Mod+ Ai generated content in RPGs

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Amidsts the howling winds and the bechamel-topped glades of Tagliatelle Tundra, a cadre from the Order of the Mageroni Cheese struggle to keep balance, fighting those who would sully the one true meal with various meats, vegetables and strange truffley bits.
 
Patchwork Dragon said:
The algorithms suggest things for me to watch, read and listen to. But I can easily choose to ignore them.
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Urdlen's best boy said:
There's something to be said about algo promotion and addictive behaviours but that's not really ruling and only applies to people when passively consumming media/doomscrolling. You still chose what you type in and what you watch or not.
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Turkey Lurkie said:
No, I pick what I watch, read and listen to. No algorithm does it for me.
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It doesn't matter what the individual chooses, it matters what the masses choose because that dictates what gets made: hence endless movie sequels and Taylor Swift managing to stay on top way past the expected expiration date.
For the long version search "Stuck Culture" or simply consider the fashion trends of the 80's vs. 90's compared to late 2000's vs now.
 
robertsconley said:
While some boundaries need to be hashed out, the overall situation is not as legally muddled as people think it is. The problem to watch out for is that a legal overreaction impacts the normal world of human created copyrighted work. For example, the standards between ideas and expression become muddled in an overzealous effort to control AI Generative Models.

My prediction is that where AI companies will run into trouble is for the act of copying troves of pirated works for training data. While understandable when the research was in the hands of small university research teams, it was stupid not to start out with a clean sheet when major investment started. The models themselves will not be found infringing, but any company that uses one of these troves will be on the hook.

After this, what will happen will be two things.

1) A bunch of models trained only in the public domain will be developed.
2) Corporations will invest in licenses and work for hire and will train their models on the public domain and those works.

Unfortunately the best AI models will result from #2. Because of the stupidity of the length of US copyright, the best AI Models will become the province of those with the deepest pockets.

However, it may turn out that once the technology and its limitations are better understood, crowd-sourcing may be able to be used to make quality models that can compete with corporate-funded models. But that won't come about until people are far more comfortable with the technology than they are now.
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More people should listen to robertsconley robertsconley...:thumbsup:

robertsconley said:
Thus, on the first day of the twenty-fourth year of the new century, God said

Behold, the Olive Gardens of the Majestic Pasta Realms.

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Oh, man...now I'm envisioning an Italian-Greek setting, In Spaaaaace(TM), with heroes, "gods and goddesses" akin to those in Lord of the Light, and with gengineered pasta-producing plants...:angel:

Someone should make it, I say:thumbsup:!
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
Even more reason to not "fear the A.I. Reaper". Excellent points.
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The thing is it is effective for a trifecta of purposes :
-Social media spam (it's effectively spamware)
-Defrauding investors with wild claims (propped up by perceived social media success)
-Serving as a bargaining chip for compagnies to lowball artists ("do it for less than you want, or else")

If not making spam, there are only a handful of ultra-niche professional applications where it's faster and does what you want - most of them in 3D animation and videogames, like placing a lot of grass and trees fast. The problem is, most of what it is used for is spam and that already has deleterious effects on every artists that uses social media/portfolio/sale platforms. It will also lead to less quality for consummers, due to the spam and execs convinced they should jump on that ship - which they will do even if the artists tell them it's useless. And the chilling effect works too, just look at this thread started by a small artist that was scared/enticed by the "use AI... or else...". It's a mugger with a fake gun, but it's looking real enough that a lot of people will be scared into compliance. And then there's the commercial spam - like fake fan sites with fake people publishing fake texts with fake images to farm clicks, and that's only the start. Soon you'll have ai scam calls and all kinds of things to defraud people or cheat the system.

Eventually it'll burst like other tech bubbles but it is causing issues right now. People will lose their livelyhoods, others will be intimidated, and it will make art less accessible. It's already the case, and it's going to be worse for a while, until people stop accepting the tojan horses that it is AI and it is art, and recognize it as spam, platforms start to ban it or new ones are created where it's banned, etc.
 
Urdlen's best boy said:
Soon you'll have ai scam calls and all kinds of things to defraud people or cheat the system.
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Soon? We had that last month, man:grin:!

It's a tool. What we do with it is up to us, and so are the results:thumbsup:.

Just like any other technology we've invented can be used for our betterment, or to knock us all down a peg. It's up to us, and so are the results, and the more we fear a particular piece of tech, the less likely we are to use it responsibly:shade:!
 
Urdlen's best boy said:
The thing is it is effective for a trifecta of purposes :
-Social media spam (it's effectively spamware)
-Defrauding investors with wild claims (propped up by perceived social media success)
-Serving as a bargaining chip for compagnies to lowball artists ("do it for less than you want, or else")

If not making spam, there are only a handful of ultra-niche professional applications where it's faster and does what you want - most of them in 3D animation and videogames, like placing a lot of grass and trees fast. The problem is, most of what it is used for is spam and that already has deleterious effects on every artists that uses social media/portfolio/sale platforms. It will also lead to less quality for consummers, due to the spam and execs convinced they should jump on that ship - which they will do even if the artists tell them it's useless. And the chilling effect works too, just look at this thread started by a small artist that was scared/enticed by the "use AI... or else...". It's a mugger with a fake gun, but it's looking real enough that a lot of people will be scared into compliance. And then there's the commercial spam - like fake fan sites with fake people publishing fake texts with fake images to farm clicks, and that's only the start. Soon you'll have ai scam calls and all kinds of things to defraud people or cheat the system.

Eventually it'll burst like other tech bubbles but it is causing issues right now. People will lose their livelyhoods, others will be intimidated, and it will make art less accessible. It's already the case, and it's going to be worse for a while, until people stop accepting the tojan horses that it is AI and it is art, and recognize it as spam, platforms start to ban it or new ones are created where it's banned, etc.
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Naw, the market is always right. Consumers will get what they are willing to pay. NO different than today. This is why it's important to have a real edu in subjects like econ. It keeps one from running around like chicken little. (my ID is a play on that whole thing). Like mass production, it didn't make for worse auto's it made for MORE high quality auto's a better price. Just chill and KNOW that REAL artists will in no way be harmed. Neither will the consumer.
 
AsenRG said:
Soon? We had that last month, man:grin:!

It's a tool. What we do with it is up to us, and so are the results:thumbsup:.

Just like any other technology we've invented can be used for our betterment, or to knock us all down a peg. It's up to us, and so are the results, and the more we fear a particular piece of tech, the less likely we are to use it responsibly:shade:
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Depends on the tech. Does Ai has positive uses? Funny memes I guess. On the other hand 99% of it's actual use is spam, scams and slop. And threatening people who don't want to accept it.

The screw-powered head crusher is also a technology for exemple. Should I drop whatever I'm doing to try and find it positive uses (curiosity item?) or can I just say it's a horrible device based on it's form, use and function?
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Turkey Lurkie said:
Naw, the market is always right. Consumers will get what they are willing to pay. NO different than today. This is why it's important to have a real edu in subjects like econ. It keeps one from running around like chicken little. (my ID is a play on that whole thing). Like mass production, it didn't make for worse auto's it made for MORE high quality auto's a better price. Just chill and KNOW that REAL artists will in no way be harmed. Neither will the consumer.
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Respectfully disagree. I think it will self-regulate, but that takes time when all the major websites used by artists for portfolio, sales, visibility are overrun with spam or outright use/sell the images hosted for "AI" training. That's already leading to less opportunities and more scams, as well as artists having to leave websites to reject the blackmail. Established artists do alright, but small artists, like any small compagnies can get hit hard by this sort of perturbations.

Imagine the PUB is bought by Pornhub and now everybody can spam porn in every thread. Sure, eventually you'll have another good place to discuss RPGs, but in the meantime it'd be pretty annoying and most PUBers don't even relie on it professionally.
 
Urdlen's best boy said:
On the other hand 99% of it's actual use is spam, scams and slop.
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Did you know that 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot? I just made that number up, as I'm sure the 99% was done.

Can we dispense with hyperbole? As someone adjacent to that specialization, I can say with full confidence that number is bullshit.
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
Naw, the market is always right. Consumers will get what they are willing to pay. NO different than today. This is why it's important to have a real edu in subjects like econ. It keeps one from running around like chicken little. (my ID is a play on that whole thing). Like mass production, it didn't make for worse auto's it made for MORE high quality auto's a better price. Just chill and KNOW that REAL artists will in no way be harmed. Neither will the consumer.
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No the market isn't always "right", especially if said market is a monopoly.
Mass production doesn't always mean better/higher quality stuff being made. A lot of times it just means that something can be produced in large quantities fast. For example, a lot of factory produced food is pure crap.
Another example, we could make lightbulbs that lasts for twenty years if we wanted too. Would some consumers be willing to pay for such lightbulbs probably yes, but no one makes them so they aren't given the choice too.
I agree that education is important, but that requires that people actually want to learn. I've met quite a lot of people in my life, who just doesn't give a shit.
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
That's an axiom. "The market is always right".
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It's not. "A free market will self regulate to a nominal price based on supply and demand" is an axiom of the Friedman Economic Theory. An axiom cannot be created from a moral supposition (the declaration that something is "right" or ethically correct).
 
Urdlen's best boy said:
Depends on the tech. Does Ai has positive uses? Funny memes I guess. On the other hand 99% of it's actual use is spam, scams and slop. And threatening people who don't want to accept it.

The screw-powered head crusher is also a technology for exemple. Should I drop whatever I'm doing to try and find it positive uses (curiosity item?) or can I just say it's a horrible device based on it's form, use and function?
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Dude, if you have to compare a program to a torturous execution device to make your point, you've just invented a way to get a Godwin loss without mentioning Hitler...:grin:

Turkey Lurkie said:
You don't understand the phrase. Sorry. It has nothing to do with the type of "market". No matter the type, the market IS always right. It's an Econ thing. ;
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No, he does, but you two are just arguing from two different meanings of "right". Like how a "mole" isn't the same thing to a zoologist and a spy, to use an oft-quoted example.
Until you get to the same page of the dictionary, there's no point in arguing:thumbsup:.
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
That's an axiom. "The market is always right". That's the equivalent of looking at a horse and saying you disagree that it is a horse. This highlights why education is SO important. In its absence you get panic, decision making that is nutty and other terrible consequences.
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Huh?
What do you even mean by "right?" and what's the context you're talking about?
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
That's an axiom. "The market is always right". That's the equivalent of looking at a horse and saying you disagree that it is a horse. This highlights why education is SO important. In its absence you get panic, decision making that is nutty and other terrible consequences.
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It's the efficient market hypothesis, a version of it turned into an axiom by stock market investors like Jesse Livermore. As Tristram pointed out it's academic economics equivalent is Friedman's axiom, which only pertains to price. I'll add nearly all market economists, even the most austrian, recognize that there are times and contexts where choices can be biaised at least temporarily - obscurement of information, fraud, monopoly, government intervention, etc. No economist denies the happening of economic crisis. So it's more of a general rule rather than a specific prediction about specific markets in specific circumstances.

The equivalence would me more "horses are always right", and me saying "sometimes this horse freaks out over nothing tho".
 
AsenRG said:
Dude, if you have to compare a program to a torturous execution device to make your point, you've just invented a way to get a Godwin loss without mentioning Hitler...:grin:
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"tech is always neutral"
"no it's not here's an exemple"
"nooooo Godwin Hitler you lose"

Way to get a Wingod loss and an actual Godwin loss at the same time :shade:
 
The non-AGI models we have today are just tools, and a tool is almost by definition a multiplier. We see so much slop because there are tons of people putting zero effort into the input. It doesn't mean it can't be used well. It can generate initial concepts, it can add texture and "fluff" to a work, or act as a first-pass editor. The potential for AI to become an equalizer that lets one guy in his bedroom compete with large teams is there.
 
Skarg said:
Huh?
What do you even mean by "right?" and what's the context you're talking about?
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About the market of course. No one here had this discussion in econ class with their prof.??????
 
Turkey Lurkie said:
About the market of course. No one here had this discussion in econ class with their prof.??????
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I tend to think of economic theory as designed to excuse patterns of exploitative behavior that's driving us towards an unsustainable hell planet.

And also, responsible for some of the most over-investment of human attention on some of the least attention-worthy and most shallow, empty, derivative games and fiction ever created.

(My professors tended to be in literature, history, science, psychology, and humanities, not econ.)
 
I decided to make my own images of older women adventures with ai.

These are with the free version of midjourney, which lets you do 10 prompts a day. Overall, I am pretty satisfied with it though I didn't like all pictures it made.

My favorites:

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Some of the runners up for older women adventures:

The weapons here are a bit odd but overall I like the pictures.

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This next set had some weird stuff going on with the extra bears. I had specified "a pet bear." I am amused by the idea of still wearing the skimpy outfit with the figure she has. Body positivity!


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Old ladies with nipple armor.

The woman "with a sword." She wasn't wearing or carrying it. The sword was just there. I realized that "with a sword" is not a good prompt.

One that ignored part of my prompt and did a young looking woman.
 
Patchwork Dragon said:
Some of the runners up for older women adventures:

The weapons here are a bit odd but overall I like the pictures.

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This next set had some weird stuff going on with the extra bears. I had specified "a pet bear." I am amused by the idea of still wearing the skimpy outfit with the figure she has. Body positivity!


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Pictures not shown:

Old ladies with nipple armor.

The woman "with a sword." She wasn't wearing or carrying it. The sword was just there. I realized that "with a sword" is not a good prompt.

One that ignored part of my prompt and did a young looking woman.
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Those two gals in bikini are the best thing I've yet seen from an AI. It's both bizarre and awesome. And I am not only talking about the fact that they wear a "bikini leather armor", but all these stupid details like the teddy bear in the crotch or an eye in the navel...I love it.
 
I have a few more thoughts after playing around with ai art a little. Most of the time, faces are pretty good, but hands are still an issue. Wrong number of fingers, fingers that are too long or too short, hands that just look off. Holding an item is tricky too, with items in open hands, items on finger tips, hands that have a weird grip on an item.

An important part of learning is having someone till you when you are doing it wrong. That way you can correct your mistakes. But if there isn't a way to tell the ai that it messed up on the hands, it isn't going to get better.

On a lighter note, I have started getting animal earned women. A woman with a fox tends to turn up a fox earned woman with a fox.
 
Yuup. Some recently tuned models on NightCafe are more often getting less weird hands and extra eyes etc, but it's still a fundamental issue that these are not images being drawn by something that really understands or has any real concept of what it is drawing, it doesn't really understand anatomy or posture, let alone how to hold a hand weapon, or what an appropriate weapon is, etc.
 
Skarg said:
Yuup. Some recently tuned models on NightCafe are more often getting less weird hands and extra eyes etc, but it's still a fundamental issue that these are not images being drawn by something that really understands or has any real concept of what it is drawing, it doesn't really understand anatomy or posture, let alone how to hold a hand weapon, or what an appropriate weapon is, etc.
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To be fair, neither do a lot of human artists...:tongue:
 
I might give Night Cafe another try.

My primary focus right now is showing older women as adventurers. My initial attempts at Night Cafe gave me young women with flowing white hair when I asked for older women.

Other places I have dabbled on are better at giving me women who look old or middle age. But about 1 in 10 requests give me someone young looking. So I may not have tried enough times at Night Cafe to give it a fair shot.

It feels good to me when I see pictures of women who look my age or older as adventurers.
 
I've generated some older women on Night Cafe. It does tend to short circuit from "woman" or "beautiful" etc to young thin flawless model women, and there are some of their newer presets are worse at that.

e.g. This is what their Dreamshaper v8 gave for just the prompt "Ugh":
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And it gave red-headed young women revealing cleavage for "wielding the battleaxe of fire".
Dreamshaper v8 dreams of pretty young women by default.

Their Stable Diffusion 1.5 remains better, and it helps if you give an artist. I have received some older women without even asking, in SD 1.5 with "by [artist name]".
 
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