

@TristamEvans , Endless Flight Endless Flight , Baulderstone Baulderstone , I hereby request that this thread be locked before more tempers are ruffled and an official reprimand be given to Shipyard Locked for behavior unbecoming of anyone with a sense of morality and ethics.
 
Shipyard Locked Shipyard Locked , if you want to pick a fight, let's jump to death threats right now!

You are petty and irrational and if you want to pick a fight with me, go be a mind-rapist!
 
TristramEvans said:
Now if only we could get an HD Blue-ray release of Gremloids...

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I know what I did was wrong, but to be honest, I've given up on debate and discussion. I mean, it's clear that Shipyard Locked isn't willing to listen (it also doesn't help that our views are well-nigh identical now, but differ on a few crucial points), so there really is nothing left to do but fight and score rhetorical pounds of flesh.

Edit: I don't want this any more than you do, but times like these are just where you are tempted to just lash out.
 
Templum Domini Templum Domini, what the heck is going on? Are you being facetious in some way? It's just a movie, not a religion, you had no friends or family involved in the making of it, and I'm just some random nobody on a niche forum. Is this really worth getting upset over?
 
Templum Domini said:
I know what I did was wrong, but to be honest, I've given up on debate and discussion. I mean, it's clear that Shipyard Locked isn't willing to listen (it also doesn't help that our views are well-nigh identical now, but differ on a few crucial points), so there really is nothing left to do but fight and score rhetorical pounds of flesh.

Edit: I don't want this any more than you do, but times like these are just where you are tempted to just lash out.
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Maybe just take a break and calm down. Taking it personally that someone criticizes a film that you like will only make any time you spend online needlessly stressful. Shipyard hasnt done anything to attack you, he wasnt even responding to you in the post that seemed to set you on edge. It's okay for people to have different tastes. That's why there's an entire aisle at the supermarket devoted to breakfast cereals.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
Templum Domini Templum Domini, what the heck is going on? Are you being facetious in some way? It's just a movie, not a religion, you had no friends or family involved in the making of it, and I'm just some random nobody on a niche forum. Is this really worth getting upset over?
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No, this is not facetious and this is not banter. I am just angry over something I don't fully understand (like I said, our views are well-nigh identical now). Just...I don't deal with disagreement well. Comes with most of my time spent on social media.

That and Tv.Tropes, various fanfiction forums, and other less savory places of the Internet. Basically, I'm a 'progressive fundamentalist' (the term is not meant to be political in this context) who on his off days, perceives disagreement as a violation of 'cosmic truth' and petty arguments as 'cosmic moral warfare'.

And yes, I am getting therapy.
 
Trippy said:
Actually, if people are interested in Jadorowsky's work, they could have a look at the Metabarons RPG....
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Yeah, Metabarons is something I've been looking to get into ever since the Jodorosky's Dune documentary. I've got the Incal and the 4 volumes of MB primed up on my amazon wishlist, but havent taken the plunge just yet.
 
The Butcher said:
I’m sorry you feel that way, ‘cuz it’s a fun little movie.
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I've repeatedly said I might end up seeing Solo.

To be honest, it's not like I would have rushed out to see Solo in theaters if TLJ had been good either. I just don't go to movie theaters much anymore, even for things I like.
 
TristramEvans said:
Maybe just take a break and calm down. Taking it personally that someone criticizes a film that you like will only make any time you spend online needlessly stressful. Shipyard hasnt done anything to attack you, he wasnt even responding to you in the post that seemed to set you on edge. It's okay for people to have different tastes. That's why there's an entire aisle at the supermarket devoted to breakfast cereals.
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I only liked Solo, not TLJ; Shipyard actually converted me to his point of view on that movie. It's just...what triggered my 'psychosis' is the fact that Shipyard seemed to be vindictively picking fights and doing low blows...which is hypocritical of me as I do the same - it just feels worse seeing others do it.
 
Templum Domini said:
See above; let's just say that I am a big hypocrite who does not like seeing other people pick fights and be vindictive as it triggers similar behavior in me.
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Templum, for your own sake as much as anything, let me step into my moderator shoes and say for now, leave the thread. Come back later and reevaluate the situation. I think it will look different under a different light. But for now, I'm, I dunno, temporarily threadbanning you for about 6 hours. Relax, find another good conversation to engage in.
 
Why can't we go back to the good old classic SW movies like the greatest of all time here!
 
Endless Flight said:
Yeah I would agree with that. That discussion happens with popular music as well. Who will be remembered in a couple hundred years? The Beatles? Dylan? The Stones? Maybe. Never know for sure. “Difficult to see, the future is.”
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Someone linked that player piano version of "Black Hole Sun" from Westworld in the music thread recently. My take on that is that the show is far enough in the future that nobody notices it as an anachronism in the Old West as the pop culture as the people that visit the park are as capable of distinguishing between the 19th and 20th century culture as the average person today is capable of distinguishing between whether something is from the 15th or 16th centuries. It's just old-timey music. That's all that matters.
 
Baulderstone said:
Someone linked that player piano version of "Black Hole Sun" from Westworld in the music thread recently. My take on that is that the show is far enough in the future that nobody notices it as an anachronism in the Old West as the pop culture as the people that visit the park are as capable of distinguishing between the 19th and 20th century culture as the average person today is capable of distinguishing between whether something is from the 15th or 16th centuries. It's just old-timey music. That's all that matters.
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Reminds me of "Diana, Warrior Princess"
 
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