The Star Wars Thread

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One thing that bugged me about the whole "subverting expectations" thing about the Last Jedi, is that, in the end, we still ended up with something that rhymed with Empire Strikes Back with some echoes of other things from the films.

Also, story lines that defied our expectations by being pointless. If you're going to subvert mythical story tropes by making their outcomes failures or, worse, pointless, you need to do something different with it. Otherwise it's just cynical!

Example 1: Finn and Rose go off on a side trek to find some hacker who can help them. Twist: the hacker betrays them. I can't think of any benefit to this story line other than our protagonists bond a little. The thing is... they could've bonded through any kind of story, why did it have to be a "we had hope in the face of adversity but we fucked up... because SUBVERT LOL heroes don't always succeed". But that's bullshit because we have plenty of Star Wars stories in which the heroes fail. That isn't anything NEW: neither is the concept of a supposed ally doing a Lando. How is this subversive?

Example 2: Rey goes off to learn from a reluctant mentor. Twist: he teaches her very little and she goes off, giving up. Okay, so... This was also entirely pointless: Luke teacher her nothing at all. Her big "aha" moment was in direct contradiction to Luke's teachings (It isn't about moving rocks... well actually yes it IS, LOL). Also, Rey isn't there to witness Luke's amazing Force Feat Sacrifice, so I guess she didn't really learn anything from that either (not even a 3 second reaction shot from her). I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Example 3: Rey decides to go confront Kylo and turn him to the good side, like in RoTJ. Twist: he seems to switch sides, killing off Snoke, but he's still fucking evil. Okay, so this idea of Sith being backstabbing liars is definitely nothing new to the saga. Where is the subversion there? A REAL subversion would've been Kylo Ren going "okay, I'm going to join the Resistance, let's go!". Bonus points: Rey turns to the Dark Side because of all the hopeless feelings of meaninglessness about her origin. Now THAT'S a subversion.

TO be clear, my complaints about TLJ are plot-based, not about any of the social media garbage floating around there. I generally liked this movie, but I cringe at all the claims that it is so damned "subversive". I don't buy it
 
Justin Alexander said:
... The entire sequel trilogy fundamentally lacks vision, mythological scope, and a desire to advance the Star Wars universe. But that's not on TLJ: That's on TFA.
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I agree with you about this part, for sure.

While I definitely felt child-like joy during some of the scenes in TFA, I admit that it was mostly due to the music and things that reminded me about the older films, not necessarily about anything NEW.

I'm also disappointed that they aren't giving more for Finn to do. A bit less slapstick comic relief, you know. As a Stormtrooper, he's SEEN THINGS. I'm all for comedy (A New Hope and Empire had plenty) but characters got good and serious when they needed to be. My favorite Finn moments were not the funny ones, I admit.
 
Justin Alexander said:
I find the reaction to TLJ which holds it to be a betrayal or undermining of what TFA set up to be puzzling: It's actually a ruthless follow-through on the situation TFA set up.

I'm of the opinion that TLJ largely confirms that TFA was, in fact, a pretty shitty sequel to the original trilogy and was fundamentally flawed. The entire sequel trilogy fundamentally lacks vision, mythological scope, and a desire to advance the Star Wars universe. But that's not on TLJ: That's on TFA.
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It is worth noting that there were screenplay drafts for Episode VIII and IX written around the same time at TFA, but when Johnson was brought on board, he did away with those screenplays completely, so he could play the defy expectations game in a series built on using reliable mythic archetypes. TFA, when it was being made, wasn't setting up anything that ended up happening in the TLJ.

Necrozius said:
I agree with you about this part, for sure.

While I definitely felt child-like joy during some of the scenes in TFA, I admit that it was mostly due to the music and things that reminded me about the older films, not necessarily about anything NEW.

I'm also disappointed that they aren't giving more for Finn to do. A bit less slapstick comic relief, you know. As a Stormtrooper, he's SEEN THINGS. I'm all for comedy (A New Hope and Empire had plenty) but characters got good and serious when they needed to be. My favorite Finn moments were not the funny ones, I admit.
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It would have been a lot more thematically interesting to have given Finn the plot that was given to Poe. Poe's thread in the movie seemed to be about him learning that being in the Resistance was all about not ever questioning the orders of your superiors, even when their super-secret plans are a complete and utter failure like Admiral Holdo's.

Turning Poe into an impulsive and troublesome hotshot didn't really work for me. He was presented in the first movie as a trusted prime mover in the Resistance, and Oscar Isaac is about 40 years old. It didn't make any sense for him to be treated as some troublesome brat by the Leia and Holdo . That's without getting into the issue of whether unquestioning loyalty should be presented as a virtue for an organization that is opposed to Space Nazis.

That's why putting Finn in that position would have been more interesting. For one thing, he is actually young, so the dynamic between the characters would make more sense. It would also be more interesting to have Finn, who fled being a Stormtrooper, to find himself once again as someone that was expected to shut up and do as he was told after joining the Resistance. It would have given the same elements a lot more weight rather then wondering why Poe went from being the guy Leia trusts with the mission to find Luke into someone that nobody will talk to.
 
They did manage to subvert the expectation that they would sell as many toys as they used to, at least judging by the incredible discounts and clearance sales that allowed me to get my son some really cool stuff relatively inexpensively. :thumbsup:
 
Justin Alexander said:
I find the reaction to TLJ which holds it to be a betrayal or undermining of what TFA set up to be puzzling: It's actually a ruthless follow-through on the situation TFA set up.

I'm of the opinion that TLJ largely confirms that TFA was, in fact, a pretty shitty sequel to the original trilogy and was fundamentally flawed. The entire sequel trilogy fundamentally lacks vision, mythological scope, and a desire to advance the Star Wars universe. But that's not on TLJ: That's on TFA.
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You can't look at TLJ and judge it on the merits and flaws of TFA. That's a ludicrous thing to do. A film has to stand or fall on it's own, or it fails it's function Which is one of the reasons I dislike the Prequel Trilogy. Too much of it requires 3rd party sources to explain what was going on.

TLJ is a mess because Rian Johnson didn't understand what he was doing. JJ Abrams might be shallow and cynical, but he's also got a good understanding of what makes a film work. He might play fast and loose with what has come before, but that's fine. He might use elements of what came before in ways that come across as unimaginative. But he understands why those elements work, even if he's riffing on someone else's ideas. He's doing his version of a jazz standard.

Rian Johnson didn't have a handle on the sandbox he was playing in. He was, as far as he was concerned, subverting cliches and bringing humour to the movie. What he was actually doing was taking all the good karma that JJA had built up, even though he was using nostalgia to do a lot of the heavy lifting, and throwing it out of a window.

I'm interested to see how well Rise of the Skywalkers does. I really do feel that Disney are chalking Solo up as an aberration and not a warning.
 
Baulderstone said:
That's without getting into the issue of whether unquestioning loyalty should be presented as a virtue for an organization that is opposed to Space Nazis.
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Putting aside the farcically mishandled Holdo example, that's a theme I really want to see explored in storytelling a lot more lately. You may start as "rebels" against something or other, but if you ever want to actually win and install lasting change, you're going to need to collectively learn discipline, patience, deference towards centralized authority, the ability to prioritize some values over others... basically the things that made the reviled "empire" what they are.
 
One thing Gronan said that changed my outlook on The Phantom Menace, he wanted to see Jedi at the height of their power being utterly badass and he got it. Jar Jar and Boss Whatever his name was still suck but there are good parts, heck the pod race is pretty cool, even if the two headed announcer is annoying. I guess that's my take on Star Wars, you have to take the good and make your peace with all the stupid.

I still think Finn should have been how the Empire was tracking the Resistance and that was why he had to leave, though perhaps cowardice is part of why he bailed on the first order.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
Putting aside the farcically mishandled Holdo example, that's a theme I really want to see explored in storytelling a lot more lately. You may start as "rebels" against something or other, but if you ever want to actually win and install lasting change, you're going to need to collectively learn discipline, patience, deference towards centralized authority, the ability to prioritize some values over others... basically the things that made the reviled "empire" what they are.
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Yeah, it is a genuinely interesting theme with multiple sides to it. TLJ sort of raised the issue, but it didn't actually examine it in any dramatic fashion. It isn't even clear that Rian Johnson was aware of the issue he was putting in the script.
 
I love the originial Saga series, and to an extent I don't mind the Prequels.
I have found most of the animated series fun to watch here and there, such as Clone Wars, Rebels, etc.
I also like the current single stories as well, such as Rogue One and Solo. I would love to see an Obi-Wan film following up on some of the threads from Solo, and I'm also looking forward to The Mandalorian series.

However I'm not sure if I'll include the Sequels in my personal canon, they just don't do it for me.
I will see the next film, but at the end of the day if the sum of it's parts don't work for me, then I can just edit it out of my own Star Wars EU.
I ever game in post-Rebellion era Star Wars I can easily run my own thing, possibly more influenced by stuff I read in the EU books like Heir To The Empire and such.

At the end of the day, the world doesn't stop if I do this, it's no dramas
 
JtT67LG.jpg
 
Shipyard Locked said:
JtT67LG.jpg
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I would love to hear from someone with better memories of the era than I whether there were Planet of the Apes action figures of the same scale as Star Wars ones in the era this product comes from.

Or, as seems more likely but only occurred to me while typing, whether that's supposed to be a Chewbacca-equivalent.
 
Simon Hogwood said:
I would love to hear from someone with better memories of the era than I whether there were Planet of the Apes action figures of the same scale as Star Wars ones in the era this product comes from.

Or, as seems more likely but only occurred to me while typing, whether that's supposed to be a Chewbacca-equivalent.
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I had a doll, I mean action figure, of General Ursus that I loved.

9553
 
I am almost certain that there were Apes action figures in that scale. Never saw or owned them irl however.
 
Yeah, the Planet of the Apes figures were by Mego at the time. They did eventually do smaller ones later on.
 
Endless Flight said:
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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, The Ultimate Preview

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View attachment 9436
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"Hey Artoo, remember that time when we saved the galaxy from my dad, your best friend? Sure beats nearly murdering my whiny nephew!"
 
Simon Hogwood said:
I would love to hear from someone with better memories of the era than I whether there were Planet of the Apes action figures of the same scale as Star Wars ones in the era this product comes from.

Or, as seems more likely but only occurred to me while typing, whether that's supposed to be a Chewbacca-equivalent.
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I had that case design. I don't know why I went for that over an official case. There was something about the art on the front little kid me liked.

I don't recall Planet of the Apes figures in the 3.75 scale. That doesn't mean there weren't any. All I could find on a cursory internet search were the larger Mego dolls like their classic super heroes and Star Trek figs.

The figures I recall from those times in that scale were Star Wars, Micronauts, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Buck Rogers, The Black Hole, and Battlestar Galactica. I'm pretty sure that case pre-dated at least a couple of those lines. I'm thinking it was sold in 79? It was definitely sold long before Kenner did the cool Darth Vader figure case.

I think the most recent Planet of the Apes back at that time had been the animated Filmation version and the live action TV show in 75. Those were a few years before the 3.75 figure boom, and fell firmly in the Mego doll era of figures.
 
Gabriel said:
I had that case design. I don't know why I went for that over an official case. There was something about the art on the front little kid me liked.

I don't recall Planet of the Apes figures in the 3.75 scale. That doesn't mean there weren't any. All I could find on a cursory internet search were the larger Mego dolls like their classic super heroes and Star Trek figs.

The figures I recall from those times in that scale were Star Wars, Micronauts, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Buck Rogers, The Black Hole, and Battlestar Galactica. I'm pretty sure that case pre-dated at least a couple of those lines. I'm thinking it was sold in 79? It was definitely sold long before Kenner did the cool Darth Vader figure case.

I think the most recent Planet of the Apes back at that time had been the animated Filmation version and the live action TV show in 75. Those were a few years before the 3.75 figure boom, and fell firmly in the Mego doll era of figures.
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Not sure when these came out, may have been later for the collector market.

9616
 
Voros said:
Not sure when these came out, may have been later for the collector market.
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Yeah, like Armchair Gamer said. Those are part of a larger line of multiple franchises which has been produced over the last few years.

The example you picture is actually much nicer than nearly all the others I've seen from that company.
 
Gabriel said:
Yeah, like Armchair Gamer said. Those are part of a larger line of multiple franchises which has been produced over the last few years.

The example you picture is actually much nicer than nearly all the others I've seen from that company.
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They've been improving. I keep up with Super 7 because they have the Masters of the Universe license, but I also keep an eye on the Universal Monsters ReAction figures, and the new line seems considerably better than the ones from a few years back, at least in test shots.
 
A 1983 TV special 'Classic Creatures' with Carrie Fisher and Billy Dee Williams collecting a quick paycheque.

 
tenbones said:
Heh Mission Accomplished...

Rumor: J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's Star Wars Movies Were Supposed to Reboot Franchise

A new rumor suggests J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi movies were supposed to reboot the entire Star Wars franchise.
boundingintocomics.com boundingintocomics.com
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That whole premise makes no sense: "We're going to pay George Lucas billions of dollars but not for the valuable copyrighted material he owned." Not to mention that "a new copyright under the old name" doesn't even make any sense since the name "Star Wars" is only trademark, not a copyright, and if they didn't acquire the copyrighted material then what did they buy? Is there any basis for the idea that Disney merely "licensed" the characters? According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, the transaction was an outright sale for billions in cash and Disney stock, not a licensing agreement.
 
Well think about it...

It *DOESN'T* make sense at all on its face, I totally agree with you. BUT... if it were true, it would be a salient case that supports my long held contention of the following...

1) I contend that the corporatization of Entertainment writ-large has ruined the quality of entertainment for years by synthesizing an algorithm of what "sells" and therefore watering down everything into a vanilla wasteland of low-concept easy-access jollies. You see this in music, fiction, movies, comics etc. The craft of these artforms have given way to what corporations have largely dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. In many ways these corporations have groomed the tastes of the last two-generations to being docile consumers of what they're being served. There is very little controversial or challenging entertainment fare out there. To the point, in the case of fiction and movies - most of these creators can't even follow something as tried-and-true and the "Heroes Journey" without fucking it up. A formula that has been around for THOUSANDS of years...

2) The primary decision makers (the ones with the money) have no personal interest in creating high-quality anything - they're interested only in their investors bottom line. They do not care about these franchises.

3) IF this theory is true - I can completely see how a corporate studio-head with zero understanding of these works would assume the Brand(tm) would underwrite such a venture to remove any kind of extraneous licensing fees they would incur to side-line Lucas. I can totally see these bumbling idiots doing that. I mean they've already allowed themselves to hire politically activated staff to infect their works where they put their personal politics over their art. Which is part of the decline of their brands. But the studios are too slow to react to this, as their Brand value is so ridiculously high they can barely register the slowdown.

Or... if not this.

4) They're just idiots.


But I can take or leave either. LOL
 
The people who run Disney aren’t idiots. They underpaid for both Star Wars and Marvel. They’ve got their money back already after a few years and hold about every box office record you could want. They also know that people chanting “Disney ruins everything they touch” is a very small minority.
 
Dumarest said:
That whole premise makes no sense: "We're going to pay George Lucas billions of dollars but not for the valuable copyrighted material he owned." Not to mention that "a new copyright under the old name" doesn't even make any sense since the name "Star Wars" is only trademark, not a copyright, and if they didn't acquire the copyrighted material then what did they buy? Is there any basis for the idea that Disney merely "licensed" the characters? According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, the transaction was an outright sale for billions in cash and Disney stock, not a licensing agreement.
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Come on. This rumor traces back to the Youtuber named Doomcock. I can't think of a more credible source.
 
It's like the YouTuber Midnight's Edge that has been reporting for two years now that he has "unnamed sources" that tell him that no one watches Star Trek: Discovery, and it will be canceled at the end of the season, (every season). That Alex Kutzman (executive producer of everything Star Trek for CBS), has secretly been fired behind the scenes but CBS is keeping him on the rolls to not let everyone know how badly everything is going. That the reason Star Trek: Discovery looks so different from TOS is because of some clause in the split ownership of Star Trek between CBS and Viacom that movie Star Trek and television Star Trek have to look at least 25% different from each other.

Yet Star Trek: Discovery is in production for its third season, as is Star Trek: Picard and Star Trek: Lower Decks. There's also two other Star Trek television shows in pre-production. And Alex Kurtzman has been at two different conventions in the past month to discuss Star Trek and how he's shepherding it for the next five years at least.

It's all bullcrap pulled out of his butt, but many old Trekkers lap it up and repeatedly regurgitate it because they want to believe it.
 
Apparition said:
It's like the YouTuber Midnight's Edge that has been reporting for two years now that he has "unnamed sources" that tell him that no one watches Star Trek: Discovery, and it will be canceled at the end of the season, (every season). That Alex Kutzman (executive producer of everything Star Trek for CBS), has secretly been fired behind the scenes but CBS is keeping him on the rolls to not let everyone know how badly everything is going. That the reason Star Trek: Discovery looks so different from TOS is because of some clause in the split ownership of Star Trek between CBS and Viacom that movie Star Trek and television Star Trek have to look at least 25% different from each other.

Yet Star Trek: Discovery is in production for its third season, as is Star Trek: Picard and Star Trek: Lower Decks. There's also two other Star Trek television shows in pre-production. And Alex Kurtzman has been at two different conventions in the past month to discuss Star Trek and how he's shepherding it for the next five years at least.

It's all bullcrap pulled out of his butt, but many old Trekkers lap it up and repeatedly regurgitate it because they want to believe it.
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32699b947162af33203783e4f58de94b.jpg​
 
tenbones said:
Heh Mission Accomplished...

Rumor: J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's Star Wars Movies Were Supposed to Reboot Franchise

A new rumor suggests J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi movies were supposed to reboot the entire Star Wars franchise.
boundingintocomics.com boundingintocomics.com
Click to expand...

Possible, but it seems a bit too conspiratorial … but after TLJ, my reaction is fundamentally "Who cares?" As far as I'm concerned, Luke Skywalker is happily married to Mara Jade and running the Jedi Academy, while keeping an eye out for a shadowy threat from the Unknown Regions. :smile:
 
It's a total conspiracy theory. The results, sadly, are still the results.
 
Endless Flight said:
The people who run Disney aren’t idiots. They underpaid for both Star Wars and Marvel. They’ve got their money back already after a few years and hold about every box office record you could want. They also know that people chanting “Disney ruins everything they touch” is a very small minority.
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Money alone is not the final arbiter of quality. C'mon you know that.

I'm all for Disney making gajillions of credits on *anything* they own. But I want quality entertainment. Not vanilla pap. What they've offered in Star Wars since its acquisition has been less than pap.
 
tenbones said:
Money alone is not the final arbiter of quality. C'mon you know that.

I'm all for Disney making gajillions of credits on *anything* they own. But I want quality entertainment. Not vanilla pap. What they've offered in Star Wars since its acquisition has been less than pap.
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I like all the movies they made. The Last Jedi’s probably my third favorite of them all so far (ten movies). I’ve seen them all since 1977 so I’m not an impressionable youth who doesn’t know what “real” Star Wars is. We’ll just have to disagree on that.

What I dislike immensely (and that’s probably not a strong enough word) is a certain portion of the fan base that has basically existed since the prequels were released that seems to think of themselves as the final arbiters of what everyone should like.
 
Endless Flight said:
What I dislike immensely (and that’s peobanly not a strong enough word) is a certain portion of the fan base that has basically existed since the prequels were released that seems to think of themselves as the final arbiters of what everyone should like.
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It goes back farther than that. There was an issue of Sci-Fi Universe in the mid-90s with the cover story "50 Reasons to Hate Return of the Jedi."

I am willing to admit that I may be too old, too attached to the old material, and not 'woke' enough for Disney's glorious new vision.

Side question for those who followed the EU to its bitter end: Does the Sequel Trilogy remind anyone else of the Legacy of the Force novels?
 
Armchair Gamer said:
It goes back farther than that. There was an issue of Sci-Fi Universe in the mid-90s with the cover story "50 Reasons to Hate Return of the Jedi."

I am willing to admit that I may be too old, too attached to the old material, and not 'woke' enough for Disney's glorious new vision.
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Further than that. Back in the summer of '83, I can remember an aunt grousing at a family gathering about how RotJ turned Star Wars into a children's movie and how it rehashed the Death Star plot.
 
Baulderstone said:
Further than that. Back in the summer of '83, I can remember an aunt grousing at a family gathering about how RotJ turned Star Wars into a children's movie and how it rehashed the Death Star plot.
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But was she wrong?
 
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