David Johansen
Legendary Pubber
- Joined
- May 4, 2017
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Well, that one's easy: if the source books aren't compatible you have to buy them all again.
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Well, I think we can all agree on this account, at least!The second most damaging thing to the hobby is DC Heroes being out of print. A travesty if there ever was one!
I view it differently. He and the Forge caused a lot of damage to ttrpgs due his musings of whether we're having fun and doing it right. He gave focus to a division that's with us today.When the dust settles, I think we can say that whatever we think of Forge theory it does seem to have inspired people to create games.
A few bona fide hits and then the same number of good, mediocre and bad games as everyone else produces.
(Notably, I don't include any of Edwards in my list of good games to come out of the Forge. I really don't get on with his writing style which biases me).
I always found the ideas behind RPG theory too needlessly highbrow, and I'm an academic. I like the idea of analysing the concepts behind our games, but a lot of Forge stuff I felt like was designed to alienate people.
When the dust settles, I think we can say that whatever we think of Forge theory it does seem to have inspired people to create games.
A few bona fide hits and then the same number of good, mediocre and bad games as everyone else produces.
Theory is a tricky thing. I don't think rpg theory neccessarily is intended to lead to better games or better GMing, that is a utilitarian goal which is worthwhile but I'm unsure if that is the purpose of any artistic theory.
Film and literary theory are not intended to lead to better films or novels, it is more about analyzing those forms for greater insight. I guess those insights could lead to better films or novels but I've never seen that claim made in the mountains of film theory, for instance, that I read in school.
I fully accept that other mechanics are viable , just that there is a cost to that of reducing access. As with all design, there are trade offs.And this is, in my book, the most damaging idea both in the hobby and outside of it!
The d20 craze also showed that this really isn't a good idea. There are genres for which the d20 chassi, for example, simply won't work, not without extreme gutting of the mechanics most people associate with it.
Like, you know, most kinds of non-D&D inspired fantasy!
Perhaps it's also about how it influenced other designers - 4e D&D and some of the theory about gamer preferences in that editions DMG definitely seem influenced by the concepts discussed at the Forge.Sure, a number of people created games. But did it impact the hobby? I'd suggest not. When all is said and done, the same few handful of games dominate 95% of the hobby, and everyone else is chasing after that last 5%. How many Forge-inspired games have any offline name recognition at all?
Heck, here's my silly anecdote along those lines. Take Dogs In the Vineyard, one of the more prominent of those indie names. Only a couple years ago, looking it up on Wikipedia, did I see its author's name. Several years ago, Vincent Baker was a fellow parishioner at my small-town church. I'd been an acquaintance of his wife's since the 1980s. No idea Vincent was a gamer, no idea he wrote that RPG.
Also nope. Tell us more!Nope.
Sure, if you're talking about "new edition of a previously successful game". If we're talking about new games...nope, you're not reducing access at all.I fully accept that other mechanics are viable , just that there is a cost to that of reducing access. As with all design, there are trade offs.
...citation needed. Especially on the "a lot" part.A lot of good stuff came out of d20.
Sure. But far from all OSR books are good ones, too...OSR actually shines in the "not-rulesy" part: adventures, settings, GM materials, and such (if you take the effort to adapt them to different systems).It's not my taste preference but it kicked off the OSR movement.
Sure...Lets leave it as one way to go
And I was just about to paste the interview with his co-creator!Also nope. Tell us more!
Edit- its the guy who designed FATAL - please ignore my previous remark. Don't.
Sure, if you're talking about "new edition of a previously successful game". If we're talking about new games...nope, you're not reducing access at all.
...citation needed. Especially on the "a lot" part.
'Cuz I can name less than 5 such examples that I'd play "as is".
Sure. But far from all OSR books are good ones, too...OSR actually shines in the "not-rulesy" part: adventures, settings, GM materials, and such (if you take the effort to adapt them to different systems).
Sure...
And I was just about to paste the interview with his co-creator!
When I talk about hits to be clear I'm really talking about the big two.Sure, a number of people created games. But did it impact the hobby? I'd suggest not. When all is said and done, the same few handful of games dominate 95% of the hobby, and everyone else is chasing after that last 5%. How many Forge-inspired games have any offline name recognition at all?
Heck, here's my silly anecdote along those lines. Take Dogs In the Vineyard, one of the more prominent of those indie names. Only a couple years ago, looking it up on Wikipedia, did I see its author's name. Several years ago, Vincent Baker was a fellow parishioner at my small-town church. I'd been an acquaintance of his wife's since the 1980s. No idea Vincent was a gamer, no idea he wrote that RPG.
Believe it or not, my reviews are kinda inspired by what is broadly art criticism. But mostly what they're inspired by in that area is 90s British music journalism which doesn't really have big artistic agendas.Yeah, but those are art critiques. I don't know about you, but I have zero use for art critiques of games.
I'm definitely not interested in someone's supposed "insights" on RPGs, I've said what I think would make RPG Theory useful and worthwhile, not what would make it more like film or literary criticism.
Believe it or not, my reviews are kinda inspired by what is broadly art criticism. But mostly what they're inspired by in that area is 90s British music journalism which doesn't really have big artistic agendas.
THIS! OMG, yes, this.
I'm changing my answer to this. Whoever got the idea that a new edition of a game meant a completely new, not in any way backwards-compatible set of rules, so that they are the same game "in name only".
Hands down the worst thing in the entire hobby.
You're probably right on that, though that's not what I was talking about.The issue of D&D players not wanting to play/try other systems has been discussed so many times that I am pretty sure there is an issue of access there.
...let's just agree to disagree, OK?I have Conan d20, Slaine RPG, d20 Modern (& supplements), Mutants and Masterminds, Midnight (& many supplements), Stars without Number. All worth the price of admission to me.
...Odd. D. Vincent Baker/Lumpley was very outspoken about his atheism back in his Forge days. Like, "I'm an ex-Mormon who hasn't been inside a church in over a decade" outspoken. But he is in Massachusetts now, and Meguey is a unsusual enough name that I doubt you would be thinking of a different Baker. Maybe it's the entire kill puppies for satan thing?Sure, a number of people created games. But did it impact the hobby? I'd suggest not. When all is said and done, the same few handful of games dominate 95% of the hobby, and everyone else is chasing after that last 5%. How many Forge-inspired games have any offline name recognition at all?
Heck, here's my silly anecdote along those lines. Take Dogs In the Vineyard, one of the more prominent of those indie names. Only a couple years ago, looking it up on Wikipedia, did I see its author's name. Several years ago, Vincent Baker was a fellow parishioner at my small-town church. I'd been an acquaintance of his wife's since the 1980s. No idea Vincent was a gamer, no idea he wrote that RPG.
About the only time I find an art critique useful is if I find myself stumped as to what to make of a piece of art. If that happens I'm more than happy to read someones break down that might offer me some insight. Similar if everyone I encounter talks about how they took something from a piece of art (book, painting, poem, movie, whatever), then I might also go out and seek some breakdowns or critiques of it. That's about the only time I go beyond the zero use for idea myself. It's uncommon but it does happen. heh.Yeah, but those are art critiques. I don't know about you, but I have zero use for art critiques of games.
I'm definitely not interested in someone's supposed "insights" on RPGs, I've said what I think would make RPG Theory useful and worthwhile, not what would make it more like film or literary criticism.
FATAL, and so many "oh this is so politically incorrect" products from so many oh so politically incorrect authors, is just... boring. It doesn't do anything with it's premise. It doesn't shock. It doesn't try to make you think, or challenge the reader, or put you in an uncomfortable position. It's the equivalent of writing every rude word you know on a tshirt; nobody cares. It's unnecessary.Also nope. Tell us more!
Edit- its the guy who designed FATAL - please ignore my previous remark. Don't.
About the only time I find an art critique useful is if I find myself stumped as to what to make of a piece of art. If that happens I'm more than happy to read someones break down that might offer me some insight. Similar if everyone I encounter talks about how they took something from a piece of art (book, painting, poem, movie, whatever), then I might also go out and seek some breakdowns or critiques of it. That's about the only time I go beyond the zero use for idea myself. It's uncommon but it does happen. heh.
FATAL, and so many "oh this is so politically incorrect" products from so many oh so politically incorrect authors, is just... boring. It doesn't do anything with it's premise. It doesn't shock. It doesn't try to make you think, or challenge the reader, or put you in an uncomfortable position. It's the equivalent of writing every rude word you know on a tshirt; nobody cares. It's unnecessary.
I've said it before, but without the grandstanding hyperbolic RPGnet review, FATAL would have been rightly ignored and forgotten.
Yeah, ironically I think TBP is what gave FATAL its fame.FATAL, and so many "oh this is so politically incorrect" products from so many oh so politically incorrect authors, is just... boring. It doesn't do anything with it's premise. It doesn't shock. It doesn't try to make you think, or challenge the reader, or put you in an uncomfortable position. It's the equivalent of writing every rude word you know on a tshirt; nobody cares. It's unnecessary.
I've said it before, but without the grandstanding hyperbolic RPGnet review, FATAL would have been rightly ignored and forgotten.
About the only time I find an art critique useful is if I find myself stumped as to what to make of a piece of art. If that happens I'm more than happy to read someones break down that might offer me some insight. Similar if everyone I encounter talks about how they took something from a piece of art (book, painting, poem, movie, whatever), then I might also go out and seek some breakdowns or critiques of it. That's about the only time I go beyond the zero use for idea myself. It's uncommon but it does happen. heh.
I've discovered a lot of authors and films I wouldn't have otherwise and my appreciation for a film/book has been deepened by good criticism.
I think more close readings of a game, an analysis of what it intends, its design and how it plays, would be particularly useful but I have my doubts that kind of more-or-less disinterested analysis will come often from fandom which has failed to not turn analysis into ax-grinding for their preferred style of play since the APA days.
The best game criticism of ttrpgs I've encountered so far, by Costikyan, Peterson, Paul Mason and Marcus Montola, have focused either on formalism (Costikyan, Montola) or historicism (Mason, Peterson).
...Odd. D. Vincent Baker/Lumpley was very outspoken about his atheism back in his Forge days. Like, "I'm an ex-Mormon who hasn't been inside a church in over a decade" outspoken. But he is in Massachusetts now, and Meguey is a unsusual enough name that I doubt you would be thinking of a different Baker. Maybe it's the entire kill puppies for satan thing?
I've said it before, but without the grandstanding hyperbolic RPGnet review, FATAL would have been rightly ignored and forgotten.
Come on, folks. Almost none of you have read it. Few of you have glanced at it. The great majority of you have taken your cues from MacLennan and Sartin's holier-than-you act. And in a field where rape, torture, murder and brutality happen routinely around your gaming tables, I'm pretty damn indifferent to the knee-jerk bandwagonism that this game is is the vilest and evillest thing ever to disgrace the hobby ...
What I think myself is that it's a lame, turgid, tasteless POS created by sophomoric frat boys who thought it'd be a giggle fit to include a few hot button tables waiting for the boring loser geeks to blow a gasket. Hall and cohorts were hoping to get a rise out of us. And they sure succeeded, didn't they just?
And if we'd just reacted with a yawn and a "What a crew of tools, this is lame, stop feeding the trolls, let's move on," and did so, FATAL would've dropped into a black hole.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just found it odd given what I knew. The church being UU makes much more sense -- My UU church has multiple gamers, including two different groups that are exclusively from the church. It also has a whole cadre of Atheists/Humanists.No, no, that really is the same Vincent Baker. Granted, we're talking the Unitarian Universalist church in Greenfield, but when all is said and done, Greenfield's a town of 17 thousand people, and where I knew Meg was from SCA days. What are the odds that there were more than one couple named Vincent and Meg Baker into geek culture in Greenfield, MA?
Greenfield's a town of 17 thousand people, and where I knew Meg was from SCA days. What are the odds that there were more than one couple named Vincent and Meg Baker into geek culture in Greenfield, MA?
I can absolutely confirm that all of this is referencing a single Vincent and Meguey Baker. They actually have shared a fair bit on storygames.com. Oh and lots of Unitarian Universalists are atheists and denounce organized church... But I also know Vincent and Meguey taught sex ed at the church (as shared on storygames.com)...No, no, that really is the same Vincent Baker. Granted, we're talking the Unitarian Universalist church in Greenfield, but when all is said and done, Greenfield's a town of 17 thousand people, and where I knew Meg was from SCA days. What are the odds that there were more than one couple named Vincent and Meg Baker into geek culture in Greenfield, MA?
I think you can still push boundaries and be subversive, but that can't be all you've got; you have to back it up with content. Look at, say, Thirsty Sword Lesbians, which has done very well for itself recently and combines being queer as hell with some very solid game design, or Zak S's stuff before he made himself unwelcome, or LOTFP's combination of a solid core rule set accompanied by weird art and adventures, or the scuzzy biblical apocalypse of Pandemonio.Yeah, ironically I think TBP is what gave FATAL its fame.
Shock RPGs don't really work now anyway. Alma Mater and HoL might have been outrageous in their day. But we live in a world where Family Guy is mainstream television and any gross photo is merely an internet click away. Shock is just pointless now.
I'm pretty sure I was on your side back then. The butting of heads was mighty!Yeah, I've said the same thing, and butted heads with that asshat MacLennan on TBP more than once on the subject. Hah, I'll even quote myself from one instance:
I'm pretty sure I was on your side back then. The butting of heads was mighty!
I agree, FWIW. Bad games get censored by not being played...well, and many good games who're simply not popular enough, too - but I still doubt there's anyone ever who has played FATAL, other than the group which made characters on a lark!It sure was. The ironic thing is that I'd looked through FATAL weeks before -- it was highlighted on Portal Of Evil, a site featuring bizarre and nasty websites. And reading through the posts I made on the subject, they swiftly morphed from "Ugh, this is a lame POS, idiot frat boy trolls" to startled shock (and, eventually, anger) at the idjits advocating contacting the FBI and holding book burnings.
My position, then as now, is that the knives that MacLennan, Sartin and their brainless acolytes were sharpening have been aimed at all of us. From Egbert to Dark Dungeons to Mazes and Monsters to Patricia Pulling to the Secret Service raid and forward, outsiders have wanted to serve us out in the same way. We have no business being censors ourselves.