Moderation Criticisms

[TristramEvans]

People come from different places online and with different expectations of what acceptable discourse is and what role moderators should play.

Finding the balance between free speech and maintainig a friendly atmosphere is something we struggle with constantly. And everyone has a different threshold for what they find acceptible, aggressive, or crossing some invisible line.

We have resisted, from the beginning, the tact of accumulating more and more rules in an attempt to "force" people to get a long. I think most of us have seen where that leads. As Mods, we tend to try to only gently push things, and at most resort to a threadban or closing a thread that's got out of hand.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I'm not fond of the kind of pressuring people not to report stuff. I find that reports are pretty healthy, as long as someone isn't spamming them on every single post someone they don't like makes.

You see something you see as a problem, report it. Even if the mods do nothing it gives them more information about how people on the forums perceive certain things.

 

[TristramEvans]

I don't have any issue with reports.

If someone has an issue with a post, I'd rather they report it than engage and escalate things.

Even if it seems we don't act on a lot of reports, they do give us a clear picture over time and directs our attention to potential issues in threads.

The only thing I'd ask is that people explain WHY they are reporting something - sometimes we get reports and none of us can even figure out what is being reported.

 

[Paragon]

People come from different places online and with different expectations of what acceptable discourse is and what role moderators should play.

Finding the balance between free speech and maintainig a friendly atmosphere is something we struggle with constantly. And everyone has a different threshold for what they find acceptible, aggressive, or crossing some invisible line.

We have resisted, from the beginning, the tact of accumulating more and more rules in an attempt to "force" people to get a long. I think most of us have seen where that leads. As Mods, we tend to try to only gently push things, and at most resort to a threadban or closing a thread that's got out of hand.

That's all eminently reasonable from where I sit. As you say, the problem is one person's "vigorous debate" is another person's "aggressive and hostile response, and at some points along the line, one or the other of these posters isn't going to be compatible with the board culture. Of course there's no solid metric that tells you which is which.

 

[chuckdee]

I'm not fond of the kind of pressuring people not to report stuff. I find that reports are pretty healthy, as long as someone isn't spamming them on every single post someone they don't like makes.

The intent wasn't to pressure anyone to do anything. I just don't understand the mindset- especially to do it over and over with the same person reporting the same things for the same user. One of my favorite sayings, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." I come from the background of try to fix it once or twice, then make adjustments. So the mindset is pretty alien to me.

Take the statement for what it is or don't. I don't have to deal with the end result, so it's all idle conversation to me.

 

[Stevethulhu]

One of my favorite sayings, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."

I find it using how insanity and practise/training have have same definition.

 

[Stumpydave]

Ah but with practice and training the end result should change.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Ah but with practice and training the end result should change.

So you do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. The same as you do in the traditional definition of insanity.

 

[Stumpydave]

But with practice there should be change, even if its only incremental (the given definition of insanity is a bit reductive).
Plus I've just realised I'm basically overexplaining a throwaway joke - I will bow out now and leave you all to your banter,

 

[Stevethulhu]

But with practice there should be change, even if its only incremental (the given definition of insanity is a bit reductive).
Plus I've just realised I'm basically overexplaining a throwaway joke - I will bow out now and leave you all to your banter,

All I was doing was pointing out that a common saying isn't as straightforward as it first seems. After all, constant practise can be obsessive, monominded and even insane. Take Steve Vai and his 10 hour practise routines. Or Bruce Lee and his 8 hour training sessions.

Change, yes. Insanity? Quite possibly. Just a functional type of insanity that also gives spectacular results.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I don't have any issue with reports.

If someone has an issue with a post, I'd rather they report it than engage and escalate things.

Even if it seems we don't act on a lot of reports, they do give us a clear picture over time and directs our attention to potential issues in threads.

The only thing I'd ask is that people explain WHY they are reporting something - sometimes we get reports and none of us can even figure out what is being reported.

Agreed. The other thing I'd say is that while the vast majority of reports are resolved in 24 hours, they aren't always going to be. Sometimes a mod isn't sure and wants a second opinion or occasionally it needs an actual discussion.

There have been a few times when I've logged in to find both a report and a complaint the report is being ignored.

 

[Luca]

Let me just state this:

Tina Turner was fucking right.
Every city, town or village in the world ought to have its own Thunderdome.

 

[TristramEvans]

Let me just state this:

Tina Turner was fucking right.
Every city, town or village in the world ought to have its own Thunderdome.

We have one.

It's called The Rest of the Internet

 

[b9anders]

"There's this problem, that I can't prove, you just have to take my word for it, so no one can respond to or offer any contrary PoV, but I'm upset that my bringing it up isn't resulting in any change in forum policy and I feel like I'm being painted as the bad guy"

(sigh)

Sometimes I can empathize with the way RPGnet Mods run things...

 

[opaopajr]

 

[TristramEvans]

If I ever start whinging "this is a volunteer position", just shoot me

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I'm going to start a thread to ask for criticisms and then ban anybody who responds.

 

[Stumpydave]

Ban me Mother Hubbard!!!!!!

 

[Paragon]

I find it using how insanity and practise/training have have same definition.

That's because the full version of the saying is "Doing exactly the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." In practice, you're not doing exactly the same thing; you're iterating off what you did earlier.

 

[Endless Flight]

 

[Stevethulhu]

That's because the full version of the saying is "Doing exactly the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." In practice, you're not doing exactly the same thing; you're iterating off what you did earlier.

You sound like you never tried learning a Nuno Bettencourt solo. Or Suparinpei.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

View attachment 29738

 

[Paragon]

You sound like you never tried learning a Nuno Bettencourt solo. Or Suparinpei.

No, I pretty much stand by my statement. If you're literally doing the exact same thing, nothing is going to come out different, as you're not allowing conditions to change.

Anything that allows improvement is not doing the exact same thing.

 

[Stevethulhu]

No, I pretty much stand by my statement. If you're literally doing the exact same thing, nothing is going to come out different, as you're not allowing conditions to change.

Anything that allows improvement is not doing the exact same thing.

Building motor skills or muscle memory requires doing the exact same thing over and over for extended periods of time.

Eventually it pays off. But repetition is the mother of skill. See also, 10,000 hours to mastery.

 

[Paragon]

Building motor skills or muscle memory requires doing the exact same thing over and over for extended periods of time.

No, it really doesn't, or you wouldn't need to do it at all. It involves multiple error process that you're correcting for as you do it. Otherwise you wouldn't need to do so, as what you're doing is teaching yourself to avoid the failure states in the process by learning to consistently get the proper result.

Eventually it pays off. But repetition is the mother of skill. See also, 10,000 hours to mastery.

Repetition does not involve doing the exact same thing; it involves teaching yourself to do so. Once you can do it consistently, you first of all don't really need to do so any more (continued practice is based on not having flaws creep back in), and you won't get a different result, barring outside conditions you don't control.

 

[Fenris-77]

The blur between the moderation and martial arts threads here is making my head spin.

 

[Paragon]

Well, yes, the one thing you can definitely say about the Pub is its not afraid of thread drift.

 

[Endless Flight]

The blur between the moderation and martial arts threads here is making my head spin.

Are you trying to say TristramEvans Is the Sensei Kreese of moderators?

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[Ronin]

Soooo... is that the final design for the Airwolf smiley? A bit large, possibly disruptive, but I accept!

No seriously we NEED and Airwolf smiley!

 

[chuckdee]

So you do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. The same as you do in the traditional definition of insanity.

You don't do the same thing over and over again. You increase in skill each time, adjusting as your skill rate increases. Not the definition of same.

 

[chuckdee]

Are you trying to say TristramEvans Is the Sensei Kreese of moderators?

View attachment 29757

 

[Stumpydave]

We need a "Cast the Pub as Cobra Kai" thread.

 

[Stevethulhu]

We need a "Cast the Pub as Cobra Kai" thread.

Most of us would be Eli or Dmitri, pre haircut or hot girlfriend.

 

[Endless Flight]

I want to put out appreciation for my mod team. They each bring something to the table. I appreciate TristramEvans for his ability to communicate and I wish that I could do it that well! I consider him to basically be my equal. I appreciate Baulderstone for his thoughtfulness and rationality and he’s the bedrock for us. I appreciate Black Leaf for being the x-factor and for making us look at things from different perspectives, sometimes the opposite! He has definitely been a great addition. I also want to put a shout out to Apparition, who is not a mod but he gives us some good insights on what’s going on from day to day.

I have never thought we would ever be rudderless with this fine group.

 

[CRKrueger]

OK, I know it's taken us longer than anticipated to deliberate on this, there was a lot that we needed to discuss and some difficult questions regarding how we interpret the No Politics rule in regards to instances of bigotry in the RPG industry, and what crosses the line between talking about issues that are RPG-focused and wider social issues. Those of you unfortunate enough to participate in the thread in Site Discussion revolving around this (now removed with extreme prejudice), also witnessed the effect of lessening the stricture against politics on the forum, something that definitely reinforced our commitment to keeping The Pub as Politics-free as possible.

As always, our primary goal is to keep the Pub a friendly and welcoming place to everyone, and a respite from the tribalism, aggression, and fanaticism that currently dominates most online discourse, both on hobby-related forums and social media at large. This requires a degree of compromise from everyone (not of your ethics but your desire to voice your opinion) especially when issues arise that are incredibly important and deeply affect people's lives. At no point does the stricture against discussions around such topics diminish their import or carry the suggestion that they shouldn't be discussed. The Pub is simply not the venue for that; it serves a different, very specific purpose that we think is equally important.

In the course of the other thread we noted a shared concern among many posters, insofar as what the No Politics rule implies. On the one hand some are concerned that the desire for inclusivity means kowtowing to the shifting Overton Window of extreme ideologies represented on social media, on the other, the concern that No Politics means enforcing the "status quo" even at the expense of historically marginalized groups. In the years since The Pub's founding I think we have done a pretty good job of walking the line between these extremes, providing a place online that is overall welcoming and friendly to people of all creeds, colours, and orientations, without following social media trends.

This is not something we want to change, and since it isn't broken, we're not looking for "fixes" that will potentially change the forum's nature.

Rather what we want to address is specific circumstances like this thread, which is indicative of rare occasions where an event within the greater RPG community crosses the line between what is relevant to the hobby and social issues we would otherwise consider the discussion of which political in nature, and how to avoid the same mis-steps.

For anyone who is worried we are planning to institute exceptions to the No Politics rule, rest assured that our intention is quite the opposite, and if anyone was hoping that we were, the trainwreck in the Site Discussion forum this week should indicate the effect it would have on the forum.

So, we are instituting a new thread tag, "HOT"

This will apply to threads such as this, like the Zaklash thread from a while back, and other instances of off-site controversy. Like the MOD+ designation, this indicates threads subject to higher than normal moderation, and carries with it some specific rules and guidelines.

• First off, while we are not going to ignore or implicitly condone instances of racism, sexism, anti-LGBQ+ sentiments, or any other form of bigotry, we are going to insist that people avoid editorializing . A person's words, unfortunate and ignorant as they may be, can stand on their own, and posters can come to obvious conclusions without the need for anyone here to offer interpretations. Condemnation is fine and expected, but these shouldn't be used as an excuse to open the door to discussions of political (or politicized) issues. As mentioned, though there are important conversations and debates that may need to take place, The Pub is not the appropriate venue.

• Along those same lines, accusations of bigotry of any form, including calling someone a racist or homophobe, are serious charges in this day and age, carrying with them protentional grave and long-term effects on a personal and professional level, and should be considered to carry the same weight as an accusation of criminal activity (with the burden of demonstration beyond a reasonable doubt). For that reason we are going to insist on the following rule of thumb: "proof not allegations". If the proof is sufficiently damning it will speak for itself, and this avoids the pitfalls of simply repeating accusations encountered online or making suppositions that invite argument or disbelief.

• Additionally, a controversy revolving around one person in the hobby is not an open invitation or free-for-all to assume guilt by association or to extend the discussion to other targets. During the Zaklash, people took that as an opportunity to attacks former associates such as Mearls, and for one poster to even introduce their own (very suspect) list of "targets", playing upon the anger and outrage of Zak's actions to try and engender aggression against others. In the course of the nuTSR controversy, the OSR in general, and Gary Gygax specifically were brought into the conversation. This "spillover" is something we want to avoid in the future. These threads should not be looked upon as an opportunity to air unrelated grievances or share dirty laundry, as this will only perpetuate and exacerbate already tense situations. It also invites more accusations without proof. Though we appreciate there is an important arguments that can be made regarding the wider culture and influences that surround bigoted opinions, again, The Pub is simply not the place that those can meaningfully or productively take place.

And just in general, we are going to be coming down harder on political linedancing. If you know something is too close to politics, or will potentially be interpreted as political, it is better to say nothing than resort to any vague allusions or make statements to the effect of "I'd like to talk about THIS, but it would be political"

Moreover, we want to remind people that if you encounter what you think is an example of politics intruding on a conversation, either blatantly or through linedancing, or an instance that seems like someone is expressing bigotry or making underhanded attacks that affect a group, please either report it or start a conversation with a Mod rather than engaging. We are always willing to listen to various points of view, and while we may not always act on or resolve situations in a way that will please everyone, it is much more productive than the alternative.

Finally, in the wake of the last few days, I would like to make a general plea for everyone to try hard to make an assumption of good faith in your fellow posters. The Pub has been a friendly place for a long time, and it's been a rare opportunity in this day and age for people of very diverse viewpoints and beliefs to engage in a way that focuses on what we have in common, rather than what divides us.

I’m not sure you guys know what you’ve done here.

I’m afraid what you’ve essentially done is merely shift all the rancorous political debate to “What is the level of Proof required to prove someone an X?” and assigning yourselves as the ones who have to decide. Do you want that job?

This place isn’t an RPG news site, there’s several of those who specialize in it. People don’t come here for the latest news and the hot pulse of the RPG industry. They come here to discuss RPGs without having to deal with political fights derailing everything.

Hell, just have a thread entitled Current Controversies.
Post 1- Bob Bledsaw is in the news for what he said, go find out about it and discuss it elsewhere.
Post 2 - Ernie Gygax interview under scrutiny, TSR’s Twitter is also involved, go find out about it and discuss it elsewhere.
No links, no memes, no editorialising, no back door politics, therefore no fights.

Mind-numbingly simple, and most importantly, it actually adheres to the No Politics policy, unlike what you’re planning to do.

 

[TristramEvans]

I’m not sure you guys know what you’ve done here.

I’m afraid what you’ve essentially done is merely shift all the rancorous political debate to “What is the level of Proof required to prove someone an X?” and assigning yourselves as the ones who have to decide. Do you want that job?

We won't be deciding anything, or casting any judgements besides personal ones. What we've said is people can post the proof, without the editorialization or interpretations. Everyone reading will be able to decide for themselves, and there won't be any Official Pub Opinions that anyone will be expected to voice or agree with.

This place isn’t an RPG news site, there’s several of those who specialize in it. People don’t come here for the latest news and the hot pulse of the RPG industry. They come here to discuss RPGs without having to deal with political fights derailing everything.

That's how it's going to continue.

Hell, just have a thread entitled Current Controversies.
Post 1- Bob Bledsaw is in the news for what he said, go find out about it and discuss it elsewhere.
Post 2 - Ernie Gygax interview under scrutiny, TSR’s Twitter is also involved, go find out about it and discuss it elsewhere.
No links, no memes, no editorialising, no back door politics, therefore no fights.

Mind-numbingly simple, and most importantly, it actually adheres to the No Politics policy, unlike what you’re planning to do.

I think that would invite people seeking out and bringing up controversies that otherwise would have never made their way here. Two threads over the course of three years is far more to my liking, ones that we can eventually shut down when they've run their course.

 

[CRKrueger]

We won't be deciding anything, or casting any judgements besides personal ones. What we've said is people can post the proof, without the editorialization or interpretations. Everyone reading will be able to decide for themselves, and there won't be any Official Pub Opinions that anyone will be expected to voice or agree with.

Ah ok, it sounded like you might be saying, “Well, X is obviously a Bigot (which seems obvious), so talking about him being a Bigot isn’t politics so not off limits.”

What you just said makes sense.

 

[Endless Flight]

Ghost Whistler has been permanently banned for various reasons including lack of respect and common courtesy to/for fellow posters and ignoring moderation requests.

 

[Silent Green]

Er… have you already had a discussion on the “mod voice” colour? Otherwise I'd have to confess that I had a pretty hard time reading that light blue text.