Gone and almost forgotten

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Eron the Relentless said:
[...]EZD6. I feel like we get these popcorn RPG even more quickly now. Something shows up in the zeitgeist and is going to be the next D&D killer then 5 years later people are like "wait, there was a MCDM [...]
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You're on to the standard here for Gone and Almost Forgotten: acronyms that #% of the pub doesn't recognize immediately.


And yes, even with the understanding that a lot of these games don't work as one shots, I use the local big convention as extremely rough measure: lot less FATE the last few times I've been. Star Trek, Alien get a few sessions. Mork Borg? Maybe Pirate and then the next big hack.

Really, I know a couple people working on the next Fate/Gurps/generic system and all I want to say is "Look, it doesn't matter if the subject doesn't interest you--find a way to bang out a Cthulhu supplement if you want your engine to have any legs..."
 
sharps54 said:
Pirate Borg is decent but it is the only one that appeals to me, even than I would change the tone from playing evil, selfish characters to a more heroic one.
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It's the one of the entire line that I both enjoy and really the only one (so far) I accept as a complete game in one book. It is very much Pirates of the Carribean RPG with the serial numbers (barely) filed off, and I would definitely play it as such.
 
Mosker said:
You're on to the standard here for Gone and Almost Forgotten: acronyms that #% of the pub doesn't recognize immediately.
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I hope I properly implied that the acronym was not worth knowing, and I'm somewhat ashamed that I know it.
 
Fate was pretty popular at one point. Now not as much imo.

There was lots of buzz generated around the Dresden Files then between some rather questionable remarks made by the owner of the company on Twitter which is sure to generate more interest in any of their rpgs. As well as a focus to other games it seems to fallen of the radar.

Beyond the Supernatural two major missing sourcebooks and Mechenoids Space. With increase in Science Fiction shows on TV and with Kevin’s seemingly inability to focus on one project at a time both feel like the rpg equivalent of vapourware.

Given that the first rpg feels incomplete and the second you think they would want to capitalize on the increased interest in sci-FI but no let’s focus on Teenage Mutant Ninja Tutles and Rifts instead.
 
ffilz said:
I have little to no interest in PBtA but I don’t care if others like it...
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My issue with PbtA gamers isn't that they like it. I actually couldn't care less if they do. It's more like D DeadBob said regarding -borg games in that the issue is their incessant need to tell you about it, even when you preemptively go out of your way to ask them not to. That's what makes them so damned intolerable. This gets amplified a million fold online. They're like the Jehovah's Witnesses of the gaming community, driven by deeply ingrained brainwashing to proselytize the glorious gospel of the Apocalypse.
 
To be fair, half the PbtA people I know hate the fanbase for the same reason. That and they feel that the original originality has led to a lot of lazy "just stick some playbooks and custom moves in and call it done" products. I made an analogy with the d20 glut and they didn't think it was inaccurate.
 
I as a (former) Fate player used to hate the online Fate "community" for much the same reason. So besides just not personally liking the rules, my issues tend to be with a certain type of fanatic than with the game engine themselves (though in the case of PbtA, as stated above, I also happen to not like the games). But I have said enough now on that topic.

Going back to the original premise of the thread, I think Barbarians of Lemuria also qualifies (another game I like very much). Though like some of the others I'm not sure it's "forgotten" quite yet. Only that it appears to be trending in that direction. Everywhen, in my opinion, did nothing to help in that regard.
 
Savage Schemer said:
My issue with PbtA gamers isn't that they like it. I actually couldn't care less if they do. It's more like D DeadBob said regarding -borg games in that the issue is their incessant need to tell you about it, even when you preemptively go out of your way to ask them not to. That's what makes them so damned intolerable. This gets amplified a million fold online. They're like the Jehovah's Witnesses of the gaming community, driven by deeply ingrained brainwashing to proselytize the glorious gospel of the Apocalypse.
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Do they proselytize any more than the “Mythras can do that” folks here? I guess maybe other forums are worse. That’s one reason I like it here. I know we have PBtA fans but they don’t drown out other conversation, nor do the Mythras fans.
 
ffilz said:
Do they proselytize any more than the “Mythras can do that” folks here? I guess maybe other forums are worse. That’s one reason I like it here. I know we have PBtA fans but they don’t drown out other conversation, nor do the Mythras fans.
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The only two people I have consistently seen on other forums with the, "Mythras can do that," message (unless the thread happens to be about Mythras) is Raleel and Bilharzia. And both of them are very tame / understated about that by comparison. Even on this forum, as you noted, it's not as prevalent as we like to joke about. So, if Mythras fans have gotten louder somewhere else, all I can say is they manage to leave a much smaller footprint than their PbtA brethren.
 
So what forums is the dominating PBtA conversation occurring on? I don’t read TBP much anymore but I don’t even see it there.
 
Dr Jack said:
Still a great game, but it really needed a second edition to clean up the jank and that doesn't seem likely now.
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At the risk of being positive about PbtA games (the horror), I would recommend Stonetop as a cleaned up and improved version of Dungeon World.

ffilz said:
Do they proselytize any more than the “Mythras can do that” folks here? I guess maybe other forums are worse. That’s one reason I like it here. I know we have PBtA fans but they don’t drown out other conversation, nor do the Mythras fans.
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I’m a fan of both PbtA and FitD. I tend to speak positively about them, though neither is by any means without flaw.

In my experience here on the Pub, these games tend to get shit on pretty often (as seen here) and anyone who pushes back on said shitting is seen as some kind of proselytizing obsessive. Then it’ll be pointed out how the PbtA/FitD fans are more vocal than the detractors around here.

It’s kind of a no win situation. Except in this case, in the context of this thread, all I can say is that I’m glad neither system seems to be slowing down, and instead seem to be becoming more and more mainstream (such as it is within this hobby). I hope that continues, and that those bothered by it just continue to seethe in their negativity.
 
Voros said:
I forgot that people are going around forcing people at gunpoint into PbtA and FitD games. Motherfuckers.
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ffilz said:
So what forums is the dominating PBtA conversation occurring on? I don’t read TBP much anymore but I don’t even see it there.
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Reddit and FB mainly in my experience. Here tends to be better in general about actually reading recommendations requests first.
 


I always liked how they ended the trailer with the gorilla soldier holding the rifle with two others flanking him with the sun setting in the background.

Who knows maybe the same company can do a Logan’s Run rpg.

“ There is Nooo Sanctuary only an old mannn!”
 
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hawkeyefan said:
At the risk of being positive about PbtA games (the horror), I would recommend Stonetop as a cleaned up and improved version of Dungeon World.



I’m a fan of both PbtA and FitD. I tend to speak positively about them, though neither is by any means without flaw.

In my experience here on the Pub, these games tend to get shit on pretty often (as seen here) and anyone who pushes back on said shitting is seen as some kind of proselytizing obsessive. Then it’ll be pointed out how the PbtA/FitD fans are more vocal than the detractors around here.

It’s kind of a no win situation. Except in this case, in the context of this thread, all I can say is that I’m glad neither system seems to be slowing down, and instead seem to be becoming more and more mainstream (such as it is within this hobby). I hope that continues, and that those bothered by it just continue to seethe in their negativity.
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Nice try. But outside this thread (where I've explicitly tried to articulate what makes PbtA and its fans so damned intolerable), I'd challenge you to find even one thread where, "anyone who pushes back on said shitting is seen as some kind of proselytizing obsessive." Most of the time we voice our distaste and move on, letting those who "push back" be.

As I have tried to state above, the issue isn't people who happen to like the game. I'd expand on that and say it's not even someone who speaks positively about it (though when they do I do personally start becoming suspicious) and then goes their own merry. To me the prime example I can think of is when someone (usually the OP of a thread) says, "I want to talk about X, but please let's not bring any PbtA games into this conversation." Then, sure as shit you'll find not one but dozens of responses that say, "I know you said you don't want to talk about PbtA games, but I want to bring up these PbtA games..." Given Reddits sheer posting volume, you can find thousands of such threads with little ease. I'm tempted to say I've literally never seen that not happen on that particular forum specifically, but even I admit that might be overstating it at least a little (though not by much). If I weren't literally about to get on a plane and disappear for a couple of weeks (I know, you guys will miss my shining personality - but it's okay, I'll be back, I hope) I'd happily trudge through all the various forums and provide examples just to prove the point.
 
Savage Schemer said:
Nice try. But outside this thread (where I've explicitly tried to articulate what makes PbtA and its fans so damned intolerable), I'd challenge you to find even one thread where, "anyone who pushes back on said shitting is seen as some kind of proselytizing obsessive." Most of the time we voice our distaste and move on, letting those who "push back" be.

As I have tried to state above, the issue isn't people who happen to like the game. I'd expand on that and say it's not even someone who speaks positively about it (though when they do I do personally start becoming suspicious) and then goes their own merry. To me the prime example I can think of is when someone (usually the OP of a thread) says, "I want to talk about X, but please let's not bring any PbtA games into this conversation." Then, sure as shit you'll find not one but dozens of responses that say, "I know you said you don't want to talk about PbtA games, but I want to bring up these PbtA games..." Given Reddits sheer posting volume, you can find thousands of such threads with little ease. I'm tempted to say I've literally never seen that not happen on that particular forum specifically, but even I admit that might be overstating it at least a little (though not by much). If I weren't literally about to get on a plane and disappear for a couple of weeks (I know, you guys will miss my shining personality - but it's okay, I'll be back, I hope) I'd happily trudge through all the various forums and provide examples just to prove the point.
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I would say the bolded is questionable based on your previous comments. And just the idea that you’d be suspicious of anyone who speaks positively about them says more about you than it does anyone else. Why be suspicious of anyone who enjoys a given game?

Beyond that, I’ll leave you to your opinion. I don’t want to change anyone’s mind about how they feel about a game so much as point out the pointless hate. All I can say is PbtA and FitD don’t appear to fit the criteria from the OP, and that’s great.
 
DeadBob said:
Similarly, I don't hear much about either Crypts & Things nor Beyond the Wall much anymore.
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Yes! Beyond the Wall is the kind of thing I am talking about, except it's actually more than 10 years old - can you believe how time flies?

You couldn't ask about starting a new fantasy campaign back then without someone bringing up Beyond the Wall. I did eventually get the pdf cheap (was it a Humble Bundle?) but it isn't my cup of tea and I am a little disappointed by the interior art and layout.
 
Eron the Relentless said:
I try not to use my dislike of a game system to inform my opinion on people that like that system. I hope others show me the same courtesy.
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Nah man. I have to be polite and professional in my day job, so I choose to be petty and bigoted in my hobby time.

I judge people by their choice of games, make inferences on their moral character, and decide if I want to spend any time in the same room as them.
 
arjunstc said:
Yes! Beyond the Wall is the kind of thing I am talking about, except it's actually more than 10 years old - can you believe how time flies?

You couldn't ask about starting a new fantasy campaign back then without someone bringing up Beyond the Wall. I did eventually get the pdf cheap (was it a Humble Bundle?) but it isn't my cup of tea and I am a little disappointed by the interior art and layout.
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On discords I am a member of Beyond the Wall is frequently brought up, I do think it has dropped in visibility but it isn’t forgotten.
 
ffilz said:
Do they proselytize any more than the “Mythras can do that” folks here? I guess maybe other forums are worse. That’s one reason I like it here. I know we have PBtA fans but they don’t drown out other conversation, nor do the Mythras fans.
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The difference I think is that the Mythras fans tend to present Mythras as a well designed game if you like that level of crunch. They don't sell Mythras as a game that will completely change how you think about roleplaying games or if that if you don't like it, you probably need to read the author's blog so that you can properly appreciate it and run the the right way. And I say this as someone with no interest in Mythras as all (Heretic! Heretic!).

A closer equivalent for this site might be how sandbox-style play is treated.

That said anyone who allows themselves to be put off a game (or book, movie, brand of tea) by the fandom is only doing a diservice to themselves.
 
Stars Without Number was hot a couple years ago and doesn't seem to come up now.

Star Cluster and other Flying Mice Games seemed to have faded out as has the author. It's a shame really Tools of Ignorance should have started a whole new trend of sports rpgs.
 
PbtA fans are no worse than people who insist old school D&D mechanics can do literally anything and are suitable for any game you want to run.

And I don't even LIKE PbtA (there are a few games that are exceptions, because they do something else really good, but overall I'm not a fan of the system).

(I do like FitD though).
 
Brander said:
I think there is a level of appreciation for Sine Nomine / Kevin Crawford here but very little active discussion.
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His stuff tends to always be in the Drivethrurpg top 100... If that's an indicator of gamer interest. I don't know. He did run another crowd-funding campaign for more offset copies of WWN, I think. So, somebody's still buying his stuff.
 
Brander said:
I think there is a level of appreciation for Sine Nomine / Kevin Crawford here but very little active discussion.
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It's really sad how under the radar his stuff goes. Cities Without Number relatively recently came out and is basically a more freeform system to make characters for SWN attached to a cyberpunk setting, meaning one book could be a supplement for the other.
 
I recently got into a game that seems to have very little online chatter, but while pieces of it are out of print it wasn't hard to get physical copies.

The game is Hackmaster 5E. It's an insanely brilliant marriage of AD&D and GURPS that somehow works. I didn't enjoy the first (4E) edition, and it kept me from looking at this game until I got into Aces & Eights when I was looking for a good western game. So I ended up working my way back to it after 15+ years of ignorantly disliking it. It's hard to precisely explain but it gels with my current mindset for maximum crunch D&D.

I bought most of the core set from Kenzer & Co, but I had to hunt elsewhere for Hacklopedia of Beasts 1 and the hardbound version of the GameMaster's Guide.
 
EmperorNorton said:
PbtA fans are no worse than people who insist old school D&D mechanics can do literally anything and are suitable for any game you want to run.

And I don't even LIKE PbtA (there are a few games that are exceptions, because they do something else really good, but overall I'm not a fan of the system).

(I do like FitD though).
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Oh, yeah, absolutely. Old school D&D mechanics are great if you want that exploration/combat and are pretty bad when you try a playstyle the game doesn't support. *Cough* Gangbusters B/X *Cough*. Much as I love Ghastly Affair I recognise that really the only things it actually takes from old D&D are class/level and procedural generation and one of the main reason it works is because it's dropped pretty much everything else.

The main differences I can see:

At least the "old D&D mechanics for everything" people don't do it while also claiming that system matters.

They don't have the influence to actually matter in the wider old school RPG scene. If someone comes up with a 'great' idea about converting Runequest to D&D they'll be met with at best confusion and at worst mockery.

I think a closer analogy is the 5e people who insist that it should do everything rather than just playing something that works better. Obviously it's not as big, but PbtA seems to have a similar effect on the narrative RPG scene. Love them or hate them, there was a certain level of creativity in the early Forge storygame design scene that seems to have been mostly pushed out in favour of PbtAing everything. It's not about the quality of PbtA per se; I think any game dominating its subsection of RPGs in that way is largely a bad thing if probably unavoidable.
 
Brander said:
I think there is a level of appreciation for Sine Nomine / Kevin Crawford here but very little active discussion.
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I was personally more interested in Kevin's material before everything he did started turning into a hybrid of Traveller and B/X. I can't help but fall into a, "hwy wouldn't I just use [Traveller or B/X] for this instead," sort of mentality when I read his books. I've also always thought the best value for his work was in the sandbox creation toolkit, moreso than his game systems. That said, Stars Without Number in particular seems to still get a lot of love anytime someone posts a thread asking for sci-fi recommendations.
 
Savage Schemer said:
I was personally more interested in Kevin's material before everything he did started turning into a hybrid of Traveller and B/X. I can't help but fall into a, "hwy wouldn't I just use [Traveller or B/X] for this instead," sort of mentality when I read his books. I've also always thought the best value for his work was in the sandbox creation toolkit, moreso than his game systems. That said, Stars Without Number in particular seems to still get a lot of love anytime someone posts a thread asking for sci-fi recommendations.
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Sine Nomine Games have the advantage, that they always have stuff that's very usable even if your not interesed in the mechanics themselves. Kevin also almost always releases a free version of his games. My favorite of his games is Scarlet Heroes, which had some very good rules for solo-play and a great setting.
 
Savage Schemer said:
I was personally more interested in Kevin's material before everything he did started turning into a hybrid of Traveller and B/X. I can't help but fall into a, "hwy wouldn't I just use [Traveller or B/X] for this instead," sort of mentality when I read his books. I've also always thought the best value for his work was in the sandbox creation toolkit, moreso than his game systems. That said, Stars Without Number in particular seems to still get a lot of love anytime someone posts a thread asking for sci-fi recommendations.
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When it comes to WWN or CWN, it's not really a comparison anymore. WWN has a "build your own class" system that brings it well past the scope of B/X, plus nuances in the rules and a kick-ass setting that the rules are specifically geared toward. It's not just fantasy-flavored SWN or a restatement of Scarlet Heroes (though some of the tools make an appearance)

CWN is a step past that where classes have been pretty much ejected all together. My immediate impression of it was "Ah, so there's no reason to play SWN's character-side system anymore, just use the tools and play CWN IN SPACE!" I suppose if you have a preference for Traveller you'd still use Traveller. I have played both (classic) Traveller and SWN and prefer SWN in most cases.
 
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