Daggerheart

[Cross Planes]

I'm always confused when people say things like this, because as a board game fanatic, narrative rpgs feel absolutely nothing like board games.

Board games have exact rules on what happens based on exact actions you are allowed to take.

Narrative RPGs are much much much more loose. They have specific rules, but when those rules apply are up to the GM and players. What exactly happens afterwards is up to the GM and players. Things like what is a light consequence is entirely up to player interpretation. When does a "broken leg" consequence apply to a roll, that to is up to player interpretation. Can a player fly across a chasm? Up to player interpretation based on the fiction of the characters.

Board games, at least ones that aren't designed badly, leave zero up to interpretation. There are no judgment calls.

D&D4e's combat is way more like a board game than any narrative game I've played, and even it had stuff that could be up to interpretation (though the stuff that was was often ignored). Hell, D&D 3.x feels more like a board game than any narrative game I've played.

This isn't to say you have to like it (I actually don't like PbtA games for the most part), it's just such a wild comparison to me.

I respect your opinion but IMO PbtA codifies the actions of the GM in a way that make me feel hampered and reminds me of Decent, as I mentioned. In a lot of ways I find PbtA & FATE far too mechanically heavy to fit my idea of a "narrative RPG". I'm glad to agree to disagree though.

 

[Ladybird]

I respect your opinion but IMO PbtA codifies the actions of the GM in a way that make me feel hampered and reminds me of Decent, as I mentioned. In a lot of ways I find PbtA & FATE far too mechanically heavy to fit my idea of a "narrative RPG". I'm glad to agree to disagree though.

We had this discussion recently, and this is still as much of a misreading now as it was then.

 

[Cross Planes]

We had this discussion recently, and this is still as much of a misreading now as it was then.

I posted in that thread too. On a foundational level PbtA games are simply not for me and it's because the mechanics don't interface with how I GM at all. My views do change as I hated AD&D back in the day and now I'd be glad to play it.

I am at a point where I like fairly traditional mechanics and a part of that was a reaction to my Story Games phase.

 

[Malckuss]

I'm always confused when people say things like this, because as a board game fanatic, narrative rpgs feel absolutely nothing like board games.

Board games have exact rules on what happens based on exact actions you are allowed to take.

Narrative RPGs are much much much more loose. They have specific rules, but when those rules apply are up to the GM and players. What exactly happens afterwards is up to the GM and players. Things like what is a light consequence is entirely up to player interpretation. When does a "broken leg" consequence apply to a roll, that to is up to player interpretation. Can a player fly across a chasm? Up to player interpretation based on the fiction of the characters.

Board games, at least ones that aren't designed badly, leave zero up to interpretation. There are no judgment calls.

D&D4e's combat is way more like a board game than any narrative game I've played, and even it had stuff that could be up to interpretation (though the stuff that was was often ignored). Hell, D&D 3.x feels more like a board game than any narrative game I've played.

This isn't to say you have to like it (I actually don't like PbtA games for the most part), it's just such a wild comparison to me.

Um...except PbtA games do codify your moves and regulate what you can do and when. Everything has triggers and moves.

Truly narrative games have rules which give mechanical weight to the actions you want to take and the freedom to embellish as you choose.

I respect your opinion but IMO PbtA codifies the actions of the GM in a way that make me feel hampered and reminds me of Decent, as I mentioned. In a lot of ways I find PbtA & FATE far too mechanically heavy to fit my idea of a "narrative RPG". I'm glad to agree to disagree though.

Exactly. PbtA games coddle you and hold your hand. Great if you are a novice GM but otherwise a straight jacket.

Edited for clarity/correcting autocorrect.

 

[Voros]

Can we let this boring non-debate drop please? Don't need to hear it all again, thanks.

 

[JAMUMU]

PbtA, by which I really mean the first game, codifies GMing in a way that both reminds the GM of their duty to the players and the game, while reminding the GM of their role in the social event taking place across the table. Some see this as a madman's waistcoat, restricting their hands from doing anything other than scratching their kidneys. Others see it as a list of best practises that bring shine, sheen and depth to the RPG experience.

Either way, I could beat you at Street Fighter II.

 

[AsenRG]

Either way, I could beat you at Street Fighter II.

Bring it on! Not that I've played SF2 much, but I'll do my best...


Yes, I'm focusing on the important part of your post!

 

[AsenRG]

I mean someone *could* write a best-selling fantasy series, make a blockbuster movie about it, make blockbuster video games about it, and then push an RPG that’s actually good into every FLGS and dethrone D&D. You’d spend more than a decade doing this, every step requires different skillset groups and would need to managed by a single rich mofo.

Until then, WotC is going to create it’s own killer, as it did with Pathfinder.

Well, Daggerheart is kinda close to it, if we count Critical Role as "blockbuster".

As are the Witcher, and A Song of Ice and Fire!

 

[EmperorNorton]

Ok but Street Fighter II, Street Fighter II Champion Edition, Street Fighter II Turbo, Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Hyper Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, or Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers?

 

[Endless Flight]

I mean someone *could* write a best-selling fantasy series, make a blockbuster movie about it, make blockbuster video games about it, and then push an RPG that’s actually good into every FLGS and dethrone D&D. You’d spend more than a decade doing this, every step requires different skillset groups and would need to managed by a single rich mofo.

Until then, WotC is going to create it’s own killer, as it did with Pathfinder.

Harry Potter is the only thing that could have possibly come close, maybe even dethroned D&D for a year or two. It’s really stupid though. JK Rowling is fine selling Harry Potter Hershey Kisses but for some reason, she has a problem with a Harry Potter RPG. Something doesn’t jive.

 

[AsenRG]

Ok but Street Fighter II, Street Fighter II Champion Edition, Street Fighter II Turbo, Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Hyper Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, or Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers?

...if you managed to name them without looking them up, I want to see you two playing that fight!

 

[Malckuss]

Ok but Street Fighter II, Street Fighter II Champion Edition, Street Fighter II Turbo, Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Hyper Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, or Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers?

Also could have been referring to White Wolf's line of Street Fighter RPG line. I had all of the books except for the adventure. I would use S.M.Arts RPG, instead.

 

[Cross Planes]

Either way, I could beat you at Street Fighter II.

I dunno I got pretty good with that spin kick that keeps knocking my opponent down LOL

I hope for the best from Daggerheart. CR has been central to demystifying RPGs and since WotC has started offering its print bundles with 2 weeks of early access to DnD Beyond its been affecting my sales at my stores. Having another option is always nice especially if they choose not to compete with local game stores.

 

[CRKrueger]

Ok but Street Fighter II, Street Fighter II Champion Edition, Street Fighter II Turbo, Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Hyper Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, or Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers?

Yes

 

[Ladybird]

Darkstalkers was better.

 

[CRKrueger]

Darkstalkers was better.

 

[Malckuss]

I don't know about better, but I loved Darkstalkers. But my jam was Samurai Showdown.

 

[Dr Jack]

Interesting interview with the creator which gives a good impression of what kind of game it is:

 

[Malckuss]

Interesting interview with the creator which gives a good impression of what kind of game it is:

Thanks for the link, Dr. Jack.

 

[UnplayedRanger]

Public play testing begins: March 12th

The home of the Daggerheart Open Beta Playtest will be the newly-minted daggerheart.com website, where you'll find information about the game, periodically-updated playtest materials, and the surveys where you can tell us all about your experiences.

We're excited to offer a few different ways to participate in this playtest:

• Download (and print, if you like) PDF materials from the Daggerheart website
• Visit one of our two digital platform partners for their versions of the materials: Demiplane (character creator and Nexus) and DriveThruRPG (playtest material PDFs)

 

[Malckuss]

I'm excited.

 

[LikelyArrow]

Any number of d12's is Perfection.

By any chance have you looked at Dominion Rules (Wayback link in case your browser complains about no HTTPS)? They've been doing a d12-based system for over 20 years now, which I think makes them one of the earliest.

 

[UnplayedRanger]

Public playtest is live. Requires an email address.

 

[Cendovas]

Public playtest is live. Requires an email address.

It's also on DrivethruRPG for those who want to avoid marketing mail.

 

[Silverlion]

Sighs, looks too much like D&D with a slightly different system. I kind of expected that but I had some hope for it going a bit wider afield.

 

[AsenRG]

Sighs, looks too much like D&D with a slightly different system. I kind of expected that but I had some hope for it going a bit wider afield.

Well, Imma skip.

 

[sharps54]

Well, Imma skip.

What?! I figured you were a shoe in when I read it was close to D&D

 

[Malckuss]

I'm still interested. It's a novel take on a D&D-a-like. It was always going to be similar to D&D as it was meant to replace D&D5E for Critical Role and be familiar to their fan base.

 

[UnplayedRanger]

Sighs, looks too much like D&D with a slightly different system. I kind of expected that but I had some hope for it going a bit wider afield.

Well, Imma skip.

It’s been advertised as a heroic fantasy game since day 1.

 

[AsenRG]

It’s been advertised as a heroic fantasy game since day 1.

Yes, but this doesn't necessitate D&D mechanics, as a host of games easily demonstrate. Or am I misunderstanding Silverlion 's post?


(I mean, the campaign I started - kinda without realizing it - is using heroic fantasy as a default, being set in the World of Orb, so at the moment I'm definitely in the market for heroic fantasy...for inspirational reasons if nothing else!
But my campaign is also powered by Mythras Classic Fantasy, so the mechanics aren't exactly similar, and that's a feature, not a bug...)

What?! I figured you were a shoe in when I read it was close to D&D

I guess I like to surprise people?

 

[UnplayedRanger]

Yes, but this doesn't necessitate D&D mechanics, as a host of games easily demonstrate. Or am I misunderstanding Silverlion 's post?


(I mean, the campaign I started - kinda without realizing it - is using heroic fantasy as a default, being set in the World of Orb, so at the moment I'm definitely in the market for heroic fantasy...for inspirational reasons if nothing else!
But my campaign is also powered by Mythras Classic Fantasy, so the mechanics aren't exactly similar, and that's a feature, not a bug...)


I guess I like to surprise people?

Define DND mechanics? It uses a different rule system entirely.

 

[AsenRG]

Define DND mechanics? It uses a different rule system entirely.

...then I've misunderstood the post I quoted, and am back in the market for inspiration! Thank you for pointing that factoid out!

To clarify, I have several D&D-alike rulesets, including some in hardcopy. I have decided not to purchase any more of those this year*, and to take my inspiration for my heroic fantasy campaign from games that bother to at least change the system. So Spellcraft & Swordplay is a go, despite being OSR, and so is the d100 Age of Shadow (but I have both of these already...), while Fantastic Heroes and Witchery doesn't fit the first** criterion.


*A Year Without D20 System was part of my New Year Resolutions!
**Yes, there are other criteria before deciding on a purchase, of course. I can't afford it otherwise...

 

[Silverlion]

Define DND mechanics? It uses a different rule system entirely.

Classes are expies for D&D ones, Race are expies for D&D ones, and how character generation is handled is similar enough. I mean everything it does can be done in 5E D&D. Down to having Paladin and Bard classes.

It's nothing original (compared to things like Shadow of the Demon Lord, Numenara, etc.) One CAN do heroic fantasy without using D&D's format and style.

 

[remial]

Is there a game that uses d100000? I mean, there was a d10000 table in Fates Worse Than Death RPG, but I can't think of even a d1000 mechanic!

once upon a time TBP started a series of John Wick articles where he was going to make an "official" rerelease of Warhamster (from the Dork Tower comics) that used a d1000
in addition to the d1000 being a "beat the target number," each d10 meant something like in combat one was how hard you hit, one was where you hit, the third was how much damage you did to the armor. or something like that. I don't remember exactly what it was, and because it is Wick and big purple, I really don't care that much.

 

[remial]

Public playtest is live. Requires an email address.

you can enter a burner email address. I tend to go with bob@bob.com
I like to think some guy is losing his mind over all the spam I have sent his way over the years

 

[AsenRG]

you can enter a burner email address. I tend to go with bob@bob.com
I like to think some guy is losing his mind over all the spam I have sent his way over the years

"So-called 'RPG products' again? I ain't buying any rocket-propelled grenades, no matter what fancy names like Daggerheart they stick on them...or acronym soup like D&D! What does that even mean, Defense & Destruction?!?"

once upon a time TBP started a series of John Wick articles where he was going to make an "official" rerelease of Warhamster (from the Dork Tower comics) that used a d1000
in addition to the d1000 being a "beat the target number," each d10 meant something like in combat one was how hard you hit, one was where you hit, the third was how much damage you did to the armor. or something like that. I don't remember exactly what it was, and because it is Wick and big purple, I really don't care that much.

That's actually a quite decent idea!

 

[Mankcam]

I thought I read that Daggerheart was gonna be just as much like PbtA as it was D&D.
Or am I'm confusing this with their other game, Candela Obscura?

(I thought Critical Role were gonna go with one in-house system for all their games now)

 

[AsenRG]

I thought I read that Daggerheart was gonna be just as much like PbtA as it was D&D.

Or am I'm confusing this with their other game, Candela Obscura?

(I thought Critical Role were gonna go with one in-house system for all their games now)

I'm reasonably sure I've read that about Candela Obscura, though a) I might be wrong and b) it might be a hyperbolic assessment!

 

[Malckuss]

Define DND mechanics? It uses a different rule system entirely.

Precisely. It does have some similarities, but it is also different. It has similar tropes.

...then I've misunderstood the post I quoted, and am back in the market for inspiration! Thank you for pointing that factoid out!

To clarify, I have several D&D-alike rulesets, including some in hardcopy. I have decided not to purchase any more of those this year*, and to take my inspiration for my heroic fantasy campaign from games that bother to at least change the system. So Spellcraft & Swordplay is a go, despite being OSR, and so is the d100 Age of Shadow (but I have both of these already...), while Fantastic Heroes and Witchery doesn't fit the first** criterion.


*A Year Without D20 System was part of my New Year Resolutions!
**Yes, there are other criteria before deciding on a purchase, of course. I can't afford it otherwise...

Well, good news, the core rules are the duality dice - two d12s of different colors, one represents hope, one despair. If your hope die rolls higher, you have rolled with hope and one to your hope pool. If you roll higher on the despair die, you get a complication or the GM may add to the despair rating.

Classes are expies for D&D ones, Race are expies for D&D ones, and how character generation is handled is similar enough. I mean everything it does can be done in 5E D&D. Down to having Paladin and Bard classes.

It's nothing original (compared to things like Shadow of the Demon Lord, Numenara, etc.) One CAN do heroic fantasy without using D&D's format and style.

It doesn't really have a paladin class; it is divine, but is closer to angel treated as a class

you can enter a burner email address. I tend to go with bob@bob.com
I like to think some guy is losing his mind over all the spam I have sent his way over the years

Try using the DriveThruRPG link, instead, then.

Really. If anyone has questions, you should just download the beta and read; it's free. Form your own opinion.

 

[Stan]

After looking at the character sheet and browsing the rules, it feels like someone took the race/class/background/armor/levels of D&D, changed some things just to be different, and then bolted on some new mechanics. If you start with a medium complexity game and add rules this way, I think the result is likely to be a complex mess. The hp/hp threshold/stress mechanic feels like it would be annoying in play, slowing things down.

I do like the 2d12 die mechanic so far. As long as they avoid an collectability, the domain aspect sounds workable - I'd get rid of race/class/background and just pick domains.

Yea, this is just the beta but I feel like it will have the short life of many games - buzz resulting a good sales for an rpg, but a blip compared to D&D, complaints about difficulty in play soon popping up, with players a year later measuring in the hundreds. It has mildly famous people behind it so it will do better than most games but I have no interest at this point. But maybe they will excise the excess to show off the interesting components in the final product.