One D&D

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JAMUMU said:
What, sorry? I don't know what a Dragonborn is? Badummmmm tishhhhhh.
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A 4e and 5e race.

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Turkey Lurkie said:
And it wasn't. Many children like firearms even though they aren't designed or manufactured for children. It was a game aimed at people at least in their teens.
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Well lets see, a game where everyone plays make believe, can play elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc, sits around a table doing this while rolling dice, laughing and having a good time. Nope no appeal for kids there.

I would say that D&D is ideal for kids. Adults enjoy it too because while playing, they get to be kids again.
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
Well, 5e plays much closer to that than prior editions.
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Is your argument that 5E D&D is being primarily marketed to target pre-teen children? Because that’s flagrantly false. The game is primarily marketed towards an audience in their teens and twenties.

Yes there’s some ancillary D&D-related stuff targeted towards younger audience (a few D&D-branded storybooks and such) but it’s a very minor part of the whole - much moreso than, by way of comparison, how TSR marketed the game c. 1982-85 with the cartoon show, toy line, Endless Quest book series, and simplified starter set that was ubiquitous in toy stores.

TSR and WotC stepped away from that kind of stuff in the 90s-00s and marketed the game pretty much exclusively towards adults, and by doing so saw the average age of the fans grow older and older as fewer young people picked it up (D&D’s core fanbase c. 2010 was literally the same people who were their core fanbase in 1985, only they were 40 instead of 15, and there were fewer of them).

Yes, teenagers are playing D&D again, and WotC is paying a lot more attention to them than they are to the 40-50 year old grognards who have stuck with the brand since the 80s-90s, which is kind of painful if you’re one of that group (like I am) but it’s smart business. Sure I’d be happier if they were targeting those teenagers with a game more in line with what I would like to play, because the (relative) success of OSR-type games shows that at least some teenagers will embrace that style if they’re exposed to it (3 out of the 10 players in my current 1E AD&D game are teenagers) but that’s different than pretending that WotC has uniquely kiddified and eviscerated the game.

IMO their marketing strategy is sound; i just wish they had better (by which I mean more in line with my stylistic preferences) designers.
 
T. Foster said:
IMO their marketing strategy is sound; i just wish they had better (by which I mean more in line with my stylistic preferences) designers.
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Its ok. You don't have to be so diplomatic. The 6E designers are shit, and I applaud them for that. This will be the D&D edition that brings more people than ever to the OSR and better gaming.
 
robb said:
I think the overall message ended up being something like
* edition wars bad
<blah, blah, blah>
* 4e actually quite good
* buy my new 4e-inspired game
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And lo did he follow that video with a kickstarterbackerkit video for his game

 
T. Foster said:
IMO their marketing strategy is sound; i just wish they had better (by which I mean more in line with my stylistic preferences) designers.
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There are some similarities between this situation and the one facing American comic books. The older readers have been the reliable economic base of those for a long time. Marvel and DC have been chasing teens and twenty-somethings for decades now since they started to lose a lot of that readership sometime in the 80s. They were able to catch that market for a while during the collectors boom of the late 80s and 90s, but lost most of it again when that market collapsed. The teens and early 20s folks they were able to grab for that period didn't (for the most part) become the long-term buyers they had hoped would replace the old-timers.

D&D has had a bit of an artificial boom - or at least a longer heydey than new editions bring - partially due to factors that aren't a part of the key product. COVID isolation combined with the ability to play with live people online, a lot of free advertising from Strangers Things and Critical Role, and other things that had little to do with the core product helped to boost things significantly (much as the collector buy-sale frenzy did for comics). We are out of the worst of the COVID stuff now, though, Stranger Things only has another season or so to go, and Critical Role has moved on to another game. People who would normally be short-term casual players are likely to go back to their old patterns now, particularly since a lot of them can get their fix with Baldurs Gate 3. There is every possibility (not a certainty, of course) that the percentage of younger D&D players who end up becoming lifelong ones will not end up increasing in the long run. I don't think anyone can really say how that is going to play out yet.

In the meantime, just as Marvel and DC did, Hasbro/WOTC are increasingly alienating their older gamer base, at least when it comes to enticing them to buy new products and adopt newer editions. When the dust settles, they may find that they are worse off than before. There are certainly ways to avoid that, but I don't have much faith that they will make wise decisions in that regard. DC and Marvel certainly didn't, and continue to follow ineffective strategies.
 
T. Foster said:
IMO their marketing strategy is sound; i just wish they had better (by which I mean more in line with my stylistic preferences) designers.
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What can Hasbro/Wizards do that we, i.e. OSR, can't do for ourselves these days? Wouldn't it be better to encourage younger and older publishers working in the OSR to produce the stuff you like? At this point, there is a larger talent pool to draw from and the budget of individual projects can approach what Wizards can throw at their own.

The only thing I see that can't be done with this approach is something like I did with the Wilderlands of High Fantasy (not Majestic Wilderlands) Where I gave the original material a light edit and a new layout.
 
Lunar Ronin said:
I notice that it includes funding a virtual tabletop, as they don't want to support any of the other VTTs. Risky. Also very WotC-like.
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They are hinting at a 3rd party market in their space. Which is what I think WoTC's big misstep was, not embracing being a platform. I honestly don't have a lot of faith in it. It's a very successful crowdfunding project (my guess is they'll get $1.8-$2 mil.) but it's on the high side of normal for RPG campaigns with strong existing fanbases.
 
Exploderwizard said:
Well lets see, a game where everyone plays make believe, can play elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc, sits around a table doing this while rolling dice, laughing and having a good time. Nope no appeal for kids there.

I would say that D&D is ideal for kids. Adults enjoy it too because while playing, they get to be kids again.
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"aren't designed or manufactured for children"

Work on your English language comprehension. Anyone who read the rule books and has at leaast a HS edu knows that they weren't written to appeal to children
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
"aren't designed or manufactured for children"

Work on your English language comprehension. Anyone who read the rule books and has at leaast a HS edu knows that they weren't written to appeal to children
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Oh man, this is a fantastic direction to take. I can’t wait to see who you’re gonna be a dick to next.

Maybe you should back it off and not make sweeping statements about what things are obvious while also being condescending.
 
People getting this worked up over how their play pretend games used to be "mature" will never cease to make me laugh.

I honestly don't need tits and ass in my D&D, that feels way more edgy teen than adult anyway. And if I did want it I could add it myself.

And the demons never left.
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
"aren't designed or manufactured for children"

Work on your English language comprehension. Anyone who read the rule books and has at leaast a HS edu knows that they weren't written to appeal to children
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Turkey Lurkie said:
When you are setting the bar for being a dick. Own it dick
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relax
  1. First off, not everyone on here has English as a first language. Insulting their language skills is not a good way to lead an argument.
  2. Don't try to set a bar for being a dick. That's not what we do here. There are other places you can go on the net for that.
Take a walk for a while. Maybe take a break from the pub. Your posting history is extremely antagonistic. This is not the place for that kind of behavior.
 
The Mad Hatter said:
That name begs the question; is the GM gonna be called McDonald? If so..........

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h079530B6
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Turkey Lurkie said:
"aren't designed or manufactured for children"

Work on your English language comprehension. Anyone who read the rule books and has at leaast a HS edu knows that they weren't written to appeal to children
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Thats what I loved about the Moldvay set. I was a 10 year old boy and the rules didn't feel like they were written for kids even though it appealed to me as a kid. I was reading on a seventh grade level by the third grade so I had no trouble comprehending rules written for older kids & adults. I suspect that for a lot of kids it was the same. I think that if the game rules were written for children exclusively then it might not have held my interest.

PS- If you are going to insult someone's English skills, doing so with a misspelled word is kind of embarrassing.
 
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6th grade reading level (“for ages 12+”) is a sweet spot for a beginner-oriented rpg product, because that’s generally acknowledged as the start of the the “golden age” of rpgs (when your math & reading skills are sufficiently developed to be able to comprehend it but you can’t yet drive, don’t have a job, and probably aren’t interested in dating), sharp/bright kids 2-3 years younger can also pick it up, and older kids won’t feel condescended to the way they’re likely to reading something written at a 4th grade level (“for ages 10+”).

And then an “advanced” game can be written at something like a 10th grade reading level (“for ages 16+”). It’ll still mostly appeal to bright 12-14 year olds, but they’ll feel like they’re doing something “adult.” This was part of the cool cachet of AD&D (in the Gygax era) as well as stuff like RuneQuest and Traveller. When playing these games at age 13-14 it felt like you were doing something very sophisticated and adult-oriented, like you were a peer of college students.

Does anyone know what reading level the current D&D books are written at?
 
Exploderwizard said:
Thats what I loved about the Moldvay set. I was a 10 year old boy and the rules didn't feel like they were written for kids even though it appealed to me as a kid. I was reading on a seventh grade level by the third grade so I had no trouble comprehending rules written for older kids & adults. I suspect that for a lot of kids it was the same. I think that if the game rules were written for children exclusively then it might not have held my interest.

PS- If you are going to insult someone's English skills, doing so with a misspelled word is kind of embarrassing.
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Yes, I know what that is like. I was taken out of 6th grade once the school district found out I was teaching class instead of being a student. Was sent to study marine biology at UC for 2 years. But, I missed persons my own age and went to high school instead.

I don't bother with being neat when typing on a forum. I am not embarrassed at all by making a spelling mistake. It is not significant nor does it reflect on the logic of the stance. It DOES however make for good straw man fodder buy those with that predilection.
 
I don't know the answer to that.
But, I just wanted to say...I never felt that AD&D was Nerdy or Geeky. I always looked at the game as something intellectual.
 
I wonder what the reading level of 1st ed AD&D book is on a reading level. If you try to read it cover to cover...it's not an easy read.
 
SCLynch said:
I don't know the answer to that.
But, I just wanted to say...I never felt that AD&D was Nerdy or Geeky. I always looked at the game as something intellectual.
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Really? It was certainly something that was seen as nerdy when I was in school, but then again a lot of more intellectual pursuits were viewed that way.
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
I don't bother with being neat when typing on a forum. I am not embarrassed at all by making a spelling mistake. It is not significant nor does it reflect on the logic of the stance. It DOES however make for good straw man fodder buy those with that predilection.
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However, you arguing in bad faith is significant to the logic of the stance. And you are actively ignoring any evidence against your position. For example you are rejecting your own premise.
T. Foster said:
Is your argument that 5E D&D is being primarily marketed to target pre-teen children?
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Turkey Lurkie said:
No, which is why I didn't say that. Is your argument that 5e was designed for cats and dogs to play?
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All of this happened after you said:
Turkey Lurkie said:
& a children's oriented game (5th) is D&D in name only.
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If you aren't saying 5th edition is for children I would recommend you work on your English language comprehension because even a child knows you said it was. Also, your favorite elfgame is still for children :smile:.
 
"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence.

And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development.

When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly.

When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - CS Lewis
 
TristramEvans said:
"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence.

And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development.

When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly.

When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - CS Lewis
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Man, I just turned 54 and you know what? I don't wanna grow up I'm a Toys R Us kid! The magic of rpgs is that they let adults be kids for a while.
 
TristramEvans said:
"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence.

And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development.

When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly.

When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - CS Lewis
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Love that quote.
 
SCLynch said:
I wonder what the reading level of 1st ed AD&D book is on a reading level. If you try to read it cover to cover...it's not an easy read.
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It was not an easy read when I first picked it up age ~12. I understood enough of it to play.

I last read the AD&D DMs Guide at ~50, and still not an easy read. High Gygaxian became a trope (or what today might be called a meme) for a reason.
 
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