Vampire nth Ed

[opaopajr]

But I don't need to buy Depends underwear. I'm not incontinent and haven't been since the 1994 Midterms.

Also, why do you want me to bring tissues? Are we playing a "Magical Realm" sort of chronicle?

I sometimes forget how young you are.

Life lesson: with enough drugs, laughter, or terror incontinence is not limited to infancy or old age. The more you know!

Oh it's magical. It's magical world of darkness. so magical. So. Magical.

I like Changeling, too!

If you do that, I'll be sure to wear the Kingdom Hearts ball cap and the bright red sunglasses and talk in the thickest Southwest Virginia accent that is humanly possible.

"Haaaaaaaaaaaa~"

"Hello, are you OK?"

"Oh, they are from SW Virginnie, they aren't finished saying 'Hi' yet."

"~aaaaaaaaai."

I believe there is country-weaboos representation in magical girl anime now. They used to have Japanese countryside representation, and gaijin representation, so by now they should have some USA-ian country-weaboos. If not anime needs to be canceled for crimes against diversity! Mwa ha ha!

 

[Doc Sammy]

Also, tenbones when I'm down there, would you want to go chicken fishing with me?

I've got a fishing rod and some hooks. Now all I'll need is some seed corn to use as bait and a 9mm pistol too.

If anyone asks, we'll tell 'em some Yankees came down and shot the chickens. The farmer will go to his grave thinking that. Trust me.

 

[Séadna]

How hard would it be to play V5 rules but use the clans/setting/plot of 1&2e? Maybe it's just nostalgia but...

Or should I just bite the bullet and dive into the V5 fluff?

Pretty easy in my opinion. The rules section in 5E is quite short, you could try out the rolling system alone first, i.e. the 6+ sucesses, two 10s are four sucesses and hunger dice. After that the new potency/generation rules.

After that the only major rule difference is slightly different powers, or really the same powers with altered levels, but the fluff isn't need to know.

 

[FeralToaster]

Been reading the thread and I think I'll sit this one out. On a general Halloween and gaming note one of my group to volunteer to do a oneshot Gurps homebrew of Tal'Mah'Re. Just going to be our party of vampire pirates crewing the Queen Anne's Revenge out on the Stygian sea looking for adventure. We all know how it'll end but the fun is getting there.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Unless you want to play a Ravnos character (my favorite of the clans)

It's one thing to play a Gangrel or Brujah who's in the Camarilla. That metaplot mistake can be undone by invoking Rule Zero. But others are mechanically enforced simply by V5 enforcing and upholding that awful metaplot.

What's stopping you playing a Ravnos? Seriously, you don't need permission from White Wolf to do so.

A quick Google found me someone's homebrew version - https://www.v5homebrew.com/wiki/Ravnos

Don't like that one? Maybe because it doesn't have Chimestry? Great! Write up your own version. (New Vampire disiplinces aren't hard to write up, especially if you have the original as a base to work from.).

Also, Hunger Dice are terrible, unless you are trying to play in a very specific way (and if you are, then I say go for it!)

Remember that 1E only used words like "Gothic-Punk" and "Personal Horror" as marketing gimmicks for the time.

There's an irony here with your use of the term "remember". Because most of us are actually working from a basis of being around at the time which you actually aren't. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but it does mean I'm going to need actual strong arguments (with stuff like citations of someone saying it was just marketing speak) to believe you over my own memory. It's the same reason I wouldn't get into an argument with Old Geezer about what early D&D was like. He was there, I wasn't and I don't have the evidence to argue with that.

While the term was partly marketing in my view it certainly wasn't just that. The setting information went into detail about what a "gothic punk" world was. And the GM advice was full of stuff about personal horror. Sure, you could ignore that and lots of people did. But it existed outside of marketing material.

The actual books and modules from 1E and early 2E weren't really all about pretentious wangst or anything like that. Honestly, 1E lends itself better to "Trenchcoats & Katanas/Supers With Fangs" than it does to stuffy personal horror.

Mechanically, 1e didn't support anything well. (Genuinely I don't remember a single person playing VTM because they loved the mechanics). It was at best functional. At worst broken (increasing dice pools leading to increased botches was an obvious one).

That being said, 1E can support both styles, while V5 only supports the latter both via the default setting and more importantly. through mechanics such as Hunger Dice.

That's an interesting point. This may be partly because you prefer games that do lots of things averagely where others of us prefer games that focus on doing one thing well. No right or wrong answer there; just different preferences.

I never understood the rabid irrational hatred that the White Wolf purists had for anything remotely related to "Supers With Fangs" or "Trenchcoats & Katanas". It's one thing not to like a style, but to declare that it is the wrong way to play and that there is only "One True Way" to play the game just comes across as very pretentious and fun-hating.

*Shrug* I've also only ever come across it online.

Also, you are closer to those people than anyone else in this thread. If you really want I don't mind going through your posts on VTM to back that point up. (See what I said above. Arguments like this need a willingness to provide evidence if challenged otherwise they're just groundless assertions).

Not in its entirety, although I have read excerpts and some of the free preview stuff from before V5's full release. Needless to say, I'm not impressed and actually kind of disgusted.

On one hand I can get that. I don't spend money on games I'm not interested in either. On the other, it's another factor in why I think posters like the OP should be told where you're coming from upfront.

"Here is a game I don't play or GM and haven't read apart from extracts, but I will tell you what it's like anyway" is at least better to state upfront.

That's partly an issue because the culture on the Pub is such that people will generally assume that you've both read and played/GMed the game you're offering an opinion on unless told otherwise.

 

[Trippy]

Unless you want to play a Ravnos character (my favorite of the clans)

It's one thing to play a Gangrel or Brujah who's in the Camarilla. That metaplot mistake can be undone by invoking Rule Zero. But others are mechanically enforced simply by V5 enforcing and upholding that awful metaplot.

Also, Hunger Dice are terrible, unless you are trying to play in a very specific way (and if you are, then I say go for it!)

Remember that 1E only used words like "Gothic-Punk" and "Personal Horror" as marketing gimmicks for the time. The actual books and modules from 1E and early 2E weren't really all about pretentious wangst or anything like that. Honestly, 1E lends itself better to "Trenchcoats & Katanas/Supers With Fangs" than it does to stuffy personal horror.

That being said, 1E can support both styles, while V5 only supports the latter both via the default setting and more importantly. through mechanics such as Hunger Dice.

I never understood the rabid irrational hatred that the White Wolf purists had for anything remotely related to "Supers With Fangs" or "Trenchcoats & Katanas". It's one thing not to like a style, but to declare that it is the wrong way to play and that there is only "One True Way" to play the game just comes across as very pretentious and fun-hating.



Not in its entirety, although I have read excerpts and some of the free preview stuff from before V5's full release. Needless to say, I'm not impressed and actually kind of disgusted.

Ravnos remain in V5. They will be detailed in the Vampire Players Handbook.

If you are considering playing Vampires that aren’t defined by Hunger then you are ignoring the vast swathes of text in all editions of the game that define them that way. All 5e does is produce a more effect system for simulating that theme.

And you can play V1 using V5 as it’s merely a linear progression of time from the 90s to present, according to the meta plot. I mean, that’s the point of having a meta plot.

 

[Dumarest]

Rabbis remain in V5. They will be detailed in the Vampire Players Handbook.

I totally want to play a rabbi vampire-hunter. When do we start?

​

 

[Baulderstone]

Unless you want to play a Ravnos character (my favorite of the clans)

Bah! Any clan that wasn't in the 1st Edition core book isn't a real clan. The Players Guide completely diluted the purity of Rein-Hagen's vision for the game!

 

[Doc Sammy]

Bah! Any clan that wasn't in the 1st Edition core book isn't a real clan. The Players Guide completely diluted the purity of Rein-Hagen's vision for the game!

Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I totally want to play a rabbi vampire-hunter. When do we start?

View attachment 12898​

 

[Trippy]

I totally want to play a rabbi vampire-hunter. When do we start?

View attachment 12898​

Ahem... Ravnos! Damn iphone spellchecker.

 

[TristramEvans]

Edit: Nevermind, that was unnecessarily bitchy. Let's just say I have a pretty low opinion of Ravnos as a concept, and I think it makes complete sense to erase that mistake in the new edition.

 

[Gringnr]

Bah! Any clan that wasn't in the 1st Edition core book isn't a real clan. The Players Guide completely diluted the purity of Rein-Hagen's vision for the game!

This but unironically

 

[Trippy]

Edit: Nevermind, that was unnecessarily bitchy. Let's just say I have a pretty low opinion of Ravnos as a concept, and I think it makes complete sense to erase that mistake in the new edition.

We have to wait to see what happens, but I hope that the new version of the clan dissociates itself from any ethnic group.

 

[Mankcam]

Vampire The Masquerade always rocks.

This was the rpg that wiped the floor with D&D back in the 90s...well, WoD did that, but this was the premiere setting of WoD.

I love VtM V20 as it just continues on from the original setting, 20 yrs later.

However VtM 5E is also cool, it has a different flavour to the original and is very much a reboot. The changes in rules mechanics also look good (ie: Hunger Dice, etc).

VtM 5E is definately the one for new people to go for, and it is currently supported with new products and resources.

However many of the original VtM players from the earlier editions may prefer the V20 edition due to setting presentation familiarity and continuity

 

[Trippy]

Vampire The Masquerade always rocks.

I love VtM V20 as it just continues on from the original setting, 20 yrs later.

However VtM 5E is also cool, it has a different flavour to the original and is very much a reboot. The changes in rules mechanics also look good (ie: Hunger Dice, etc).

VtM 5E is definately the one for new people to go for, and it is currently supported with new products and resources.

However many of the original VtM players from the earlier editions may prefer the V20 edition due to setting presentation familiarity and continuity

Well, I disagree with that, actually.

V20 was a continuation of the developments in the line that begain with Vampire Revised edition - developed by Justin Achilli. Achilli was the deveoper of V20 also, and the direction of the game was fundamentally guifded by him. The earlier editions, namely 1st edition, were developed by Mark Rein-Hagen. The mode of play and the style of writing of 5e was a return to the vision outlined by Rein-Hagen which was why he was involved in the game development.

 

[Mankcam]

VtM V20 is the original setting, 20 yrs later, that's what I was getting at. By original I just mean that it's not the VtR setting, it is the setting of the VtM line (not just the first edition).

I actually preferred the loose simplicity of V1 however, as with each subsequent editions of the WoD line everything became more and more bloated until it felt like it was tripping over itself.

Whereas V5 feels like a reboot setting in its presentation, it's flavour feels different. Maybe it's just a different art direction or something.

It does feel kinda streamlined however, so I can see what you mean by the V1 connection there, as its a reboot that feels more true to it's roots than many other editions.

As an aside, I have had V20 for a few years, and only recently acquired V5, so my impressions are only skin deep with it so far. I need to give it a thorough read before forming strong opinions beyond first impressions.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Edit: Nevermind, that was unnecessarily bitchy. Let's just say I have a pretty low opinion of Ravnos as a concept, and I think it makes complete sense to erase that mistake in the new edition.

To be fair to Sammy on this the whole Ravnos linked to the Roma thing was 2e, not 1e. The unplayable Path of Paradox was as well. I'm not sure what gap they really fill in 1e but the eyebleed stuff came later.

 

[Baulderstone]

Vampire The Masquerade always rocks.

This was the rpg that wiped the floor with D&D back in the 90s...well, WoD did that, but this was the premiere setting of WoD.

You are correct in singling out Vampire. Working in a game store at the time, Vampire was the only one that really tapped into mainstream success. Werewolf had a lot of success among traditional gamers with its class/party structure and focus on going out and killing wyrm monsters. Mage tapped into a fringe crowd, the kind of gamers that played Over the Edge. Past that point, the games seemed to be getting diminishing returns.

Vampire was the one being bought by people that never played an RPG before.

 

[Baulderstone]

If I were to run Vampire again, which honestly isn't that likely, I'd go with 5th Edition for the hunger dice. Ken Hite is a savvy designer, and it was a great observation of his that blood points worked like a fuel tank where everything was fine until the tank was empty. Having hunger as something that creeps up and becomes increasingly worse makes for more interesting choices in how you use your powers.

I don't really get the urge to want to want make Vampire a game that only works for Trenchcoats and Katanas. If you like T&K, grab the superhero RPG of your choice, make a hero with vampire-themed powers and proficiency with a katana, give them a vulnerability to sunlight, and start playing.

Makes more sense to me than demanding all the horror aspects be removed for a horror game for you.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I don't really get the urge to want to want make Vampire a game that only works for Trenchcoats and Katanas.

More specifically, to make it a game that works for T&K in the first place. I really don't think it supports that playstyle, either mechanically or setting wise. This is one of those things where the distinction between Vampire as fiction and Vampire as a game really comes into stark contrast. If you have experience of it on the table, I really can't see anyone actually thinking it will do T&K out of the box. Neonates are actually pretty fragile. You'd need to heavily min max to make them competent in that kind of game. And even then an elder will go through them like a knife through butter.

If you like T&K, grab the superhero RPG of your choice, make a hero with vampire-themed powers and proficiency with a katana, give them a vulnerability to sunlight, and start playing.

That's certainly a possibility, although I'm not sure it's quite as straightforward as it's sometimes portrayed. It would need a level of system mastery to do that kind of tinkering; most superhero games have quite different power assumptions. Champions would do it, although I think that's a level of crunch most people attracted to Vampire would be uninterested in. I'd probably use Wild Talents because the freeform nature of powers would make creating vampires possible, but that's because it's a system I know well enough to create powers on the fly. It's also deadly enough that it would give a more "gritty" feel than many superhero games.

Makes more sense to me than demanding all the horror aspects be removed for a horror game for you.

What makes even less sense is that there are games out there that would do T&K perfectly, but there's no interest when you mention them.

I've suggested these before but both Nightbane and Nightlife are pretty much set up for kicking ass and taking names.

I've come to suspect this may be a gen x versus millenial difference. Gen Xers were used to either homebrewing or just finding more suitable games. Millenials are maybe more inclined to just assume that a game they like should cater to their playstyle out of the book.

 

[Baulderstone]

More specifically, to make it a game that works for T&K in the first place. I really don't think it supports that playstyle, either mechanically or setting wise. This is one of those things where the distinction between Vampire as fiction and Vampire as a game really comes into stark contrast. If you have experience of it on the table, I really can't see anyone actually thinking it will do T&K out of the box. Neonates are actually pretty fragile. You'd need to heavily min max to make them competent in that kind of game. And even then an elder will go through them like a knife through butter.

That thought entered my mind shortly after I posted. The classic storyteller system is pretty low on my choice of systems if I wanted to run a high-action combat game. Even without the constant, slapstick botching in earlier editions, it just isn't a system optimized for action.

That's certainly a possibility, although I'm not sure it's quite as straightforward as it's sometimes portrayed. It would need a level of system mastery to do that kind of tinkering; most superhero games have quite different power assumptions. Champions would do it, although I think that's a level of crunch most people attracted to Vampire would be uninterested in. I'd probably use Wild Talents because the freeform nature of powers would make creating vampires possible, but that's because it's a system I know well enough to create powers on the fly. It's also deadly enough that it would give a more "gritty" feel than many superhero games.

Wild Talents was going through my mind when I wrote my previous post. ORE is the dicepool system that Stolze came up with while freelancing on WoD games and wanting to make something better. That might make it a little smoother transition for Vampire players. At the very least, they can keep using all their d10s.

I'd also consider Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion, which even cites vampires as examples in both the Allergy and Dependency hindrances.

What makes even less sense is that there are games out there that would do T&K perfectly, but there's no interest when you mention them.

People on the Internet often prefer to complain than find a solution.

I've suggested these before but both Nightbane and Nightlife are pretty much set up for kicking ass and taking names.

I never played it, but I owned Nightlife, and that at least has the right attitude.

I've come to suspect this may be a gen x versus millenial difference. Gen Xers were used to either homebrewing or just finding more suitable games. Millenials are maybe more inclined to just assume that a game they like should cater to their playstyle out of the book.

I think its more that the remaining pool of Gen Xers that still game are the more hardcore ones that are willing to tinker. There were plenty of casual Gen X gamers with no interest in homebrewing back during the '80s boom. There are a good number of tinkering Millennials in the OSR and Indie scenes. There are also a lot more fresh gamers who may or may not stick around.

 

[tenbones]

Also, tenbones when I'm down there, would you want to go chicken fishing with me?

I've got a fishing rod and some hooks. Now all I'll need is some seed corn to use as bait and a 9mm pistol too.

If anyone asks, we'll tell 'em some Yankees came down and shot the chickens. The farmer will go to his grave thinking that. Trust me.

With a 9mm? This is .45/.308/12-gauge country. but that's a whole different thread of tribalism. This is TX, son. Fishing for chicken will end badly. But it sounds fun. The guy on the corner from my old house down the road, has a pasture full of Bison... that would be more fun to try. Likely we'd get shot doing it. Not a good look to go on our first Shadowrun to shoot chicken or bison and get killed...

 

[TristramEvans]

What makes even less sense is that there are games out there that would do T&K perfectly, but there's no interest when you mention them.

Well, not to put words in Doc's mouth, but the explanation for that as I understand it, is that for Doc Sammy the act of playing specifically Vampire: The Masquerade in a way that eskews "Personal Horror" in favour of Trenchcoats & Katanas is as an act of defiance against the goths and punks and fans of personal horror among White Wolf players and writers that DocSammy hates. From what I understand this specifically goes back to some White Wolf LARPers from Roanoke Virginia that Doc had a falling out with some time ago.

So, it's not really about actual roleplaying games, it's more of a..."personal stance as an act of rebellion"?

I believe he stated that if he were to just play another game, then the goth punks "win".

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Well, not to put words in Doc's mouth, but the explanation for that as I understand it, is that for Doc Sammy the act of playing specifically Vampire: The Masquerade in a way that eskews "Personal Horror" in favour of Trenchcoats & Katanas is as an act of defiance against the goths and punks and fans of personal horror among White Wolf players and writers that DocSammy hates. From what I understand this specifically goes back to some White Wolf LARPers from Roanoke Virginia that Doc had a falling out with some time ago.

So, it's not really about actual roleplaying games, it's more of a..."personal stance as an act of rebellion"?

I believe he stated that if he were to just play another game, then the goth punks "win".

I think they've already won if Sammy is living his life by what they think....

 

[TristramEvans]

I think they've already won if Sammy is living his life by what they think....

I think Doc Sammy's views on these things are likely to change rapidly once he actually starts gaming

 

[Trippy]

VtM V20 is the original setting, 20 yrs later, that's what I was getting at.

No it's not. Common misconception.

What V20 is, is a catalogue of every expansion via supplements that has been added to the game that they could squeeze into one book. That is, it has no focus in the way 1st edition had, while it is bursting at the seams with metaplot details and expanded powers lists and so on. This approach is an expansion of the idea built from Vampire Revised (3rd edition) and the tone and feel of V20 is much closer to VRev than the previous two editions. It's not like the V1 setting 20 years later - it's like 'here is a big catalogue of stuff, now help yourself to whatever'.

V5, with it's focussed approach and general tone and attitude, is closer to that of 1st edition than other editions. The layout and art may have a different style, but what they are trying to do with the game is more like it was in the beginning.

 

[Trippy]

To be fair to Sammy on this the whole Ravnos linked to the Roma thing was 2e, not 1e. The unplayable Path of Paradox was as well. I'm not sure what gap they really fill in 1e but the eyebleed stuff came later.

Ravnos were only introduced in the Players' Guide, so they barely made it into 1st edition at all. The whole "Path of…" replacements to Humanity came out well down the line of 2E supplements.

 

[tenbones]

Never a big fan of Ravnos myself.

Most players that I've encountered that claim they *really* enjoy them don't tend to last long when their ideas are put into context of my games... they play them like jackasses and don't account for the ruthless nature of Vampire politics that I leverage at all times to enforce their social-realities. Like people that play Malkavians as if they're merry-little-jokers that think they're going to prank the Brujah Primogen... and think there's no repercussions to be had because "I'm just playing my character".

I admit reading about the Hunger mechanics is making me very curious. I haven't run Vampire in years... but it's coming due. Just so many other things on the plate. And CPRed is coming...

 

[Mankcam]

No it's not. Common misconception.

What V20 is, is a catalogue of every expansion via supplements that has been added to the game that they could squeeze into one book. That is, it has no focus in the way 1st edition had, while it is bursting at the seams with metaplot details and expanded powers lists and so on. This approach is an expansion of the idea built from Vampire Revised (3rd edition) and the tone and feel of V20 is much closer to VRev than the previous two editions. It's not like the V1 setting 20 years later - it's like 'here is a big catalogue of stuff, now help yourself to whatever'.

V5, with it's focussed approach and general tone and attitude, is closer to that of 1st edition than other editions. The layout and art may have a different style, but what they are trying to do with the game is more like it was in the beginning.

Yeah I see your point of view. I guess I meant V20 is the VtM setting of the 90s, with the timeline progressed 20yrs. To reinforce this, the book has the same art direction as well. I do agree that it feels like a messy kitchen sink as it presents all the threads that was the bloated mess of the later VtM.

Although the art direction is different, I can definately see the approach to V5 is much more focused and streamlined, which is more in keeping with the setting as presented in V1, the original edition of VtM.

So yeah I am pretty much in agreeance with you Trippy. The more I read V5, the more I think I will go with it over V20, the rules mechanics changes are good and the setting itself is easier to grasp than V20.

My group's WoD heyday was all the first and second editions of the Classic WoD books anyway. A few of us bought the 3rd editions, although most of our games were more in keeping with the earlier editions, we just couldn't keep up with the metaplot that was heading to the Time Of Judgement etc.

Post 2000 was the nWoD reboot (now CoD), and whilst the rules were good, we just couldn't get into it beyond playing mortals in the core book - the new versions of Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc just didn't do it for us so we didn't continue.

I eagerly backed V20, but have only read the tip of the tome. We managed to play a game, it was great, but we ignored a lot of megaplot so it felt more like our earlier V1 and V2 games.

So I am pretty happy with what I'm reading with V5 now

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Never a big fan of Ravnos myself.

Most players that I've encountered that claim they *really* enjoy them don't tend to last long when their ideas are put into context of my games... they play them like jackasses and don't account for the ruthless nature of Vampire politics that I leverage at all times to enforce their social-realities. Like people that play Malkavians as if they're merry-little-jokers that think they're going to prank the Brujah Primogen... and think there's no repercussions to be had because "I'm just playing my character".

Likewise. On paper I accept Ravnos could work. In reality, I find the vast majority of players who request one are wanting to do wacky bullshit and use Chimestry for Wile E Coyote style hi jinks.

If I ever ran Vampire again (probably LARP) I'd also make Malkavian concepts officially "approval only".

 

[DarknessoftheEndless]

Probably in a significant minority here, but I started gaming on VtM. It was the first tabletop game I had ever played, and had instantly captured me. As I've grown up, it's continued to exert great influence, in that urban fantasy/urban horror is my favorite genre of any game or media.

All that said, I'm firmly on the side of 2ed NWoD (CoD). I have been the storyteller for a group that has been mainlining first and second edition CoD for over 10 years (with only little breaks for other games). It is, in my opinion, the most solid toolbox for creating a coherent, consistent, World of Darkness, across all splats. I would not go back. And despite picking up all of the V5 stuff I can, I can't see it providing anything meaningful enough to our particular group to warrant us moving on.

(edited for run-ons. Far too passionate about WoD.)

 

[FeralToaster]

Probably in a significant minority here, but I started gaming on VtM. It was the first tabletop game I had ever played, and had instantly captured me. As I've grown up, it's continued to exert great influence, in that urban fantasy/urban horror is my favorite genre of any game or media.

All that said, I'm firmly on the side of 2ed NWoD (CoD). I have been the storyteller for a group that has been mainlining first and second edition CoD for over 10 years (with only little breaks for other games). It is, in my opinion, the most solid toolbox for creating a coherent, consistent, World of Darkness, across all splats. I would not go back. And despite picking up all of the V5 stuff I can, I can't see it providing anything meaningful enough to our particular group to warrant us moving on.

(edited for run-ons. Far too passionate about WoD.)

Walks out from beyond the lone bush
First welcome to the Pub.
second, neat not enough people play 2ed NWoD (or CHroD which ever you prefer) I mostly just skimmed it for the lore and kitbashed what I like into Gurps but I did like how they used the whole Touchstone mechanics. Incidentally as a Requiem player whats your opinion on all the Bloodlines books (chosen, hidden, legendary and ancient)? I realize the question is a bit broad but I been waiting to have a discussion about them for months and this was the first opportunity.

 

[Baulderstone]

Probably in a significant minority here, but I started gaming on VtM. It was the first tabletop game I had ever played, and had instantly captured me. As I've grown up, it's continued to exert great influence, in that urban fantasy/urban horror is my favorite genre of any game or media.

All that said, I'm firmly on the side of 2ed NWoD (CoD). I have been the storyteller for a group that has been mainlining first and second edition CoD for over 10 years (with only little breaks for other games). It is, in my opinion, the most solid toolbox for creating a coherent, consistent, World of Darkness, across all splats. I would not go back. And despite picking up all of the V5 stuff I can, I can't see it providing anything meaningful enough to our particular group to warrant us moving on.

(edited for run-ons. Far too passionate about WoD.)

It's good to have another opinion in the mix.

 

[Doc Sammy]

Probably in a significant minority here, but I started gaming on VtM. It was the first tabletop game I had ever played, and had instantly captured me. As I've grown up, it's continued to exert great influence, in that urban fantasy/urban horror is my favorite genre of any game or media.

All that said, I'm firmly on the side of 2ed NWoD (CoD). I have been the storyteller for a group that has been mainlining first and second edition CoD for over 10 years (with only little breaks for other games). It is, in my opinion, the most solid toolbox for creating a coherent, consistent, World of Darkness, across all splats. I would not go back. And despite picking up all of the V5 stuff I can, I can't see it providing anything meaningful enough to our particular group to warrant us moving on.

(edited for run-ons. Far too passionate about WoD.)

New World of Darkness (AKA Chronicles of Darkness 1E) is awesome, although I don't like 2E.

I read both God Machine Chronicle and Requiem 2E on PDF and I didn't like the mechanical changes in it. Not really a fan of Tilts and Conditions, replacing Virtue and Vice with Mask and Dirge, and so on. I also do not like the setting changes in Requiem 2E such as the increased emphasis on the Strix, the rewritten takes on the Covenants, and the removal of the Fog of Ages,

(The less said about the 2E exclusives like Demon: The Descent and Beast: The Primordial, the better)

However, I do agree that Requiem is better than Masquerade overall. I started with Requiem 1E and had to switch to Masquerade since nobody in Roanoke liked Requiem.

I've always preferred IRL gaming to online gaming (which is why I've had difficulty committing to online games) but I don't get a lot of opportunities to play WoD IRL outside of conventions and I have even fewer opportunities to play New WoD.

Everyone around here that I like to game with are all about D&D 5E or Pathfinder. Haven't done much 5E due to working on a lot of real-life stuff lately, but I do enjoy the Pathfinder games a lot. I might need to get back to playing with my IRL gaming friends.

We have been discussing starting a new D&D game, but I still want to play Requiem (or better yet, run it)

 

[Trippy]

Likewise. On paper I accept Ravnos could work. In reality, I find the vast majority of players who request one are wanting to do wacky bullshit and use Chimestry for Wile E Coyote style hi jinks.

If I ever ran Vampire again (probably LARP) I'd also make Malkavian concepts officially "approval only".

Yep. They did try to make some adjustments to both these Clans. The 1st edition Malkavian Clanbook was written as a literal joke - it's quite funny, but it's wackiness is now considered to be a bit embarrassing. The concept that Malkavian's weakness is mental illness is better represented when you treat the various conditions seriously. I actually played one Malkavian character based upon the eponymous character played by Ralph Feinnes in David Cronenburg's Spider. It's this sort of character that can really maintain Vampire's atmosphere, I feel:



Then again, if we are talking cinematic inspiration, I've lost count of the number of players who think every Malkavian acts like The Joker or Harley Quinn.....

In the case of the Ravnos, the major objection is that it presents a negative stereotype of an ethnic group. I'd hope they can simply remove these links in any new version. Then again, I'm unlikely to use them in my games anyway.

 

[Baulderstone]

Yep. They did try to make some adjustments to both these Clans. The 1st edition Malkavian Clanbook was written as a literal joke - it's quite funny, but it's wackiness is now considered to be a bit embarrassing. The concept that Malkavian's weakness is mental illness is better represented when you treat the various conditions seriously.

It was originally treated seriously. I remember before Vampire was even released, there was a promotional brochure with information about the game and a short story. The main character was a Malkavian, and the insanity was presented as a genuine curse, not an excuse for hijinx. It wasn't until the clanbook that they ruined it.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Probably in a significant minority here, but I started gaming on VtM. It was the first tabletop game I had ever played, and had instantly captured me. As I've grown up, it's continued to exert great influence, in that urban fantasy/urban horror is my favorite genre of any game or media.

It's probably fair to say that for many of us it was our first foray into gaming as adults (or more specifically university students in my case). Apart from Sammy who's a mere slip of a lad and posts on here in between scrumping apples and cheeking the village bobby and whatever else it is young people do.

All that said, I'm firmly on the side of 2ed NWoD (CoD). I have been the storyteller for a group that has been mainlining first and second edition CoD for over 10 years (with only little breaks for other games). It is, in my opinion, the most solid toolbox for creating a coherent, consistent, World of Darkness, across all splats. I would not go back. And despite picking up all of the V5 stuff I can, I can't see it providing anything meaningful enough to our particular group to warrant us moving on.

I've read 2e, but I've never seen it in play, so I'd be very interested if you're willing to go into more detail on that. My impressions are:

Can't comment on things like touchstones without seeing how they work in play. I really liked some of the tinkering with things like clan flaws. The God Machine doesn't really click with me as a concept (it's too scifi for my urban horror tastes) but it seems easy enough to leave out.

Yep. They did try to make some adjustments to both these Clans. The 1st edition Malkavian Clanbook was written as a literal joke - it's quite funny, but it's wackiness is now considered to be a bit embarrassing.

To be fair to them, it's a fun read. Sadly that doesn't necessarily translate into something that works in play. Humour can be well implemented in games (Warhammer Fantasy) but it's very hard to do.

The concept that Malkavian's weakness is mental illness is better represented when you treat the various conditions seriously. I actually played one Malkavian character based upon the eponymous character played by Ralph Feinnes in David Cronenburg's Spider. It's this sort of character that can really maintain Vampire's atmosphere, I feel:



Then again, if we are talking cinematic inspiration, I've lost count of the number of players who think every Malkavian acts like The Joker or Harley Quinn.....

I think my favourite interpretation was actually the Malkovian bloodline in Requiem. It wasn't wacky, but it drew more from gothic literature madness than the real thing. (Realistically, very few mental ilnesses would be fun to play accurately. )

In the case of the Ravnos, the major objection is that it presents a negative stereotype of an ethnic group. I'd hope they can simply remove these links in any new version. Then again, I'm unlikely to use them in my games anyway.

Old White Wolf loved that stuff though. See also the Giovannni and the Assamites. Actually, the Assamites are a clan I think have definitely become more interesting as the lore develops, even if most players just want them as combat monsters.

I think the issue I have with the Ravnos is that if you remove that side of things I can't really see a concept I couldn't do just fine with a Gangrel or Brujah. Apart from Chimestry, which I think it's pretty clear I despise almost as much as Temporis. ;)

 

[Doc Sammy]

Yep. They did try to make some adjustments to both these Clans. The 1st edition Malkavian Clanbook was written as a literal joke - it's quite funny, but it's wackiness is now considered to be a bit embarrassing. The concept that Malkavian's weakness is mental illness is better represented when you treat the various conditions seriously. I actually played one Malkavian character based upon the eponymous character played by Ralph Feinnes in David Cronenburg's Spider. It's this sort of character that can really maintain Vampire's atmosphere, I feel:



Then again, if we are talking cinematic inspiration, I've lost count of the number of players who think every Malkavian acts like The Joker or Harley Quinn.....

In the case of the Ravnos, the major objection is that it presents a negative stereotype of an ethnic group. I'd hope they can simply remove these links in any new version. Then again, I'm unlikely to use them in my games anyway.

Now, the Ravnos being tied to ethnic stereotypes was mainly a 2E thing.

In 1E, they were mostly generic vagabonds and hobos (the Gangrel were the ones tied to the Romani people in 1E) while Revised, V20, and both iterations of Dark Ages focused more on their Indian roots.


Black Leaf

First off, I'd like to say "Hello Zoey"

I do admit that I respect you despite our differences in opinions, and while I was born in 1993, I do know a few people who played Vampire: The Masquerade 1E back in the day. My Dad (who was my first DM and who introduced me to RPG's) played a lot of Vampire 1E, as did my Mom, who played the game when she was pregnant with me.

Apparently, Vampire 1E and Ravenloft were both very popular among my Dad and his friends, and while the Goth stuff was played up, it wasn't really "woe is me" personal horror pretentiousness. They played it more like The Crow or a low-intensity version of the first Devil May Cry.

You know how the people in rural Southwest Virginia (and Orlando, Florida as my Dad was stationed there after he joined the Army right after graduation) made VTM 1E such a legendary game, don't ya?

They did it with a katana, a winch, a cinder block, winder block, and fifty-thousand winch blocks.

You got cockblock?

What you gonna winch?

 

[opaopajr]

With a 9mm? This is .45/.308/12-gauge country. but that's a whole different thread of tribalism. This is TX, son. Fishing for chicken will end badly. But it sounds fun. The guy on the corner from my old house down the road, has a pasture full of Bison... that would be more fun to try. Likely we'd get shot doing it. Not a good look to go on our first Shadowrun to shoot chicken or bison and get killed...

"Fishing for Bison" has Ska band name potential.