Starship combat in RPGs

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Thanks for this. It looks like one of those SciFi deep dive sites like the Anchorpoint essays for Alien I enjoyed when I was younger.
Oh you are in for a treat then. This isn't just any site. It is

ATOMIC ROCKETS!

Winchell Chung is a legend for making this place.

Everything you want to know about spaceflight and space for fiction or RPGs is here.
 
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Have you simply had it up to here with these impotent little momma's-boy rockets that take almost a year to crawl to Mars?

Then you want a herculean muscle-rocket, with rippling titanium washboard abs and huge geodesic truck-nuts! You want a Torchship! To heck with John's Law, who cares if the exhaust can evaporate Rhode Island? You wanna rocket with an obscenely high delta V, one that can crank out one g for days at a time. Say goodby to all that fussy Hohmann transfer nonsense, the only navigation you need is point-and-shoot.

Pure gold.
 
The basic problem with starship combat in fiction is that any even remotely realistic space travel is stultifying boring. It's The Cold Equations all the way down. This is why every space combat setting is Trafalgar, Jutland or Midway, depending on which era of wet-navy combat the author is riffing off of.

In much the same way that if your man-to-man combat system is rooted in a somewhat realistic medieval skirmish wargame you will get unexpected PC deaths and occasional TPKs, if your space combat system is rooted in a squadron scale starship combat miniatures game, you will get unexpected catastrophic hull breaches and reactor containment failures. It's inevitable. It's baked into the system.

As the resident filthy hippie storygamer I'll point out that the fix here is to emulate the genre tropes and not the science, which means foregoing using a miniatures wargame as your combat system and switching to something more narrative.
 
I think by now it's pretty obvious that when we'll get around to killing ourselves in space, the battles will be fought by unmanned drone swarms. Nothing else makes sense.
Anything containing squishy, delicate carbon-based lifeforms (and the resulting limitations on accelerations' G-forces) would be a sitting duck. Not to mention the waste of space, weight, fuel, heat and assorted resources just to accomodate the useless (in battle) life support systems for the squishies.
 
I think by now it's pretty obvious that when we'll get around to killing ourselves in space, the battles will be fought by unmanned drone swarms. Nothing else makes sense.
Anything containing squishy, delicate carbon-based lifeforms (and the resulting limitations on accelerations' G-forces) would be a sitting duck. Not to mention the waste of space, weight, fuel, heat and assorted resources just to accomodate the useless (in battle) life support systems for the squishies.
Light speed lag.

Ranging from 2 seconds from the Earth to the Moon to 3 to 20 minutes to Mars.
 
The basic problem with starship combat in fiction is that any even remotely realistic space travel is stultifying boring. It's The Cold Equations all the way down. This is why every space combat setting is Trafalgar, Jutland or Midway, depending on which era of wet-navy combat the author is riffing off of.
Or it is the Expanse.

Or if you want to take a crack at it yourself there is Children of the Dead Earth for $20.


As for RPGs, I don't have a solid grip on how I would handle the abstraction of realistic space flight into a set of mechanics. But it is unlikely to involve a tactical grid. Games that use vectors are not inaccurate in on sense, but they fail to capture how the battle will play out in terms of how it starts and how orbital mechanics impacts things. And the nature of "terrain" in space.

The space battles in the Expanse (book and show) are spot on as a starting point even with their torch ship physics. Why? Because all ships are torch ships so while they go further and faster into the solar system relative to each other they have the same issues as chemical rockets fighting one another.
 
Light speed lag.

Ranging from 2 seconds from the Earth to the Moon to 3 to 20 minutes to Mars.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?
If you mean drones can't be remotely guided, it's obvious that they will be at least tactically autonomous. Hell, we can already build autonomous weapons today.
 
Or it is the Expanse.

Torch ships, ergo not even remotely realistic. Corey has explicitly said that he couldn't tell the kind of stories he wanted to with realistic space drives so he had to fudge the technology to reduce travel times.

Or if you want to take a crack at it yourself there is Children of the Dead Earth for $20.

That's a video game, dude.
 
Torch ships, ergo not even remotely realistic. Corey has explicitly said that he couldn't tell the kind of stories he wanted to with realistic space drives so he had to fudge the technology to reduce travel times.
Yes and like most good science fiction, they make a handwave and go with how life works for the rest of it. How they use orbits and trajectory is spot on which is why so many in the science community like the books and the show.


That's a video game, dude.
With a N body physics simulator along with thermal and kinetic energy modeling. Not a half-assed let pretend a flight simulator emulates space engine.

I had some experience with the subject.
 
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?
If you mean drones can't be remotely guided, it's obvious that they will be at least tactically autonomous. Hell, we can already build autonomous weapons today.
Drones relying solely on tactical autonomy will lose out compared to Drones with tactical autonomy and humans in the loop to adjust for unforeseen circumstances. Hence the side that able to have human near the site of a battle will have the advantage with all else being equal.
 
Drones relying solely on tactical autonomy will lose out compared to Drones with tactical autonomy and humans in the loop to adjust for unforeseen circumstances. Hence the side that able to have human near the site of a battle will have the advantage with all else being equal.
Yes, but all else won’t be equal. The side with humans at the site will have at least one ship constrained by having humans aboard and having to carry a massive habitat, long-endurance life-support systems, supplies, radiation shielding, and enough delta-v to recover the humans in timely fashion after the battle.
 
Let's take the idea behind this.
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1) Human have to fly aircraft with no assistance like the Wright Brother.


2) Humans now can fly aircraft with mechanical assistance like hydraulics to control aircraft they otherwise wouldn't have the strength to deal with.


3) Human now can fly aircraft with electronic assistance that allow more sophiscated assistance like autopilots and controlling instability caused by turbulence. This develops to the point where planes that would be unflyable manually can be safely made and used as combat aircraft.


4) Sensors and other instrument have become digital and their input allow algorithms to be developed to allow planes that can fly and fight themselves provided there is a human linked via radio to make high level decisions

5) Pattern recognition software, neural network learning, and sensing, and have grown to the point where it possible to upload a location, tell a drone to go there, fire X,Y, and Z at a particular location and return.

In the future pattern recognition and machine learning will even more sophiscated and allow drones and robot to be even more autonomous. But none of the technology is "thinking". Instead it is a sophiscated with parameters set by people. The setup allows them to more with less work. For example a small guard ship/station with a minimized sensor signature can have a crew of one or two command a fleet of drone within communication range. Where it would take the work of thousands to do the same thing in an earlier age. The small crew is making the high level decisions that the drone fleet implements. Because they are close they can change priorities in a way that software algorithms can't. Because they are closer they can do it faster than somebody the next planet over that has a light speed lag of minutes.

But what about artificial intelligence? It won't exist barring a fundamental breakthrough in understanding consciousness. Even animal level of consciousness. There isn't a foreseeable path in the next several decades where somebody could build a robotic cockroach, chuck it out the door, and have survive in a week still fully functioning just living its life. But folks will be able to do some amazing things using this stuff as sophisticated tools.
 
Yes, but all else won’t be equal. The side with humans at the site will have at least one ship constrained by having humans aboard and having to carry a massive habitat, long-endurance life-support systems, supplies, radiation shielding, and enough delta-v to recover the humans in timely fashion after the battle.

Yes that is a disadvantage however it outweighed by having a faster OODA loop. The ship isn't there to fight, but to command.
 
Yes that is a disadvantage however it outweighed by having a faster OODA loop. The ship isn't there to fight, but to command.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t, depending on how good the AI is and how many months or years the operation must last for. Suppose that you can make a drone as smart as a Border collie and get it in theatre in six weeks for $27 million, whereas sending a human will take seven months and cost half a billion even without any way of getting the human back alive.
 
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Drones relying solely on tactical autonomy will lose out compared to Drones with tactical autonomy and humans in the loop to adjust for unforeseen circumstances. Hence the side that able to have human near the site of a battle will have the advantage with all else being equal.

I completely disagree. If anything, systems restrained by humans' reaction times will be at a huge disadvantage. You're massively underestimating even today's A.I. capabilities, let alone future ones. While a general A.I. is far from being written, specific ones are already frightfully effective at the limited tasks they need to do. And tactical efficiency is a limited task.

But even assuming your hypothesis was correct, I fail to see how that changes the overall picture. So you have one carrier with a few squishy humans in it, and with several hundred thousands tiny armed drones loaded in it. The drones slug it out helped by the humans, and whichever swarm wins then proceeds to atomize the now unprotected enemy carrier. Apart from the few bastards doomed to die on the losing carrier, 99.99999% of the fighting will still be going on between unmanned drones. It's not like having your carrier reconfigured as a "battleship", or having several carriers, is going to be an advantage, especially if, as a result, you end up with having to build fewer drones.
 
I completely disagree. If anything, systems restrained by humans' reaction times will be at a huge disadvantage. You're massively underestimating even today's A.I. capabilities, let alone future ones

My day job involves robotics for metal cutting machines.
. While a general A.I. is far from being written, specific ones are already frightfully effective at the limited tasks they need to do. And tactical efficiency is a limited task.
I disagree that tactical efficiency is a limited task.

But even assuming your hypothesis was correct, I fail to see how that changes the overall picture. So you have one carrier with a few squishy humans in it, and with several hundred thousands tiny armed drones loaded in it. The drones slug it out helped by the humans, and whichever swarm wins then proceeds to atomize the now unprotected enemy carrier. Apart from the few bastards doomed to die on the losing carrier, 99.99999% of the fighting will still be going on between unmanned drones. It's not like having your carrier reconfigured as a "battleship", or having several carriers, is going to be an advantage, especially if, as a result, you end up with having to build fewer drones.
The original argument that human don't need to be involved. My thesis is that if one side only autonomous drones and the other side sends both drones and humans. The side with human will win due to a having a faster OODA loop. And the investment involving humans doesn't need to be that great compared to the investment of combat firepower represented by the drone fleet.
 
Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t, depending on how good the AI is and how many months or years the operation must last for. Suppose that you can make a drone as smart as a Border collie and get it in theatre in six weeks for $27 million, whereas sending a human will take seven months and cost half a billion even without any way of getting the human back alive.
They can't make a drone as smart as a cockroach now or in the foreseeable future let alone a border collie. But since we are talking hypotheticals then a human would able to handle the OODA loop faster and easier than a border collies smart drone.

The problem is that consciousness even at the insect level isn't understood. While the breakthrough on formerly hard problems like winning Grandmaster chess, or vision recognition were enabled by insights into how those specific tasks can be accomplished. But those insight haven't led to answer or beginning of answers to how living things with nervous systems think. Even as something as basic as an insect.

My prediction of progress that what AI will be are ever more sophiscated tools that extend the ability of people to do things. For example a resident of a house of 2120 will be able to work with fabricator that will be able to create the perfect dress or suit based on the individual's input and then make there in the house.


A more current example is this.

It creates very convincing photos of people that don't exist. What it doesn't tell you is which would be good to use as the station manager for the Arcturus Deep Range Laboratory. You have look until you see the one that leaps out at you. Future version may have controls that allow you make the process easier by specifying various attributes like gender. But in the end it can't decide for you which image makes for the best station manager. Only you can.

I have deal with this all the time with the metal cutting machines I develop. I have to get across that they are tools and not magic boxes despite the smarts we put into them.

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Drones relying solely on tactical autonomy will lose out compared to Drones with tactical autonomy and humans in the loop to adjust for unforeseen circumstances. Hence the side that able to have human near the site of a battle will have the advantage with all else being equal.

So Midway, then.
 
They can't make a drone as smart as a cockroach now or in the foreseeable future let alone a border collie.

They can't make a military spaceship that could sortie to Mars and return, either. Yet.

But since we are talking hypotheticals then a human would able to handle the OODA loop faster and easier than a border collies smart drone.
I don't think that's clear. If you have ever seen a border collie (or perhaps an ACD) playing chasing games with human children you will know that cattle dogs are tactical savants. Besides which, remember the psychology experiment with the gorilla suit and the basketball: human perceptions and perceptual integrations are pretty damned clunky; a robot might well react more reliably and faster.

But even if not, a border collie in the right place at the right time with enough delta-vee up its sleeve is worth more than Eddie Rickenbacker half an AU away, six months too late, with dry tanks and doomed to die. Not to mention that you might have forty of the collies.

Human crew, their life support and radiation shielding, their food and air supplies, their urge to survive, and their grieving orphans at the ballot-box are likely to be a crippling constraint on spaceships that might well not be overcome by their "consciousness", whatever that turns out to be.

The problem is that consciousness even at the insect level isn't understood.

Nor even defined. "Consciousness" is like "sentience", "intelligence", and "soul"; it is the latest is a string of terms used without an operational definition, that have been coined to assert a human superiority of ability or value that is not in evidence.

My prediction of progress that what AI will be are ever more sophiscated tools that extend the ability of people to do things.

Your prediction is not universally shared. Pattern-recognising expert systems already out-perform human physicians (internists, not surgeons) at diagnosis, and they are in the process of replacing research assistants and the associates at law firms. A friend of mine who is a senior project manager at Oracle (and actually involved in developing these capabilities) reckons that in less than five years he'll be firing junior programmers, and that it is a race too close to call whether his career will end with superannuation in 2033 or be cut short by the obsolescence of human development managers.

I have deal with this all the time with the metal cutting machines I develop. I have to get across that they are tools and not magic boxes despite the smarts we put into them.

Yes, but we don't need magic boxes. We don't even need automatics that are better than humans. It might be enough that we can put them in cheaper, faster, more capable ships. It might even be enough that they be expendable.

It doesn't matter if the automatics glitch occasionally. That wouldn't even matter if humans never glitched. What matters is how often a billion dollars worth of robots beats a billion dollars worth of a human in a habitable ship.
 
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Yes, but all else won’t be equal. The side with humans at the site will have at least one ship constrained by having humans aboard and having to carry a massive habitat, long-endurance life-support systems, supplies, radiation shielding, and enough delta-v to recover the humans in timely fashion after the battle.
A drone-based task force will most likely need at least one these as well, unless high-grade tactical AIs and all the hardware they need (computers, sensors, etc.) are cheap enough that you can write them off after each mission. If you can, then humans will be a huge liability because they'll be wanting to come home and the AI doesn't need to. However, if drone carriers and their C&C electronics (and their support hardware, which might not be a light as people think are too expensive to just expend, they'll need all that extra delta-vee to come home that a human-crewed command ship will.

I'm sceptical of competent AIs that are up to command and control turning up any time soon, but if they do space will be the ideal place for them to first be deployed. It's tactically simple, and there's very little clutter to mess up identifying targets, friendlies, etc.

With realistic rockets humans can afford to be a long way away from the point of battle, because any shoot/no-shoot decisions will be made long in advance of the battle, as the forces will be able to see each other long before they get into shooting range. Even target priorities, etc., might well be able to be assigned hours before the battle. With unrealistic drives, things could change, because shorter times between seeing the fight coming and shooting mean the shoot/no-shoot decision makers need to be closer to keep lightspeed lag to a reasonable time.
 
I think you guys are massively overestimating the needed A.I. capabilities for such a drone swarm. They only need to do one thing efficiently: "move to position X and destroy everything that moves and doesn't transmit the correct ID codes as quickly as possible".

I also think that, by the time we'll start killing each other in space, technology will have advanced enough that the swarms won't be composed of a few dozens "big" drones, but much more likely it will be millions of micro-drones each with a very simple (and thus cheap) but space-effective weapon. I fail to see how any human intelligence is supposed to be better at real-time coordination of even just the movements of such a swarm that an even current dedicated A.I. can be.

As for delta-V requirements: those will be mostly reserved for initial deployment and combat. A sufficiently small drone can use extendable panels and the solar sail concept to limp back to whatever refueling station it needs to, after the battle has been won, even with zero fuel left on board. Hell the most useful task of an hypotetical carrier would probably be as refueling station and/or to shoot the lasers on those sails, rather than having the swarm wait for the absurdly slow human reaction times to get their orders.
 
Thanks for this. It looks like one of those SciFi deep dive sites like the Anchorpoint essays for Alien I enjoyed when I was younger.
You should totally read through Atomic Rockets. It's fabulous, plus you get to see where the authors of The Expanse got all their jargon from.
 
They can't make a military spaceship that could sortie to Mars and return, either. Yet.
Actually they can, it was hugely expensive engineering R&D until SpaceX got into the picture. No amount of money will get you an AI yet.
I don't think that's clear. If you have ever seen a border collie (or perhaps an ACD) playing chasing games with human children you will know that cattle dogs are tactical savants. Besides which, remember the psychology experiment with the gorilla suit and the basketball: human perceptions and perceptual integrations are pretty damned clunky; a robot might well react more reliably and faster.

But even if not, a border collie in the right place at the right time with enough delta-vee up its sleeve is worth more than Eddie Rickenbacker half an AU away, six months too late, with dry tanks and doomed to die. Not to mention that you might have forty of the collies.
Right now if there is a pattern to be found then the software can be written to handle it. So given time and studies, I have no doubt that many of the thing a border collie can do can broken down into it elements and translated into software. That underlying software (and in some cases hardware) will continue to develop to handle more sophisticated pattern similar to how collies figure out how to herd sheep in different terrain and weather conditions.

However the combine result still won't be as flexible or the independence of a border collie. Because a border collies has consciousness and is more than the sum of it instincts. The reason is because is environment and life are complex and abound with exceptions and nuances. Life has grown to adapt to that even in plants and simple organisms. And it is very very hard for any type of machine to approach that level of flexibility. But again individual elements and behaviors can be isolated and done very very well with what we have and what is projected to happen in the next hundred years.

You can have a swarm of drones guarding Mars against intruders. But it doesn't know why it is guarding Mars. Only how to classify X as a intruder to be defended against, and Y as not.


Human crew, their life support and radiation shielding, their food and air supplies, their urge to survive, and their grieving orphans at the ballot-box are likely to be a crippling constraint on spaceships that might well not be overcome by their "consciousness", whatever that turns out to be.


Nor even defined. "Consciousness" is like "sentience", "intelligence", and "soul"; it is the latest is a string of terms used without an operational definition, that have been coined to assert a human superiority of ability or value that is not in evidence.
Disagree and having seen human and robotic side by side in a manufacturing plant it obvious what the strength and weakness of both are.

Your prediction is not universally shared. Pattern-recognising expert systems already out-perform human physicians (internists, not surgeons) at diagnosis, and they are in the process of replacing research assistants and the associates at law firms.
Both are activities involving a lot of pattern recognition. And neither set of system are able to handle why you are making a diagnosis or even what to do about a diagnosis. The same with the legal research. Pattern recognition expert system are tool that extend the productivity of a human being in exactly the same way earth moving machine eliminated the need to have gangs of diggers on a construction site.

A friend of mine who is a senior project manager at Oracle (and actually involved in developing these capabilities) reckons that in less than five years he'll be firing junior programmers, and that it is a race too close to call whether his career will end with superannuation in 2033 or be cut short by the obsolescence of human development managers.
I am able to do more in 2022 because of my programming environment improved. I can do more with less work because of the techniques and advances in understand how software framework works. In the 90s anytime I had a list of stuff to maintain there was a lot of boilerplate code that had to be typed out and tested. Then wizards came along, then generics, templates, and interfaces and so on. In the last decade, a lot of development has been made on recognizing how entire programs are structured and with pattern recognition/neural networks the creation of large section of software can be created. But they don't know why they are creating what they are creating.

Yes, but we don't need magic boxes. We don't even need automatics that are better than humans. It might be enough that we can put them in cheaper, faster, more capable ships. It might even be enough that they be expendable.

It doesn't matter if the automatics glitch occasionally. That wouldn't even matter if humans never glitched. What matters is how often a billion dollars worth of robots beats a billion dollars worth of a human in a habitable ship.
Or my case how well a completely automated shop does versus a shop with heavy automation with human integrated into the work flow. Hint the latter is able to handle a wider variety of jobs at different volumes than the former. In this regard combat is no different. The future will have huge amount of automation but the best system will remain where they function as tools extending what people can do rather than complete replacement.
 
I think you guys are massively overestimating the needed A.I. capabilities for such a drone swarm. They only need to do one thing efficiently: "move to position X and destroy everything that moves and doesn't transmit the correct ID codes as quickly as possible".

And then Ad Astra arrives with a broken transponder because the captain is a cheap bastard who holds off on maintenance.

I also think that, by the time we'll start killing each other in space, technology will have advanced enough that the swarms won't be composed of a few dozens "big" drones, but much more likely it will be millions of micro-drones each with a very simple (and thus cheap) but space-effective weapon. I fail to see how any human intelligence is supposed to be better at real-time coordination of even just the movements of such a swarm that an even current dedicated A.I. can be.
People are not there to coordination the interactions of a swarm. Using the real world example of drone light shows, people decide what going to be shown. Uploads the flight pattern, and the drone swarm handles the rest.

In the future, a pattern recognition software can handle creating a entire show pleasing to the sensibilities of a target audience. But a human still has to tell the swarm about the audience. And a human need to review the result to make sure the software didn't go off the rails because something was missing from its training data. Or there was a unforeseen connection that need to be excluded.

 
And then Ad Astra arrives with a broken transponder because the captain is a cheap bastard who holds off on maintenance.

I agree, Luca's example drones are a completely unethical military system. Reasonable humans wouldn't develop them that way for the same reason we don't have surface-to-air missiles protecting sensitive sites that automatically fire. There would be a 100% chance that someone who is not the intended target or an actual threat would not be aware of the exclusion zone, would not hear some kind of warning, or would just ignore it, and autonomous weapons down to land mines are considered unacceptable in most advanced societies (for good reasons).
 
I agree, Luca's example drones are a completely unethical military system. Reasonable humans wouldn't develop them that way for the same reason we don't have surface-to-air missiles protecting sensitive sites that automatically fire. There would be a 100% chance that someone who is not the intended target or an actual threat would not be aware of the exclusion zone, would not hear some kind of warning, or would just ignore it, and autonomous weapons down to land mines are considered unacceptable in most advanced societies (for good reasons).

Point the first: the Ad Astra captain knows full well what happens to spaceships identified as enemy vessels when they enter the operational range of military drone swarms, so he's an idiot who deserves to be atomized.

Point the second: are you seriously, honestly claiming that the drones will never be manufactured because they're unhetical?
Do I need to point out at biological and nuclear warfare weapon systems? Or hell, even just those same land mines you mention? Someone did develop them, didn't they?
In fact, with any semi-decent programming they would actually be infinitely "more ethical" than any of those other weapons since the possibility of friendly fire and/or collateral damage would be vanishingly small. As an example, the aforementioned Ad Astra would be trivially easy to identify by visual pattern recognition alone, even with the malfunctioning transponder due to the idiot captain.
 
<shrug> Maybe I wasn't clear then. I meant that while the technology might have been developed, an ethical society won't use them. Case in point would be the current US stance on chemical and biological weapons, as well as land mines (on the latter we refuse to use anything that lacks the capacity for command detonation). Which is not to express some kind of judgement about US ethical standards overall, just in that instance. The same is the reason why the US absolutely could produce a fully autonomous drone, but continues to require human-controlled firing.

Your original parameters for their programming were: "move to position X and destroy everything that moves and doesn't transmit the correct ID codes as quickly as possible". I'm no computer scientist, but I think that the processing and conceptual requirements for "can also visually recognize common ship patterns, behavior patterns, and make immediate decisions regarding the destruction of the target or not" would be a touch more complex than what you originally described.
 
Point the first: the Ad Astra captain knows full well what happens to spaceships identified as enemy vessels when they enter the operational range of military drone swarms, so he's an idiot who deserves to be atomized.
The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Point the second: are you seriously, honestly claiming that the drones will never be manufactured because they're unhetical?
Well the problem is like using poison gas after World War I. It all well and good until the wind blow in the opposite direction. It is all well and good with an autonomous drone network until the USS Kearsarge has a short and their IFF system blinks out.

In fact, with any semi-decent programming they would actually be infinitely "more ethical" than any of those other weapons since the possibility of friendly fire and/or collateral damage would be vanishingly small. As an example, the aforementioned Ad Astra would be trivially easy to identify by visual pattern recognition alone, even with the malfunctioning transponder due to the idiot captain.
History littered with automation ideas that seemed good on paper. But when implemented, actual conditions played merry hell even with the advanced systems we have today. No matter how much you think it covered exception are the norm, hence the need to have humans in the loop.
 
I can think of at least three occasions when civilian airliners have been shot down with humans in the decision loop. Numerous generals and field officers through history had been shot by their own pickets. USN aviators in WWII were notorious for strafing ships flying the Australian and Dutch flags.

Occasional friendly-fire incidents don’t mean that you lose the war.

While on the other hand including a human, its life-support system, its supplies of air, water, and food, and its radiation shielding adds tonnes to the payload mass of a spacecraft, restricts its endurance significantly (in the case of operations at ranges where lightspeed lag is significaant), limits it performance, and imposes a need for sufficient reserve delta-vee to recover the craft before the crew dies of suffocation or gets a lethal dose of radiation.

Robotic spacecraft can make sorties that crewed ones just can’t, and are drastically cheaper.
 
This discussion is reminding me of the background of the Horizon Zero Dawn game.
 
Robotic spacecraft can make sorties that crewed ones just can’t, and are drastically cheaper.

So, from that logic, with the cost of a hypothetical war at trillions of dollars, and the cost of 100 nuclear warheads at 8.4M dollars each coming in at 1000's of times cheaper, the answer should be the nukes?
 
Nukes certainly make for very effective weapons in space, yes.

Your original parameters for their programming were: "move to position X and destroy everything that moves and doesn't transmit the correct ID codes as quickly as possible". I'm no computer scientist, but I think that the processing and conceptual requirements for "can also visually recognize common ship patterns, behavior patterns, and make immediate decisions regarding the destruction of the target or not" would be a touch more complex than what you originally described.

You can trivially easily have drones which can switch between battle mode ("no ID = INSTAKILL") and patrol mode ("take all the milliseconds you need for your neural network to visually identify the target"). It's not like the drones programming needs to be unique and fixed. And the reaction times needed for swarm vs swarm situations would obviously be quite more stringent than for other situations.
 
Nukes certainly make for very effective weapons in space, yes.



You can trivially easily have drones which can switch between battle mode ("no ID = INSTAKILL") and patrol mode ("take all the milliseconds you need for your neural network to visually identify the target"). It's not like the drones programming needs to be unique and fixed. And the reaction times needed for swarm vs swarm situations would obviously be quite more stringent than for other situations.
How do they know which mode to be in? If they're in war mode at the wrong time, they're a war crime in the making. If they're in patrol mode at the wrong time, they just lose to an enemy drone swarm. If they're out past Jupiter and the nearest humans are on Earth, and they require human decision-making on the matter, the encounter will be over by the time a request for a status upgrade is sent and an answer returned.
 
So, from that logic, with the cost of a hypothetical war at trillions of dollars, and the cost of 100 nuclear warheads at 8.4M dollars each coming in at 1000's of times cheaper, the answer should be the nukes?
No, obviously not. I think you have misconstrued or misapplied the logic, probably disingenuously.
 
How do they know which mode to be in? If they're in war mode at the wrong time, they're a war crime in the making. If they're in patrol mode at the wrong time, they just lose to an enemy drone swarm. If they're out past Jupiter and the nearest humans are on Earth, and they require human decision-making on the matter, the encounter will be over by the time a request for a status upgrade is sent and an answer returned.

Either autonomous decision or trasmitted command. And no, there's no way they're going to be "surprised". You cannot stealth in space, unless you can reduce your heat signature to ZERO. Not low, zero. Which is not possible.

[EDIT] Ok, it's obvious from the various replies I keep receiving that we're envisioning a complete different mode of space wars.
Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone. IMO, given that space is:
  1. Huge
  2. Empty
  3. Lethal
  4. Cold

it's pretty obvious that the way space wars will be fought is going to be completely different from current or past wars. For one, 99.999 (and many more 9)% of that space is useless and no one is going to bother conquering or holding it.
Second, stealth is impossible because no matter what you do, you're going to emit heat and we just sent up in orbit around L2 a space telescope so freaking sensitive to infrared radiation to be able to detect a bumblebee at the earth-moon distance (source: CBS article on Webb) so good luck not getting detected by future, even more advanced technology.
Third, given the previous two points, it's essentially impossible to intercept someone who does not want to be intercepted. Too much empty space, too many possible trajectories, too big of a forewarning of anyone approaching. Not to mention absurdly high relative velocities making any encounter which is not a planned rendezvous outrageously brief.
Fourth, any human involved in a space shootout is going to have a ridiculously low life expectancy.

This to me points out to war fought exclusively in the immediate vicinity of points of interest (planets, moons, asteroids etc.) by battles set up sending armies of automonous drones weeks or months in advance. Whichever one arrives first gets the tactical advantage of optimal deployment, both swarms will know much in advance their relative positions, approach vectors etc. and they will nuke each other.
There's simply no way of having starship (or starfighter) formations going pew-pew. The physics of space do not work that way. Once a swarm has destroyed the other, that battle is over. There is not going to be any more fight in that corner of space until another drone army is sent there. Anyone stupid enough to approach a swarm while being recognized as hostile is going to be vaporized and that'd be it. The spaceship with the squishy humans of the friendly faction is going to arrive days or weeks later and get on with mining/colonizing/building luxury resorts or whatever the hell was the reason to fight over the space rock.
 
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No, obviously not. I think you have misconstrued or misapplied the logic, probably disingenuously.
Ethical considerations are the only points where hyperbole is pertinent. The point of the extrapolation was that cheaper doesn't mean better when you're talking about making decisions that kill people.

I would personally prefer to think of sci fi where the overall isn't a Neal Asher novel, or where I'm able to suspend my disbelief just enough to have interesting stories without having to explain the Tyranny of Tsiolkovsky to players who just want their characters to shoot aliens.
 
It might be interesting to come up with a list of outcomes from losing starship combat that aren't simply "death"...

I can think of the following, can we come up with at least ten for a d10 roll?

1. The ship no longer functions, you are adrift in space with limited time until the air runs out
2. You have just enough time to reach the escape pods before the ship explodes, which will automatically land on the closest planetary body
3. Your ship's suffered severe engine damage, you won't be able to move until you can repair it
4. Your ship's functions have all suffered sever damage, you can only work one of them - engines, life support, communications, etc by rerouting all available power to that function
5. You managed to get into a space suit and exit the craft before destruction, but you are now adrift in space with limited air supply
 
6. The ship's frame and structural members have been critically compromised, and it's a dockyard job at best. It can still fly, but anything but the gentlest and slowest of maneuvers (and combat is Right Out) will split it into pieces.

7. All ship's functions are down to 10-20% of capacity. When in doubt, the "higher" functions are the ones offline. For example, jump/FTL drives are down, but sub-light maneuver drives still work ... or main guns and missiles are down, but some anti-missile secondaries still function.

8. As with #7, but at least one crucial system is fatally (and possibly irrevocably) constrained: such as a maneuvering system that will only turn the ship continually to starboard, or a main turret that will no longer traverse and can only fire in one direction, or computer banks wiped of everything except e-mail, saved games and the assistant engineer's porn collection.

9. All ship's functions are down to 30+% of capacity, but the bridge (and any auxiliary bridges) has been destroyed, along with all computerized navigational instructions and aids. Operating any system must be done from local control (if they exist) or jury-rigged breadboarding (if not).

10. Pick a result above not otherwise resulting in the destruction of the ship, but damages to crew spaces, corridors and gangways make damage control unusually difficult: it takes at least three times as long as normal, and has such suitable penalties as the GM wishes.

Heck, let's go for a d12:

11. The ship had to dump its fusion bottle/warp core/etc., and whatever the state of the ship's other systems, it's down to emergency power systems and batteries. All systems are down to a fraction of normal capacity (and it might be effectively #4) short of a dockyard job, and energy-hungry systems such as main weapons, defensive shields and warp drives are just SOL.

12. All ship's functions are down to 30+% of capacity, but the power conduits and capacitors are heavily compromised, leading to random power surges and outages. Every system requiring power has only a 75% of working each time you try it, and every 1d10 minutes you operate it, it has a 25% chance of shorting out and requiring to be restarted.
 
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It might be interesting to come up with a list of outcomes from losing starship combat that aren't simply "death"...

I can think of the following, can we come up with at least ten for a d10 roll?

1. The ship no longer functions, you are adrift in space with limited time until the air runs out
2. You have just enough time to reach the escape pods before the ship explodes, which will automatically land on the closest planetary body
3. Your ship's suffered severe engine damage, you won't be able to move until you can repair it
4. Your ship's functions have all suffered sever damage, you can only work one of them - engines, life support, communications, etc by rerouting all available power to that function
5. You managed to get into a space suit and exit the craft before destruction, but you are now adrift in space with limited air supply
Some of those depend on spaceships being watercraft or aircraft in disguise — which, to be fair, they often are by genre convention.

In more-or-less realistic spaceships (1) is okay, but (2) has the problem that you can't build escape pods with enough life-support endurance, delta-vee, or re-entry and soft-landing capacity that are any smaller than the ship, (3) is the same as (1), and (5) is simply death.

Ocean-ships have lifeboats because they can sink; spaceships can't. Aircraft sometimes have parachutes and escape hatches because aircraft can stall; spaceships can't. In space it is almost always best to stay with the wreck. A spacesuit is not an analogue for a life-jacket or parachute because in space there is no way to sink or to fall.

The exceptions are when the wreck is about to explode and for some reason you can't jettison the volatile fuel or ordnance, and when the wreck is on a trajectory for disaster. One problem in the first case is that ship explosions, like that of HMS Hood and USS Maine, for instances, tend to be sudden and allow no time to abandon ship. The big problem in either case is that space is so huge and hostile, and orbital mechanics so demanding, that you need a lot of life support, consumables, shielding, and delta-vee to do anything about it. Lifeboats aren't really practical and are very seldom useful. Stay with the wreck.
 
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