the new Masks of Nyarlathotep

[Trippy]

Just because you can fight back harder on an individual level doesn't mean the overwhelming cosmic horror won't be your undoing in the end; that's how.

That's not the point though. The real visceral horror is missing when you can just kick the ass of everything. The tone is different. You are no longer running The Exorcist, you are running The Evil Dead instead. The cosmological horror is just an after-effect.

 

[Tele-Viper]

But you can't kick the "ass of everything," that's the point. You are just a slightly toughened PI rather than a desk-bound academic. Sure, you can punch out some cultists but you are entirely vulnerable to the monsters and Mythos. When you've managed some physical success, the greater vulnerability is even scarier, imo.

 

[Baulderstone]

That's not the point though. The real visceral horror is missing when you can just kick the ass of everything. The tone is different. You are no longer running The Exorcist, you are running The Evil Dead instead. The cosmological horror is just an after-effect.

Is The Evil Dead that great an example to prove your point? The first one is pretty much straight horror. While the second one become more comedic, Ash spends most of the time getting his ass kicked, and becomes increasingly unhinged as the movie progresses. He's forced to murder his girlfriend, cut off his own hand, and the only ally he makes is later killed by that hand. He survives, but barely, and ends the movie in despair, trapped in the past and about to have to fight the evil again. The movie skews towards comedy, but if you just look at the plot beats, its a pretty great example of how pulp and horror can co-exist.

Keep in mind, I don't see pulp as equating to invincible good guys. Most of the great hard-boiled detectives spend a lot of time getting worked over by thugs. Their toughness lies more in their ability to take a beating and keep going than in their ability beat people up.

 

[Mankcam]

For enduring Call of Cthulhu campaigns I would recommend the Pulp rules, if only to increase the character survival chances, plus it adds a bit more fun to the game. Thwarting Thuggee cultists and Nazi agents is alot of fun. Just avoid the Big Bads in the background.

I would definately use the Pulp rules with Masks Of Nylarthotep and Horror On The Oriental Express.

For one-shot sessions, or sessions set in Arkham, I would use the standard rules as its more in keeping with the Lovecraftian flavour and it is more about investigating the stark gothic horror. Character death actually adds to this.

 

[Trippy]

Is The Evil Dead that great an example to prove your point? The first one is pretty much straight horror. While the second one become more comedic, Ash spends most of the time getting his ass kicked, and becomes increasingly unhinged as the movie progresses. He's forced to murder his girlfriend, cut off his own hand, and the only ally he makes is later killed by that hand. He survives, but barely, and ends the movie in despair, trapped in the past and about to have to fight the evil again. The movie skews towards comedy, but if you just look at the plot beats, its a pretty great example of how pulp and horror can co-exist.

Keep in mind, I don't see pulp as equating to invincible good guys. Most of the great hard-boiled detectives spend a lot of time getting worked over by thugs. Their toughness lies more in their ability to take a beating and keep going than in their ability beat people up.

Yes, I think it's a pretty reasonable example. It is comedic, but it is framed by a certain action-style - the kinetic camerawork, and the slapstick violence, in which the consequences are minimal (like chainsawing off your own hand, etc). The actual 'cosmic horror' stuff is still there though, despite the tonal shift - it has a Lovecraftian-ish backstory. And while I like The Evil Dead, and entirely agree it might be an excellent example of how pulp and horror can exist, the point is that the tone is completely different to The Exorcist. So if you have a system that is weighted much more towards high action heroic stuff, but still want to create the more sombre - and vulnerable - tone of The Exorcist, then that system isn't helping you much. I like having Call of Cthulhu games provide that tone for certain scenarios - I want players to know that they are just ordinary folk who can die, easily, if they make the wrong choices or even if they don't. Pulp action heroics are not the same thing at all - but yes, I can see how they would be entirely appropriate to a campaign like Masks of Nyalathotep.

The other take on cinematic the on 'Pulp Horror' is Raiders of the Lost Ark, of course, but how much anybody finds that scary at all these days at all I don't know.

 

[Trippy]

But you can't kick the "ass of everything," that's the point. You are just a slightly toughened PI rather than a desk-bound academic. Sure, you can punch out some cultists but you are entirely vulnerable to the monsters and Mythos. When you've managed some physical success, the greater vulnerability is even scarier, imo.

Well, you can measure things in differing ways about how much more you can kick ass, but the fact is that Pulp Cthulhu rules are deliberately pushing your characters more in that direction - the more competent they are in violent situations, the less vulnerable they are as a direct inverse relationship - and not every encounter is supposed to be up against Cthulhu. If my character now has more HP than a Hound of Tindalos, it's proportionally less of a threat.

 

[Baulderstone]

Yes, I think it's a pretty reasonable example. It is comedic, but it is fouled by a certain action-style - the kinetic camerawork, and the slapstick violence, in which the consequences are minimal (like chainsawing off your own hand, etc). The actual 'cosmic horror' stuff is still there though, despite the tonal shift - it has a Lovecraftian-ish backstory. And while I like The Evil Dead, and entirely agree it might be an excellent example of how pulp and horror can exist, the point is that the tone is completely different to The Exorcist. So if you have a system that is weighted much more towards high action heroic stuff, but still want to create the more sombre - and vulnerable - tone of The Exorcist, then that system isn't helping you much.

I'd say The Exorcist is further from Lovecraft than The Evil Dead movies. It's Catholic universe where secular Hollywood elites pay the price for turning their back on God by leaving their children vulnerable to demons. It's a fantastic horror novel and movie, but far, far from the uncaring, random cosmos of Lovecraft.

I like having Call of Cthulhu games provide that tone for certain scenarios - I want players to know that they are just ordinary folk who can die, easily, if they make the wrong choices or even if they don't. Pulp action heroics are not the same thing at all - but yes, I can see how they would be entirely appropriate to a campaign like Masks of Nyalathotep.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there shouldn't be rules for a "purist" tone. I love running purist stuff as well. I just think you are arguing a case that would exclude mythos horror stories by Robert E. Howard and Clark Ashton Smith that Lovecraft himself admired.

The other take on cinematic the on 'Pulp Horror' is Raiders of the Lost Ark, of course, but how much anybody finds that scary at all these days at all I don't know.

My nephews were talking about the scary parts for weeks.

 

[Trippy]

I'd say The Exorcist is further from Lovecraft than The Evil Dead movies. It's Catholic universe where secular Hollywood elites pay the price for turning their back on God by leaving their children vulnerable to demons. It's a fantastic horror novel and movie, but far, far from the uncaring, random cosmos of Lovecraft.

It's a different mythos (much closer to Kult, if we are checking this), but I'm really talking about the tone here - you can imagine a CoC scenario where characters are doing the same sort of things (exorcising demons from a child) except you'd build it around the Lovecraftian tropes. There are a number of Lovecraft tales involving possession to work with too, and a few scenarios that do this sort of thing too - check out Unseen Masters - but without the right tone, it wouldn't work. Fundamentally, these tales do not revolve around action heroes.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there shouldn't be rules for a "purist" tone. I love running purist stuff as well. I just think you are arguing a case that would exclude mythos horror stories by Robert E. Howard and Clark Ashton Smith that Lovecraft himself admired.

I've never held with the dichotomy between 'pulp vs purist' as an idea. I think Lovecraft's tales were obviously both 'purist' (as in the actual stories!) but were also pulp literature too. What we are really characterising is the difference between the action and thriller genres, in effect - and the horror genre can lean either way. The new CoC7E rules, with Pulp Cthulhu at one end, have pushed in just one way though.

My nephews were talking about the scary parts for weeks.

Lightweights!